Re: An AI program that teaches itself

[Brent Meeker]

On 10/27/2017 9:30 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Brent Meeker >wrote:


​> ​
There are a lot of other painkillers

But
​ ​
marijuana
​ ​
is the only painkiller I know of that has a 0% chance of death by 
overdose, and yet it is illegal to use in most states, even for

​cancer​
 patients in agony.  But Aspirin is legal
​and​
 that can
​kill​
 you,
​


So can table salt.  "The dose makes the poison." - Paracelsus


and ​
Oxycodone
​ is legal too and
if
​the pain is too strong for ​
Aspirin the law encourages you to switch to
​that
​or some ​
other
​ ​
opioid which is projected to kill 500,000 Americans in the next decade
​.


And air pollution, mostly from fossil fuel extraction and burning, is 
projected to kill 2 million.

http://news.mit.edu/2013/study-air-pollution-causes-20-early-deaths-each-year-in-the-us-0829

Bent

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Re: An AI program that teaches itself

[Brent Meeker]

On 10/27/2017 9:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Then the discovery that THC (cannabis main cannabinoid, the 
psycho-tropic one) shrink cerebral rumor of mice was dismissed and 
stopped, and remain largely ignored. It is a total inhuman shame! 


I looked at that paper.  It was statistically bogus.

Brent

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Re: An AI program that teaches itself

[Brent Meeker]

On 10/27/2017 9:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
The "Schedule One" notion does not make sense: to forbid research on 
something because it would be dangerous. Why not forbid research in 
guns, bombs, or car, plane train, I meant, except cannabis, what is 
not dangerous? 


Did you know that the U.S. Congress forbids the Center for Disease 
Control (whose charter is to research public health issues) to research 
firearm related deaths.


Brent

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Re: An AI program that teaches itself

[Bruno Marchal]

On 26 Oct 2017, at 22:33, Brent Meeker wrote:




On 10/26/2017 12:51 PM, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 2:30 PM, Brent Meeker  
 wrote:


​> ​ Are you claiming, without evidence, that cannabis is  
cheaper and safer than all other pain killers?


​I don't know about Bruno but I am claiming ​i n the entire  
history of the world there is not ​been ​ one confirmed case ​ 
of  death by marijuana ​ ​ overdose, the same can not be said of  
aspirin. In addition ​,​ recent studies have found that after  
states in the USA legalized marijuana ​ ​ overdose deaths ​ 
from opioids  ​DECREASED by 25%. ​ ​O xycodone ​ used for  
chronic pain can kill you but  marijuana ​ can not, and it's only  
a unfortunate historical accident that alcohol is socially  
acceptable but cannabis is ​ not.​


(1) There are a lot of other painkillers


Yes, but except salvia, they are usually either more addictive (under  
the same conditions) and more toxic, and more expensive.




and (2) marijuana is not equally effective as oxycodone and (3) in  
many states and nations doctors can prescribe marijuana just as they  
can other pain killers.


Well, Perou is just the sixth states in South-America to have  
legalized medical cannabis, but in the US ii is illegal at the federal  
level, and cannabis is still schedule one, which means no right to do  
research, or only with many difficulties, ... Big-Pharma resists, and  
we can understand.






And I'm 100% in favor of legalizing marijuana and have been for  
decades - not because I think it has any amazing medical powers, but  
because "the war on (some) drugs" is a civil rights disaster,  
screwing up people's lives right and left and distorting law  
enforcement (c.f. civil forefiture).


OK, we agree on this.

Bruno





Brent



By the way, I have never smoked a ​ marijuana ​ cigarette in my  
life, so far I've never had the need but if I ever get cancer I  
would certainly start with a joint before I moved onto O xycodone ​ 
.


http://www.newsweek.com/opioid-marijuana-legal-states-hospital-overdose-addiction-575385


​John K Clark​







Brent

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: An AI program that teaches itself

[John Clark]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Brent Meeker  wrote:

​> ​
> There are a lot of other painkillers
>

But
​ ​
marijuana
​ ​
is the only painkiller I know of that has a 0% chance of death by overdose,
and yet it is illegal to use in most states, even for
​cancer​
 patients in agony.  But Aspirin is legal
​and​
 that can
​kill​
 you,
​and ​
Oxycodone
​ is legal too and
if
​the pain is too strong for ​
Aspirin the law encourages you to switch to
​that

​or some ​
other
​ ​
opioid which is projected to kill 500,000 Americans in the next decade
​. And if you defy the law and choose marijuana instead the law will do its
best to see to it that your last days are not only spent in agony they will
also be spent in jail.

