date:20150711

Re: A riddle for John Clark

2015-07-11 Thread Bruno Marchal

On 10 Jul 2015, at 20:21, John Clark wrote:

On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal   
wrote:

>> He, he and he! The use of ambiguous personal pronouns  
comes so easily that Bruno doesn't even seem to realize that Bruno  
is using them; it's like breathing, thought is required for  
neither activity.

> The "he" is explained in the [...]. This proves that you work  
only by disingenuous rethorical tricks or that you don't read the  
post(s).

 The complete quote is:

 That is indeed exactly why that guy in Helsinki was able to  
predict that wherever he will survive he will feel  unique, in a  
unique specific city, and a city that he could not have predicted in  
advance. With "he" denoting the guys remembering having been the  
Helsinki guy. Both of them congratulate themselves for having  
written in the diary, when in Helsinki: P(coffee) = 1, P(unique- 
city) = 1, P(W v M) = 1, and P(W & M) = 0, as the diary contains the  
personal, particular, experience, which mention only *one* city, in  
both diaries, either M, or W.

 Do you understand now why both "he" congratulate  
themselves when in Helsinki the guy predicted P(one city) = 1, P(W v  
M) = 1?

No I do NOT understand and neither do you. If you did understand  
you'd have shown I was wrong long ago by simply stop using "he" in  
your thought experiment;

I did, but it changes nothing, as there is no problem with the  
pronouns when you understand and apply the 1p and 3p distinction.

but that is impossible because "he"  is of vital importance, "he" is  
needed to cover up the logical blunders in the "proof".

All right, which one. You mention it often but never show it.

You've made use of the fact that in everyday life most don't give  
much thought to personal pronouns, they don't need to because the  
referent is obvious,

And reman obvious all along the duplication, if you take into account  
the distinction made.

but people duplicating machines have not been invented yet

Of course they have been invented, and with computationalisme we have  
everything we need to make the prediction asked.

and that is not in everyday life, and so bad habits need to be  
broken and attention must be payed.

> Do you agree that P(experiencing-coffee) = 1?  (you said ago  
"yes, I guess")

As I said , if everything in the universe gets coffee then  
"he" will get coffee too regardless of what that personal pronoun  
means.

And why if everything is in front of one city, in one experience,  
would that not apply?

And I said "I guess" because it's hard to get excited over such a  
vapid thought experiment  

Nice, so you do agree.

> Do you agree that P(experiencing-coffee) = 1 implies  
P(experiencing-a-unique-city) = 1?

I don't know if I agree or not because this time everything in the  
universe will NOT be experiencing-a-unique-city.

Who will *experience* two-cities?

The prediction is supposed to be about what "he" will see but this  
time it does matter what "he" means. Before I can give a answer  
I need to understand the question.

If "he" means The Helsinki Man then the probability "he" will   
experience one and only one city is zero, the probability "he" will  
experience  both cities is 1.

Nobody will ever experience both cities. Nobody. You ill be in both  
city, for an outsider point of view (the 3-1 view), and you will se  
only one city (the 1-view).

And the "h" as defined completely in the quote, and we have agreed on  
its meaning, so I supect ypur remain stuck in your habit of rhetorical  
thinking.

If "he" means The Moscow Man then the probability "he" will   
experience one and only one city is 1, the probability "he" will  
experience  both cities is zero.

He means the guy who has been in Helsinki and has the corresponding  
memory, so the M man, and the W man are both the Helsinki man, but of  
course they are now different person and both the W and the M man see  
only once city.

If "he" means Bruno Marchal then the probability "he" will   
experience one and only one city is zero, the probability "he" will  
experience  both cities is 1.

If "he" means The Washington Man then the probability "he" will   
experience one and only one city is 1, the probability "he" will  
experience  both cities is zero.

See above.

So tell me what "he" means and I'll give you a prediction. Not that  
predictions, good bad or mediocre, have anything to do with  
consciousness or the feeling of unique personal identity.

Read the quote, or any post I send lately, or the sane04 paper, or the  
two more recent papers, or the thesis.

Sorry, but I have still not an atom of clue of what you don't  
understand. You ask question in post where the question have been  
answered and on what we have already agreed.

Bruno

  John K Clark

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Re: A riddle for John Clark

2015-07-11 Thread Bruno Marchal



On 10 Jul 2015, at 23:12, Terren Suydam wrote:




On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 4:41 PM, John Clark   
wrote:


On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 4:11 PM, Terren Suydam > wrote:


> Let's call them Helsinki Man, Helsinki-To-Moscow Man, and  
Helsinki-To-Washington Man.


