Re: Where are they?
On 26 April 2015 at 13:07, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Nonsense. He was in poor health and he had long suffered drastic swings in mood. Today he would be diagnosed as bipolar. He also had reason to be depressed because his ideas were rejected on the Continent. They were considered crazy because it was obviously impossible to derive irreversible processes from reversible physics. This was correct. Boltzmann smuggled the arrow of time into his calculations via an assumption concerning whether their velocities were correlated or independent (I forget the details, but Huw Price explained it very neatly so even I got it, at least at the time). However, that wasn't a reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater - thermodynamics still works, of course, if you can get a system into a low entropy state to start with. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Consciousness creates physics
Enjoy. Evgenii Donald David Hoffman, Chetan Prakash, Objects of consciousness, Frontiers in Psychology, v. 5, N 00577, 2014. http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyg.2014.00577/full “We develop the dynamics of interacting conscious agents, and study how the perception of objects and space-time can emerge from such dynamics. We show that one particular object, the quantum free particle, has a wave function that is identical in form to the harmonic functions that characterize the asymptotic dynamics of conscious agents; particles are vibrations not of strings but of interacting conscious agents. This allows us to reinterpret physical properties such as position, momentum, and energy as properties of interacting conscious agents, rather than as preexisting physical truths.” -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Step 3 - one step beyond?
On 26 Apr 2015, at 00:19, meekerdb wrote: On 4/25/2015 2:10 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Apr 2015, at 02:29, meekerdb wrote: On 4/24/2015 3:05 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-04-24 22:33 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net: On 4/24/2015 5:25 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: That seems odd to me. The starting point was that the brain was Turing emulable (at some substitution level). Which seems to suggest that consciousness (usually associated with brain function) is Turing emulable. If you find at the end or your chain of reasoning that consciousness isn't computable (not Turing emulable?), it seems that you might have hit a contradiction. ISTM, that's because you conflate the machinery (iow: the brain or a computer program running on a physical computer) necessary for consciousness to be able to manifest itself relatively to an environment and consciousness itself. How do we know the two are separable? What is consciousness that can't manifest itself? The environment (the body?) isn't another sentient being that can recognize the consciousness...is it? The thing is, under computationalism hypothesis, there are an infinity of valid implementations of a particular conscious moment, so consciousness itself is superverning on all of them, Does that mean each of them or does it mean the completed infinity of them? And what is a conscious moment? Is it just a state of a Turing machine implementing all these computations, or is it a long sequence of states. assuming the brain is turing emulable, any implementation of it is valid, and there are an infinity of equivalent implementations such as you have to make a distinction of a particular implementation of that conscious moment and the consciousness itself. Why? Is it because the different implementations will diverge after this particular state and will instantiate different conscious states. I don't see how there can be a concept of consciousness itself or a consciousness in this model. Consciousness is just a sequence of states (each which happen to be realized infinitely many times). Consciousness is 1p, and a sequence of states is 3p, so they can't be equal. Consciousness is more like a sequence of states related to a possible reality, and consciousness is more like a semantical fixed point in that relation, but it is not describable in any 3p terms. Semantical fixed point sounds close to intersubjective agreement which is the basis of empirical epistemology. I don't see the relationship between semantical fixed point, which involves one person, and intersubjective agreement, which involves more than one person. What semantical transformation is consciousness a fixed point of? Doubting, like with Descartes. ~ A, or ~A, with being one of the arithmetical hypostase. If it is G, the fixed point is consistency. If it is S4, the fixed point is not expressible. If it's not 3p describable how is it we seem to be talking about it. By assuming that consciousness is invariant for some digital substitution, we can approximate the first person by its memories, or by using Theaetetus' idea, which in the comp context also justify why we cannot defined it, yet meta-formalize it, and actually formlize it completely for machines that we assume to be correct (and usually much simpler than ourself). It is related to the fact that a machine with string provability ability (like ZF) can formalize the theology of a simpler machine, and then can lift it on herself, with some caution, as this can lead to inconsistency very easily. What I'm interested in is whether an AI will be conscious PA is already conscious, and can already describe its theology. and what that consciousness will be. ? I can already not do that with Brent Meeker. (Now, smoking salvia can give a pretty idea of what is like to PA, with an atemporal consciousness of a very dissociative type). But it is usually hard to have an idea of what is the consciousness of another, and even more for entities which are very different from us. For that I need a description of how the consciousness is realized. Normally, by giving a machine the universal ability, + enough induction axioms. I tend to think that RA is already conscious, may be in some trivial sense. But RA is mute on all interesting question. PA is less mute and can justify why it remains silent on some theological question. All that is explained in the AUDA part: of the part 2) of the sane04 paper: the interview of the machine. May be you can read it, and ask me question when you don't understand something. It is not a thing, it is phenomenological or epistemological. It concerns the soul, not the body, which helps only for the differentiation and the person relative partial control. ?? I define the soul by the knower, and I define the knower by the true believer, and I
Re: Where are they?
Uncertainty is not the same than the certainty of obliteration, as Boltzmann I suppose that he felt. Freemann Dyson tried to overcome the Boltzmannian conclussions not for a intellectual exercise, but as a serious treat to the vital perspectives of people here and now. Uncertainty is not depressing, it is encouraging. Makes you to be more alert. Makes you to bet in some outcomes, fight against the plans of others. Commenting in what you say, Nobody know what will happen. You reach prepature conclussions based on your local environment, The idea that the future is to one wold government exist since Atila or since the first tribeman holded the first stone. But it seems that very powerful people has endorsed it. If I were super-powerful and rich and I were the kind of enlightened idiot with stone-age morality that is very common today, I would consider the planet as a my yard and would work for maintaining this yard for my own family intact for generations, with my family in power: clean, ordered and with as little populace as possible. I also would fight for a world government where... Ahem, I would better take the responsibility of caring for you. 2015-04-24 0:36 GMT+02:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com: On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: The amazing thing is how what would happen in 100 trillion years may preoccupy so seriously to some people that would induce to suicide. Boltzman committed suicide in part because his own theories of termodinamical dead of the universe more or less. Other people are influenced equally hard, but unconsciously by very long term perspectives that are beyond his own timespan. And this tells something very important about the human condition: once day by day survival is solved, people need a meaning. that means that he need to live in a society with a plan and to work for this plan, which is a kind of salvation. I agree with this. The problem is that technological progress invalidates previous social constructs. For example, for a long time the concept of nation-state provided such a society. The concept of nation-state does not seem able to survive modern communication and transportation technologies. Things will only get weirder with VR and so on. What then? This is in the constitution of human beings, induced by evolution if you like, but it is there no doubt. suicide means that the person think unconsciously that it can not contribute. we are very egoistic in the short term, but in the long term we are like ants. this is too fast but I can argue in detail about all of this 2015-04-20 0:04 GMT+02:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com: In my opinion extensive Dysonisation will only occur later in the stelliferous era - in the 100 trillion years when the galaxy (and the few others still visible in the far distance) glow rose-red from having a population exclusively made of stellar remnants and M class dwarfs. At this point some species may have made it through the evolutionary heritage bottleneck (have conquered the desire to consume endlessly and to wipe out rivals, I mean) - plus, it will be a lot more obvious that the universe's resources are running low, and conservation is in order. Riffing... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at
