Re: Climate models
On 16 Apr 2014, at 01:14, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Pair bonding. A concept offered up by Ashly Montague. I don't think that many women would be thrilled with polygamy. They do much better with serial relationships. Why, no. They would love that. Look: http://www.mjemagazine.com/meet-the-woman-who-has-five-husbands-and-they-are-all-brothers/ Bruno -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, Apr 15, 2014 12:38 pm Subject: Re: Climate models On 4/15/2014 1:59 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Poligamy is common when big disparity of wealt, in low density coutries in harsh conditions or in societies where violence is increasing Do you thing that these conditions are in the aspirations of the civilized society?. The fact that we are towards it. I think that the aspiration of civilisation should be to allow humans to dream and transcend their current condition. I imagine a more advances civilisation being much less concerned with sexual norms. Polygamy, freely chosen, is probably a better system than serial monogamy - which is what tends to be practiced by wealthy men in the west. Robert Wright makes the case polygamy was banned in the west as a populist measure to ensure that almost all men could find a wife; which makes for a more stable society. But it actually restricts women's choices and goes against biological evolution. He quotes Gloria Steinem as having said, I'd rather be Robert Kennedy Jr's second wife than Pee Wee Herman's first. Of course polygamy as actually practiced in cults and Afghanistan tends to be forced on very young girls, and not freely chosen. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Climate models
If all men were brothers, would you want your sister to marry one? (Or something like that...) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 15 Apr 2014, at 22:41, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is far-fetched. I see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the reasons you mention. OK. But I doubt it. Synesthete people seems to have an abnormal wiring of the brain connecting parts which are not connected in other people, and they are usually handicaped by their ability. It is very stable, if they see the number 4 yellow, when asked again 20 years later, it is the same color. I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language. Maybe so for the development of direct symbols, but I can imagine it playing a role in the emergence of more abstract ideas. Even in modern times we can see this at work, to a degree. Many of the cultural ideas that originated in the 60s, and that still reverberate today, were unearthed by using LSD, cannabis, etc. I find the effects of psychoactive substances particularly interesting for AI research, because they show a profound way in which our brains differ from the current model of computation. Computer programs typically crash if we mess with their computational substrate. We flood the brain with an inhibitor for a certain type of receptor or with the analogue of some transmitter and it doesn't collapse. It does all kinds of interesting things, some good and some bad. Sometimes you get the dark side of the moon -- if musical talent is already present, of course :) I do think psychedelic, and other brain pertubation can help to solve problem. Some technic in optimization and in AI are based on that. You can enhance the finding of a minimum by shaking a surface with some ball on it. The brain is highly redundant, with the information distributed and slightly different, so by blocking some information path, new path can be found, and sometimes with a difference (and sometime with some benefices). The brain do drugs all the time, it is part of our functioning, and indeed animals drugs themselves very often, and plants exploits this to manipulate insects. It looks also that the brain might have some hardcoded solution to support abnormal stress, like in grave illness and near death, and so some drugs can perhaps trigger those dormant programs, and people can get idea of what happens in such stress, or near death. That is consistent with evolution, because your species can benefit from particular abilities to survive in those high stress conditions, and it can help for surviving trauma in aggressive animals (like human), so that it can benefits to some population of genes. Such change of brains in high stress have been evidenced in mammals like mice and rats. Some animal brains secrete endo-tranquilizer when a prey is captured by some predator. Now there are millions of drugs, and they trigger different responses. Benefits and harms necessitate case by case analysis. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 12:32 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 3:19 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 April 2014 09:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: What cultural ideas would those be? Get out of Viet Nam? Civil rights for blacks? The pill? Plus (off the top of my head (man)) - sexual freedom and equality, the anti-establishment vibe seen in Occupy, Wikileaks etc, freedom of expression, a raft of artistic ideas too wide for this margin to contain... I can see attributing some artistic ideas to the psychedelics, but I think the anti-establishment vibe came from the Viet Nam war and sexual freedom came from the pill. Ideals of equality drove the civil rights movement and its natural extension was to equal rights for women. I don't see any useful insights as having come from psychedelics. Sure, their effect is interesting from a neurophysiological standpoint - but so are brain lesions. Unfortunately we can't analyse this issue scientifically without risk being thrown in a cage for many years. This leads me to conclude that there might be something to be said for the anti-establishment-vibe-inducing properties of psychadelics. :) Especially given that there is no evidence whatsoever of any serious social or health ill-efects associated with the use of such drugs. For what it's worth, Francis Creek, Carl Sagan and Steve Jobs might disagree with you. Telmo. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
The Apple Macintosh computer - conceived by Steves Jobs and Wozniak in 1974 while stoned on cannabis. kim On 16 Apr 2014, at 8:19 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 April 2014 09:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: What cultural ideas would those be? Get out of Viet Nam? Civil rights for blacks? The pill? Plus (off the top of my head (man)) - sexual freedom and equality, the anti-establishment vibe seen in Occupy, Wikileaks etc, freedom of expression, a raft of artistic ideas too wide for this margin to contain... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 16 April 2014 20:12, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: The Apple Macintosh computer - conceived by Steves Jobs and Wozniak in 1974 while stoned on cannabis. Named for the Apple Record label? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Climate models