That's quite a mouthful but OK. So the answer to the question  
"what city will the Helsinki Man With No Hyphen see?" is " The  
Helsinki Man With No Hyphen will see no city at all, oblivion  
awaits". And that's odd because I thought we agreed that The  
Helsinki Man survives.  


This is map/territory confusion. Whatever you call them has no  
bearing on Helsinki Man's consciousness as it survives the  
duplication and diverges, just as in the Schrodinger's Cat  
experiment. It's about continuity of consciousness above all else,  
and the labels change nothing about that. There's a perfectly clear  
way to analyze this, but you insist on muddying the waters.


It is the least we can say.

Bruno




Terren

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?

2015-07-11 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List

Icke is an interesting, but paranoid character. If ISIS, or any element from 
the Islamic World causes a 4th world war (The Cold War was actually WW3), then 
it is not any member of the Uma's fault, but instead the weakness, the 
cowardice, the irresolution, of 'so called' Western leaders. Perfection with 
one's fellows humans is fraught with disappointment, because people will always 
disappoint. But, the leadership of the so-called West, is so bad that it 
invites attack from ISIS or anyone else.As Bin Laden said, "People like the 
stronger horse." Leaders here are so weak, that if ISIS attacked, they might 
win. Who now knows? 
 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Sat, Jul 11, 2015 1:36 am
Subject: Fwd: ISIS The Start of World War III?


 
Begin forwarded message:  
 
  


ISIS The Start of World War III?

 David Icke interview

 Video link:  
http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?266299-ISIS-The-Start-of-World-War-III
 

 


   
 
  
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RE: ISIS The Start of World War III?

2015-07-11 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

You suffer from raving psychological mind ghosts; carefully nurtured paranoid 
Manichean delusions brought upon by the ingestion of too much war propaganda. 

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:36 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?

 

Icke is an interesting, but paranoid character. If ISIS, or any element from 
the Islamic World causes a 4th world war (The Cold War was actually WW3), then 
it is not any member of the Uma's fault, but instead the weakness, the 
cowardice, the irresolution, of 'so called' Western leaders. Perfection with 
one's fellows humans is fraught with disappointment, because people will always 
disappoint. But, the leadership of the so-called West, is so bad that it 
invites attack from ISIS or anyone else.As Bin Laden said, "People like the 
stronger horse." Leaders here are so weak, that if ISIS attacked, they might 
win. Who now knows?  

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Sat, Jul 11, 2015 1:36 am
Subject: Fwd: ISIS The Start of World War III?

Begin forwarded message:  


ISIS The Start of World War III?


David Icke interview 

Video link:   

 
http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?266299-ISIS-The-Start-of-World-War-III
  

 

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Re: A riddle for John Clark

2015-07-11 Thread John Clark

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 3:14 AM, Bruno Marchal  wrote:

> 
> there is no problem with the pronouns when you understand and apply the 1p
> and 3p distinction.
>

The problem is that there is no such thing as "*THE* 1p", there is only
"*A* 1p".  Another problem is that it is never specified who is making this
all important "1p and 3p distinction".  Who's "1p" are we talking about?

> 
> Who will *experience* two-cities?
>

The Helsinki Man. 

> > 
> Nobody will ever experience both cities. Nobody.
>

Then today The Helsinki Man can't mean someone who remembers being 
The Helsinki Man
 yesterday, so what does "The Helsinki Man" mean?  And so by analogy today
 Bruno Marchal can't mean someone who remembers being

Bruno Marchal
 yesterday. So who are you?

> > 
> You ill be in both city, for an outsider point of view (the 3-1 view), and
> you will se only one city (the 1-view).
>

The use of ambiguous personal pronouns comes so easily that Bruno doesn't
even seem to realize that Bruno is using them;  it's like breathing,
thought is required for neither activity.

> 
> He means the guy who has been in Helsinki and has the corresponding memory,
>

And there are TWO people who have that memory, and those TWO people live
in different cities, and if we accept your definition of "he" then it
doesn't take a
Kurt Godel
 to form the logical conclusion that "he" will see TWO cities.

> > 
> the M man, and the W man are both the Helsinki man,
>

Yes.
Pop Quiz:  If for the sake of argument we assume the controversial idea
that 1+1=2 is true then how many cities did the Helsinki man see?

> > 
> but of course they are now different person
>

Yes.

> 
> and both the W and the M man see only once city.
>

Yes.

> > 
> See above.
>

Why?

> 
>  I have still not an atom of clue of what you don't understand.
>

Then you don't understand that you don't understand, and that is the worst
form of ignorance.

