Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"
Michael Ross via EV wrote: I am comparing to the lead acid chemistry where the charged state has a competing lower thermodynamic state, so a charge lead acid cell always runs down even in the absence of any short circuit or load. One of the neat things about Li ion cells that this condition does not exist. This is the self discharge that I am talking about. Well, Dahn says very clearly in his lecture "there is no redox shuttle" back to the positive electrode. Lack of any redox reactions doesn't mean there aren't any other sources of leakage and self-discharge. For example, capacitors have no redox shuttle, either... and yet they self-discharge. When you have a voltage difference, you also have an electric field. The strength of this field is usually measured in volts per meter. When the oppositely charged particles are very close together (micrometers), even a small voltage difference (like 3v) creates an enormous electric field strength (3 million volts per meter). Such a field strength can easily propel electrons from one side to the other; i.e. discharge the battery. -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
"I’m not sure what you mean by this." I am comparing to the lead acid chemistry where the charged state has a competing lower thermodynamic state, so a charge lead acid cell always runs down even in the absence of any short circuit or load. One of the neat things about Li ion cells that this condition does not exist. This is the self discharge that I am talking about. Well, Dahn says very clearly in his lecture "there is no redox shuttle" back to the positive electrode. It is in answer to a question in the last 10 minutes. He is talking mostly about Li Metal O2, like LiCOO2; not the LFP, usually. But I don't believe the activity at the negative, graphene electrode (as opposed to the LFP positive electrode) is any different in an LFP cell. The secret sauce of intercalation is the bistable nature it imparts to Li ion cells. The ions end up nestled with a circle of carbon atoms above and below that has no motivation for change (thermodynamically stable). In the Linden's Handbook of Batteries, Chapter 26, by Dr. Dahn is a nice discussion of how the negative electrode is manufactured, how and why it works. It is possible to make a negative electrode poorly. If the graphene is misaligned, poorly made, and so on, you can get ions into the electrode, but it would not be stable and the capacity would be low. "If a low enough resistance path for electrons to the cathode is provided, lithium will move back to the cathode to combine with electrons there and form LiFePO4 " I pretty much said the same thing. However, good cells don't have this. " No cells I know of are using graphene for one of the electrodes. People are experimenting with it, but no cells in production. " You are incorrect or maybe talking about LFP cells again. It is very hard to know everything that is going on, and lots of information becomes quickly dated. Check out the Linden's Handbook. On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 9:57 AM, tomw via EV wrote: > /“A lithium cell has no thermodynamic forcing function to move the ions > back > to the positive electrode. Stating this in the terms above - neither of > the > discharged or charge states are more stable than the other.”/ > > I’m not sure what you mean by this. > > Jay Whitacre (Materials Science, Carnegie Mellon): The phase change LiFePO4 > to FePO4 occurs at 3.4V, redox reaction. During charging all lithium > leaves > the cathode, now have 3.4V driving Li back to the cathode when the charger > is disconnected. > - that's from the video I posted a link to after I posted the link to the > video by Dahn. If a low enough resistance path for electrons to the cathode > is provided, lithium will move back to the cathode to combine with > electrons > there and form LiFePO4, driven by the 3.4V chemical potential, with no > external potential applied as during charging. Maybe by "stable" you mean > this won't happen unless a low enough resistance path is provided, such as > dendrites through the separator, conducting contamination on the cell > packaging surface between electrodes, or an external wire connection. > > /"A lot of the effort that goes into forming the negative electrode has to > do with physically arranging little plates of graphene so that there is a > large percentage of the volume in this fortuitous geometry."/ > > No cells I know of are using graphene for one of the electrodes. People > are > experimenting with it, but no cells in production. Most use "specially > formulated" graphite. Maybe that's what you meant since the carbon atoms > bound in hexagons are arranged in sheets in graphite. Graphene is of course > one of those single sheets, famously lifted with tape from a pencil mark > when first studied, so I guess that is what you mean rather than an actual > graphene electrode which would have quite different properties than > graphite. > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Bicycle-battery-tp4676242p4676429.html > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com ---
Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
/“A lithium cell has no thermodynamic forcing function to move the ions back to the positive electrode. Stating this in the terms above - neither of the discharged or charge states are more stable than the other.”/ I’m not sure what you mean by this. Jay Whitacre (Materials Science, Carnegie Mellon): The phase change LiFePO4 to FePO4 occurs at 3.4V, redox reaction. During charging all lithium leaves the cathode, now have 3.4V driving Li back to the cathode when the charger is disconnected. - that's from the video I posted a link to after I posted the link to the video by Dahn. If a low enough resistance path for electrons to the cathode is provided, lithium will move back to the cathode to combine with electrons there and form LiFePO4, driven by the 3.4V chemical potential, with no external potential applied as during charging. Maybe by "stable" you mean this won't happen unless a low enough resistance path is provided, such as dendrites through the separator, conducting contamination on the cell packaging surface between electrodes, or an external wire connection. /"A lot of the effort that goes into forming the negative electrode has to do with physically arranging little plates of graphene so that there is a large percentage of the volume in this fortuitous geometry."/ No cells I know of are using graphene for one of the electrodes. People are experimenting with it, but no cells in production. Most use "specially formulated" graphite. Maybe that's what you meant since the carbon atoms bound in hexagons are arranged in sheets in graphite. Graphene is of course one of those single sheets, famously lifted with tape from a pencil mark when first studied, so I guess that is what you mean rather than an actual graphene electrode which would have quite different properties than graphite. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Bicycle-battery-tp4676242p4676429.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVjobs: Tesla gigafactory-NV jobs list and how to get them
http://www.rgj.com/story/money/reno-rebirth/2015/06/15/gigafactory-jobs-list-description-requirements-apply/71135096/ List: Every Tesla gigafactory job and how to get them TESLA TIMELINE: BUILDING A GIGAFACTORY How do you build a $5 billion battery plant? One step at a time, of course. Here's a timeline of construction activity at Tesla Motors' gigafactory site just east of Reno, Nev., based on permit data. 2014 2015 2016 CLEAR AND GRUB Rolling start Brush and vegetation is cleared and the ground is prepped at the potential gigafactory site at Tahoe-Reno Industrial Center. Permits show that initial work is started on May 19, 2014 by F & P Construction of Reno. Interestingly, Tesla had yet to make an official announcement at the time and Nevada was still competing with other states for the lithium-ion battery plant. Storey County Building and Planning Dept. RGJ research Jason Hidalgo, RGJ 5:32 a.m. PDT June 15, 2015 Gigafactory-Rendering (Photo: Tesla Motors) CONNECT 2 TWEETLINKEDINCOMMENTEMAILMORE Eyeing a position at Tesla Motors' gigafactory? Get in line, buddy. Given the rock star status of Tesla CEO Elon Musk combined with the prestige that comes with working at the largest lithium-ion battery plant in the world, a spot at the $5 billion gigafactory east of Reno-Sparks is one of the most coveted jobs out there. Once the facility is in full swing, Tesla expects to employ 6,500 people, which include engineers, technicians, material handlers and managers. Estimated job and salary breakdowns submitted by Tesla to the state in 2014 are: 4,550 production associates paid $22.79 per hour 200 material handlers paid $22.79 per hour 460 equipment technicians paid $27.88 per hour 360 quality technicians paid $27.88 per hour 930 engineers and senior staff paid $41.83 per hour. Here's a running list of all positions that Tesla has posted so far at its career page and what each job entails (Panasonic jobs are not included in this list for now). Requirements range from a high school education all the way to an engineering degree. Links will be removed as jobs get filled but the descriptions will still remain to give readers an idea of what it takes to run the gigafactory from a manpower perspective. RENO GAZETTE JOURNAL Elon Musk calls Tesla's Nevada facility 'Gigafactory 1,' wants more gigafactories Buyer: There's shopping for fun and there's shopping for work. Just like avid shoppers know the best places and the best deals, buyers for manufacturing facilities need to leverage their knowledge of the supply chain and industry trends to make the best purchasing decisions for