Re: [EVDL] What You Need To Know To Wire A Garage EVSE

[David Kerzel via EV]

The UL listing for the EVSE will require hard wiring or allow a plug in
connection.  A plug in connection does not guaranty a ground so extra
circuits are needed to insure there is a ground for the car.  Older 240 volt
units all required hard wiring but some new ones allow a plug.  Do it wrong
and you are fully responcible.
David
Modular EV Power LLC

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 3:26 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What You Need To Know To Wire A Garage EVSE

On 8 Mar 2016 at 10:39, Jan Steinman via EV wrote:

> Can you point me to the page and paragraph in the National Electrical 
> Code where it says such a thing is illegal? Because I canTMt find it in my
copy.
> :-)

If you mean your suicide cord, you're right, the NEC is generally mute about
stuff you plug in.

Howver, if you ever do manage to electrocute or injure someone, I expect
that the investigators will find something to charge you with.  :-(

> 
> Please understand that, as an electrical engineer, I am EXTREMELY 
> careful with such things.

I don't mean to offend, but every couple of years, we get posts here like
yours.  Every time, a few people respond exactly as Jim did.  Every time,
the OP responds defensively, pretty much the way you did here.  "I'm
careful, I know what I'm doing."

I don't doubt that you do.  And there are reasonably good chances that
you'll never electrocute anyone, or blow up your genset, or zap a curious
toddler with your suicide cord.

But being an EE does not make you immune to accidents.  Stuff happens.

It's also not expensive or difficult to do it right.  And by installing a
proper setup, you make it possible for other people to switch your house
over to backup power and back, quickly and safely.  Why wouldn't you want
that?

These quick and dirty methods remind me a little of the way electricity is
done routinely in places like India and Thailand. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMxPL99h_DM

Sorry, I know it's a bit of a dig; but personally, I have too much pride to
do such a hack job in my own house.

> I would discourage anyone from doing such a thing unless they are 
> absolutely sure of their knowledge and procedures.

I would discourage anyone from doing such a thing, full stop.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] What You Need To Know To Wire A Garage EVSE

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 8 Mar 2016 at 10:39, Jan Steinman via EV wrote:

> Can you point me to the page and paragraph in the National Electrical Code
> where it says such a thing is illegal? Because I canTMt find it in my copy.
> :-)

If you mean your suicide cord, you're right, the NEC is generally mute about 
stuff you plug in.

Howver, if you ever do manage to electrocute or injure someone, I expect 
that the investigators will find something to charge you with.  :-(

> 
> Please understand that, as an electrical engineer, I am EXTREMELY
> careful with such things. 

I don't mean to offend, but every couple of years, we get posts here like 
yours.  Every time, a few people respond exactly as Jim did.  Every time, 
the OP responds defensively, pretty much the way you did here.  "I'm 
careful, I know what I'm doing."

I don't doubt that you do.  And there are reasonably good chances that 
you'll never electrocute anyone, or blow up your genset, or zap a curious 
toddler with your suicide cord.

But being an EE does not make you immune to accidents.  Stuff happens.

It's also not expensive or difficult to do it right.  And by installing a 
proper setup, you make it possible for other people to switch your house 
over to backup power and back, quickly and safely.  Why wouldn't you want 
that?

These quick and dirty methods remind me a little of the way electricity is 
done routinely in places like India and Thailand. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMxPL99h_DM

Sorry, I know it's a bit of a dig; but personally, I have too much pride to 
do such a hack job in my own house.

> I would discourage anyone from doing such a thing unless they are
> absolutely sure of their knowledge and procedures. 

I would discourage anyone from doing such a thing, full stop.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] What You Need To Know To Wire A Garage EVSE

[Jan Steinman via EV]

On 2016-03-07, at 15:48, Jim Walls  wrote:
> 
> That is almost guaranteed to be illegal and HIGHLY dangerous.

Can you point me to the page and paragraph in the National Electrical Code 
where it says such a thing is illegal? Because I can’t find it in my copy. :-)

But your point is taken, and I could see how, as a “long time electric utility 
worker,” you would be sensitized to the issue.

Please understand that, as an electrical engineer, I am EXTREMELY careful with 
such things. I apologize if I seemed glib or flippant about it, and I would 
discourage anyone from doing such a thing unless they are absolutely sure of 
their knowledge and procedures.

But on the other hand, most people manage to control some 200 explosions per 
second, totalling some 100 kilojoules of energy, while guiding a megagram or 
two over some 30 metres with a precision of some ten centimetres or so — 
sometimes continuously for 8-12 hours, all while only killing themselves and 
others some 30,000 times a year!

On the grand scheme of things, I think you’re overreacting a bit, but I do 
understand your perspective — flaggers tend to die more from traffic than 
drivers do.

