Re: [EVDL] How I learned to stop worrying and love autonomous-driving & wireless-charging

[Dennis Miles via EV]

Interesting comments David, The Japanese are a very polite people in public
and the vending machines allow anonymity when a personal product is needed
such a change of underwear, as well as a conveniently  purchased snack in
an off hour.  The gasoline service station is self-service in Ohio, but in
Oregon and New Jersey you dare not touch the pump ! Fire safety laws
prohibit self service.  As for the Taxi, and safety, in many regions
(Including mine - Florida,) the taxi drivers have to have a "Hack Drivers
License" and that is issued by the local police after a criminal background
check along with a regular drivers license. I tell all my acquaintances
that are uncomfortable going home at night, "Call a Taxi, the driver is
responsible for your safety and his reputation has been verified by the
city court. You can't find a more validated safe escort home at any time
day or night." And the driver is in constant contact with the dispatcher (I
had a problem one night and told my dispatcher, five taxi drivers came to
my rescue within three minutes, and 45 minutes later the police arrived to
take the problem , a sourly drunk, off to jail on a drunk and disorderly
charge.)  Will a computer driven car do that?? NO !  I trust the Taxi
drivers, not "Robot-cars" who have only been safely allowed to drive on
test tracks or lightly traveled roadways. I have seen remotely controlled
locomotives in the railway yards sorting out cars and the rail-worker's
unions say they are unsafe even under human monitoring...so they are
limited to walking speed. Those systems are not subject to cross traffic
because they are on rails. How complex if they had to be steered and avoid
collisions with cross traffic at 50 miles per hour.  ;^)

*Dennis Lee Miles *

*Director   **E.V.T.I. Inc.*

*E-Mail:*  *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* 

   *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913*

Dade City, Florida 33523

 USA




On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 9:31 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 22 May 2014 at 18:37, Dennis Miles via EV wrote:
>
> > I have lived in many cities around the this world from New York to Tokyo
> > and they all had autonomous vehicles for the drunkards and transients
> > unfamiliar with their city.  We called them TAXIs.
>
> Interesting that you mention Tokyo.  I think (but haven't dug up
> corroboration because I'm lazy ;-) that it was in Japan that one of the
> defining trends of our time emerged.  That trend is an increasing desire
> among consumers to get the products they want WITHOUT interacting with
> sales
> and service people.
>
> For years, Japan has had vending machines offering beer and sake, fried
> chicken, crepes, ice cream, fresh bananas and lettuce, eggs, rice, and
> bread.  Vending machines there even dispense underwear for women, and
> neckties for men.  There are also some fairly icky machine-vended products
> for men, but I think I'll stop here.
>
> Japanese, I would argue, are the world's most enthusiastic users of
> anonymous, non-interactive purchasing.
>
> But they're not alone; the trend has gone worldwide.  Self-service filling
> stations have been around so long that most younger EVDLers probably don't
> even remember full service filling stations. (Some European stations are
> partly or totally unstaffed.)   Redbox has replaced the corner video rental
> store.  Touchscreen ordering and payment is taking over at some fast food
> eateries, including hundreds of McDonalds restaurants in Europe.
> Supermarkets and big-box stores have self service checkouts.
>
> The upshot is that we have an entire generation of kids growing up for whom
> anonymous, non-interactive purchasing will be the norm.  If they don't
> particularly care to buy from human cashiers, why would they want to ride
> with human taxi drivers?
>
> Meanwhile, I know women who now are afraid to take a taxicab because
> they've
> heard or read stories of women being attacked in cabs.  They'd go for self-
> driving taxis in a second.
>
> Maybe the whole idea of self-driving cars strikes some folks as over-the-
> top.  Maybe it is.  And yet I don't think EV developers can ignore them.
>  If
> it turns out that self-driving cars are really what people want, and if
> they're willing to pay the price for the convenience, monetarily and
> perhaps
> in privacy, then we'd be foolish not to plan for self-driving cars with
> electric drive.
>
> If nothing else, it's one way to ease range anxiety.  If the car knows the
> way to the train station, it can also tell you whether it has enough charge
> to get there and back, no?  And if not, it can take you to the nearest
> public charging station, where it can ingest just enough electricity to
> accomplish your mission.
>
> David Roden
> EVDL Administrator
> http://www.evdl.org/
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] How I learned to stop worrying and love autonomous-driving & wireless-charging

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 22 May 2014 at 18:37, Dennis Miles via EV wrote:

> I have lived in many cities around the this world from New York to Tokyo
> and they all had autonomous vehicles for the drunkards and transients
> unfamiliar with their city.  We called them TAXIs.

Interesting that you mention Tokyo.  I think (but haven't dug up 
corroboration because I'm lazy ;-) that it was in Japan that one of the 
defining trends of our time emerged.  That trend is an increasing desire 
among consumers to get the products they want WITHOUT interacting with sales 
and service people. 