John K Clark

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RE: May be of interest

2015-07-11 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Nice articles, Liz and thanks for sharing them. I agree with the first articles 
supposition that infinitely bent spacetime seems more like an artifact of 
theoretical breakdown than a reflection of how the fabric of reality actually 
behaves (under extreme conditions) – infinities in general are indicative of 
missing (or inaccurate) theory. My hats off to these experimentalists; finding 
(and proposing) new clever levers to unveil what seemed impossible for us to 
ever know.

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 10:35 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: May be of interest

 

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/03/testing-general-relativity-using-x-rays/

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/04/new-evidence-that-dark-matter-could-be-self-interacting/

http://arstechnica.co.uk/science/2015/06/relativitys-time-dilation-may-limit-the-quantum-world/

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Re: A riddle for John Clark

2015-07-11 Thread John Clark

On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Terren Suydam 
wrote:

> > 
> It's about continuity of consciousness above all else, and the labels
> change nothing about that.
>

Labels

are what gives meanings to words and all the arguments
you have made on this list are made of words, so now you're saying the
meanings of those words are not important and can be changed to mean
anything. Well you can do that with your words if you want, but I'm not
going to do it with mine.

 John k Clark

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Re: A riddle for John Clark

2015-07-11 Thread Bruno Marchal

On 11 Jul 2015, at 19:34, John Clark wrote:

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 3:14 AM, Bruno Marchal   
wrote:

> there is no problem with the pronouns when you understand and  
apply the 1p and 3p distinction.

The problem is that there is no such thing as "*THE* 1p", there  
is only "*A* 1p".

There is the 1p of the W-guy, and the 1p of the M-guy, and as first  
person experience they are incoptaible. You know in Helsinki with  
certainty (accepting comp and the default hypotheses) that you will en  
up, whoever you can be after the duplication seeing a city.

Another problem

Which problem? I don't see any problem. Just play with words.

is that it is never specified who is making this all important "1p  
and 3p distinction".

The guy in Helsinki when trying to evaluate what to expect from the  
experiential view.

Who's "1p" are we talking about?

The 1p described in the diary of the experiencers.

> Who will *experience* two-cities?

The Helsinki Man. 

Nobody ever experience "two cities" in the sense we have provided for  
first person experience, because, trivially, nobody evcer open a door  
and see two cities simultaneously from its first person experience pov.

> Nobody will ever experience both cities. Nobody.

Then today The Helsinki Man can't mean someone who remembers  
being The Helsinki Man yesterday, so what does "The Helsinki  
Man" mean?

We have already agreed that both the W-guy and the M-guy are the  
Helsinki man. It is not a Leibnizian identity, as we have also agreed  
that after the duplication, the Helsinki man has two incompatible  
continuations, as they both experience a unique city. We loss often  
the Leibnizian identity in intensional or modal contexts. There is no  
problem with that, and that is handled in arithmetic easily later.

And so by analogy today Bruno Marchal can't mean someone who  
remembers being Bruno Marchal yesterday. So who are you?

We do agree on the notion of personal identity. No need to come back  
on this. I am the guy who has BM's private memory. being duplicated  
would not change that. It would just bifurcate my future and introduce  
an indeterminacy on which future I will live.

> You ill be in both city, for an outsider point of view (the  
3-1 view), and you will se only one city (the 1-view).

The use of ambiguous personal pronouns comes so easily that Bruno  
doesn't even seem to realize that Bruno is using them;  it's like  
breathing, thought is required for neither activity.

Only in your head. There is no atoms of ambiguity, as I specify the  
type of view on which the expectations are evaluated.

You are the one introducing again and again the same ambiguity by  
confusing the 3p views and the 1p views.

> He means the guy who has been in Helsinki and has the  
corresponding memory,

And there are TWO people who have that memory,

Yes, that is why there is an indeterminacy.

and those TWO people live in different cities, and if we accept your  
definition of "he" then it doesn't take a Kurt Godel to form  
the logical conclusion that "he" will see TWO cities.

In the 3-1 view, but "he" will never see "two cities", and that  
explained why he cannot predict what he will *live* as experience. You  
never describe the experience lived by each survivors, you describe  
the two survivors experience without taking their content into account  
which can only be W, or M.

That trick has been debunked, many times, but you never quote them, or  
just isolate sentence to make opportunist irrelevant remarks.

> the M man, and the W man are both the Helsinki man,

Yes.
Pop Quiz:  If for the sake of argument we assume the controversial  
idea that 1+1=2 is true then how many cities did the Helsinki man  
see?

Two in the third description of the 1-views of the survivors.