On 15 Apr 2014, at 18:59, meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2014 8:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Read what I wrote. Machine intelligence is not a question of brickology. Intelligence is not something which can be engineered. It is a question of exploration of some reality, and it is a question of us being sufficiently inetlligent to recognize intelligence here and there along that exploration. Are you saying we cannot build an intelligent machine? Not provably so, unless you agree or bet, or consider, that universal machine, or Löbian machine, are already intelligent. But that intelligence is more discovered (in arithmetic) than a human construction per se, imo. Or are you saying we can only build a machine capable of learning to be intelligent? Yes, like in nature. The more a species is clever, the less the infant brain is hardwired, and the longer his learning period (infancy) appears to be. I see intelligence as an ability to learn and to change our mind. Adult is the phase when we apply stupidly the intelligence that we might have developed in the childhood. Childhood is when you are incompetent and intelligent. Adulthood is when you become competent and stupid, so to speak. Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
Oddly enough the Wikipedia article on the development of Apple Inc doesn't mention drugs, and the idea of the Mac is attributed to Jef Raskin. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 11:42 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 1:41 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is far-fetched. I see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the reasons you mention. I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language. Maybe so for the development of direct symbols, but I can imagine it playing a role in the emergence of more abstract ideas. Even in modern times we can see this at work, to a degree. Many of the cultural ideas that originated in the 60s, and that still reverberate today, were unearthed by using LSD, cannabis, etc. What cultural ideas would those be? Get out of Viet Nam? Civil rights for blacks? The pill? I find the effects of psychoactive substances particularly interesting for AI research, because they show a profound way in which our brains differ from the current model of computation. Computer programs typically crash if we mess with their computational substrate. We flood the brain with an inhibitor for a certain type of receptor or with the analogue of some transmitter and it doesn't collapse. It does all kinds of interesting things, some good and some bad. Sometimes you get the dark side of the moon -- if musical talent is already present, of course :) I think the analogy is wrong. Brains compute by chemical transmitters. So when we interfere with the chemistry, its analogous to changing program steps in a digital computer - not to messing with the substrate (e.g. silicon). Here I meant the substrate as the von Neumann model -- which is reflected in modern computer languages. In any case, messing with a transistor, a memory bit, the compiler or the source code mostly results in the same kind of critical failures and almost never leads to a different or interesting mode of operation. A brain is a neural network. It can (probably) be simulated by a digital computer; but the simulation will be a low level. At that level LSD would be simulated as changing some connection strengths. It can be argued that a computer program is a function network. It could also be argued that a neural network is also a function network. I would say that these things are incidental, and the big deal is the network topology, and the algorithms that lead to the topology. Artificial neural networks or not, we don't really know how to produce functional networks with the same type of adaptability that we observe in the brain, nor do we really know how to do general-purpose computing outside of the von Neumann model (or maybe lambda calculus, with the old lisp machines). Even changing things a bit, like what happens with modern GPUs, we lose generality. Telmo. Brent Telmo. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Video of VCR
On 15 Apr 2014, at 21:11, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:21:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Apr 2014, at 21:47, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, April 13, 2014 12:44:37 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: snip That my sun in law might not be a zombie/doll. Comp assumes that the brain is Turing emulable at some level of description. What does the brain being Turing emulable mean in this context other than that consciousness is generated by computation? consciousness is generated by computation is misleading, especially in the Aristotelian era. How will people understand that consciousness generates the appearance of matter, without any matter, if they visualize consciousness as a brain product. I don't even say that the brain is Turing emulable, comp only asks for a level of description of the brain so that I would genuinely survive or experience if a simulation of my brain (which by itself might be a non Turing emulable object) at that level. We're not talking about what people will understand though, we're talking about the basic claim of comp. The brain is only involved because you bring it in to allow Church-Turing to build Frankensun. If sun in law is not a doll, and if he has a brain that is being emulated by a Turing machine, then that means that the computation of the machine is generating his consciousness. Not really. You reason in the aristotelian picture, where brain are real object, etc. The classical comp picture is a priori very different, you have a 3p ocean of computations in arithmetic, and a consciousness particularization process made in play by natural coherence conditions among some infinite sets of computations. I make no claims at all on the objectivity of brains, I only am reading back to you what your position seems to be to me. If you introduce the brain's presumed partial Turing emulability into the discussion, then I presume you do so to argue that emulability supports the sufficiency of computation to generate consciousness. It does not generate consciousness, which exists in Platonia. The brain only make that consciousness relatively manifestable. The ability of computation to generate consciousness is the sole aspect of computationalism/digital functionalism that I disagree with (and all of the consequences of it). If you are not saying that comp generates consciousness, then I'm not sure what you have been arguing all this time. I don't argue that my sun-in-law is conscious. I argue only that your argument that he is not conscious is not valid, nor even existing. It is based on your assumption that formal things cannot yield informal things, which is provably false for machine. Ah! So if my sun in law get his original carbon back, he would be conscious again? And even retrospectively so, as you agree his behavior remains invariant. It has nothing to do with carbon. If his original brain is dead, there is no going back. Repeating statements does not prove them. Of course with comp there are infinitely many going back possible. It seems like I just gave a perfectly legitimate, clear, and common sense challenge, to which your response has no relation. You're talking about remote and obscure