For years, Japan has had vending machines offering beer and sake, fried 
chicken, crepes, ice cream, fresh bananas and lettuce, eggs, rice, and 
bread.  Vending machines there even dispense underwear for women, and 
neckties for men.  There are also some fairly icky machine-vended products 
for men, but I think I'll stop here.

Japanese, I would argue, are the world's most enthusiastic users of 
anonymous, non-interactive purchasing.

But they're not alone; the trend has gone worldwide.  Self-service filling 
stations have been around so long that most younger EVDLers probably don't 
even remember full service filling stations. (Some European stations are 
partly or totally unstaffed.)   Redbox has replaced the corner video rental 
store.  Touchscreen ordering and payment is taking over at some fast food 
eateries, including hundreds of McDonalds restaurants in Europe.  
Supermarkets and big-box stores have self service checkouts.  

The upshot is that we have an entire generation of kids growing up for whom 
anonymous, non-interactive purchasing will be the norm.  If they don't 
particularly care to buy from human cashiers, why would they want to ride 
with human taxi drivers?

Meanwhile, I know women who now are afraid to take a taxicab because they've 
heard or read stories of women being attacked in cabs.  They'd go for self-
driving taxis in a second.  

Maybe the whole idea of self-driving cars strikes some folks as over-the-
top.  Maybe it is.  And yet I don't think EV developers can ignore them.  If 
it turns out that self-driving cars are really what people want, and if 
they're willing to pay the price for the convenience, monetarily and perhaps 
in privacy, then we'd be foolish not to plan for self-driving cars with 
electric drive.  

If nothing else, it's one way to ease range anxiety.  If the car knows the 
way to the train station, it can also tell you whether it has enough charge 
to get there and back, no?  And if not, it can take you to the nearest 
public charging station, where it can ingest just enough electricity to 
accomplish your mission.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Re: [EVDL] How I learned to stop worrying and love autonomous-driving & wireless-charging

[Dennis Miles via EV]

I have lived in many cities around the this world from New York to Tokyo
and they all had autonomous vehicles for the drunkards and transients
unfamiliar with their city.  We called them TAXIs.  I drove a taxi for
three years, and you just had to tell me where you wanted to go and I
picked the best and shortest route, always driving safely and smoothly like
a limousine.  I responded instantly to voice commands, and often passengers
would fall asleep in my cab confident in my driving skills.

*Dennis Lee Miles *

*Director   **E.V.T.I. Inc.*

*E-Mail:*  *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* 

   *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913*

Dade City, Florida 33523

 USA




On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 5:27 PM, Cal Frye via EV  wrote:

> Jan, I think there are possibilities you've not considered.
>
> I don't think I could teach a horse to manage a comprehensive pub crawl,
> but Google makes it easy!
> I, for one, welcome our benevolent overlords from Mountain View...
>
> - Cal Frye
>
> > Jan Steinman via EV <mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>
> > May 22, 2014 5:04 PM
> >
> > Yes! They'll be able to get a drunken -- or even asleep -- person home
> > from the pub with no intervention!
> >
> > They will be run on 100% solar power, which they will harvest
> > themselves. The major by-product will be a highly uniform organic
> > fertilizer.
> >
> > But it's been done before, and will be done again, possibly sooner
> > than 2050. It's called the "horse cart."
> >
> > Reminds me of another list I was on, and the technophiles were out in
> > full force.
> >
> > "In the future," they said, "seawater will be desalinized by nuclear
> > fusion, and transported thousands of kilometres by solar power, where
> > it will be automatically applied to crops"
> >
> > "It's been done before," someone answered, "It's called 'rain.'"
> >
> >  Survival and prosperity both hinge on how much sunlight energy is
> > under your control. -- Thom Hartmann
> >  Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 
> >
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] How I learned to stop worrying and love autonomous-driving & wireless-charging

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

On May 22, 2014, at 1:34 AM, Martin WINLOW via EV  wrote:

> As for H2 FCVs -for anything but a very small section of the market, it is a 
> totally unworkable and completely insane idea - but Big Oil and their 
> political allies will still try to force it down our throats.

I'd be really interested to hear where you've seen "Big Oil" ever trying to 
"force [FCEVs] down our throats." Last I heard, except for Shell, they mainly 
see them as a threat to their business.
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NEW Dual Carbon Battery from POWER JAPAN PLUS

[John Lindsay via EV]

I've recently had the chance to take a close look at RedFlow in Australia. They 
have a zinc bromine flow battery.  It has electrodes made of carbon but the 
electrolyte is zinc bromide. The battery isn't designed for vehicle use and 
isn't certified for that. It can deliver 3KW continuously at 60 volts so that's 
50 amps. There is some scope for surges and averaging out but that modest peak 
is why you haven't seen many flow batteries in EVs. 