Re: Practicalities of Mind Uploading
On 25 Apr 2015, at 17:58, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: a destructive upload should be possible, and a conservative upload would give you a 50-50 chance of finding yourself uploaded. Would give who a 50-50 chance of being uploaded? If there is something wrong with comp [...] There is plenty wrong with Bruno's comp, You told me that you have never read the paper above step 3. The only error you mentioned would be the FPI, that is step 3. But you never reply when we show you the error you made, and then made again and again, and again. but there is nothing wrong with computationalism. You never replied to the explanation that all known form of computationalism implies comp (the weaker form of it). So, the consequence of comp applies to all of them. Bruno John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: God
On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I don't care I'm not picky it's your choice; you can't provide a definition so just give me a example, any example, of God. Arithmetical truth, Analytical truth, Physical truth, The God of the Jews, The One of Plotinus The Noùs of Plato, The great architect of the Timaeus, The One of Parmenides, Cantor's Great Inkonsistenz (modulo the spelling) Allah, Krishna, I asked for one example and just as I expected you gave me more than one, you gave me 11 and in this case more is not better. Except for truth being involved in 3 of them (and truth seems a better name for things that are than God) I don't see a common theme among the others except that they are mysterious big amorphous colorless blobs of unknown answers to unasked and unaskable questions. So I guess there are 11 Gods not 1 and THE ONE is dead and THE ELEVEN is born there are common pattern in between those notions, Common patterns between arithmetical truth and Allah; common patterns between physical truth and the God of the Jews? I don't think so. Allah's prophet Muhammad didn't even know the multiplication table much less have an insight into arithmetical truth, and any bright 5th grader knows far more physical truth than the God of the Jews. And Cantor's Inkonsistenz says that a statement and its negation can't both be true and can't both be false, and yet you said I do not believe that god is an unintelligent blob, nor do I believe it is not an unintelligent blob Yes. Einstein did not believe in a personal God, I don't either. but he was a believer. I'm a believer too, I believe in all sorts of things, it's just that God isn't one of them. Einstein's intution is correct: it has to do with the things we cannot see, believe, know, observe, and so the science is delicate Delicate indeed! How can you have a science about things you can't observe or know or even believe? Physics most certainly kicks back no doubt about it, I'm less certain about mathematics. Think about Church thesis. It is a thesis at the intersection of math and philosophy, and it kick back terribly as making non computability absolute, and unavoidable. But computation is not an abstract idea it is a concrete physical process, so perhaps mathematics is just a language describing what is physically possible and what is not. Or perhaps not, I don't know. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: God
On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 3:26 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/22/2015 2:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: No, you don't. Reread jason detailed post of last year please. Who elected Jason to speak for most people on the planet? Did he take a survey? I spoke for no one. I only quoted people from that faith or excerpts from their religious scriptures directly. Here is a link to the post for those that are new to the list: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/Ua-eNt_vdBE/PV_pwPhvCxcJ (Note you may need to click Show Trimmed Content) This same conversation seems to recur every 6 - 12 months, and every time Brent and John seem to forget everything that was said from the last time it happened. Maybe this time it will be different. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Where are they?
What happens with the (unconscious) nominalists is that you fight the details while ignoring the categories. I have the least interest in discussing the life of Boltzmann or anyone. What is important for me is to stress that suicide and depression is a form of social apoptosis. 2015-04-26 3:07 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net: On 4/20/2015 3:51 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: * once day by day survival is solved, people need a meaning.* If it works for them why is it your problem? That is why modern people put his life at risk in extreme sports and so on: short term risk evade from existential vacuum. 2015-04-20 12:49 GMT+02:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com: The amazing thing is how what would happen in 100 trillion years may preoccupy so seriously to some people that would induce to suicide. Boltzman committed suicide in part because his own theories of termodinamical dead of the universe more or less. Nonsense. He was in poor health and he had long suffered drastic swings in mood. Today he would be diagnosed as bipolar. He also had reason to be depressed because his ideas were rejected on the Continent. They were considered crazy because it was obviously impossible to derive irreversible processes from reversible physics. Other people are influenced equally hard, but unconsciously by very long term perspectives that are beyond his own timespan. And this tells something very important about the human condition: once day by day survival is solved, people need a meaning. that means that he need to live in a society with a plan and to work for this plan, which is a kind of salvation. This is in the constitution of human beings, induced by evolution if you like, but it is there no doubt. suicide means that the person think unconsciously that it can not contribute. Yes, I think that is more accurate than suicide over thermodynamics. Boltzmann's successor Paul Ehrenfest also committed suicide and also suffered severe depression. Ehrenfest was always very critical of himself. After arranging for the care of his other children, he shot his Down syndrome son and then himself. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Where are they?
On 26 April 2015 at 19:43, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: What happens with the (unconscious) nominalists is that you fight the details while ignoring the categories. I have the least interest in discussing the life of Boltzmann or anyone. What is important for me is to stress that suicide and depression is a form of social apoptosis. I'm not sure I like the implications of that, especially when you're talking about someone like Boltzmann. Do you have a good reason to think that suicide and depression evolved to rid the body of society of faulty cells, rather than just being a spandrel resulting, say, from having a complex nervous system? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Practicalities of Mind Uploading
On 26 April 2015 at 02:19, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: that is guaranteed if you can duplicate - or, apparently, just simulate - the quantum state of your body That would be VAST overkill! The quantum state of your body changes about a hundred thousand million billion trillion times every second of your life, but subjectively it doesn't cause a loss of personal identity, and in a case like this subjectivity is far more important than objectivity. That's right - and you can also undergo far greater changes to your brain than those and still survive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Practicalities of Mind Uploading
On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 12:22:21PM -0500, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:59 PM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: Not sure I follow you here. Arbitrary precision does not mean infinite precision. If I want my calculation to be accurate to 300 digits, then it can be calculated to 300 digits precision within finite time. If I then want it to 600 digits, I can do that also, but very likely it will 10^300 times as long. Doesn't it only double the amount of processing time to go from 300 digit precision numbers to 600 digit precision numbers? Depends on the algorithm. To compute the addition of two numbers, you need only double the time for double precision. Multiplication is quadratic if I remember my primary school arithmetic correctly (don't quote me on this). But computing polynomial approximations to transcendental functions takes way longer, as many more terms are required to achieve the stated precision. -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Where are they?