This is the Trump administration's idea of getting government off out backs.

 John K Clark

 ​

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Re: An AI program that teaches itself

[Bruno Marchal]

On 26 Oct 2017, at 20:43, Brent Meeker wrote:




On 10/26/2017 7:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 25 Oct 2017, at 21:15, Brent Meeker wrote:




On 10/25/2017 5:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
I am not entirely sure of this. I think that in the long term,  
the free-market can work, both for preserving resource and  
happiness.
We might have a different feelings due to the fact that it does  
not seem to have work with us, but the reason is that we don't  
have a free-market, given that we have the prohibition laws. Even  
at the start, Henri Ford, who made his 300 first Ford car in  
Hemp, and using Hemp, defended the Hemp for building car by  
saying that it is a renewable resource, and that it would not  
perturb the current concentration of 0_2, C0_2. If the Market  
would have been free, most people would have used Hemp (which was  
the petrol before petrol) instead of petrol.


Nonsense.  Hemp was grown for rope.  It was never a fuel.


Rudolph Diesel and Henri Ford seems to have conceived and planned  
to build their engine with hemp and vegetable source of oil.  
Googling on I don't find real refutation of this. Of course they  
did not succeed.




Henry Ford built a car whose body panels were made from plant  
cellulose, mostly from soybeans but including 10% hemp.  But it  
was never shown to be economically viable or durable enough to  
replace steel.  Notice that when GM built plastic bodied cars, the  
Corvette, Saturn, Fiero...they did not make the plastic from  
soybeans or hemp and the cars have not aged well.  The plastic  
hardens and cracks.


Because they did not make bio-plastic indeed. To be sure, we don't  
know the life-time of bio-plastic either, given that all such  
project have been impeached by prohibition.






To sell something as toxic and disgusting as petrol, you *need*  
to abolish the free market, which is what happened. After that  
you do lose happiness, and you do destroy basically everything  
quickly, hopefully in a reversible way.
Free-market is like evolution. It does not see anything in the  
long term, but can still lead to building things which can see in  
a longer and longer terms.


Bruno


I'm afraid you've become a crank on this point...as though  
marijuana the basis and measure of world capitalism.


No, only a witnessing of the inexistence of capitalism or what we  
call in Europe liberalism, that is simply the non-existence of a  
free market.


How could we have a a free-market if we tolerate that a government  
decide what can and cannot be consumed? That makes no sense at all.  
Without legal market, you only create the criminal market, and this  
can only augment the consumption, and the possible dangers, of the  
product.


A legal market can be a regulated market.


Exactly.





A criminal market is by definition unregulated.


Exactly.



There is no inspection, no labeling requirements, no enforcement of  
contracts, no penalty for fraud,...


Yes. It is rare that a street drug dealer advise you to respect a  
posology. Nor will he ask for the identity cart if his patient/client/ 
victim ...





So you should be happy that marijuana is available in a criminal  
market instead of a legal one where the government would interfere.



?










Prohibition is only that: to prevent the market to be controlled by  
the actual need of the people. It benefits only to criminals, and  
partially to their hostages.


Is that why the emperor tried to prohibit the opium trade in China?


He tried to protect his people from an act of war. Opium was free, and  
not a problem, but has been abnormally and artificially propagated,  
with politics interfering, not the need of the people. Opiates need  
medical prescription, I would say.









A "drug" is only a medication which can become dangerous when  
prohibited. Have you heard a street dealer telling his "client" to  
respect the posology? Or asking for a medical prescription?


The vocation of a drug is to reduce the harm, but prohibition  
entails the complete opposite. Even legal medication becomes  
dangerous in time of prohibition, because the goal is no more to  
cure and helps people, but to maximize benefits. Money, the  
wonderful mean, is transformed into a senseless goal.


Then you should be happy to buy your medicines from the street  
stalls in Thailand and Somolia.