John Lindsay

> On 21 May 2014, at 6:21 pm, ralph bagwell via EV  wrote:
> 
> I have wondered why the vanadium redox "battery" has not become widely used
> - yep it uses liquids but gasoline is liquid- if not for vehicles then
> solar energy storage .The membrane used is expensive but you don't need
> much .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Geoff Pullinger via EV
> wrote:
> 
>>> On 5/21/2014 10:33 AM, Steven Lough via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sounds almost too good to be true.  But like in decades Past,
>>> When I can go out and buy a 16 - 20 KWH pack
>>> I will then TEST it, and then Believe...
>>> 
>>> ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OJwZ9uEpJOo )
>>> 
>>> In order that we may get around the whole 'new battery technology'
>> vaporware issue ( and get some decent power for ev's ) we need something
>> that is not a battery.  I don't know what that would be but the whole idea
>> of storing electricity in some chemical and then extracting it again seems
>> to generate more problems and less batteries.
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Re: [EVDL] How I learned to stop worrying and love autonomous-driving & wireless-charging

[Cal Frye via EV]

Jan, I think there are possibilities you've not considered.

I don't think I could teach a horse to manage a comprehensive pub crawl,
but Google makes it easy!
I, for one, welcome our benevolent overlords from Mountain View...

- Cal Frye

> Jan Steinman via EV <mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>
> May 22, 2014 5:04 PM
>
> Yes! They'll be able to get a drunken -- or even asleep -- person home
> from the pub with no intervention!
>
> They will be run on 100% solar power, which they will harvest
> themselves. The major by-product will be a highly uniform organic
> fertilizer.
>
> But it's been done before, and will be done again, possibly sooner
> than 2050. It's called the "horse cart."
>
> Reminds me of another list I was on, and the technophiles were out in
> full force.
>
> "In the future," they said, "seawater will be desalinized by nuclear
> fusion, and transported thousands of kilometres by solar power, where
> it will be automatically applied to crops"
>
> "It's been done before," someone answered, "It's called 'rain.'"
>
>  Survival and prosperity both hinge on how much sunlight energy is
> under your control. -- Thom Hartmann
>  Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 
>
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] How I learned to stop worrying and love autonomous-driving & wireless-charging

[Jan Steinman via EV]

> From: Martin WINLOW via EV 
> 
> Folks can rail against autonomous vehicles (AVs) all they want but come 2050 
> most vehicles on the road will be AVs.

Yes! They'll be able to get a drunken -- or even asleep -- person home from the 
pub with no intervention!

They will be run on 100% solar power, which they will harvest themselves. The 
major by-product will be a highly uniform organic fertilizer.

But it's been done before, and will be done again, possibly sooner than 2050. 
It's called the "horse cart."

Reminds me of another list I was on, and the technophiles were out in full 
force.

"In the future," they said, "seawater will be desalinized by nuclear fusion, 
and transported thousands of kilometres by solar power, where it will be 
automatically applied to crops"

"It's been done before," someone answered, "It's called 'rain.'"

 Survival and prosperity both hinge on how much sunlight energy is under 
your control. -- Thom Hartmann
 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 

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Re: [EVDL] EV-tragedy: Leaf drags & crushes driver to death on A417 blackspot

[Dennis Miles via EV]

Please do not consider this the fault of the vehicle. The driver was
pushing it up a hill alone. That "ALONE" part is always risky. He allowed
it to stray into the curb. He pushed it backwards away from the curb. The
vehicle started rolling down the hill. Then came the error in judgment, he
attempted to stop it by pushing it upwards from the downhill end. He would
have stopped it had he used the vehicle's brakes, but he did not, and the
inertia was to much to with his muscles, he was overcome, and he was rolled
under the vehicle and crushed. In my 60 years of driving I have pushed many
cars. Stopping a car is almost impossible. I have pulled with all my
strength on the bumper and found myself sliding my feet on dry pavement. I
have found ONLY use of the BRAKES is certain, and the only safe alternative
is reaching in the driver's window and steering toward a barrier, or making
a "U" turn if traffic permits to slow the car. NEVER PLACE YOURSELF IN THE
PATH OF A CAR, AND PRESUME YOU CAN STOP IT, YOU CAN NOT !