On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: This makes it even more important that we don’t blow it on our own little world. Or perhaps it is evidence that *we are going to blow it* just like every other species has on every other star that has developed intelligence. Our current race towards global war certainly seems to indicate that the second hypothesis has merit. Maybe, but the peak danger of a global war being so terrible it caused the extinction of the entire human race happened in the 1960s and we survived that, the danger is still not zero but it's a lot less. I hope the explanation for the Fermi Paradox is just that we're the first in the observable universe; after all in a finite universe, and the observable universe is finite, somebody has to be first. But if we're not the first then some calamity must happen to any civilization when it reaches a certain level, but I don't think it's war. I wonder how a intelligent conscious being would react if it had full access to its emotional control panel. Regardless of how well our life is going who among us would for eternity opt out of becoming just a little bit happier if all it took was turning a knob? And after you turn it a little bit and see how much better you feel why not turn it again, perhaps a little more this time. Maybe drug addiction is the first signs of that very dangerous positive feedback loop. During most of human existence this was a non-issue but then about 8000 BC alcoholic beverages were invented, but they were so dilute you'd really have to work at it to get into trouble. Then about 500 years ago distilled alcoholic beverages were invented and it became much easier to become a alcoholic. Today we have many drugs that are far more powerful than alcohol. What happens if this trend continues exponentially? Perhaps at some level of intelligence other things become more important than consuming more and more energy Perhaps a eternal orgasm will become more important than consuming more and more energy, and more important than anything else, and more important than everything else put together. Perhaps the world does't end in a bang or a whimper but a groan of mindless pleasure. Perhaps at some level of intelligence growth in energy consumption no longer appeals. Why assume that a super advanced civilization would go down the route of creating Dyson spheres around every star in its galaxy, which is what the study was surveying for. I don't worry about ET using less energy but I do worry about him not havinf any intellectual curiosity and if ET exists he sure doesn't seem very interested in the universe he lives in. And it's not like it would difficult, ET doesn't even need to travel to the stars, ET just needs to send one Von Neumann probe to one star. Even assuming ET can't send space probes any faster than we can ( a ridiculously conservative assumption) then almost instantly from a cosmic perspective (less than 50 million years) the entire Galaxy would be unrecognizable. It's not as if this would take some huge commitment on the part of ET's civilization, in fact even a individual could easily do it. If Von Neumann probes are possible at all, and I can't think why they wouldn't be, then they're going to be dirt cheap, you buying a bag of peanuts would be a greater drag on your financial resources. Even if many or even most ETs think that sending out a von Neumann probe would be a bad idea there will always be somebody who disagrees. And it only takes one. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: crime and duplication machines
On 4/26/2015 1:50 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: Along another line of thought, the social construct of my identity is deeply dependent on my mind being tied to a body that looks very much like the body it had yesterday. The moment that assumption doesn't hold, punishment breaks down. You can no longer tell who you're dealing with by looking. Obvious solution 1 is to tightly regulate memory transfers. If the government can make them effectively impossible to perform then we can stay in dreamland, retaining the social construct of identity. Ah, so that's why Yaweh, Allah, and those other mesopotamian gods stuck souls in bodies; so they could punish them breaking commandments. :-) Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: crime and duplication machines
On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 01:50:47PM -0700, Dennis Ochei wrote: indeed. The memory criterion reveals itself to be problematic the moment you consider partial transfers. If you transfer all my memories, we've decided, per the criterion, that I would wake up at the destination. But what if you transferred all but one memory? 75%? 50%? Via the sorites paradox, you'd have to conclude that a null transfer still allows you to wake up in the new body. Or you could conclude there is some critical percentage where you go from not arriving to arriving in the new body, which is absurd. Why is this absurd? What if all your memories are interlinked into some sort of network, and if you leave out enough memories, a percolation threshold is crossed, and your identity falls apart? -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Where are they?
On 4/26/2015 4:59 PM, John Clark wrote: I wonder how a intelligent conscious being would react if it had full access to its emotional control panel. Regardless of how well our life is going who among us would for eternity opt out of becoming just a little bit happier if all it took was turning a knob? And after you turn it a little bit and see how much better you feel why not turn it again, perhaps a little more this time. Maybe drug addiction is the first signs of that very dangerous positive feedback loop. During most of human existence this was a non-issue but then about 8000 BC alcoholic beverages were invented, but they were so dilute you'd really have to work at it to get into trouble. Then about 500 years ago distilled alcoholic beverages were invented and it became much easier to become a alcoholic. Today we have many drugs that are far more powerful than alcohol. What happens if this trend continues exponentially? Perhaps at some level of intelligence other things become more important than consuming more and more energy Perhaps a eternal orgasm will become more important than consuming more and more energy, and more important than anything else, and more important than everything else put together. Perhaps the world does't end in a bang or a whimper but a groan of mindless pleasure. That implicitly assumes that pleasure is one-dimensional. One nice thing about orgasms, like most pleasures, is that they are satiating. Having a multi-dimensional pleasure space might almost define intelligence. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: God
On 4/25/2015 11:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: A muslim can agree that Allah verifies the definition above. An atheist can agree that The material reality plays the role of God, That already assumes that there is such a role. It's not in my play. I am not sure I understand. I don't think there's a single cause/source of for all of physical reality, culuture, ethics, art, mathematics, consciousness... There is circumstance and accident at different levels. We agree on that. But what about the initial assumptions? The TOE? Initial assumptions and TOE's are not everything. You yourself often refer to geography as a metaphor for the other accidental stuff; which physicists call symmetry breaking. I know this list is based on the idea that any geography you can't explain can be swept under the rug of everything happens (just not here). But I think that's just another form of giving up or invoking magic, of which you often accuse materialists. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: God
On 4/26/2015 9:36 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 3:26 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/22/2015 2:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: No, you don't. Reread jason detailed post of last year please. Who elected Jason to speak for most people on the planet? Did he take a survey? I spoke for no one. I only quoted people from that faith or excerpts from their religious scriptures directly. Here is a link to the post for those that are new to the list: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/Ua-eNt_vdBE/PV_pwPhvCxcJ (Note you may need to click Show Trimmed Content) This same conversation seems to recur every 6 - 12 months, and every time Brent and John seem to forget everything that was said from the last time it happened. Maybe this time it will be different. Maybe you should remember my rejoinder too. It was not you who claimed to speak for other people, it was Bruno that claimed you did: Bruno:/Jason Resh shows you that my definition of God is the same as the Chinese, Indian, Greeks, / /// ///Brent:/Are you claiming that all Chinese, Indians, and Greeks agree on a canonical definition for God? That would certainly be remarkable (especially as god is an English word)./ John Clark: /I already know what most people on this planet mean by the word God / Bruno: /No, you don't. Reread jason detailed post of last year please. / Brent: /Who elected Jason to speak for most people on the planet? Did he take a survey?/ No he didn't take a survey; he cherry picked from ancient texts and theologians who agreed with him. And Jason didn't even go so far as to say these were majority opinions or common meanings; only that they were other conceptions of God consistent with Bruno's mystic ONE or TRUTH. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: God