the company. It basically boils down to striking the perfect balance between cost and quality. For Tesla's case, its buyer is expected to be well-versed in transportation and logistics supplier strategy. Responsibilities include coming up with bid specifications, identifying potential suppliers, negotiating contracts, vetting suppliers, and making recommendations for sourcing. Requirements: The company actually lists several, including a bachelor's degree in a relevant field, one to three years of transportation purchasing experience, knowledge of commercial contract negotiating and familiarity with customs, tax, and duty requirements for international shipping to name a few. http://bit.ly/1B0xJPH Commissioning engineer: Commissioning engineers are typically described as managers and troubleshooters, ensuring that all facets of a project are working as intended. In its job posting, Tesla says it is specifically looking for someone with experience in overseeing mechanical, electrical and plumbing systems. The person also needs to be able to identify problems to be addressed by contractors and project managers as well as train vendors and oversee the re-commissioning of existing buildings in the gigafactory campus. Requirements: A degree in mechanical or architectural engineering is preferred as well as in-depth understanding of HVAC and electrical systems, building automation and controls. Desired skills include a Commissioning Industry Certification, Certified Energy Manager (CEM) credential and other HVAC or building construction and management certifications or credentials. http://bit.ly/1cJGMc6 Equipment maintenance technician: If you're a regular Mr. Fix-It, then this is the job for you. Equipment maintenance technicians at the gigafactory site are expected to cover production line equipment and ensure that any downtime is minimized. This includes responding to breakdowns and alarms and doing major equipment repairs and rebuilds. Besides managing spare part inventory, maintenance technicians also can be called upon to design, fabricate and fully document equipment improvements and modifications. Operating forklifts, cranes and other heavy equipment is part of the job, too. Requirements: Tesla did not list any education or experience requirements for this position. http://bit.ly/1Gb6ctU Execu
[EVDL] EVLN: Leaf Spy app Gets The Most Out of the Pack (v)
http://www.torquenews.com/3618/how-nissan-leaf-owner-gets-most-battery-charging How One Nissan LEAF Driver Gets The Most Out of His Battery Pack By Douglas Stansfield 2015-06-14 [image http://www.torquenews.com/sites/default/files/image-1/nissan_leaf_battery_stats.jpg Nissan LEAF Battery Usage Stats videos https://youtu.be/aLQ49BIlS0s 2015 05 16 17 49 42 TransAtlanticEV May 16, 2015 Leaf Spy charging video showing the Leaf's battery and the measures associated with it. Very cool App for your Android phone(not available on Apple phones). https://youtu.be/npWg-r2buIc CHAdeMo DC Fast Charge 380v DC 100 amp Nissan Leaf...Leaf Spy TransAtlanticEV May 18, 2015 Living with an EV is AWESOME! This DC Fast charger is located about 2 miles away from my office. So I had an appointment today and had a few things that I used up my mileage on in the morning so I wouldn't have had enough charge to get to my appoint and get home. Well, I only needed a little so I spent 15 minutes at the CHAdeMo and got the juice I needed! Made the appointment and got home with no trouble! You can see the effect on the battery for 3 minutes of the fast charge! ] If you are like me, you want to make sure you get the most out of your Nissan Leaf’s battery. This article will give you an overview of my battery philosophy which under full disclosure is my very own attitude toward the battery and is not backed up by data hungry research however, that being said, I do have 41,000 miles on my Leafs pack and do take very good care of it. Side note, here, regarding my resent articles about the $5000 and $7000 residual Nissan Lease Credits, I would like to note that the sold listings on Ebay at the time of this writing were mixed on resale of the 2013 Leaf which I used as my first pass check. The lowest prices I saw in the sold listings was in the $10k range but these were all cars which had been repurchased from the original buyers because of electronic issues ranging from battery malfunction to controller malfunctions. If the only thing was a battery swap from the factory, then I would feel pretty good about getting one of these since an EV really is only four main components, the controller (Inverter), the Charger, the Battery, and the Motor. Now, back to the battery, if you don’t have the Leaf Spy app, you are less knowledgeable than you could be. I believe there are other apps now besides this one, but this is the one I use. The companion app to this is the Leaf Logger. The Leaf Spy Lite is free, and the Leaf Spy Pro and Leaf Logger charges