One, in each first person view of each experiencers.

> but of course they are now different person

Yes.

> and both the W and the M man see only once city.

Yes.

So you agree that P(W or M) = 1, and P(W & M) = 0, as P(W) = P(M) is  
very reasonable, we get P(M) = P(W) = 1/2.

Move to step 4, please.

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?

2015-07-11 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List

Thanks dr.

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Sat, Jul 11, 2015 01:09 PM
Subject: RE: ISIS The Start of World War III?




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  You 
suffer from raving psychological mind ghosts; carefully nurtured paranoid 
Manichean delusions brought upon by the ingestion of too much war propaganda. 

   

   

  From: mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com";>everything-list@googlegroups.com
 [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com?";>mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com]
 
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:36 AM
To: mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com";>everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?
   
  Icke is 
an interesting, but paranoid character. If ISIS, or any element from the 
Islamic World causes a 4th world war (The Cold War was actually WW3), then it 
is not any member of the Uma's fault, but instead the weakness, the cowardice, 
the irresolution, of 'so called' Western leaders. Perfection with one's fellows 
humans is fraught with disappointment, because people will always disappoint. 
But, the leadership of the so-called West, is so bad that it invites attack 
from ISIS or anyone else.As Bin Laden said, "People like the stronger horse." 
Leaders here are so weak, that if ISIS attacked, they might win. Who now knows? 
 
  



  
  



  
  



  
  

   -Original
 Message-
From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com>
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jul 11, 2015 1:36 am
Subject: Fwd: ISIS The Start of World War III?
   

 
  Begin 
forwarded message:  
 
 
  

   
ISIS The 
Start of World War III?

 David Icke 
interview 




 Video link:  http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?266299-ISIS-The-Start-of-World-War-III";>http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?266299-ISIS-The-Start-of-World-War-III";
 
target="_blank">http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?266299-ISIS-The-Start-of-World-War-III
  



  


   
  
 
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Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?

2015-07-11 Thread Kim Jones



> On 12 Jul 2015, at 3:09 am, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
>  wrote:
> 
> You suffer from raving psychological mind ghosts; carefully nurtured paranoid 
> Manichean delusions brought upon by the ingestion of too much war propaganda.


"Psychological mind ghosts" - Lol. 

I think with that you probably score the Ignobel Prize for adjectival abuse. 
SB's thinking on this is entirely rational and highly probable from where I am. 
Western leaders ARE all as weak as piss. They are all screaming for someone to 
come along and rip their bloody heads off with a blunt bread knife, yes. Icke 
is something of a nutter, but he at least has the balls to face the music that 
no one else does. 

Kim




>  
>  
> From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:36 AM
> To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?
>  
> Icke is an interesting, but paranoid character. If ISIS, or any element from 
> the Islamic World causes a 4th world war (The Cold War was actually WW3), 
> then it is not any member of the Uma's fault, but instead the weakness, the 
> cowardice, the irresolution, of 'so called' Western leaders. Perfection with 
> one's fellows humans is fraught with disappointment, because people will 
> always disappoint. But, the leadership of the so-called West, is so bad that 
> it invites attack from ISIS or anyone else.As Bin Laden said, "People like 
> the stronger horse." Leaders here are so weak, that if ISIS attacked, they 
> might win. Who now knows? 
>  
>  
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: Samiya Illias 
> To: everything-list 
> Sent: Sat, Jul 11, 2015 1:36 am
> Subject: Fwd: ISIS The Start of World War III?
> 
> Begin forwarded message: 
> ISIS The Start of World War III?
> 
> David Icke interview
> Video link:  
> http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?266299-ISIS-The-Start-of-World-War-III
>  
>  
> -- 
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RE: ISIS The Start of World War III?

2015-07-11 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Who elected you dispenser of prizes, ignobal or otherwise…. net nanny? 

As you make clear by your own subsequent words I can see you must be a fellow 
sufferer of the Manichean delusion, speaking in those exaggerated apocalyptic 
tongues you types favor.

Thanks, but no thanks… I don’t need, desire or see the fruit in your peculiar 
kind of religion; mind set; world view… whatever you wish to call it. It is not 
based on a rational analysis of actual geopolitical strength, but rather 
appeals to irrational Manichean idiocy and lurid anecdotal tales told over and 
over again.

This world of ours is enough of a tinder box already without the added idiocy 
of war mongering nutters – like ISIS as well -- wanting to ignite another 
crusade/jihad.

I hope this makes my opinion even clearer to you. 