So folks, BE CAREFUL OUT THERE! Please don’t electrocute Jim!

de N7JDB


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Re: [EVDL] What You Need To Know To Wire A Garage EVSE

[Peri Hartman via EV]

One more thing about not meeting code.  Check your insurance policy.  If 
you make a claim for damage and that damage was caused by something 
illegal, e.g. not to code, they might be able to opt out of paying.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 07-Mar-16 11:06:08 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What You Need To Know To Wire A Garage EVSE


On 7 Mar 2016 at 14:36, Jan Steinman via EV wrote:

 Y'mean like the cord and plug I wired to go into the dryer outlet¦ 
with a

 15 kW generator on the other end? :-)


OK, now THAT'S a hazard.

I'm pretty middle of the road on electrical safety - not careless, but 
not a
nervous nellie either.  I've had plenty of shocks, and as far as I can 
tell

they've only affected my brain, which I rarely need anyway.  :-\

Still, I really try to be careful with stuff that can kill me (or 
someone
else) if I do it wrong.  And with this, you have to do everything 
right, and
in the right order, and every piece has to work right, or really bad 
things

can happen.

Chances are that 99.99% of the time it'll all go fine.  It's what can 
happen
that 0.01% of the time that bothers me.  If something went wrong with 
the
main breaker and it didn't open (it happens, though not often), or I 
got

confused or distracted, it's bad enough that I could fry my inverter or
start a fire when the power came back on.  It's much worse that I could
electrocute some lineman trying to get the power back on (or knock him 
off

the pole or ladder with a shock).

The other thing that I wouldn't want to use is that double-male cable. 
(I've
heard people call these "suicide cords."  I call them "sticks sharpened 
at

both ends.")  Don't keep it with the extension cords!

It's not just me, though I know I can be pretty disoriented when I'm 
half
asleep.  If Margaret called me when I was away, asking how to get the 
power
back on or put the house back on the mains, would I be able to get 
every

step right to talk her through it without being there?

I use a Square D subpanel.  It has two main breakers interlocked by a 
steel
lever, so only one breaker can be on at a time.  You feed one breaker 
from
the mains, the other with your backup power.   Anybody can use it 
safely,
even in a dark cellar.  It cost me less than $100 and was definitely 
worth

it for the peace of mind.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea to use your EV (or a 
batch of
former EV batteries) for household backup power. But if it doesn't cost 
much
or take much effort to do it right, why do a hack job with a stick 
sharpened

at both ends?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] What You Need To Know To Wire A Garage EVSE

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Jan,
At a minimum, use an appropriate interlock on your service panel.
They can even be made DIY from a flat piece of stock and this shows that
you at least attempt to make it safe. For an example see this Ebay
listing of an interlock to create a transfer switch on a GE Panel:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GE-200B-General-Electric-GE-Generator-interlock-
kit-200A-Panel-Transfer-Switch-/291005581147

There are plenty other possibilities - two opposite dual ganged breakers
can be interlocked to create a transfer switch and it is even simple to
wire up an automatic transfer switch using 2 standard contactors with
240V coils.
Preferably one has an additional NC (normally closed) contact that can
be used to sense when the grid has powered down and this contactor is
disengaged (coil to utility input), with the NC contact in series with
the second contactor coil and powered by the genset, it will close the
second contactor as soon as the genset is started but will drop the
genset contactor out as soon as the grid comes back. Totally safe and
automatic transfer for a low cost with 2 standard contactors. Why live
dangerously?

Note that if you have a 200A service and the genset can deliver 60A then
you can a 200A and a 60A contactor in this setup, they do not need to be
equal in current. The utility contactor should have the extra NC contact
to open the genset contactor when the grid is on.
If you can find a DPDT contactor that makes an even easier setup -
connect both the coil and the NO contacts to the genset, the NC contacts
to the grid and the center connection to the house (service panel
input). When you start the genset it disconnects the grid and connects
the home to the genset automatically.
I see that David Rhoden also uses the manual interlock on the service
panel similar to what I quoted as first option.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
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this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Jan Steinman
via EV
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 2:37 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What You Need To Know To Wire A Garage EVSE

> From: EVDL Administrator via EV 
> 
> Nor do I see much hazard in adding a cord and plug.

Y'mean like the cord and plug I wired to go into the dryer outlet...
with a 15 kW generator on the other end? :-)

I am careful to follow a certain sequence that begins with throwing the
main breaker and genset breaker, then plugging the plug into the dryer
outlet and the genset BEFORE turning on the genset breaker.

That does make it hard to know when the power comes back on, though.
Gotta keep an eye on the neighbour's lights. I've thought about sticking
a little NE-2 bulb or Sonalert on the utility side of the main breaker,
but haven't worked up the nerve yet.

 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op  

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Re: [EVDL] What You Need To Know To Wire A Garage EVSE

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 7 Mar 2016 at 14:36, Jan Steinman via EV wrote:

> Y'mean like the cord and plug I wired to go into the dryer outlet¦ with a
> 15 kW generator on the other end? :-)

OK, now THAT'S a hazard.