*Dennis Lee Miles *

*Director   **E.V.T.I. Inc.*

*E-Mail:*  *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* 

   *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913*

Dade City, Florida 33523

 USA




On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 5:28 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
> % Pull over & get help, do not try to resolve issues yourself on busy roads
> %
>
>
> http://www.gloucestershireecho.co.uk/Roads-police-Dial-999-break-A417-Crickley-Hill/story-21124294-detail/story.html
> Roads police: Dial 999 if you break down on A417 Crickley Hill or if you
> see
> someone broken down
> By Gloucestershire Echo  May 22, 2014
>
> [image
>
> http://www.gloucestershireecho.co.uk/images/localworld/ugc-images/276334/Article/images/21124294/6136601-large.jpg
> (ice traveling on) The A417 at Crickley Hill in Gloucestershire
> ]
>
> MOTORISTS have been warned not to put their lives in danger by trying to
> fix
> broken-down vehicles on the roadside following a death near one of
> Gloucestershire's worst accident blackspots.
>
> Gloucestershire police used Twitter to advise motorists to dial 999 if they
> broke down, rather than try to fix problems with their vehicles on the
> roadside.
>
> It follows the inquest last week into the death of dad-of-two Yuri
> Gaidakov,
> from Cheltenham, who was crushed by his own car on the A417 on Crickley
> Hill
> in February.
>
> A police spokesman tweeted: "Please can we ask if you break down, or see
> someone who has broken down on Crickley Hill, that you call us first. 999
> is
> ok. We are here to help."
>
>
> The inquest was told that Mr Gaidakov's Nissan Leaf eco car had run out of
> power near the Cold Slad turning and he got out of the car to try to push
> it
> up the hill to the junction, which was just metres away.
>
> The vehicle got stuck against the side of the kerb, but when the computer
> analyst went to the front to try to push it backwards, disaster struck.
>
> The electric car started rolling down the hill towards passing traffic.
>
> Mr Gaidakov, who was travelling with his teenage son, panicked and ran to
> the back of the car to stop it.
>
> He was dragged underneath the eco-vehicle, the weight of the car crushing
> him to death.
>
>
> The Gloucestershire police tweet added: "Our thoughts are with his family."
>
> Garry Handley, Gloucestershire Road Safety Partnership manager said there
> were steps drivers could take to make themselves safe in the event of a
> breakdown.
>
> He said: "Although I can't comment on this particular tragic case, the best
> advice for drivers is to be prepared for the unexpected.
>
> "A mechanical breakdown can happen at any time and the priority is to stay
> safe and make sure other road users aren't put at risk.
>
> "Only try to move your car off the road if it is completely safe and don't
> attempt even the most simple repairs if it puts you in any danger.
>
> "There are also ways to make yourself clearer to other vehicles such as
> using hazard warning lights if your car is causing an obstruction and
> having
> fluorescent clothing in the boot so you can be spotted in poor visibility."
> [(c) 2014 Local World]
>
>
>
>
> For all EVLN posts use:
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-tragedy-Leaf-drags-crushes-driver-to-death-on-A417-blackspot-tp4669600.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota Drops RAV4-EV-gen2, shifting to h2

[Martin WINLOW via EV]

Roland,

I do hope you are not advocating the use of highly toxic and horribly dangerous 
Potassium hydroxide be carried around in cars as an alternative to (equally as 
dangerous and impractical) H2?  Any collision would make a Tesla fire look like 
cap gun going off in comparison.  Thank God these chemicals are so expensive!

Regards, Martin.
]]
On 21 May 2014, at 16:12, Roland via EV wrote:

> You do not need a H2 tank to hold hydrogen.  You do need a standard tank to 
> hold KOH or other type of chemicals that has H2 to H4 components which is 
> normally for running a standby generator or a fuel cell that can generated up 
> to 50kw. 
> 
> The inventor of the alkaline battery also invented this type of fuel cell 
> system.  The military has been using this type of system to instead of a 
> noisy field generator.  
> 
> The problem is, the fuel cost is about $15.00 a gallon in a 55 gallon 
> container which I could get locally from a chemical plant.  The cost comes 
> down if you get the fuel in 5000 gallons or is cheaper in the 20,000 gallons 
> tanks.  
> 
> H2SO4 which is used in lead acid batteries cost about $15.00 per quart 
> containers which is pure 18 specific gravity. 
> 
> Roland 
>  - Original Message - 
>  From: Michael Ross via EV 
>  To: Cor van de Water ; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
> List 
>  Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 8:41 AM
>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota Drops RAV4-EV-gen2, shifting to h2
> 
> 
>  Toyota is as big a business as there is, along side the oil industry.  I
>  think they are just getting in bed with their buds.
> 
>  It is all about the gas station infrastructure - many see it as too
>  ingrained to be avoidable - in that context H2 makes sense as a clean fuel
>  if you don't look too close.  There is a lot of money to be made if they
>  are right, and Toyota probably thinks they and the oil companies, et al.,
>  can make it right.
> 
>  I think Musk simply questions basic assumptions like this and moves on.
>   Then suddenly before the entrenched know what has hit them, there is a
>  completely new, potentially viable, very different option that cuts them
>  out.
> 
>  Now is when we really start to see sparks fly.
> 
> 
>  On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:07 AM, Cor van de Water via EV
>  wrote:
> 
>> H2 is (as we all know) a dead end until significant innovations are made
>> and its energy efficiency remains questionable (read: the fuel is likely
>> to remain non-competitive) no matter how much the fuel cell gets
>> innovated.
>> BTW, FCV is still an electric vehicle. It should be called FCEV. Only
>> the energy storage is in H2 instead of in batteries, but you need a fuel
>> cell to get the power out again so instead of just a controller to tap
>> into the battery power, you need the series of H2 tank - fuel cell -
>> (often intermediate battery storage for power peaks and for regen
>> braking) - controller - electric motor.
>> 
>> So, when (probably not "if") the FCV line fails, just rip out the
>> clumsy fuel cell setup and H2 tank, pop in a good battery bank and
>> off you go in your new EV.
>> 
>> Cor van de Water
>> Chief Scientist
>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>> Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: 
>> http://www.cvandewater.info
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Chris Tromley
>> via EV
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 3:59 AM
>> To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota Drops RAV4-EV-gen2, shifting to h2
>> 
>> Without wanting to get into a detailed FCV discussion here, I'm puzzled.
>> 
>> 1.  Last I heard a practical FCV was not possible until some Brand New
>> Stuff was invented, and no one knew if/how/when that would happen.
>> 2.  Last I heard there was no way to create H2 that was anywhere near as
>> efficient as just filling a battery with the same energy.
>> 3.  Last I heard FCV fueling infrastructure was wildly more expensive
>> than
>> EV fueling infrastructure.
>> 
>> I'm trying to understand the business case for pursuing FCVs instead of
>> the
>> seemingly more promising path of furthering advanced lithium
>> chemistries.
>> The only plausible reason to pursue FCVs that I can think of is that
>> it's
>> too easy for an upstart manufacturer (like that pesky Tesla) to become
>> an
>> EV manufacturer.  The fact that FCVs are inherently more complex and
>> require far more in-house R&D are barriers to entry for new players.
>> But
>> even that would require winning the hearts and minds of the driving
>> public,
>> and I don't see how the user experience is significantly better.  Heck,
>> I
>> don't see how you could make an FCV that would gain more market
>> acceptance
>> than Toyota's ow