a nominal fee and in my opinion you should go for it. Other issue is this app only runs on the android operating system. You will also need an OBDII blue tooth reader which aren’t very expensive either. If you already have a droid phone you are all in for around $30 if I remember correctly. Now, here is how I maximize my pack. I monitor my GIDS via the Leaf Spy app. I take note of the charged GIDS in the morning after a night charge. I also occasionally give the pack a CHAdeMo fast charge every so often. I have noted that a CHAdeMo fast charge can bring up the GIDS higher than previous 240v 30amp charges have. I also believe in “battery exercise”. While I haven’t read much about batteries having any memory effect and don’t believe that these Leaf Cells do, however, I have noted my GOM goes up after I have gone on a longer trip with the battery that involves more regen. I also keep the driving in ECO drive mode often to maximize the regen. I still average out at about 268 GIDS after an overnight 240v 30amp charge. GOM ranges at full charge each morning 85-93 depending on early morning temperature and the previous trip. Since my daily commute is now only 17 miles each way, start out in the morning downhill and then I plug in at 120v at the office and then turn around and head back up the hills to go home this has worked out very well. I’m in sales so some days I’m putting many more miles on the car than that but some days I’m office bound and that’s the routine. The Leaf Spy app gives you graphs of every battery cell pair and you can easily see if any of the cells are wildly out of balance. None of mine have one way out of whack but I keep monitoring them anyway, Just in case. If you are slightly battery obsessive, you will be amazed at all the information this tool can give you. If you want to keep a look at the battery temperature in southern climate’s to your tires air pressure, this tool gives it to you. It is data paradise. [© torquenews.com] For EVLN posts use: http://evdl.org/evln/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaellynch/2015/06/10/how-elon-musk-could-make-tesla-animal-cruelty-free/ How Elon Musk Could Make Tesla Animal Cruelty-Free ... http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/06/10/peta-tesla/71031626/ PETA pressures Tesla to drop leather seats http://www.skyhidailynews.com/news/16725291-113/getting-recharged-at-devils-thumb MPWC & L2 EVSE amenities @devilsthumbranch.
[EVDL] EVLN: Tesla's view on the diluting-changes of the CA-CARB mandate
'Tesla wants stricter emissions rules' [ref http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Oh-my-aching-bent-CA-ZEV-mandate-tiny-carmakers-get-a-Big-Break-tp4676054.html EVLN: Oh my aching bent CA-ZEV mandate> tiny-carmakers get a Big-Break ] http://www.autonews.com/article/20150615/OEM11/306159943/tesla-takes-on-industry-in-california Tesla takes on industry in California Gabe Nelson June 15, 2015 EV maker takes on industry in defense of Calif. mandate "The inconveniant truth is that oru success has revealed the weakness of the mandate." -- Diarmuid O'Connell, Tesla Motors PALO ALTO, Calif. -- First Tesla Motors Inc. went up against car dealers, waging a state-by-state campaign to protect its factory-owned showrooms from franchise laws. Now it's ready for another statehouse scuffle -- this time, against other car companies. Three years after California imposed rules requiring 15 percent of cars sold in the state to be zero-emission vehicles by 2025, automakers are asking for deep changes, including permission to comply with the mandate using plug-in hybrids instead of pure electric vehicles and fuel cell cars. But Tesla, which sees California's mandate as a crucial driver in its quest to take EVs such as the Model S into the mainstream, won't let that happen without a fight. "The mandate is already far too weak," Diarmuid O'Connell, Tesla's vice president of business development, said in an interview last week at Tesla's headquarters here. "I don't think it was ever conceived that a pure-play electric car company like Tesla could exist, let alone thrive, but we have. The inconvenient truth is that our success has revealed the weakness of the mandate." To satisfy California's rules, the six car companies that sell the most cars in the state -- Fiat Chrysler, Ford, General Motors, Honda, Nissan and Toyota -- must either sell a certain number of ZEVs or buy "credits" from companies such as Tesla to make up their shortfall. A second batch of the market's second-tier players, including Hyundai, Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen, will face the same requirements starting in 2018. With a midterm review slated to begin in 2016, some automakers have started asking regulators to replace the ZEV mandate with a new formula based on miles traveled on electric power, or "e-miles," so they can comply simply by selling more plug-in hybrids. Tesla sees