I doubt it could be graver than here, but I have no clue what you  
think about. I have not been in Thailand and Somalia.









I am a classical thinker. I think that once we tolerate one lie, we  
quickly get many lies, if not all.


That's the kind ideological thinking that leads to totalitarianism -  
every imperfection must be eliminated or nothing will work.


Only the lies, or known error, must be stopped, as soon as possible,  
as they propagate.


The rigor of thought, and reason, are the best prevention against  
totalitarianism.


This ask for modesty, and the acceptance that we are not perfect, but  
this 

Re: An AI program that teaches itself

[Bruno Marchal]

On 26 Oct 2017, at 20:30, Brent Meeker wrote:




On 10/26/2017 6:05 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Brent Meeker  
 wrote:


On 10/25/2017 5:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

I am not entirely sure of this. I think that in the long term, the
free-market can work, both for preserving resource and happiness.
We might have a different feelings due to the fact that it does  
not seem to
have work with us, but the reason is that we don't have a free- 
market, given
that we have the prohibition laws. Even at the start, Henri Ford,  
who made
his 300 first Ford car in Hemp, and using Hemp, defended the Hemp  
for
building car by saying that it is a renewable resource, and that  
it would
not perturb the current concentration of 0_2, C0_2. If the Market  
would have
been free, most people would have used Hemp (which was the petrol  
before

petrol) instead of petrol.


Nonsense.  Hemp was grown for rope.  It was never a fuel.  Henry  
Ford built
a car whose body panels were made from plant cellulose, mostly  
from soybeans
but including 10% hemp.  But it was never shown to be economically  
viable or
durable enough to replace steel.  Notice that when GM built  
plastic bodied
cars, the Corvette, Saturn, Fiero...they did not make the plastic  
from
soybeans or hemp and the cars have not aged well.  The plastic  
hardens and

cracks.

To sell something as toxic and disgusting as petrol, you *need* to  
abolish
the free market, which is what happened. After that you do lose  
happiness,
and you do destroy basically everything quickly, hopefully in a  
reversible

way.
Free-market is like evolution. It does not see anything in the  
long term,
but can still lead to building things which can see in a longer  
and longer

terms.

Bruno


I'm afraid you've become a crank on this point...as though  
marijuana the

basis and measure of world capitalism.

It seems reasonable to assume that the negative social impact of the
alcohol prohibition is not a fluke, but instead a natural consequence
of any prohibition.


Yes, an prohibition, in fact any action, has negative as well as  
positive natural consequences.  Did the British bringing free-market  
opium trade to China have positive as well as negative  
consequences...sure it did.



I personally am in favor of laws, but only laws which makes sense into  
helping and protecting people, not laws enforced by special interest  
of  minorities.


The British bringing free-market opium trade was basically an act of  
war. Opiates, which can be addictive for depressed or despair people  
(or rat, like those alone in a small cage), should better be  
prescribed medically, with some posology, I think.











It is also not a well-kept secret that there is collusion between
corporate interests and state actors to maintain prohibitions, and
that these reasons (already present in the times of Al Capone), have
little to do with a concern for public health. You need to go no
further than the current opioid crisis in the US. The corporate
interests promoting this terrible addiction are the same that lobby
for keeping the much safer and cheaper alternative illegal.


Are you claiming, without evidence, that cannabis is cheaper and  
safer than all other pain killers?


There are tuns of evidence, in vivo, in vitro, personal, close  
friends, and their friends, etc. In Belgium and France you can see an  
abundance of pharma-shops. But most people using cannabis see their  
medication budget dropping very quickly.
I have has sciatic many years ago (I think I told the list about  
this). After 2/3 month of intense "legal" unsuccessful treatment, when  
the doctor told me I need surgery, I tried cannabis. After three days,  
I felt well, and after three weeks I was back at work. One case is not  
a statistics, and cannabis has the same drawback than alcohol,  
benzodiazepine and most long term muscular relaxant, which happens to  
be bad for me, so I use it as a medication with strong moderation. But  
you can also find thousand of wittnessing on Youtube.


The humans seem to know the medical, and industrial virtue of Hemp  
since more than 5000 years.