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota Drops RAV4-EV-gen2, shifting to h2

[Martin WINLOW via EV]

On 21 May 2014, at 17:41, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

> See below for a brief reply.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On May 21, 2014, at 3:58 AM, Chris Tromley via EV  wrote:
> 
>> Without wanting to get into a detailed FCV discussion here, I'm puzzled.
>> 
>> 1.  Last I heard a practical FCV was not possible until some Brand New
>> Stuff was invented, and no one knew if/how/when that would happen.
> 
> What time period was this? If recently, you should consider that the source 
> was ill-informed.

Mark - if you seriously think that "practical" includes a price of over $100k 
for a family sized saloon with limited range that you can only fill up at half 
a dozen locations in the whole of continental USA, then you do yourself a 
disservice.

> 
> 
>> 2.  Last I heard there was no way to create H2 that was anywhere near as
>> efficient as just filling a battery with the same energy.
> 
> Not sure why you want to compare efficiency of filling a battery to anything.

*Because* (real) EVs are here and available *now* as is 95% of the recharging 
infrastructure (ie people's homes) and as such EVs are the only realistic 
alternative to the ICEV!

> 
> 
>> 3.  Last I heard FCV fueling infrastructure was wildly more expensive than
>> EV fueling infrastructure.
> 
> I don't know the cost of EV fueling infrastructure or how best to compare 
> (cost per car per day of infrastructure?), but H2fueling infrastructure is 
> mostly very expensive. These have been built as one-off stations. The most 
> recent bids to CEC show costs coming down, and people thinking in terms of 
> multiple stations to further bring costs down.
> 


Well I do, and even Toyota say that they cost a cool million bucks a pop.  You 
do the maths.  *Or*... we can all just do it home without *any* addition 
infrastructure expense at all (although it would be very helpful if the 
government ponied up for 1/100th of the cost of an H2 infrastructure to pay for 
a proper rapid charge one)!

> 
>> 
>> I'm trying to understand the business case for pursuing FCVs instead of the
>> seemingly more promising path of furthering advanced lithium chemistries.
> 
> There are a number of chemistries being looked at, and IMO you shouldn't 
> think if this as either/or. Batteries development has come a long way, and 
> should continue, even if you think that FCEV will be dominant in the future.  
> Batteries are important in FCEVs, and I would guess that the sizing of 
> batteries v. fuel cells will change over time based on technology, costs and 
> the application. Perhaps it would be better to think of FCEVs as hybrids.
> 
> 

FC development will always be playing catch up with battery technology.  Its 
been that way for ever and, given the complexity of FC technology and its awful 
comparative efficiency, it probably always will be.


>> The only plausible reason to pursue FCVs that I can think of is that it's
>> too easy for an upstart manufacturer (like that pesky Tesla) to become an
>> EV manufacturer.  The fact that FCVs are inherently more complex and
>> require far more in-house R&D are barriers to entry for new players.  But
>> even that would require winning the hearts and minds of the driving public,
>> and I don't see how the user experience is significantly better.  Heck, I
>> don't see how you could make an FCV that would gain more market acceptance
>> than Toyota's own hybrids.
> 
> I don't agree with most of the above.

I'm thinking you are probably pretty much on your own there, then!