On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 3:10 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/25/2015 11:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: A muslim can agree that Allah verifies the definition above. An atheist can agree that The material reality plays the role of God, That already assumes that there is such a role. It's not in my play. I am not sure I understand. I don't think there's a single cause/source of for all of physical reality, culuture, ethics, art, mathematics, consciousness... There is circumstance and accident at different levels. We agree on that. But what about the initial assumptions? The TOE? Initial assumptions and TOE's are not everything. You yourself often refer to geography as a metaphor for the other accidental stuff; which physicists call symmetry breaking. I know this list is based on the idea that any geography you can't explain can be swept under the rug of everything happens (just not here). But I think that's just another form of giving up or invoking magic, of which you often accuse materialists. It's giving up only in the sense of realizing it was always a fruitless task. Imagine if there were a lot of dust in the Oort cloud so we couldn't see anything beyond our solar system. We might wonder, why is the Earth's orbit and the suns size and radiation level just right to last long enough for life to evolve without being so low in luminosity that Earth would be a frozen planet. Entire generations of physicists might search in vain for a theory that explains why the Suns size has to be exactly the size it is observed, and why it can be no other way. This is the mistake I think some physicists make when they think they can mathematically derive (from pure number theory or similar) the constants of physics or the single realized set of string theory equations. Is it giving up to lean towards the theory that there are many suns beyond what can be seen from our position? Sure, it might dissuade one from searching for a mathematical basis for a single set of physics, but Kepler wasted a good portion of his time looking for a geometric explanation for the orbits of the planets. I don't think it should be framed as giving up vs. not giving up, but rather, which questions are the most interesting ones to concentrate our time on. The general trend of evidence has been accumulating to suggest there are multiple universes with different laws, rather than towards there only being one allowed set of laws. There will always be Keplers out there who won't give up, and so there's always room for the possibility of them one day finding something, but personally I'd rather spend my time consider the consequences and implications of the view that there are many universes. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Consciousness creates physics
Evgeniy, I, for one, like your approach on the Hoffmann-Prokosh idea. In my terms (Ccness = REPLY (reflection?) to RELATIONS definitely points to the Berkeley wisdom (to accept as existing one must perceive the item, in concise Latin: *ESSE* (to include into our worldview) *est PERCIPI*. Difference may be in faith-based religion where ACCEPTANCE is also good enough. It may be an extension for the Kantian 'revolution': our entire image of the WORLD (the Everything, Nature, you name it) is the product of our mind. (And please, do not ask what I mean by 'mind'). All our 'knowledge' about the WORLD(?) is the reflection of the human mind on phenomena (items, processes) perceived in adjusted formats available to the mind. No justification and no formatting to any 'reality'. That includes the Hoffmann-Prakash Psychology as well. (I did not read the paper). JM On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote: Dear Brent, I would agree that it is unclear what conscious agents introduced in the paper have to do with human consciousness. For me it was interesting to see that the cognitive science is close to Kantian revolution (space and time are created by the mind) and that Berkeley's to be is to be perceived (esse est percipi) is still actual. The next natural step for the cognitive science would be radical constructivism. Evgenii Am 26.04.2015 um 21:35 schrieb meekerdb: I think the authors are more interested in being provocative than in being clear. For example: /The interface theory entails that these first two steps were mere warm up. The next step in the intellectual history of H. sapiens is a big one. We must recognize that all of our perceptions of space, time and objects no more reflect reality than does our perception of a flat earth. It's not just this or that aspect of our perceptions that must be corrected, it is the entire framework of a space-time containing objects, the fundamental organization of our perceptual systems, that must be recognized as a mere species-specific mode of perception rather than an insight into objective reality./ / //By this time it should be clear that, if the arguments given here are sound, then the current Bayesian models of object perception need more than tinkering around the edges, they need fundamental transformation. And this transformation will necessarily have ramifications for scientific questions well-beyond the confines of computational models of object perception./ There's no justification for the mere. Our perception has gone well beyond what biology provided. Nor is there any reason to suppose that the transformation they propose will be THE OBJECTIVE TRUTH either. / //Similarly, most of my mental processes are not directly conscious to me, but that does not entail that they are unconscious./ This just seems to make of muddle of what is meant by conscious. Anyway, I'll finish reading it. I think an explanation of consciousness based on evolution is one useful approach. Brent On 4/26/2015 1:22 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Enjoy. Evgenii Donald David Hoffman, Chetan Prakash, Objects of consciousness, Frontiers in Psychology, v. 5, N 00577, 2014. http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyg.2014.00577/full “We develop the dynamics of interacting conscious agents, and study how the perception of objects and space-time can emerge from such dynamics. We show that one particular object, the quantum free particle, has a wave function that is identical in form to the harmonic functions that characterize the asymptotic dynamics of conscious agents; particles are vibrations not of strings but of interacting conscious agents. This allows us to reinterpret physical properties such as position, momentum, and energy as properties of interacting conscious agents, rather than as preexisting physical truths.” -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: crime and duplication machines
Whoops, accidentally hit send. As i was saying, at the mind fingerprinting the government has to look for criminal memeplexes and render them inert. For instance let's say a criminal memplex is composed of two major subunits, the desire to commit the crime and the know-how to commit the crime. If the government detects them in the same body then one has to be deleted or modified. Crimes would be attributed to mind-viruses. Now, at first glance directly modifying minds seems very 1984ish. But that's what our criminal justice system is supposed to do *now,* render the desire component of the criminal memeplex inert. This is just a more effective version. Basically we move from a model where we punish people for what the did to to a model where we disassemble memeplexes for what they might cause people to do. This effectively means it will be illegal to have certain ideas in your head. Of course there is no way the American legal system will be able to keep up with this, so it's gonna be a field day if and when memory transfers are possible. On Sunday, April 26, 2015, Dennis Ochei do.infinit...@gmail.com wrote: indeed. The memory criterion reveals itself to be problematic the moment you consider partial transfers. If you transfer all my memories, we've decided, per the criterion, that I would wake up at the destination. But what if you transferred all but one memory? 75%? 50%? Via the sorites paradox, you'd have to conclude that a null transfer still allows you to wake up in the new body. Or you could conclude there is some critical percentage where you go from not arriving to arriving in the new body, which is absurd. Or you conclude only a 100% complete transfer allows you to wake in the new body. But that's even worse, when we don't consider *gaining* memories equally destructive to identity. Imagine we have a mind M at t0 with a certain set of memories. At t1 it gains a new memory. At t2 it losses that memory. It would mean that M0 = M1, M0 = M2 and M1 != M2. Instead we have to consider the subjective *illusion* of identity, independent of the question of actual identity. Then the answer is clear. The more memories I transfer the more the new body will believe it is me, the veracity of that belief being an empty question. in the case of a complete transfer the illusion will be total and complete. A partial transfer will create a weaker illusion. If I transfer just a few memories, it will seem to the destination person that they had a dream where they where me, but Zhaungzi will realize he is not the butterfly. Along another line of thought, the social construct of my identity is deeply dependent on my mind being tied to a body that looks very much like the body it had yesterday. The moment that assumption doesn't hold, punishment breaks down. You can no longer tell who you're dealing with by looking. Obvious solution 1 is to tightly regulate memory transfers. If the government can make them effectively impossible to perform then we can stay in dreamland, retaining the social construct of identity. Barring that, if memory transfers are possible, then there is no way to deter *someone* from using them to escape punishment. This is a tenuous point, but i think it follows from throwing out the fact of identity while retaining the illusion. Call it a conjecture. We'll come back to this. Now suppose the government did regular memory scans to track who's who. Memory finngerprinting. Just overlook how this is the most total breach of privacy possible... They would get some sort of similarity measure and use that to track closest continuer subjective threads. The problem is that it's possible to simply make your subjective thread disappear for some time to reappear later. I will use letters to represent bodies and numbers for minds. The dash indicates their association A - 1 B - 2 C - 3 Then 2 splits into 4 and 5. 4 is added to A, 5 is added to C, 3 overwrites the contents of B. A - 1,4 B - 3' C - 3, 5 The operation can be reversed at a later date reconstiting 2. The point im trying to make is that any person can just cease to exist only to reappear later. This is even simpler if we can just write the memories to a hard drive. Then there is no need to hide parts of 2 in other bodies. The second point is that there is always reasonable doubt that you were in control of your body when you committed a crime. A1 kidnaps B2, stores 2 on a drive. B1' commits a crime (say a kidnapping!) 1 and 1' merge in body A. A1 returns 2 to B. You could say that 2 has no memories of commiting the crime so he'll get off. But if that's all it takes for innocence then a criminal can just erase his memories of committing a crime. I mean we could play with this more but I'd rather get to where I'm going with this. I want to say that punishing *people* for what they did (for deterrence or retributive reasons) is simply intractable in this situation. Instead,