that as a cop-out. To defend the rules, it has started openly challenging its rivals in Sacramento, ditching the usual decorum of lobbying, in which companies press for their own interest but steer clear of criticizing the competition in public. This approach was on display May 23, during a hearing of the California Air Resources Board in the capital. At the hearing, Tesla openly fought a plea for leniency from a group of smaller automakers, including Mazda, Subaru and Jaguar-Land Rover, which had argued that their size was keeping them from putting pure EVs on the market. Those companies have "access to the same financial markets that enabled Tesla to raise all of the funding it needed to launch electric vehicles," Ken Morgan, Tesla's director of business development and government affairs, testified during the hearing. The problem, Morgan said, is not that the rules are too strict but that they are too lenient, with too many ZEV credits being made available to automakers. He said all automakers could comply from now until 2022 without changing their product mix at all, simply by using their existing credits -- and until 2023 if they bought credits from Tesla to supplement their stockpiles. Morgan said that raises the prospect that only 600,000 electric cars would hit California's roads by 2025, well shy of Gov. Jerry Brown's goal of 1.5 million. Tesla's claims drew pushback from other automakers. Relying solely on available credits would be a foolish strategy, critics argued, because the standards get much stricter in 2024 and 2025, and no one can predict where they might go in the years beyond that. "No one agrees that there is a surplus of credits," said one executive from a car company that has lobbied against Tesla on the issue. "All they care about is protecting their market to sell credits," the executive said. Tesla does stand to gain from a stricter mandate. The company reported $152 million in revenue in 2014 from sales of ZEV credits, 5 percent of its total revenue. But speaking to analysts in May, Tesla CEO Elon Musk characterized that income as "not a big deal." O'Connell told Automotive News: "Credit revenue used to move the needle at Tesla. It doesn't anymore, and it hasn't for some time. ... What is a strategic driver of the company is to put as many EVs on the road as possible, whether they're ours or whether they're produced by other manufacturers." As the midterm review unfolds next year, environmental groups say Tesla's outspoken stance may make it tougher for California to weaken the mandate. "I do
[EVDL] EVLN: Sacramento-CA PD seeing a spate of $1k CL-sold stolen Prius-packs
http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article24383143.html
Sacramento police see spate of Toyota Prius battery thefts
June 14, 2015 By Richard Chang, +Peter Hecht
Three cars parked downtown have part stolen
Batteries can fetch $1,000 online
Sacramento Prius owners beware: Someone wants to take your car battery.
Three Toyota Prius owners parked downtown had the large battery packs stolen
from their vehicles in the last 10 days, according to the Sacramento Police
Department.
The batteries, which power the hybrid cars, can fetch about $1,000 via
websites like Craigslist. The 100-pound batteries can take 20 minutes to an
hour to dismantle, police said.
Prius owners are advised to install tamper-resistant bolts to hold down the
battery pack. Backing into a parking spot is also another way to lower the
risk of theft because the batteries are in the rear of the vehicle, police
said.
“The batteries appear to have an extreme value,” said Officer Justin Brown,
a department spokesman. “We definitely want it to stop.”
According to Green Car Reports, an automotive news site for hybrid, electric
and fuel-efficient vehicles, customers buying Prius batteries at dealerships
may pay more than $4,400, including the costs of the battery, cables, labor
and taxes.
As a result, authorities say, thefts are increasing and a black market is
emerging for the batteries.
A round of hybrid battery thefts also occurred last year in East Sacramento.
No suspects or leads have been established in the latest thefts, Brown said.
Recently, KGO television in San Francisco reported that thefts of hybrid car
batteries are booming in the Bay Area, particularly targeting owners of
Priuses.
A recent theft victim, John Nashed told KGO that his Prius was so ripped
apart by thieves breaking in to steal his battery that “it looked like a
tornado went through.” He said the insurance adjuster that later met him at
a repair shop told him he was working on three similar cases involving
stolen batteries.
[© sacbee.com]
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Hey-Buddy-Wanna-buy-a-hot-hybrid-pack-cheap-CL-ads-v-tp4675774.html
EVLN: Hey Buddy, Wanna buy a hot hybrid-pack cheap? > CL-ads (v)
May 26 2015
For EVLN posts use:
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