> 
>> 
>> I'm trying hard to make sense of this.  Where's the return for Toyota?  Is
>> there something new in FCV development that I missed?
> 
> Only Toyota knows why, but given that most OEMs are moving in this direction 
> either partially or fully seems to point to the need to question your 
> assumptions.
> 
> But maybe it's as simple as "consumer didn't buy them...end of story." I 
> don't think it's that simple, but it's possible. I was surprised, too, about 
> the RAV4-EV, but it's been clear for awhile that Toyota was going into FCEVs 
> in a big way.
> 
> 

Toyota and other big auto makers are betting on FCVs to perpetuate the status 
quo ie controlling the vehicle market by tying car owners to a network of 
refuelling stations whose products are ruthlessly price controlled... by the 
car makers themselves (in cahoots with Big Oil, of course... and lets not 
forget the politicians).  Where on Earth is there any money for them with EVs?  
They are virtually maintenance free and don't use any oil!  On the other hand 
you can sell FCVs which, whilst they don't use oil in the conventional sense, 
still use a fossil fuel to power (98% of H2 is made from natural gas).  It 
isn't exactly rocket science!  MW

> 
>> 
>> Chris
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 4:44 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2014/05/toyota-pulling-plug-on-rav4-ev/
>>> Toyota Pulling Plug on RAV4-EV
>>> by Paul A. Eisenstein  May 16, 2014
>>> 
>>>

[EVDL] EV-tragedy: Leaf drags & crushes driver to death on A417 blackspot

[brucedp5 via EV]

% Pull over & get help, do not try to resolve issues yourself on busy roads
%

http://www.gloucestershireecho.co.uk/Roads-police-Dial-999-break-A417-Crickley-Hill/story-21124294-detail/story.html
Roads police: Dial 999 if you break down on A417 Crickley Hill or if you see
someone broken down
By Gloucestershire Echo  May 22, 2014

[image  
http://www.gloucestershireecho.co.uk/images/localworld/ugc-images/276334/Article/images/21124294/6136601-large.jpg
(ice traveling on) The A417 at Crickley Hill in Gloucestershire
]

MOTORISTS have been warned not to put their lives in danger by trying to fix
broken-down vehicles on the roadside following a death near one of
Gloucestershire’s worst accident blackspots.

Gloucestershire police used Twitter to advise motorists to dial 999 if they
broke down, rather than try to fix problems with their vehicles on the
roadside.

It follows the inquest last week into the death of dad-of-two Yuri Gaidakov,
from Cheltenham, who was crushed by his own car on the A417 on Crickley Hill
in February.

A police spokesman tweeted: “Please can we ask if you break down, or see
someone who has broken down on Crickley Hill, that you call us first. 999 is
ok. We are here to help.”


The inquest was told that Mr Gaidakov’s Nissan Leaf eco car had run out of
power near the Cold Slad turning and he got out of the car to try to push it
up the hill to the junction, which was just metres away.

The vehicle got stuck against the side of the kerb, but when the computer
analyst went to the front to try to push it backwards, disaster struck.

The electric car started rolling down the hill towards passing traffic.

Mr Gaidakov, who was travelling with his teenage son, panicked and ran to
the back of the car to stop it.

He was dragged underneath the eco-vehicle, the weight of the car crushing
him to death.


The Gloucestershire police tweet added: “Our thoughts are with his family.”

Garry Handley, Gloucestershire Road Safety Partnership manager said there
were steps drivers could take to make themselves safe in the event of a
breakdown.

He said: “Although I can’t comment on this particular tragic case, the best
advice for drivers is to be prepared for the unexpected.

“A mechanical breakdown can happen at any time and the priority is to stay
safe and make sure other road users aren’t put at risk.

“Only try to move your car off the road if it is completely safe and don’t
attempt even the most simple repairs if it puts you in any danger.

“There are also ways to make yourself clearer to other vehicles such as
using hazard warning lights if your car is causing an obstruction and having
fluorescent clothing in the boot so you can be spotted in poor visibility.”
[© 2014 Local World]




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Re: [EVDL] Speaking of General Jack Ripper (and thereby 'How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love The Bomb')

[Martin WINLOW via EV]

I hate to say it but I think this is going to become quite a common issue.  All 
the more reason to buy an EV that has an ICEV sister.  If things get really 
silly (and it would only take another oil price spike to bring out all the 
psychopaths from under their stones) you can just remove the 'EV' signs off 
your car - even replace them with ICEV ones.  Unfortunately, it isn't going to 
stop people damaging your car whilst it is charging - and that has already 
started, too.

Depresssingly yours, Martin Winlow.