Re: God
On 26 Apr 2015, at 16:47, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I don't care I'm not picky it's your choice; you can't provide a definition so just give me a example, any example, of God. Arithmetical truth, Analytical truth, Physical truth, The God of the Jews, The One of Plotinus The Noùs of Plato, The great architect of the Timaeus, The One of Parmenides, Cantor's Great Inkonsistenz (modulo the spelling) Allah, Krishna, I asked for one example and just as I expected you gave me more than one, you gave me 11 and in this case more is not better. Except for truth being involved in 3 of them (and truth seems a better name for things that are than God) I don't see a common theme among the others except that they are mysterious big amorphous colorless blobs of unknown answers to unasked and unaskable questions. So I guess there are 11 Gods not 1 and THE ONE is dead and THE ELEVEN is born I gave you the definition. Then I gave example, not of God which I would assume, but that some people assumed. The definition I gave was the reason of things. let me try another one: it is what you still believe in when you lost faith in the God you were used too. I told you, like number designates 0 and 1, I use a definition of God which makes physicalism (not physics) into a theology: the one which assumes that matter is at the origin of your consciousness here and now, or that matter is the reason of things. Then the point is that this leads to epistemological contradictions and difficulties once we assume mechanism. I put the cart on the table, but you do not. You say you are open that mathematics is more fundamental than physics, but you still come up with the brain-mind identity thesis, at least when you are in good period, as those days, you make only rhetorical dismiss showing your lack of interest, if not prejudice. What you said about Proclus and Plotinus is just childish. It is clear you have not read them, and have no idea of what they are talking about, no idea how serious they are, and no idea of their influence on the institutionalized religion including their dissidents. there are common pattern in between those notions, Common patterns between arithmetical truth and Allah; Of course there are. common patterns between physical truth and the God of the Jews? I simplify: the jews were neoplatonist until Maimonides. I made a conference explaining machine's theology (G and G* and the intensional variants). Someone told me that this was the theology of the jews. I answered that I was not sure about that because if we read Maimonides, it seems encouraging more the Aristotle view than the Plato one. He answered me something like Oh! Yes, if you listen to Maimonides Even among Muslims, the (rarer and rarte, alas) scholars who works on the subject are aware that the question universe of not universe is not solved. I know that some religious scholar does not like this, but I take monotheism as a popularisation (and abuse) of the idea of monism. It gives a sense to the idea of fundamental science. Now, Aristotle, monism has tend to materialism, which, for a computationalist, is like believing in a special universal number program (of the type F=MA, or HPsi = Epsi, or H=0) and assuming some reality/god instantiating one solution of the equation above (usually computable), itself described in, and using, some universal number or program, like assuming real trigonometrical polynomials, of assument just Robinson Arithmetic (which is assumed by all scientists, even the ultrafinitists, as Brent made me realize some weeks ago. I don't think so. Allah's prophet Muhammad didn't even know the multiplication table much less have an insight into arithmetical truth, and any bright 5th grader knows far more physical truth than the God of the Jews. You show up too much misunderstanding. I talk about the abstract, perhaps correct or not, theory of everything. Yes, some Neoplatonist Muslims of the eleventh century might be less wrong than some Nobel prize in Physics today, and not about physics (that would be doubtfull, but about metaphysics or theology, let us the say just the fundamental science (in the sense of those who are no more sure that matter is the primitive reality). And Cantor's Inkonsistenz says that a statement and its negation can't both be true and can't both be false, ? Where? and yet you said I do not believe that god is an unintelligent blob, nor do I believe it is not an unintelligent blob ? It just means that I am agnostic. You seem to confuse ~[]p ~[]~p with []p []~p Yes. Einstein did not believe in a personal God, I don't either. I am agnostic about this too, but God can be used as a Nickname for any entity knowing all arithmetical truth. Its arithmetical (but not expressible in
Re: crime and duplication machines
indeed. The memory criterion reveals itself to be problematic the moment you consider partial transfers. If you transfer all my memories, we've decided, per the criterion, that I would wake up at the destination. But what if you transferred all but one memory? 75%? 50%? Via the sorites paradox, you'd have to conclude that a null transfer still allows you to wake up in the new body. Or you could conclude there is some critical percentage where you go from not arriving to arriving in the new body, which is absurd. Or you conclude only a 100% complete transfer allows you to wake in the new body. But that's even worse, when we don't consider *gaining* memories equally destructive to identity. Imagine we have a mind M at t0 with a certain set of memories. At t1 it gains a new memory. At t2 it losses that memory. It would mean that M0 = M1, M0 = M2 and M1 != M2. Instead we have to consider the subjective *illusion* of identity, independent of the question of actual identity. Then the answer is clear. The more memories I transfer the more the new body will believe it is me, the veracity of that belief being an empty question. in the case of a complete transfer the illusion will be total and complete. A partial transfer will create a weaker illusion. If I transfer just a few memories, it will seem to the destination person that they had a dream where they where me, but Zhaungzi will realize he is not the butterfly. Along another line of thought, the social construct of my identity is deeply dependent on my mind being tied to a body that looks very much like the body it had yesterday. The moment that assumption doesn't hold, punishment breaks down. You can no longer tell who you're dealing with by looking. Obvious solution 1 is to tightly regulate memory transfers. If the government can make them effectively impossible to perform then we can stay in dreamland, retaining the social construct of identity. Barring that, if memory transfers are possible, then there is no way to deter *someone* from using them to escape punishment. This is a tenuous point, but i think it follows from throwing out the fact of identity while retaining the illusion. Call it a conjecture. We'll come back to this. Now suppose the government did regular memory scans to track who's who. Memory finngerprinting. Just overlook how this is the most total breach of privacy possible... They would get some sort of similarity measure and use that to track closest continuer subjective threads. The problem is that it's possible to simply make your subjective thread disappear for some time to reappear later. I will use letters to represent bodies and numbers for minds. The dash indicates their association A - 1 B - 2 C - 3 Then 2 splits into 4 and 5. 4 is added to A, 5 is added to C, 3 overwrites the contents of B. A - 1,4 B - 3' C - 3, 5 The operation can be reversed at a later date reconstiting 2. The point im trying to make is that any person can just cease to exist only to reappear later. This is even simpler if we can just write the memories to a hard drive. Then there is no need to hide parts of 2 in other bodies. The second point is that there is always reasonable doubt that you were in control of your body when you committed a crime. A1 kidnaps B2, stores 2 on a drive. B1' commits a crime (say a kidnapping!) 1 and 1' merge in body A. A1 returns 2 to B. You could say that 2 has no memories of commiting the crime so he'll get off. But if that's all it takes for innocence then a criminal can just erase his memories of committing a crime. I mean we could play with this more but I'd rather get to where I'm going with this. I want to say that punishing *people* for what they did (for deterrence or retributive reasons) is simply intractable in this situation. Instead, one has to lower their level of abstraction to memes. A memeplex caused a body to act in a certain way. At the mind On Friday, April 24, 2015, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','stath...@gmail.com'); wrote: On Saturday, April 25, 2015, Dennis Ochei do.infinit...@gmail.com wrote: Here's the clincher. 1. Suppose I erase my body's memories after. Do I go to jail? 2. Suppose I erase the memories of this body. I find another body (say a laboratory synthesized one with no memories) and download my memories onto it. Does the new body go to jail? 3. I commit a crime and then a buddy of mine, who had no knowledge of the crime decides he wants to experience my memories. He downloads the entirety of my memories while retaining his own. Does he go to jail? 4. I commit a crime, then I kidnap someone and forcibly download their memories onto my brain, retaining my own. I then delete their memories. Memory transfer technology is at such a stage that it is not possible to transfer or delete selected memories. So it is impossible to remove my memories without removing my victim's. Do I go to jail? 5. I commit a crime, then I kidnap
Re: Practicalities of Mind Uploading