technologies, but I'm using a simple example from ordinary human experience. To talk with me you are using that very technology. It is hardly remote, and I guess you find it obscure because you don't study it. I'm using a lot of genetic and neurochemical technology also, but I would still find the suggestion that I should study microbiology in order to understand how to be myself to be a dodge. By definition of comp, you are not a dodge when you get an artificial brain, or an artificial kidney, heart, whatever, unless you are copied at some inadequate level. You keep saying that, and I keep explaining that I do know exactly what you mean, but that in fact I have no confusion at all between the difference between saying 'comp should be ruled out' and 'comp is not proved'. I know the difference and I still say comp should be ruled out, and for good reason. The reason is not one that is understandable to your sun in law though, just as the shadow of water doesn't understand why it is not water. I will skip the irrelevant metaphors too. If you start from comp, there is no possibility of refuting it. That is the nature of computation - consistency, and consistency to the point of absurdity, error, and catastrophe. To refute X, you have to start from X and get a contrdiction, without adding anything to X. If not, you are just advertizing another theory. I think that we can pretty well figure it out by the differences between automatic systems and human resources. Machines make perfect slaves, humans make terrible slaves. OK, so you agree that we can enslave my
Re: Video of VCR
On 15 Apr 2014, at 19:10, Craig Weinberg wrote: Numbers are not creative, they are recursive. Universal number are complete with respect of recursiveness, and this is arguably creative, and that is why Emil Post used the term creative to describe them. They can refute all normative theories that we can do about them. So recursiveness or recursive enumerability suggests creativity. What you say is not more than: machine are not clever, they are machine. It is only your same begging of the question. I conclude from this, and after this long exchange that you have just no argument. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 16 Apr 2014, at 10:12, Kim Jones wrote: The Apple Macintosh computer - conceived by Steves Jobs and Wozniak in 1974 while stoned on cannabis. It was the invention of the Apple (the Apple I, and the famous Apple II, much before the Apple became the Macintosh). That changes the world, indeed. I read also that Steve Jobs got the main idea stoned, but that kind of facts are hard to verify., although quite plausible. I saw a video on how many inventions and creations have been done by people admitting smoking cannabis at the invention/ discovery time. It is still hard to be sure they would not invent them without cannabis, but I find plausible it helped them, if only to calm the invention/discovery stress. Bruno kim On 16 Apr 2014, at 8:19 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 April 2014 09:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: What cultural ideas would those be? Get out of Viet Nam? Civil rights for blacks? The pill? Plus (off the top of my head (man)) - sexual freedom and equality, the anti-establishment vibe seen in Occupy, Wikileaks etc, freedom of expression, a raft of artistic ideas too wide for this margin to contain... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Apr 2014, at 22:41, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is far-fetched. I see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the reasons you mention. OK. But I doubt it. Synesthete people seems to have an abnormal wiring of the brain connecting parts which are not connected in other people, and they are usually handicaped by their ability. It is very stable, if they see the number 4 yellow, when asked again 20 years later, it is the same color. True, but here it's perhaps important to make a distinction between permanent synesthesia and the temporary kind that can be caused by psychedelics. I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language. Maybe so for the development of direct symbols, but I can imagine it playing a role in the emergence of more abstract ideas. Even in modern times we can see this at work, to a degree. Many of the cultural ideas that originated in the 60s, and that still reverberate today, were unearthed by using LSD, cannabis, etc. I find the effects of psychoactive substances particularly interesting for AI research, because they show a profound way in which our brains differ from the current model of computation. Computer programs typically crash if we mess with their computational substrate. We flood the brain with an inhibitor for a certain type of receptor or with the analogue of some transmitter and it doesn't collapse. It does all kinds of interesting things, some good and some bad. Sometimes you get the dark side of the moon -- if musical talent is already present, of course :) I do think psychedelic, and other brain pertubation can help to solve problem. Some technic in optimization and in AI are based on that. You can enhance the finding of a minimum by shaking a surface with some ball on it. The brain is highly redundant, with the information distributed and slightly different, so by blocking some information path, new path can be found, and sometimes with a difference (and sometime with some benefices). The brain do drugs all the time, it is part of our functioning, and indeed animals drugs themselves very often, and plants exploits this to manipulate insects. It looks also that the brain might have some hardcoded solution to support abnormal stress, like in grave illness and near death, and so some drugs can perhaps trigger those dormant programs, and people can get idea of what happens in such stress, or near death. That is consistent with evolution, because your species can benefit from particular abilities to survive in those high stress conditions, and it can help for surviving trauma in aggressive animals (like human), so that it can benefits to some population of genes. Such change of brains in high stress have been evidenced in mammals like mice and rats. Some animal brains secrete endo-tranquilizer when a prey is captured by some predator. Now there are millions of drugs, and they trigger different responses. Benefits and harms necessitate case by case analysis. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