Just in case, in typical Manichean fashion you use my complete rejection of 
your hyperbolic world view, as a rhetorical hammer to try to shape me into some 
kind of sympathizer or something vaguely treasonous sounding – as your fellow 
crusader spudboy has in fact insinuated in my case  on numerous previous 
occasions – let me – a priori – make it clear that my current complete 
rejection of your insane fallacy does not imply any kind of support or 
tolerance of the medieval minded brutality of the murderous lunatics of ISIS. 
Just so we are clear on this, and because this is a usual rhetorical tactic 
that war junkies commonly use against those who publicly oppose their agenda. 

 

Now speaking directly to your facile and childish disparaging of the term 
“psychological mind ghosts”. If you actually knew the mind – instead of merely 
pontificating about it, which you seem to do a lot of -- you would know that 
there is quite a bit of evidence that our minds are inhabited by numerous 
zombie neural processes, of which we remain consciously unaware; these are our 
mind ghosts; they are ghosts in our minds. We – the conscious self-aware part 
of ourselves at least -- are to a large degree informed and formed by these 
dynamically evolving entities comprised of synchronized neural firing networks. 
They can take dynamic movies of these neural firing networks evolving as 
thoughts form and perception is perceived! If we did not have any ghosts in our 
minds; would we have any minds at all?

Those who think their self-aware minds are comprised by the narrative voice in 
their heads alone, are suggestive of those who, for so long believed the 
celestial bodies revolved around the earth. If, in fact, you accept that by far 
most of who you are actually occurs outside of the boundaries of your own 
self-aware narrative (and narrator); then why on earth would you feel that 
“psychological mind ghosts” was just an insult, worthy of your net nanny 
interventionist response, awarding me the most Ignobal prize – so kind of you 
to do that really.

More people die of bee stings… bathtub falls… and certainly far more people die 
and become horribly wounded in traffic accidents than people dying by this kind 
of terrorism; yet you seem to want to raise it up on the altar of some bloody 
crusade around which we must all align ourselves marching lemming like over the 
cliffs of oblivion. Excuse me, but I am going to pass on that world view, and I 
will continue to ridicule it as well; it is a world view most richly deserving 
of ridicule.

Let us laugh together… for it is patently ridiculous that ISIS poses an 
existential threat to the USA, or even to your own country Australia. Unless 
you are living in Syria or Iraq, or somewhere that is too close to the small 
region where ISIS has the logistical ability to pose a threat then it is not a 
threat and to insist that it must be our most existential cause around which we 
must all rally… well that just reeks of fascism to me.

Yours truly,

-Chris

 

 

 

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kim Jones
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 5:40 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?

 

 

On 12 Jul 2015, at 3:09 am, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
 wrote:

You suffer from raving psychological mind ghosts; carefully nurtured paranoid 
Manichean delusions brought upon by the ingestion of too much war propaganda. 

 

 

"Psychological mind ghosts" - Lol. 

 

I think with that you probably score the Ignobel Prize for adjectival abuse. 
SB's thinking on this is entirely rational and highly probable from where I am. 
Western leaders ARE all as weak as piss. They are all screaming for someone to 
come along and rip their bloody heads off with a blunt bread knife, yes. Icke 
is something of a nutter, but he at least has the balls to face the music that 
no one else does. 

 

Kim

 

 

 





 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:36 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: ISIS The

RE: ISIS The Start of World War III?

2015-07-11 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Only you can free yourself from the unhealthy war paranoia that seethes -- 
largely unexamined -- within your mind. 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 4:11 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?

Thanks dr.

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Sat, Jul 11, 2015 01:09 PM
Subject: RE: ISIS The Start of World War III?

You suffer from raving psychological mind ghosts; carefully nurtured paranoid 
Manichean delusions brought upon by the ingestion of too much war propaganda. 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 ] 
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:36 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?

Icke is an interesting, but paranoid character. If ISIS, or any element from 
the Islamic World causes a 4th world war (The Cold War was actually WW3), then 
it is not any member of the Uma's fault, but instead the weakness, the 
cowardice, the irresolution, of 'so called' Western leaders. Perfection with 
one's fellows humans is fraught with disappointment, because people will always 
disappoint. But, the leadership of the so-called West, is so bad that it 
invites attack from ISIS or anyone else.As Bin Laden said, "People like the 
stronger horse." Leaders here are so weak, that if ISIS attacked, they might 
win. Who now knows?  

-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Sat, Jul 11, 2015 1:36 am
Subject: Fwd: ISIS The Start of World War III?

Begin forwarded message:  

ISIS The Start of World War III?

David Icke interview 

Video link:  
http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?266299-ISIS-The-Start-of-World-War-III

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