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 4:52 AM, Dennis Ochei do.infinit...@gmail.com wrote: In the thread discussing comp the topic of whether uploading is possible came up. While tangentially related to comp, objections on the grounds of practical impossibility miss the point. But! The topic is still very interesting. Is uploading possible? Yes according to computationalism, the currently-dominant theory of mind. If so, when will we have it? I estimate by 2045. It is ultimately a matter of computational power and storage capacity. Imagine several high resolution microscopes/video cameras taking high resolution images as a frozen/plastinated brain is ablated (by laser, thin slicing, etc.) layer by layer. If the video resolution is great enough then the video recordings of watching the entire brain be destroyed in this way would provide sufficient information to reconstruct every neuronal connection. Harvard has a project ATLUM which automates this kind of brain scanning. As a process subject to information processing, it will follow the same trajectory of our increasing computing power. We currently have uploaded worms (nematodes) with 302 neurons: openwork.org Fruit flies have about 100x as many neurons (around 100,000), we need roughly 7 more doublings in computing power until we have openfruitfly.org Mice have 100 times as many neurons as fruit flies, 10,000,000, we need 7 more doublings in computing power to get to openmouse.org Cats have 100 times as many neurons as mice, 1 billion, we need 7 more doublings in computing power to get to opencat.org Humans have 100 times as many neurons as cats 100 billion, we need 7 more doublings in computing power to get to openhuman.org So this is a total of 28 doublings away. If computers double in power every year, we'll have openhuman.org by 2043. What fidelity is necessary? That's a good question. I would hope knowing every type of neuron and all the connections between them would be sufficient. If 100 bytes is sufficient to describe every neuronal connection in enough detail, then it would take 77 PB to store the roughly 770 trillion connections. Will the upload still be you? As much as the man who wakes up in your bed next morning is you (assuming computationalism) Would you sign up for a destructive upload? Conservative? Yes, if others had gone before me and demonstrated satisfaction with the results. Feel free to toss any other questions into the mix. For the record, I think uploading is possible, that destructive uploading will come way sooner, Way sooner is relative, when technological growth accelerates exponentially. If we're talking about post-singularity technological progress, it might come only a few minutes later. I'm uncertain about fidelity, but I do think there could be a functional isomorphism that doesn't depend on on a structural one, i.e. 100 simplified neurons might be required to capture the behavior of one physical one. The substitution level i think is subcellular. I think uploading perserves identity and I might actually prefer a destructive upload, when I consider the disappointment of the me that wakes up still flesh and bone after a conservative upload. Nice. See you on the other side. (hopefully). Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Practicalities of Mind Uploading
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:59 PM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 11:27:26AM +1000, Bruce Kellett wrote: LizR wrote: But there's no-cloning to consider - plus whether a simulated quantum state is the same as a real one... No-cloning of an unknown quantum state is simply the statement that there is no unitary operator that will enable you to transfer the properties of one unknown quantum state to another. Simulating a quantum state might be another matter. Quantum states are generally described in terms of some basis in Hilbert space. The coefficients of the expansion in that basis are arbitrary complex numbers, subject to the usual normalization conventions for the state. If you want to simulate this state, you have to simulate these coefficients to arbitrary precision. This is not possible in finite time with a digital computer. Not sure I follow you here. Arbitrary precision does not mean infinite precision. If I want my calculation to be accurate to 300 digits, then it can be calculated to 300 digits precision within finite time. If I then want it to 600 digits, I can do that also, but very likely it will 10^300 times as long. Doesn't it only double the amount of processing time to go from 300 digit precision numbers to 600 digit precision numbers? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Practicalities of Mind Uploading
WMAP was flawed according to the latest sky survey announced recently. The big acceleration has long ago reversed and heat death here we come. Tipler's new claims are wrapped in his theology, yet can be instructional none the less, unless you feel that uploading and antimatter weapons are logically impossible forever? Yes, his omega point is over kill, but this was for lots of other mindful things aside from resurrection, which is the greater importance to humans. There seem to be better ways then the long wait offered by Tipler. One way, is to comprehend that at basis, the universe and the info it contains is available and transportable, and has evolved this way for a very long time. -Original Message- From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Apr 25, 2015 12:19 pm Subject: Re: Practicalities of Mind Uploading On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: The question is whether the you who was a biological entity experiences waking up as the uploaded version. If the you who woke up this morning is the same you that went to sleep last night then the answer to the above question is obvious. If the you who woke up this morning is NOT the same you that went to sleep last night then the answer to the above question is unimportant. Tipler claims Tipler's old claims were interesting but later proven to be wrong, Tipler's new claims are insane. that is guaranteed if you can duplicate - or, apparently, just simulate - the quantum state of your body That would be VAST overkill! The quantum state of your body changes about a hundred thousand million billion trillion times every second of your life, but subjectively it doesn't cause a loss of personal identity, and in a case like this subjectivity is far more important than objectivity. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: God
On 26 Apr 2015, at 18:36, Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 3:26 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/22/2015 2:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: No, you don't. Reread jason detailed post of last year please. Who elected Jason to speak for most people on the planet? Did he take a survey? I spoke for no one. I only quoted people from that faith or excerpts from their religious scriptures directly. Here is a link to the post for those that are new to the list: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/Ua-eNt_vdBE/PV_pwPhvCxcJ (Note you may need to click Show Trimmed Content) This same conversation seems to recur every 6 - 12 months, and every time Brent and John seem to forget everything that was said from the last time it happened. Maybe this time it will be different. That is what I call faith :) Thanks for the link. Still not so obvious to navigate there. I still miss Escribe.com where one post = one page Why such system disappeared? Bruno Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Consciousness creates physics
Dear Brent, I would agree that it is unclear what conscious agents introduced in the paper have to do with human consciousness. For me it was interesting to see that the cognitive science is close to Kantian revolution (space and time are created by the mind) and that Berkeley's to be is to be perceived (esse est percipi) is still actual. The next natural step for the cognitive science would be radical constructivism. Evgenii Am 26.04.2015 um 21:35 schrieb meekerdb: I think the authors are more interested in being provocative than in being clear. For example: /The interface theory entails that these first two steps were mere warm up. The next step in the intellectual history of H. sapiens is a big one. We must recognize that all of our perceptions of space, time and objects no more reflect reality than does our perception of a flat earth. It's not just this or that aspect of our perceptions that must be corrected, it is the entire framework of a space-time containing objects, the fundamental organization of our perceptual systems, that must be recognized as a mere species-specific mode of perception rather than an insight into objective reality./ / //By this time it should be clear that, if the arguments given here are sound, then the current Bayesian models of object perception need more than tinkering around the edges, they need fundamental transformation. And this transformation will necessarily have ramifications for scientific questions well-beyond the confines of computational models of object perception./ There's no justification for the mere. Our perception has gone well beyond what biology provided. Nor is there any reason to suppose that the transformation they propose will be THE OBJECTIVE TRUTH either. / //Similarly, most of my mental processes are not directly conscious to me, but that does not entail that they are unconscious./ This just seems to make of muddle of what is meant by conscious. Anyway, I'll finish reading it. I think an explanation of consciousness based on evolution is one useful approach. Brent On 4/26/2015 1:22 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Enjoy. Evgenii Donald David Hoffman, Chetan Prakash, Objects of consciousness, Frontiers in Psychology, v. 5, N 00577, 2014. http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyg.2014.00577/full “We develop the dynamics of interacting conscious agents, and study how the perception of objects and space-time can emerge from such dynamics. We show that one particular object, the quantum free particle, has a wave function that is identical in form to the harmonic functions that characterize the asymptotic dynamics of conscious agents; particles are vibrations not of strings but of interacting conscious agents. This allows us to reinterpret physical properties such as position, momentum, and energy as properties of interacting conscious agents, rather than as preexisting physical truths.” -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Where are they?