On 21 May 2014, at 15:02, Geoff Pullinger via EV wrote:

> Has there been some news story I've missed in the last few weeks?  Perhaps
> something about how EV's are destroying the purity of our bodily fluids?  I
> only ask this because during the last few weeks I've had three instances
> where other motorists have harassed me while I was driving my EV.  One guy
> in a parking lot drove his pickup straight at me while I was getting into
> my car and then turned away missing me by about a foot.  The other two
> incidents involved people driving on my bumper even though I was going five
> mph over the limit. This has never happened to me before.  My car has EV
> plates and a small sign on the back that says 'electric'.
> 
> -- 
> Geoff Pullinger

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[EVDL] EVLN: Rapper T-Pain Twizy EV cruising in France

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/rapper-t-pain-rides-a-rented-renault-twizy-in-france-81602.html
Rapper T-Pain Rides a Rented Renault Twizy in France
by Ionut Ungureanu  21st May 2014

[image  
http://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/rapper-t-pain-is-riding-in-a-rented-renault-twizy-in-france-81602_1.jpg
]

American Rapper T-Pain recently posted an image of him riding in his rented
Renault Twizy in Nice, France. Cruising along with one of his friends, it
seems they were actually having a lot of fun in that battery-powered
two-seated electric vehicle.

When you are an American rapper visiting France of course you’ll drive a
French car while sightseeing. Now the problem is, you’d think it’s a Bugatti
or maybe some other type of supercar, considering rappers do like to show
off. Well, it’s not the case of the 28-year old American singer-songwriter. 

Faheem Rasheed Najm, aka T-Pain, posted a picture of him and his friend
riding in Europe’s cheapest electric vehicle, the Renault Twizy. Considering
we’re looking at a 140 cm wide vehicle with no side windows that weighs 475
kg, the Twizy was probably a bit of a squeeze for the two grown men.

For those thinking of the environment and wanting to save a wale or two,
we’ll remind you this little vehicle, we think should rather be considered a
scooter than a car, works with a battery the owner rents from Renault for
£45 a month. With a 60 miles range, the battery takes around 3,5 hours to
recharge.

If you want to know more about the fun to be had in a Twizy and what it's
like to own, read our review. But considered yourself warned: if you’re
planning to drive it in a humid type of environment, we suggest you buy
those £500 side doors, you’ll definitely use them.
[© autoevolution.com]
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Pain
Faheem Rasheed Najm (aka T-Pain)




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http://www.autoworldnews.com/articles/7424/20140514/teslas-elon-musk-200-gigafactories-will-be-needed.htm
Musk sez '200 Gigafactories' Will Be Needed

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/05/13/3437155/batteries-sold-first-quarter-2014/
Sales Of Plugin Car Batteries Have Tripled In Three Years

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/latest/panasonic-signs-letter-of-intent-on-tesla-gigafactory/story-e6frg90f-1226914396206
Panasonic signs 'letter of intent' on Tesla gigafactory

http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/13/5695442/my-house-is-my-gas-station-and-so-is-yours
My house is my gas station (and so is yours)
+
EVLN: 2014 Ford Focus Electric's Ultimate Guide


{brucedp.150m.com}



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[EVDL] EVLN: 2014 Ford Focus Electric's Ultimate Guide

[brucedp5 via EV]

'Available in select parts of the U.S.'
% Then for a selected few, this could be the compliance-EV for you %

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1065308_ford-focus-electric-ultimate-guide-to-what-you-need-to-know
Ford Focus Electric: Ultimate Guide To What You Need To Know
By Antony Ingram  May 18, 2014

[image  
http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/2012-ford-ford-focus-electric_100388573_l.jpg
2012 Ford Focus Electric, New York City, April 2012

http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/2012-ford-ford-focus-electric_100388569_l.jpg
]

The 2014 Ford Focus Electric is already available in select parts of the
U.S. -- and to answer all your questions about Ford’s first mass-produced
all-electric car here’s our ultimate guide to the Ford Focus Electric. 

For our guide, we’ve hand-picked the best information about the five-seat
hatchback, detailing everything from its debut through to its pedestrian
warning system, its in-car telematics and even the occasional celebrity
appearance ...

The basics

So what should you know about Ford's rival to the more established Nissan
Leaf?

Under the hood, you'll find a 107-kilowatt (143-horsepower) electric motor.
A 23 kilowatt-hour lithium-ion battery pack provides the power, and its
official EPA range is 76 miles.

It also gets a 105 MPG-equivalent rating with energy use of 32 kWh per 100
miles--slightly below the Leaf's 114 MPGe, 30 kWh/100-mi rating.

While the Leaf has no dedicated thermal management system for the battery,
the Focus does--and the ability for it to cool or warm the battery depending
on conditions should ensure range is preserved a little better in
temperature extremes.

A recent price cut has softened the Focus Electric's sticker price, which
now begins at $35,995 including a mandatory $825 destination charge--but not
including any federal or local incentives or tax rebates.

Driving the Ford Focus Electric

The Focus is already a fun car so the Electric is off to a good start, and
there's enough power and torque from the electric motor to tackle city and
highway driving. We described it as "solid, smooth and sporty" after driving
for the first time.

If you want to know more, check out our first drive review, below. To find
out even more on the Focus Electric, head over to The Car Connection's full
review of the 2014 Ford Focus Electric.

