Re: [SPAM] Re: God has no name

2012-08-13 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 13 Aug 2012, at 06:42, meekerdb wrote:


On 8/12/2012 1:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Let phi_i be an enumeration of the (partial) computable function.

u is universal if phi_u(x, y) = phi_x(y).   (x,y) = some number   
code for the couple (x, y)


So can y be some number code for a pair (a,b) and b a code for a  
pair (c,d),...?


Why not? It can make sense in some circumstance, but by (x,y) I meant  
just a bijection between NxN and N. What the machine will do with the  
numbers is up to them.


It is indeed frequent to code list of numbers like (x, y, z) by the  
couple (x, (y, z)). Similarly for longer sequence, by iterating that  
procedure.


You wrote in another post:

Evgenii: What does intelligence means in this context that life is  
unintelligent? Let us compare for example a bacterium and a rock.  
Where there is more intelligence?


Bruno: Bacteria are provably Turing complete, rocks are not.


Brent: Bacteria a certainly smarter than rocks by any reasonable  
measure.  But I don't think a bacterium has a semi-infinite tape.


All machines, including the universal one, are finite object. Turing  
discovery is really the discovery of a finite Turing machine u such  
that phi_u(x, y) = phi_x(y).


Wolfram's problem consisted in finding the smallest possible Turing- 
universal machine coded in cellular automata language. Again he asked  
for something finite (even if needing an infinite plan to do any of  
its possible work).


The infinite tape is only a rather misleading pedagogical folklore.  
Example of universal number are brain, computer, programming  
language interpreters, etc. Universal pattern in the game of life are  
finite pattern. The infinite tape here is the infinite plan. The  
infinite tape of the human has been provided by the wall of the  
cavern, the pebble, knots, the papers, the books and diaries, the  
magnetic tapes, the physical reality itself, etc. The infinite tape  
plays the role of a potential infinite neighborhood in which the  
memory of the machine can extend itself. It is not part of any  
machine, as the notion of machine requires finiteness.
And in that sense bacteria have infinite tapes: the soil, or liquid,  
or gel in which they multiply.


That is why I use the label universal *number*, to always keep in  
mind that those Turing universal being are finite entities. (By number  
I always mean natural number 0, 1, 2, ...).
The universal machines are not God. In the arithmetical translation of  
Plotinus, they play the role of man, or discursive reasoner in  
Plotinus. yet, their canonical first person person attached with them  
(by incompleteness; or by the distinction between Bp and Bpp) is a  
sort of God, at least from the machine's point of view (it is  
infinite, in some sense, and not arithmetically definable).


Bruno




http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: [SPAM] Re: God has no name

2012-08-13 Thread meekerdb

On 8/13/2012 7:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


The infinite tape is only a rather misleading pedagogical folklore. Example of universal 
number are brain, computer, programming language interpreters, etc. Universal pattern 
in the game of life are finite pattern. The infinite tape here is the infinite plan. The 
infinite tape of the human has been provided by the wall of the cavern, the pebble, 
knots, the papers, the books and diaries, the magnetic tapes, the physical reality 
itself, etc. The infinite tape plays the role of a potential infinite neighborhood in 
which the memory of the machine can extend itself. It is not part of any machine, as the 
notion of machine requires finiteness.
And in that sense bacteria have infinite tapes: the soil, or liquid, or gel in which 
they multiply. 


That's why I carfully wrote bacterium instead of bacteria.  Bacteria can reproduce and 
evolve and so can be universal computers.  But when Evgenii asked to compare rocks and 
bacteria, he meant a rock as compared to a bacterium.


This seems to come back to my previous question about a robot.  Yes, I can see that a 
bacterium *could be* a universal Turing machine, that is with the right code in it's 
DNA/RNA.  But I don't see that it follows that if I pick a bacterium a random it will be a 
UTM or even that there is any bacterium on Earth that is a UTM.


Brent

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Re: [SPAM] Re: God has no name

2012-08-12 Thread meekerdb

On 8/12/2012 1:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Let phi_i be an enumeration of the (partial) computable function.

u is universal if phi_u(x, y) = phi_x(y).   (x,y) = some number  code for the 
couple (x, y)


So can y be some number code for a pair (a,b) and b a code for a pair (c,d),...?

Brent


So phi_u is able to compute phi_i for all i. In that case we say that u emulate 
x on y.

u can emulate itself, as in phi_u(u, x) = phi_u(x), but u does not emulate itself per 
se, by its own functioning.


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