The reasons are wherever. Just hear depressed people or last writings of suicide people. There are many other social adaptations like this. for example the wite of the eyes. b But at the level of depression or suicide, moral feelings like for example the self remorse when we do something bad to others and move us to beg pardon . Or the weight that we carry when do wrong things in general. Only psychopaths are free from that. That these are adaptations is self evident. Because the wise people have know that since the beginning of the time: A society can not work not nor ever will work without these moral aspects of human nature and these impulses are universal for all peoples all times. That the science has'nt studied that in detail tell a lot about how deeply flawed and biased the modern science is. 2015-04-26 10:20 GMT+02:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com: On 26 April 2015 at 19:43, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: What happens with the (unconscious) nominalists is that you fight the details while ignoring the categories. I have the least interest in discussing the life of Boltzmann or anyone. What is important for me is to stress that suicide and depression is a form of social apoptosis. I'm not sure I like the implications of that, especially when you're talking about someone like Boltzmann. Do you have a good reason to think that suicide and depression evolved to rid the body of society of faulty cells, rather than just being a spandrel resulting, say, from having a complex nervous system? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Consciousness creates physics
I think the authors are more interested in being provocative than in being clear. For example: /The interface theory entails that these first two steps were mere warm up. The next step in the intellectual history of H. sapiens is a big one. We must recognize that all of our perceptions of space, time and objects no more reflect reality than does our perception of a flat earth. It's not just this or that aspect of our perceptions that must be corrected, it is the entire framework of a space-time containing objects, the fundamental organization of our perceptual systems, that must be recognized as a mere species-specific mode of perception rather than an insight into objective reality./ / //By this time it should be clear that, if the arguments given here are sound, then the current Bayesian models of object perception need more than tinkering around the edges, they need fundamental transformation. And this transformation will necessarily have ramifications for scientific questions well-beyond the confines of computational models of object perception./ There's no justification for the mere. Our perception has gone well beyond what biology provided. Nor is there any reason to suppose that the transformation they propose will be THE OBJECTIVE TRUTH either. / //Similarly, most of my mental processes are not directly conscious to me, but that does not entail that they are unconscious./ This just seems to make of muddle of what is meant by conscious. Anyway, I'll finish reading it. I think an explanation of consciousness based on evolution is one useful approach. Brent On 4/26/2015 1:22 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Enjoy. Evgenii Donald David Hoffman, Chetan Prakash, Objects of consciousness, Frontiers in Psychology, v. 5, N 00577, 2014. http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyg.2014.00577/full “We develop the dynamics of interacting conscious agents, and study how the perception of objects and space-time can emerge from such dynamics. We show that one particular object, the quantum free particle, has a wave function that is identical in form to the harmonic functions that characterize the asymptotic dynamics of conscious agents; particles are vibrations not of strings but of interacting conscious agents. This allows us to reinterpret physical properties such as position, momentum, and energy as properties of interacting conscious agents, rather than as preexisting physical truths.” -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Practicalities of Mind Uploading
For whatever its worth. David Deustch's solution to grandfather paradox eclipses this objection. Time travelers go back to a duplicate universe and kill grand dad, or Jack the Ripper, before he can do harm to the people in his lifespan. The travelers return to an unchanged world, but they did change reality in the universe next door. There's no reason why states cannot be duplicated as long as they don't violate Heisenberg's uncertainty rule. If we go back to Einstein's GR block universe/frame, you can copy anything in the past (light cone?) and duplicate it somewhere else. As long as you can glom past info, you can dupe it. Nothing with Einstein's GR, Heisenberg's Uncertainty, or Deutsches' Grand dad shot in another universe, prevents duping. In Everett's MWI the mulitple worlds are just projections of the one state-of-the-multivers onto different (approximately) orthogonal subspaces. There's no duplicating of states. And in any case the no-cloning theorem doesn't prohibit there being multiple copies of a state, it just prevents you from measuring an unknown state completely so that you know you have duplicated it. You can make copies of a state you know (i.e. prepare). And you could coincidentally make a copy of an unknown state - you just wouldn't be able to know it was a copy. Brent -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Apr 25, 2015 2:52 am Subject: Re: Practicalities of Mind Uploading On 4/24/2015 4:24 AM, LizR wrote: On 24 April 2015 at 23:03, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: How about this? MWI, if true, refutes the no-clonning conundrum. Yes, that's my opinion too - but it doesn't allow US to do it. The MWI is constantly duplicating quantum states, indeed there are infinite numbers of copies of the entire universe's quantum state waiting to differentiate. In Everett's MWI the mulitple worlds are just projections of the one state-of-the-multivers onto different (approximately) orthogonal subspaces. There's no duplicating of states. And in any case the no-cloning theorem doesn't prohibit there being multiple copies of a state, it just prevents you from measuring an unknown state completely so that you know you have duplicated it. You can make copies of a state you know (i.e. prepare). And you could coincidentally make a copy of an unknown state - you just wouldn't be able to know it was a copy. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Where are they?
On 4/26/2015 1:18 AM, LizR wrote: On 26 April 2015 at 13:07, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Nonsense. He was in poor health and he had long suffered drastic swings in mood. Today he would be diagnosed as bipolar. He also had reason to be depressed because his ideas were rejected on the Continent. They were considered crazy because it was obviously impossible to derive irreversible processes from reversible physics. This was correct. Boltzmann smuggled the arrow of time into his calculations via an assumption concerning whether their velocities were correlated or independent (I forget the details, but Huw Price explained it very neatly so even I got it, at least at the time). However, that wasn't a reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater - thermodynamics still works, of course, if you can get a system into a low entropy state to start with. Boltzmann's assumption of uncorreleated velocities worked and he got the thermodynamics of an ideal gas from stat mech precisely because thermodynamics described gases in terms of pressure and temperature, a description which ignored those correlations. His great contribution was to see that entropy was the measure of microscopic degrees of freedom relative to which macroscopic constraints were assumed. If he'd only lived a few more years he would have seen his ideas vindicated by Planck's application to black body radiation. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Practicalities of Mind Uploading
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 01:48:40PM +1200, LizR wrote: According to the latest Scientific American, Moore's Law stopped working about 10 years ago. I'm not sure if or how this affects the prognostications for AIs, mind simulation etc, though. The only thing that stopped 10 years ago was the increase in CPU clock speed. That was never Moore's law, though, which refers to density of transistors for a given price point. That has very much continued to increase. I can now buy CPUs with 50 cores for the price of a dual core system 10 years ago. And each core has almost an order of magnitude performance improvement due to architectural improvements (eg more cache, hyperthreading, SIMD/vector instructions etc). That's about 200 x performance improvement over a decade, about double what Moore's would predict. But its all parallel computing - its not going the make Microsoft Word any less of a dog. Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: God
On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I gave you the definition. You said there was no definition for God. Then I gave example, not of God which I would assume, but that some people assumed. And now you say the examples of God that you gave are no good. So God like free will is just a noise. Common patterns between arithmetical truth and Allah? Of course there are. Maybe you're right. Timmy and Bobby are suicide bombers, Allah gives suicide bombers 72 virgins in the afterlife, so when Timmy and Bobby blow themselves up they get 144 virgins. You seem to confuse ~[]p ~[]~p with []p []~p Now how could anybody possibly confuse ~[]p ~[]~p with []p []~p ? But computation is not an abstract idea it is a concrete physical process, Wrong. Computation can be concretized in any universal number, in arithmetic. Yes computation can be made real, but not without using energy and increasing entropy, in other words not without turning to a PHYSICAL process. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Practicalities of Mind Uploading
According to the latest Scientific American, Moore's Law stopped working about 10 years ago. I'm not sure if or how this affects the prognostications for AIs, mind simulation etc, though. On 27 April 2015 at 11:59, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 12:22:21PM -0500, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:59 PM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: Not sure I follow you here. Arbitrary precision does not mean infinite precision. If I want my calculation to be accurate to 300 digits, then it can be calculated to 300 digits precision within finite time. If I then want it to 600 digits, I can do that also, but very likely it will 10^300 times as long. Doesn't it only double the amount of processing time to go from 300 digit precision numbers to 600 digit precision numbers? Depends on the algorithm. To compute the addition of two numbers, you need only double the time for double precision. Multiplication is quadratic if I remember my primary school arithmetic correctly (don't quote me on this). But computing polynomial approximations to transcendental functions takes way longer, as many more terms are required to achieve the stated precision. -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: God