Some medical people voted for the interdiction of marijuana, described  
as a killer, without knowing it was hemp. The origin of prohibition  
was a masquerade. A clever choice of bandits who understood that  
prohibition can only work with a non dangerous product, because it  
augment the consumption and the danger, as they understood with  
alcohol prohibition.


Prohibition is born from the collusion of the racist anti-mexicans, +  
the interest of the paper-wood industry, the petrol, (textile and  
pharma) alcohol, tobacco, + the descendents of Al Capone and the  
underground criminals.


The "Schedule One" notion does not make sense: to forbid research on  
something because it would be dangerous. Why not forbid research in  
guns, bombs, or car, plane train, I meant, except cannabis, 

Re: An AI program that teaches itself

[Telmo Menezes]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Brent Meeker  wrote:
>
>
> On 10/26/2017 12:51 PM, John Clark wrote:
>
> On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 2:30 PM, Brent Meeker  wrote:
>
>> >
>> Are you claiming, without evidence, that cannabis is cheaper and safer
>> than all other pain killers?
>
>
> I don't know about Bruno but I am claiming i
> n the entire history of the world there is not
> been
> one confirmed case
> of
> death by marijuana
> overdose, the same can not be said of aspirin. In addition
> ,
> recent studies have found that after states in the USA legalized marijuana
> overdose deaths
> from opioids
> DECREASED by 25%.
> O
> xycodone
> used for chronic pain can kill you but
> marijuana
> can not, and it's only a unfortunate historical accident that alcohol is
> socially acceptable but
> cannabis is
> not.
>
>
> (1) There are a lot of other painkillers

Yes, I was alluding specifically to the current opiate crisis in the
US, which appears to be fueled by drugs that are prescribed by doctors
-- specifically Oxycodone, as John said, as well as Fentanyl. Two
drugs that generate big bucks for the pharmaceutical companies as well
as for the health insurance racket that you guys suffer under.

There is now some evidence that people have been weening themselves
off of prescribed opiates in Colorado. The number of deaths by opiate
overdose decreases since cannabis was legalized. There are still
confounding factors, so we can't draw strong conclusions, but the
upshot in public health and safety is so big that this is definitely
something to consider.

> and (2) marijuana is not equally
> effective as oxycodone

Well, a machine gun is not as effective as a nuclear bomb...

I have no doubt that oxycodone is the right choice for certain cases.
I also have no doubt that it is being overprescribed for profit,
otherwise how do you explain the current crisis? There are reports of
doctors advising patients to stop using cannabis and switching to
oxycodone. Patients that feel that cannabis is working well to manage
their pain. This is immoral. Oxycodone is a very dangerous drug. It is
highly addictive (unlike cannabis) and can kill you (unlike cannabis).
There is overwhelming evidence for this. Don't take my word for it,
check the research of the world-class experts, such as Dr. David Nutt
-- who was sacked out of a government advisory position by the UK
government because he was not willing to go along with the lies.

> and (3) in many states and nations doctors can
> prescribe marijuana just as they can other pain killers.

Not so many nations, unfortunately. Even in the US, this is still
being resisted at the federal level by lobbyists. Who do these
lobbyists represent? Pharmaceutical companies. Don't you find this
strange?

Regarding price, it would be dirt cheap if not for
prohibition/sin-taxes. It's a weed. It grows very easily. Orders of
magnitude cheaper than pharmaceutical-grade opiates.

> And I'm 100% in favor of legalizing marijuana and have been for decades -
> not because I think it has any amazing medical powers, but because "the war
> on (some) drugs" is a civil rights disaster, screwing up people's lives
> right and left and distorting law enforcement (c.f. civil forefiture).

Alright. That's the humane position to have.
It can be a wonderful substance for certain people and certain
conditions, as other substances can.
Just please don't argue for lack of evidence in terms of safety. There
is overwhelming evidence that it is much safer than many commonly used
(and legal) drugs.

Best,
Telmo.

> Brent
>
>
>
> By the way, I have never smoked a
> marijuana
> cigarette in my life, so far I've never had the need but if I ever get
> cancer I would certainly start with a joint before I moved onto
> O
> xycodone
> .
>
> http://www.newsweek.com/opioid-marijuana-legal-states-hospital-overdose-addiction-575385
>
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Brent
>>
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>
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