I'm pretty middle of the road on electrical safety - not careless, but not a 
nervous nellie either.  I've had plenty of shocks, and as far as I can tell 
they've only affected my brain, which I rarely need anyway.  :-\

Still, I really try to be careful with stuff that can kill me (or someone 
else) if I do it wrong.  And with this, you have to do everything right, and 
in the right order, and every piece has to work right, or really bad things 
can happen.

Chances are that 99.99% of the time it'll all go fine.  It's what can happen 
that 0.01% of the time that bothers me.  If something went wrong with the 
main breaker and it didn't open (it happens, though not often), or I got 
confused or distracted, it's bad enough that I could fry my inverter or 
start a fire when the power came back on.  It's much worse that I could 
electrocute some lineman trying to get the power back on (or knock him off 
the pole or ladder with a shock).

The other thing that I wouldn't want to use is that double-male cable. (I've 
heard people call these "suicide cords."  I call them "sticks sharpened at 
both ends.")  Don't keep it with the extension cords!  

It's not just me, though I know I can be pretty disoriented when I'm half 
asleep.  If Margaret called me when I was away, asking how to get the power 
back on or put the house back on the mains, would I be able to get every 
step right to talk her through it without being there?  

I use a Square D subpanel.  It has two main breakers interlocked by a steel 
lever, so only one breaker can be on at a time.  You feed one breaker from 
the mains, the other with your backup power.   Anybody can use it safely, 
even in a dark cellar.  It cost me less than $100 and was definitely worth 
it for the peace of mind.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea to use your EV (or a batch of 
former EV batteries) for household backup power. But if it doesn't cost much 
or take much effort to do it right, why do a hack job with a stick sharpened 
at both ends?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] What You Need To Know To Wire A Garage EVSE

[Jim Walls via EV]

On 3/7/2016 14:36, Jan Steinman via EV wrote:

Y’mean like the cord and plug I wired to go into the dryer outlet… with a 15 kW 
generator on the other end? :-)

I am careful to follow a certain sequence that begins with throwing the main 
breaker and genset breaker, then plugging the plug into the dryer outlet and 
the genset BEFORE turning on the genset breaker.

That does make it hard to know when the power comes back on, though. Gotta keep 
an eye on the neighbour’s lights. I’ve thought about sticking a little NE-2 
bulb or Sonalert on the utility side of the main breaker, but haven’t worked up 
the nerve yet.



That is almost guaranteed to be illegal and HIGHLY dangerous.  Your 
electric utility would scream bloody murder over that arrangement 
because there is no positive transfer that prevents any possibility of 
your generator feeding back towards the utility.  If you happen to miss 
in your procedure, have a breaker that fails to open when the operating 
level is thrown (I personally have had a couple of those - one being a 
main), or someone bumps the wrong breaker, you kill people - notably 
utility workers who are working on a de-energized line (or at least they 
have every reason to believe so).  Or worse, some citizen who does 
something stupid with what they though was a de-energized line that was 
laying on the ground before emergency services or the electric utility 
arrives.  Remember that it's not just 120/240 volts that we're talking 
about, but whatever primary distribution your neighborhood uses once 
your power goes through the transformer that feeds your house and tries 
to light up the line.


You MUST have a transfer switch that transfers your house load from the 
utility to your generator.  Depending on you to follow a procedure to 
switch breakers in the right order is not safe, and illegal.


As a long time electric utility worker and the son of an electric 
utility worker (although neither of us worked in that side of the 
utilities), please do not wire up your generator in any way that does 
not include a positive transfer switch that prevents ANY possibility of 
energizing the utility service from your generator.


BTW, positive transfer does not have to be anything fancy.  For example 
a few days ago I had a scheduled 10 hour outage at my house.  My 
"transfer" was to unplug the input cords to the two UPSes from the wall 
and plug them into the generator.  Same thing with the air and water 
pumps for the six aquariums.  Of course that did not pick up the rest of 
the house...


--
73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
Ofc:  818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395


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Re: [EVDL] What You Need To Know To Wire A Garage EVSE

[Jan Steinman via EV]

> From: EVDL Administrator via EV 
> 
> Nor do I see much hazard in adding a cord and plug.

Y’mean like the cord and plug I wired to go into the dryer outlet… with a 15 kW 
generator on the other end? :-)

I am careful to follow a certain sequence that begins with throwing the main 
breaker and genset breaker, then plugging the plug into the dryer outlet and 
the genset BEFORE turning on the genset breaker.

That does make it hard to know when the power comes back on, though. Gotta keep 
an eye on the neighbour’s lights. I’ve thought about sticking a little NE-2 
bulb or Sonalert on the utility side of the main breaker, but haven’t worked up 
the nerve yet.

 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op  

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