There is also the issue of dosage btw. Most psychedelics will not just automatically take the subject to a full blown mystical thing; which is quite mainstream view by now, for what it's worth: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/04/health/lsd-reconsidered-for-therapy.html?_r=0 Most people I know don't venture into full dose territory, and still speak as if they could infer what's going on there by knowing the lower doses, which is simply false. The dose spectrum is large and I don't think anybody has any idea of what losing control in the full dose sense, of say LSD, really means. It is revealing and expected, that anxiety increased for the low dose patients of the study I linked to. At lower dose, what the article does not mention, is tendency towards increased sensory awareness, nasal decongestion, increased sexual appetite etc. The exact opposite of being stoned, which is much more plausible as candidate for conferring some advantage: more sex that is more fun, increased efficacy of hunting etc. And because of psilocybin muchroom's prevalence close to uhmm.. the fecal deposits of certain ungulate animals, it would make more sense to follow the animals that provide substrate for an advantage conferring mushroom, rather than following herds of animals that don't. So our relation with cows and mushrooms as seen in Algerian paleolithic cave paintings if I remember correctly, is not that weird. This is conjecture, of course, but why cows in every culture on earth and not the other, just as nourishing and useful animals? Some mushroom could be part of that answer. Other than decreasing anxiety for terminally ill, there is also good evidence for MDMA as helping with PTSD, Cannabis as useful for pain and apetite stimulation with cancer patients and a variety of other uses. People also seem to forget the relation to dopamine and serotonin systems of the brain, where psychedelic studies have made considerable contribution; even in design of new drugs. If you say psychedelics are trivial, did nothing for research in medicine, resulted in nothing, check maps.org or for concrete articles: https://www.erowid.org/references/refs.php?C=Hof PGC On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 1:49 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Apr 2014, at 22:41, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is far-fetched. I see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the reasons you mention. OK. But I doubt it. Synesthete people seems to have an abnormal wiring of the brain connecting parts which are not connected in other people, and they are usually handicaped by their ability. It is very stable, if they see the number 4 yellow, when asked again 20 years later, it is the same color. True, but here it's perhaps important to make a distinction between permanent synesthesia and the temporary kind that can be caused by psychedelics. I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language. Maybe so for the development of direct symbols, but I can imagine it playing a role in the emergence of more abstract ideas. Even in modern times we can see this at work, to a degree. Many of the cultural ideas that originated in the 60s, and that still reverberate today, were unearthed by using LSD, cannabis, etc. I find the effects of psychoactive substances particularly interesting for AI research, because they show a profound way in which our brains differ from the current model of computation. Computer programs typically crash if we mess with their computational substrate. We flood the brain with an inhibitor for a certain type of receptor or with the analogue of some transmitter and it doesn't collapse. It does all kinds of interesting things, some good and some bad. Sometimes you get the dark side of the moon -- if musical talent is already present, of course :) I do think psychedelic, and other brain pertubation can help to solve problem. Some technic in optimization and in AI are based on that. You can enhance the finding of a minimum by shaking a surface with some ball on it. The brain is highly redundant, with the information distributed and slightly different, so by blocking some information path, new path can be found,
Re: Climate models
The little boy at the math blackboard got the arithmetic wrong. The little boy turned to his teacher and said: 'Yes, it's the wrong answer, but what does it matter, if all men are brothers? -Jack Handey -Original Message- From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, Apr 16, 2014 3:57 am Subject: Re: Climate models If all men were brothers, would you want your sister to marry one? (Or something like that...) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Climate models
Some of it is motivated from females needing to survive and look after their children. How much wealth, be it hunted game, or IPO stock options. Unless the male is very wealthy, there is no advantage for the female to share a mail, Some do, and they are the exception. There are logical reasons why monogamy has succeeded, and polygamy and polyandry to recede. This may be changing? Unless a man pair bonds with a women, and we had the option, when you to have sex with multiple females, say within the same month, we would opt for it. The version of planet Earth is not in this universe, though, somewhere in Hugh Everett-ville. -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, Apr 16, 2014 3:43 am Subject: Re: Climate models On 16 Apr 2014, at 01:14, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Pair bonding. A concept offered up by Ashly Montague. I don't think that many women would be thrilled with polygamy. They do much better with serial relationships. Why, no. They would love that. Look: http://www.mjemagazine.com/meet-the-woman-who-has-five-husbands-and-they-are-all-brothers/ Bruno -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, Apr 15, 2014 12:38 pm Subject: Re: Climate models On 4/15/2014 1:59 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Poligamy is common when big disparity of wealt, inlow density coutries in harsh conditions or in societieswhere violence is increasing Do you thing that theseconditions are in the aspirations of the civilizedsociety?. The fact that we are towards it. I think that the aspiration of civilisation should be toallow humans to dream and transcend their current condition. Iimagine a more advances civilisation being much less concernedwith sexual norms. Polygamy, freely chosen, is probably a better system than serial monogamy - which is what tends to be practiced by wealthy men in the west. Robert Wright makes the case polygamy was banned in the west as a populist measure to ensure that almost all men could find a wife; which makes for a more stable society. But it actually restricts women's choices and goes against biological evolution. He quotes Gloria Steinem as having said, I'd rather be Robert Kennedy Jr's second wife than Pee Wee Herman's first. Of course polygamy as actually practiced in cults and Afghanistan tends to be forced on very young girls, and not freely chosen. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 16 Apr 2014, at 13:49, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Apr 2014, at 22:41, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. Telmo. I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to McKenna's stoned ape theory, but I can't find anything... That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making social animal is huge. I agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is far-fetched. I see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the reasons you mention. OK. But I doubt it. Synesthete people seems to have an abnormal wiring of the brain connecting parts which are not connected in other people, and they are usually handicaped by their ability. It is very stable, if they see the number 4 yellow, when asked again 20 years later, it is the same color. True, but here it's perhaps important to make a distinction between permanent synesthesia and the temporary kind that can be caused by psychedelics. OK. I think we agree that psychotropic substance play some role in the development of life in animal. Then it is even more obvious for civilsation, if you look at the story of wine, (blood's christ!), tobacco, etc. Now I have not studied enough the relation between language and synestesia, and the relation between psychotropic and synesthesia to be able to conclude anything, actually. Bruno I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse the development of language. Maybe so for the development of direct symbols, but I can imagine it playing a role in the emergence of more abstract ideas. Even in modern times we can see this at work, to a degree. Many of the cultural ideas that originated in the 60s, and that still reverberate today, were unearthed by using LSD, cannabis, etc. I find the effects of psychoactive substances particularly interesting for AI research, because they show a profound way in which our brains differ from the current model of computation. Computer programs typically crash if we mess with their computational substrate. We flood the brain with an inhibitor for a certain type of receptor or with the analogue of some transmitter and it doesn't collapse. It does all kinds of interesting things, some good and some bad. Sometimes you get the dark side of the moon -- if musical talent is already present, of course :) I do think psychedelic, and other brain pertubation can help to solve problem. Some technic in optimization and in AI are based on that. You can enhance the finding of a minimum by shaking a surface with some ball on it. The brain is highly redundant, with the information distributed and slightly different, so by blocking some information path, new path can be found, and sometimes with a difference (and sometime with some benefices). The brain do drugs all the time, it is part of our functioning, and indeed animals drugs themselves very often, and plants exploits this to manipulate insects. It looks also that the brain might have some hardcoded solution to support abnormal stress, like in grave illness and near death, and so some drugs can perhaps trigger those dormant programs, and people can get idea of what happens in such stress, or near death. That is consistent with evolution, because your species can benefit from particular abilities to survive in those high stress conditions, and it can help for surviving trauma in aggressive animals (like human), so that it can benefits to some population of genes. Such change of brains in high stress have been evidenced in mammals like mice and rats. Some animal brains secrete endo-tranquilizer when a prey is captured by some predator. Now there are millions of drugs, and they trigger different responses. Benefits and harms necessitate case by case analysis. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
Re: Video of VCR
On Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:46:52 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Apr 2014, at 21:11, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:21:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Apr 2014, at 21:47, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, April 13, 2014 12:44:37 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: snip That my sun in law might not be a zombie/doll. Comp assumes that the brain is Turing emulable at some level of description. What does the brain being Turing emulable mean in this context other than that consciousness is generated by computation? consciousness is generated by computation is misleading, especially in the Aristotelian era. How will people understand that consciousness generates the appearance of matter, without any matter, if they visualize consciousness as a brain product. I don't even say that the brain is Turing emulable, comp only asks for a level of description of the brain so that I would genuinely survive or experience if a simulation of my brain (which by itself might be a non Turing emulable object) at that level. We're not talking about what people will understand though, we're talking about the basic claim of comp. The brain is only involved because you bring it in to allow Church-Turing to build Frankensun. If sun in law is not a doll, and if he has a brain that is being emulated by a Turing machine, then that means that the computation of the machine is generating his consciousness. Not really. You reason in the aristotelian picture, where brain are real object, etc. The classical comp picture is a priori very different, you have a 3p ocean of computations in arithmetic, and a consciousness particularization process made in play by natural coherence conditions among some infinite sets of computations. I make no claims at all on the objectivity of brains, I only am reading back to you what your position seems to be to me. If you introduce the brain's presumed partial Turing emulability into the discussion, then I presume you do so to argue that emulability supports the sufficiency of computation to generate consciousness. It does not generate consciousness, which exists in Platonia. The brain only make that consciousness relatively manifestable. What generates Platonia? The ability of computation to generate consciousness is the sole aspect of computationalism/digital functionalism that I disagree with (and all of the consequences of it). If you are not saying that comp generates consciousness, then I'm not sure what you have been arguing all this time. I don't argue that my sun-in-law is conscious. I argue only that your argument that he is not conscious is not valid, nor even existing. It is based on your assumption that formal things cannot yield informal things, which is provably false for machine. I do not assume that formal things cannot yield informal things, I assume that informal things take on a formal appearance from a distance, which means that a copy of a formal thing can only copy a superficial part of the total informal (as the total informal is ultimately 'prime' as well as 'primeness'). Ah! So if my sun in law get his original carbon back, he would be conscious again? And even retrospectively so, as you agree his behavior remains invariant. It has nothing to do with carbon. If his original brain is dead, there is no going back. Repeating statements does not prove them. Of course with comp there are infinitely many going back possible. Another area where comp refers to a theoretical universe in which nobody actually lives. ... Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Video of VCR
On Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:46:52 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Apr 2014, at 21:11, Craig Weinberg wrote: It seems like I just gave a perfectly legitimate, clear, and common sense challenge, to which your response has no relation. You're talking about remote and obscure technologies, but I'm using a simple example from ordinary human experience. To talk with me you are using that very technology. It is hardly remote, and I guess you find it obscure because you don't study it. I'm using a lot of genetic and neurochemical technology also, but I would still find the suggestion that I should study microbiology in order to understand how to be myself to be a dodge. By definition of comp, you are not a dodge when you get an artificial brain, or an artificial kidney, heart, whatever, unless you are copied at some inadequate level. Yes, but that's because comp cannot conceive of a brain as being different from a kidney, heart, etc, but in reality, of course, the difference between a person's brain and anything else in the universe is of the highest possible significance, while the difference between kidneys, hearts etc is irrelevant except with respect to function. If we put on the blinders of comp, we fail to see that consciousness entails personal presence above all other functions, and that presence is not a function or configuration of numbers at all. You keep saying that, and I keep explaining that I do know exactly what you mean, but that in fact I have no confusion at all between the difference between saying 'comp should be ruled out' and 'comp is not proved'. I know the difference and I still say comp should be ruled out, and for good reason. The reason is not one that is understandable to your sun in law though, just as the shadow of water doesn't understand why it is not water. I will skip the irrelevant metaphors too. Too, bad, they are probably the only way that we can understand the reality of nature. If you start from comp, there is no possibility of refuting it. That is the nature of computation - consistency, and consistency to the point of absurdity, error, and catastrophe. To refute X, you have to start from X and get a contrdiction, I am starting from X. As soon as we come to aesthetic experience, we get a contradiction. without adding anything to X. If not, you are just advertizing another theory. I think my argument is pretty straightforward. If computation can exist without consciousness, then there is no room in computationalism for consciousness. All computations can be performed unconsciously, if any can be. I think that we can pretty well figure it out by the differences between automatic systems and human resources. Machines make perfect slaves, humans make terrible slaves. OK, so you agree that we can enslave my sun-in-law. Nice! Sure. What good is a machine that is not a slave? Well, thanks for the warning. Numbers are not creative, they are recursive. Universal number are complete with respect of recursiveness, and this is arguably creative, Creative how? and that is why Emil Post used the term creative to describe them. They can refute all normative theories that we can do about them. So recursiveness or recursive enumerability suggests creativity. We don't know that recursiveness suggests creativity, or if it does, that may be only in response to the creativity of our inquiry. What you say is not more than: machine are not clever, they are machine. It is only your same begging of the question. Machines are clever, but they have no understanding, no presence...not because they are machines, but because machines are maps with no territory. I conclude from this, and after this long exchange that you have just no argument. I have the same conclusion about your argument. Craig Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Climate models
On 17 April 2014 02:36, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Some of it is motivated from females needing to survive and look after their children. How much wealth, be it hunted game, or IPO stock options. Unless the male is very wealthy, there is no advantage for the female to share a mail, Some do, and they are the exception. There are logical reasons why monogamy has succeeded, and polygamy and polyandry to recede. This may be changing? Unless a man pair bonds with a women, and we had the option, when you to have sex with multiple females, say within the same month, we would opt for it. The version of planet Earth is not in this universe, though, somewhere in Hugh Everett-ville. Yes, polygamy can only work where food is plentiful etc, otherwise the monogamy genes will come to dominate when children need more than one parent to rear them successfully. If men can wander off and still propagate their genes, they will do so, because that becomes a successful strategy - as some men do, of course... This is supposed to account for the difference in sexual attitudes between hot and cold countries, although some would consider that racist / non-PC ... still, seems logical nevertheless. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Climate models
On 17 April 2014 02:48, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: The little boy at the math blackboard got the arithmetic wrong. The little boy turned to his teacher and said: 'Yes, it's the wrong answer, but what does it matter, if all men are brothers? -Jack Handey -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Climate models
Polygamy is common for most mammals On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 3:51 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 April 2014 02:36, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Some of it is motivated from females needing to survive and look after their children. How much wealth, be it hunted game, or IPO stock options. Unless the male is very wealthy, there is no advantage for the female to share a mail, Some do, and they are the exception. There are logical reasons why monogamy has succeeded, and polygamy and polyandry to recede. This may be changing? Unless a man pair bonds with a women, and we had the option, when you to have sex with multiple females, say within the same month, we would opt for it. The version of planet Earth is not in this universe, though, somewhere in Hugh Everett-ville. Yes, polygamy can only work where food is plentiful etc, otherwise the monogamy genes will come to dominate when children need more than one parent to rear them successfully. If men can wander off and still propagate their genes, they will do so, because that becomes a successful strategy - as some men do, of course... This is supposed to account for the difference in sexual attitudes between hot and cold countries, although some would consider that racist / non-PC ... still, seems logical nevertheless. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/-LyjqBLxxFY/unsubscribe. To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Kindest Regards, Stephen Paul King Senior Researcher Mobile: (864) 567-3099 stephe...@provensecure.com http://www.provensecure.us/ “This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, notify sender immediately and delete this message immediately.” -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 4/16/2014 1:12 AM, Kim Jones wrote: The Apple Macintosh computer - conceived by Steves Jobs and Wozniak in 1974 while stoned on cannabis. What exactly was conceived? The mouse - from Xerox park? The OS, a single-user form of Unix? Color; the Amiga already had it? The combined monitor/processor? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Climate models