Buying and owning the Ford Focus Electric

Tempted by an electric Focus, after reading the basics and our first drive
review? You may also be interested in some of the following links then,
which provide a little more information on what the Focus will be like to
buy and own.

Particularly interesting is Ford's run-down of all the parts you won't be
changing, compared to a regular car. If you don't like maintenance, this is
probably the vehicle for you!
[© greencarreports.com]




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http://www.autoworldnews.com/articles/7424/20140514/teslas-elon-musk-200-gigafactories-will-be-needed.htm
Musk sez '200 Gigafactories' Will Be Needed

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/05/13/3437155/batteries-sold-first-quarter-2014/
Sales Of Plugin Car Batteries Have Tripled In Three Years

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/latest/panasonic-signs-letter-of-intent-on-tesla-gigafactory/story-e6frg90f-1226914396206
Panasonic signs 'letter of intent' on Tesla gigafactory

http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/13/5695442/my-house-is-my-gas-station-and-so-is-yours
My house is my gas station (and so is yours)
+
EVLN: Rapper T-Pain Twizy EV cruising in France


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Re: [EVDL] How I learned to stop worrying and love autonomous-driving & wireless-charging

[Martin WINLOW via EV]

Folks can rail against autonomous vehicles (AVs) all they want but come 2050 
most vehicles on the road will be AVs.  This doesn't mean that those of us who 
enjoy going for a blast won't be able to but for everyone else who just wants 
to get from A to B safely, efficiently (in both time and resources) and be able 
to use the traveling time for doing something other than getting tired and 
fractious having to concentrate on driving, it'll be a Godsend.

As for H2 FCVs -for anything but a very small section of the market, it is a 
totally unworkable and completely insane idea - but Big Oil and their political 
allies will still try to force it down our throats.  The UK government are 
still committed to spending millions on it.  Hopefully the advances in and 
take-up of EVs will seal FCVs fate before they ever get off the ground.  You 
can read about HMG's plans for FCVs (and other Ultra Low Emission Vehicles EVs 
etc) here... 
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/307019/ulev-2015-2020.pdf

MW


On 21 May 2014, at 10:16, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

> 
> 
> IMO ...
> 
> Since lately I have so much time on my hands (waiting in hospital waiting
> rooms to be seen), and the newswires with less EV and more h2 items than in
> the past, it makes me think of the strengths and weaknesses of each vehicle,
> but boiled down to a non-technical level (what the common person feels who
> has not-a-clue of all the technical pros and cons of either).
> 
> We have all seen how the automakers are touting the semi-autonomous modes
> the new vehicles now have (self parking, sleep alert, etc.), like it is
> preview to what I have occasionally posted of the vehicles having full
> autonomous abilities:
> 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Renault-Hints-at-2016-Autonomous-Leaf-EV-tp4668014.html
> EVLN: Renault Hints at 2016 Autonomous Leaf EV
> Feb 18, 2014
> 
> http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/05/the-87-billion-robot-car-industrial-complex/371242/
> The $87 Billion Robot-Car Market
> Self-driving cars might be almost 10 percent of the automotive market in a
> decade and a half.
> May 20 2014
> 
> Some evdl members have posted their dislike/disdain for an autonomous
> driving mode, like it is the end of driving as we know it. However, there
> could be a benefit that would help sell plugins.
> 
> Lets also look (simplistically) at how energy is put back in either a plugin
> or a h2 fcv. Currently both require a human. The fcv needs a human to
> connect the high pressure hose that would pump the chemical-energy into the
> fcv. And one of the ways to recharge a plugin is to have a human plug-in the
> electrical connection to transfer the power back into the pack.
> 
> But a plugin can also have the option to use wireless/inductive recharging.
> From what I recall, this has developed to a 5kw level for both home and
> public use:
> 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/USU-5kW-90-efficient-10-inch-air-gap-wireless-power-transfer-td354.html
> USU 5kW 90% efficient 10-inch air gap wireless power transfer
> Jul 13, 2011
> ...
> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=6342812&url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fxpls%2Fabs_all.jsp%3Farnumber%3D6342812
> 
> The 5kw level-2 charging would be good enough to recharge 100 mile EVs that
> charge during the shorter time window off-peak hours utilities offer a
> discount on.
> 
> I foresee EVs getting to a point to where the driver could get out, the
> plugin would park itself, and do its own wireless recharging at the assigned
> time (all automatic, the driver does not have to think).
> 
> fcvs do not have this non-human/hands-free option. Thus, this would be a
> selling point for higher end plugins (it does it all be itself, I do not
> have-to-remember to plug-it-in, etc.).
> 
> While a few automakers have thrown against EVs by backing fcvs (with $upport
> from Oil companies that would chemical-fuel them), fcvs have no hands-free
> refueling solution.
> 
> Chock one up for plugins over fcvs ...
> 
> 
> {brucedp.150m.com}
> 

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