On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 10:55 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/26/2015 8:42 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Why not move past the denial that some very particular and very specific notion of God exists, and test other conceptions to see which one's work and to what extent they serve as efficacious theories? Because (a) I'm not denying a very particular and very specific notion of God. I'm denying the general notion of a God that is a person who creates or influences the world and is morally good. And (b) I don't move past this because this is the conception of God that wields political power in the world which I find pernicious. And (c) why would I look for effacious theories in the writings of ignorant people who thought the Earth was flat and women had a different number of teeth than men. I'm glad to look for theories for how the world is and how it came to be that way and how to predict its evolution. But I see no reason to use the word god for such theories, since that would just cause confusion with the concepts (a) and (b) above which is what is meant in common discourse. Your answer is to abandon a field because some in that field hold incorrect ideas, which is fine as a personal choice but that won't fix anything and won't advance the field. You need not find efficacious theories in existing texts, but if you find efficacious theories that bear a resemblance to preexisting ideas in existing religions, then all the better if your aim is to move more people towards a more correct theology. No new religion has ever succeeded in getting people to deny god, they've only succeeded in changing the idea of what god is (even Atheism has only succeeded in changing god to be the material universe). Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: God
On 4/26/2015 9:33 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 10:55 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/26/2015 8:42 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Why not move past the denial that some very particular and very specific notion of God exists, and test other conceptions to see which one's work and to what extent they serve as efficacious theories? Because (a) I'm not denying a very particular and very specific notion of God. I'm denying the general notion of a God that is a person who creates or influences the world and is morally good. And (b) I don't move past this because this is the conception of God that wields political power in the world which I find pernicious. And (c) why would I look for effacious theories in the writings of ignorant people who thought the Earth was flat and women had a different number of teeth than men. I'm glad to look for theories for how the world is and how it came to be that way and how to predict its evolution. But I see no reason to use the word god for such theories, since that would just cause confusion with the concepts (a) and (b) above which is what is meant in common discourse. Your answer is to abandon a field because some in that field hold incorrect ideas, I said, I'm glad to look for theories for how the world is and how it came to be that way and how to predict its evolution. Maybe you think the field is fighting over whether to call this god or science, but I don't. which is fine as a personal choice but that won't fix anything and won't advance the field. You need not find efficacious theories in existing texts, but if you find efficacious theories that bear a resemblance to preexisting ideas in existing religions, then all the better if your aim is to move more people towards a more correct theology. No new religion has ever succeeded in getting people to deny god, they've only succeeded in changing the idea of what god is (even Atheism has only succeeded in changing god to be the material universe). That's because you, like Tillich and other theologians, just keep redefining god. But I notice that when I expressed doubt that there was any ONE, any single explanation for the world, Bruno was shocked at such heresy and insisted I must not understand what explanation means. So even some theologians are not flexible enough to consider multiple gods. To bad, they'd better be careful. If they start to have definite concepts they may find they're wrong. Brent Theology is never having to say, That's not God. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: God
On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 3:32 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/26/2015 9:36 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 3:26 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/22/2015 2:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: No, you don't. Reread jason detailed post of last year please. Who elected Jason to speak for most people on the planet? Did he take a survey? I spoke for no one. I only quoted people from that faith or excerpts from their religious scriptures directly. Here is a link to the post for those that are new to the list: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/Ua-eNt_vdBE/PV_pwPhvCxcJ (Note you may need to click Show Trimmed Content) This same conversation seems to recur every 6 - 12 months, and every time Brent and John seem to forget everything that was said from the last time it happened. Maybe this time it will be different. Maybe you should remember my rejoinder too. It was not you who claimed to speak for other people, it was Bruno that claimed you did: Bruno:* Jason Resh shows you that my definition of God is the same as the Chinese, Indian, Greeks, * Brent:* Are you claiming that all Chinese, Indians, and Greeks agree on a canonical definition for God? That would certainly be remarkable (especially as god is an English word).* John Clark: *I already know what most people on this planet mean by the word God * Bruno: *No, you don't. Reread jason detailed post of last year please. * Brent: *Who elected Jason to speak for most people on the planet? Did he take a survey?* No he didn't take a survey; he cherry picked from ancient texts and theologians who agreed with him. And Jason didn't even go so far as to say these were majority opinions or common meanings; only that they were other conceptions of God consistent with Bruno's mystic ONE or TRUTH. Regardless of whether the ideas I quoted represent majority opinions or not, you can't deny: 1. There are numerous conceptions of God even within the same religions and same sects of religions 2. Some of these conceptions are not unlike what computationalism might imply, and thus are plausibly correct (if computationalism is correct) 3. There exust significant similarities between many of these conceptions despite arising in different cultures and times Why not move past the denial that some very particular and very specific notion of God exists, and test other conceptions to see which one's work and to what extent they serve as efficacious theories? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: God
On 4/26/2015 8:42 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Why not move past the denial that some very particular and very specific notion of God exists, and test other conceptions to see which one's work and to what extent they serve as efficacious theories? Because (a) I'm not denying a very particular and very specific notion of God. I'm denying the general notion of a God that is a person who creates or influences the world and is morally good. And (b) I don't move past this because this is the conception of God that wields political power in the world which I find pernicious. And (c) why would I look for effacious theories in the writings of ignorant people who thought the Earth was flat and women had a different number of teeth than men. I'm glad to look for theories for how the world is and how it came to be that way and how to predict its evolution. But I see no reason to use the word god for such theories, since that would just cause confusion with the concepts (a) and (b) above which is what is meant in common discourse. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Origin of mathematics
On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 23 April 2015 at 13:24, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net So is chess real? No, chess is an agreed-upon set of conventions invented by the human mind. It didn't exist before people, and it has rules which can be changed without it kicking back (Castling, the pawn's two-square starting move - and hence en passant - were introduced to speed up the game). So how do you respond to this paragraph from Pigliucci: The obvious example that is most close to mathematics (and logic?) itself is provided by board games: “When a game like chess is invented a whole bundle of facts become demonstrable, some of which indeed are theorems that become provable through straightforward mathematical reasoning. As we do not believe in timeless Platonic realities, we do not want to say that chess always existed — in our view of the world, chess came into existence at the moment the rules were codified. This means we have to say that all the facts about it became not only demonstrable, but true, at that moment as well … Once evoked, the facts about chess are objective, in that if any one person can demonstrate one, anyone can. And they are independent of time or particular context: they will be the same facts no matter who considers them or when they are considered” (p. 423). And how does chess, once defined, differ from mathematics? How do other universes we can't see differ from mathematics, or objects in mathematics? In both cases, between them: size is incomparable, time is incomparable, distance is incomparable, communication is impossible, change is impossible and yet we can prove things about them, simulate them, discover things about them, think about them, etc. To any self-aware-substructure (SAS) in that alternate universe we discover and think about/simulate, our universe would seem just as abstract. In fact, we might simulate a that SAS living in his world in his universe, and find him to be simulating you on our planet in our universe. Would that SAS be correct in concluding our universe is only abstract? We could analyze what his brain does and know his thoughts, he might even do the same to you and your brain, and find that you've wrongly concluded that the SAS's universe is only abstract and not real. How rude you are! Perhaps he changes his mind and credits you with some degree of concreteness. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.