On 4/16/2014 1:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Yes, like in nature. The more a species is clever, the less the infant brain is hardwired, and the longer his learning period (infancy) appears to be. I see intelligence as an ability to learn and to change our mind. Adult is the phase when we apply stupidly the intelligence that we might have developed in the childhood. Childhood is when you are incompetent and intelligent. Adulthood is when you become competent and stupid, so to speak. Which is why Nietzsche says you must be a camel before being a lion and a lion before being a child. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 4/16/2014 6:38 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: If you say psychedelics are trivial, did nothing for research in medicine, resulted in nothing, check maps.org http://maps.org or for concrete articles: But the question was whether the produced useful ideas in those who took them - not in whether they were useful for studying brains function, which seems to be what all these papers are about. https://www.erowid.org/references/refs.php?C=Hof Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Climate models
I don't know genetics as well as I should, but I think, whether its psychological, or genetic psychological, or something else? If women are provided birth control, and a good deal of wealth, independent of a supplying male, then a women is free from desiring monogamy, exclusively. Having said that, I remember reading a study from New Scientist, noting that without emotional involvement, a women tends to spiral into depression if they have a lot of sexual relations with different male partners. The article did not indicate that ALL women experienced unhappiness, but that most who caroused as a man likes to, did get depressed. There are, of course, women who can have lots of lovers, without emotional distress, but eventually, but apparently, they are the a minority. Now that we've solved that, on to uniting quantum mechanics with gravity. Yes, polygamy can only work where food is plentiful etc, otherwise the monogamy genes will come to dominate when children need more than one parent to rear them successfully. If men can wander off and still propagate their genes, they will do so, because that becomes a successful strategy - as some men do, of course... This is supposed to account for the difference in sexual attitudes between hot and cold countries, although some would consider that racist / non-PC ... still, seems logical nevertheless. -Original Message- From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, Apr 16, 2014 3:51 pm Subject: Re: Climate models On 17 April 2014 02:36, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Some of it is motivated from females needing to survive and look after their children. How much wealth, be it hunted game, or IPO stock options. Unless the male is very wealthy, there is no advantage for the female to share a mail, Some do, and they are the exception. There are logical reasons why monogamy has succeeded, and polygamy and polyandry to recede. This may be changing? Unless a man pair bonds with a women, and we had the option, when you to have sex with multiple females, say within the same month, we would opt for it. The version of planet Earth is not in this universe, though, somewhere in Hugh Everett-ville. Yes, polygamy can only work where food is plentiful etc, otherwise the monogamy genes will come to dominate when children need more than one parent to rear them successfully. If men can wander off and still propagate their genes, they will do so, because that becomes a successful strategy - as some men do, of course... This is supposed to account for the difference in sexual attitudes between hot and cold countries, although some would consider that racist / non-PC ... still, seems logical nevertheless. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Climate models
God is dead-Nietzsche Nietzsche is dead-God yeah, I know, but I had to post it. -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, Apr 16, 2014 4:00 pm Subject: Re: Climate models On 4/16/2014 1:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Yes, like in nature. The more a species is clever, the lessthe infant brain is hardwired, and the longer his learningperiod (infancy) appears to be. I see intelligence as an abilityto learn and to change our mind. Adult is the phase when weapply stupidly the intelligence that we might have developedin the childhood. Childhood is when you are incompetent and intelligent.Adulthood is when you become competent and stupid, so to speak. Which is why Nietzsche says you must be a camel before being a lion and a lion before being a child. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Climate models
On 17 April 2014 07:58, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Polygamy is common for most mammals Because most mammals don't extend their range from Africa to the Arctic. As I said, there's a tendency towards polygamy in hot countries, but it wouldn't work for humans in cold ones because more parental investment is required to rear offspring successfully. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Climate models
On 17 April 2014 08:24, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: I don't know genetics as well as I should, but I think, whether its psychological, or genetic psychological, or something else? If women are provided birth control, and a good deal of wealth, independent of a supplying male, then a women is free from desiring monogamy, exclusively. Having said that, I remember reading a study from New Scientist, noting that without emotional involvement, a women tends to spiral into depression if they have a lot of sexual relations with different male partners. The article did not indicate that ALL women experienced unhappiness, but that most who caroused as a man likes to, did get depressed. Yup. Now that we've solved that, on to uniting quantum mechanics with gravity. Should be a doddle. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
Personally, I consider Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band to be a useful idea. But YMMV. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Climate models
On 4/16/2014 2:10 PM, LizR wrote: On 17 April 2014 07:58, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com mailto:stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Polygamy is common for most mammals Because most mammals don't extend their range from Africa to the Arctic. As I said, there's a tendency towards polygamy in hot countries, but it wouldn't work for humans in cold ones because more parental investment is required to rear offspring successfully. But even where the living is easy, polygamy creates the problem of young men without women - which tends to be socially destabilizing and favors raiding and warfare. Even in the muslim nations where a man can have as many as four wives, polygamy tends to be rare except where there is a lot of tribal warfare. In Utah where there are fundamentalist Mormon towns, boys sadly tend to be forced out on their own in their early teens. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 4/16/2014 2:17 PM, LizR wrote: Personally, I consider Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band to be a useful idea. But YMMV. Sure, I already excepted art - and not just music; a lot of writers and painters were inspired by alcohol and also by other 'drugs' like religion. Art is a way of communicating at a subconscious level and so it helps to be able to make synasthesia like connections between disparate things. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Climate models
On 17 April 2014 09:22, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/16/2014 2:10 PM, LizR wrote: On 17 April 2014 07:58, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Polygamy is common for most mammals Because most mammals don't extend their range from Africa to the Arctic. As I said, there's a tendency towards polygamy in hot countries, but it wouldn't work for humans in cold ones because more parental investment is required to rear offspring successfully. But even where the living is easy, polygamy creates the problem of young men without women - which tends to be socially destabilizing and favors raiding and warfare. Even in the muslim nations where a man can have as many as four wives, polygamy tends to be rare except where there is a lot of tribal warfare. In Utah where there are fundamentalist Mormon towns, boys sadly tend to be forced out on their own in their early teens. Brent, that isn't a but. Try starting with And when you want to add something to what I said, and save but for when you are disagreeing with something. OK? Please? To answer your point, that is probably true. People tend to go for short term gain, as any environmentalist will tell you. No one said polygamy will maximise global happiness, merely that it's a viable reproductive strategy in some situations. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 17 April 2014 09:30, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/16/2014 2:17 PM, LizR wrote: Personally, I consider Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band to be a useful idea. But YMMV. Sure, I already excepted art - and not just music; a lot of writers and painters were inspired by alcohol and also by other 'drugs' like religion. Art is a way of communicating at a subconscious level and so it helps to be able to make synasthesia like connections between disparate things. OK, if you excepted art, then we agree on that. So if poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world it would seem that drugs have at least indirectly influenced other aspects of the human condition. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 4/16/2014 2:34 PM, LizR wrote: On 17 April 2014 09:30, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/16/2014 2:17 PM, LizR wrote: Personally, I consider Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band to be a useful idea. But YMMV. Sure, I already excepted art - and not just music; a lot of writers and painters were inspired by alcohol and also by other 'drugs' like religion. Art is a way of communicating at a subconscious level and so it helps to be able to make synasthesia like connections between disparate things. OK, if you excepted art, then we agree on that. So if poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world it would seem that drugs have at least indirectly influenced other aspects of the human condition. That's a big if. Brent Poetry is the art of making the worse seem the better and the lesser the greater. --- David Hume -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 17 April 2014 09:38, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/16/2014 2:34 PM, LizR wrote: On 17 April 2014 09:30, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/16/2014 2:17 PM, LizR wrote: Personally, I consider Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band to be a useful idea. But YMMV. Sure, I already excepted art - and not just music; a lot of writers and painters were inspired by alcohol and also by other 'drugs' like religion. Art is a way of communicating at a subconscious level and so it helps to be able to make synasthesia like connections between disparate things. OK, if you excepted art, then we agree on that. So if poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world it would seem that drugs have at least indirectly influenced other aspects of the human condition. That's a big if. Only if you take it literally. (You really should allow Shelley some poetic licence!) If you take it as it was intended, it's fairly obvious that poets, writers, musicians and so on have a huge influence on culture, and hence on everyone else. (So drugs do at least have an indirect influence on the entire culture...) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Climate models
I had always thought NZ got a blast from Antarctica during part of the year? Having coal, first, then indoor heat from methane gas, and electric baseboard heating, we have diverged much from monogamy, me thinks, or my adolescence would have been considered paradisiacal, though not, I fear, from young females, so I am wondering if the temperature thing is spot on? Because most mammals don't extend their range from Africa to the Arctic. As I said, there's a tendency towards polygamy in hot countries, but it wouldn't work for humans in cold ones because more parental investment is required to rear offspring successfully. -Original Message- From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, Apr 16, 2014 5:10 pm Subject: Re: Climate models On 17 April 2014 07:58, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Polygamy is common for most mammals Because most mammals don't extend their range from Africa to the Arctic. As I said, there's a tendency towards polygamy in hot countries, but it wouldn't work for humans in cold ones because more parental investment is required to rear offspring successfully. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 12:58:49PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: On 4/16/2014 1:12 AM, Kim Jones wrote: The Apple Macintosh computer - conceived by Steves Jobs and Wozniak in 1974 while stoned on cannabis. What exactly was conceived? The mouse - from Xerox park? The OS, a single-user form of Unix? Color; the Amiga already had it? The combined monitor/processor? Brent Yeah - I think we've already dealt with it being the Apple computer being conceived in 1974, not the Mac (which came much later, around '82 or '83 IIRC, as a reaction to the expensive Lisa computer they were then trying to produce). On your other things - the mouse was invented in the '60s - I think at Xerox PARC IIRC. The original MacOS (up to and including MacOS 9) bore no relationship to Unix. Unix came to the Mac with the second coming of Jobs in the late '90s. The first Macs were back and white - the first colour Mac I saw was in 1986. PCs with colour monitors appeared around the same time, and as you mention, the Amiga was around by that time. As for the original Apple computer being conceived whilst Jobs was stoned - any evidence? -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Graham Hancock on The Plant Teachers (Banned TED Talk)
On 17 April 2014 07:58, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/16/2014 1:12 AM, Kim Jones wrote: The Apple Macintosh computer - conceived by Steves Jobs and Wozniak in 1974 while stoned on cannabis. What exactly was conceived? The mouse - from Xerox park? The OS, a single-user form of Unix? Color; the Amiga already had it? The combined monitor/processor? No it was more, Hey, what if everyone - you know ... had a big - computer...thing. Yeah man. Like wow! What were we talking about? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
