Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute
Mark Peaty wrote: No Brent, what I AM saying is that they are GONE! Well and truly gorrnn! But they lasted a lot longer than we have. We could get side tracked into all sorts of discussions about how each of the civilisations you named, waxed and waned more than once in the face of environmental changes and the inherent instability of feudal societies, but I haven't got the time [fascinating though it would be :-]. My point is that, with all due respect to the late Douglas Adams, and I suppose to whoever it was who wrote the book of Daniel in the Judaeo-Xian Bible, the TRUE Writing on the Wall AKA God's last message to humankind, is five short words in plain-English: * Shape up or die out! What I say is if we really want to 'shape up' and survive, then compassion, democracy, ethics and scientific method are four essential ingredients without which our modern world will go the way of all those other civilisations your mentioned. It will go the way of those other civilizations anyway because: a) it's dependent on energy from cheap oil and b) all civilizations rise and fall, none last forever. Brent Meeker Nations and empires flourish and decay, By turns command, and in their turns obey. --- Publius Ovidius Naso --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny
The only connection I can think of is as follows. For any given religious text there should exist a universe which best fits those text. Saibal - Original Message - From: Wei Dai [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 11:55 PM Subject: Re: Believing in Divine Destiny A year ago or so Wei Dai put an end to religious discussions on the list. I don't remember if I did that a year ago or not, but I certainly think the current discussion is off-topic. This mailing list is based on the premise that all possible universes exist. Unless someone can think of a connection to this idea, can we please drop this thread? I have also noticed that all of [EMAIL PROTECTED]'s posts are copy-and-pastes from online sources: http://www.islamanswers.net/destiny/recorded.htm http://www.islamanswers.net/unity/understand.htm http://sg.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070226110342AAy6SG5 http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/quran/quran_proof_preservation.htm Copying other people's writings without attribution is plagiarism, which I certainly do not approve of. And aside from that, if anyone wants to reference large amounts of online material, please post a link instead of copying the text. P.S., I find that I am not always able to keep up with all of the discussions on the list. Putting my name in a post is a good way to get my attention, and please always feel free to email me directly with any administrative issues related to the list. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute
Dream on Brent ... Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Brent Meeker wrote: Klortho wrote: The other thing I do is check to what extent a person's speech and writings support and affirm the four fundamental ingredients of civilisation: Compassion, democracy, ethics and scientific method. No civilisation can survive without all four of these. Talk about assertions without any evidence! Actually there's a lot of evidence that civilization developed and survived until recently without democracy or the scientific method. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: [SPAM] Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countle
OK, tell me where all those civilisations of the past have gone to, because THEY did NOT survived. Tell me what makes YOU so sure this current global civilisation can survive. I am more than happy to be shown where I am wrong, but if you TRULY disagree with what I am saying, I would like you to provide some clear and unambiguous empirical evidence to back up your assertions. Without that, you are simply complaining that I am just strongly expressing an opinion. I never deny this, in the context that we are speaking of here, but I think that my opinion on this is as good as anybody's that I have seen so far. To help you chew on this: * compassion is the acting out of the ability to see oneself in the other and the recognition that, except for the throw of some cosmic dice, I am he or she and they are me; compassion facilitates the breaking down of the fear and false consciousness which underpins unconscious projection; compassion is a sign and manifestation of authentic being and strength, not weakness; without compassion truly human life is well nigh impossible * ethics is the foundation of civilisation and is the acting out of the ability to see that we each depend on many, many others for our survival and well being and they depend upon us, and that the true genius and strength of humankind is our ability to cooperate with each other rather than a propensity to strive against others * democracy is essentially the systematic implementation of the non-violent resolution of conflict, it requires that everyone's voice be heard and democracy advances as the excessive and aggressive power of the rich and powerful is curtailed and controlled; Karl Popper gave the most succinct explanation of why democracy is both better than all the alternatives and absolutely essential and the basic form of his argument is this: all policies formulated by governments and governing bodies will have unexpected negative consequences, no matter how good the policies, and it is to be expected that at least 50% of the unforeseen consequences will be significantly adverse and negative for those who experience them so it is imperative that the negative consequences of policies be made known to those who govern and that the rulers take notice and actually ameliorate the problems. If the rulers cannot be made to correct these unforeseen negative outcomes then over time the negative outcomes will accrue to the extent that the people feel driven to rebel or vote with their feet and leave the land of the rotten regime. * the advent of scientific method into human culture is what has made the modern world; this modern era is a time of transition in which every traditional belief and practice is being challenged by the application of scientific method and of the fruits of the application of science; in this world of great and ceaseless changes, the continued application of scientific method is and always will be essential for allowing us to adapt to all the unforeseen outcomes of change so far; with scientific method human beings have the ability to journey out into the solar system and beyond, to be citizens of the galaxy, but without scientific method humans will die out on a devastated planet Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Klortho wrote: The other thing I do is check to what extent a person's speech and writings support and affirm the four fundamental ingredients of civilisation: Compassion, democracy, ethics and scientific method. No civilisation can survive without all four of these. Talk about assertions without any evidence! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: [SPAM] Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countle
Well [EMAIL PROTECTED] your response has been even more disappointing than even my very low expectation prepared me for. You have not even recognised what my questions were about, let alone made any significant attempt to address them. As an ex-Christian I know what it is like to be sucked into a world view that projects part of one's own nature into a 'spiritual being' and projects other, completely unacknowledged and rejected parts of one's psyche onto outsiders who are perceived as being threatening and evil because they exhibit those impulses rather than oneself. However, we must call a spade a spade; all this guff that gets called 'theology' and 'spirituality' is ultimately a bunch of assertions that can neither be proved nor disproved in any concrete sense because they are all expressions of belief and ONLY belief. Because there is no way of relating these holy ramblings to any concrete test, belief in them becomes, as often as not, a function of a person's social and political allegiances. The beliefs change to comply with and rationalise the ambitions and practices of the ruling elite. The chanting of sacred texts and the recitation of beliefs become assurances of acceptance, badges of compliance with the regime. There will be NO significant contributions to the well being and advancement of human kind arising from this religiosity, just acquiescence and the turning of a blind eye to the crimes of the rulers and the thugs who impose the anti democratic rule. The moral and intellectual contrast is expressed most vividly, I think, by the way a free-thinking monk called Giordano Bruno was vilified, stripped naked, tortured and finally burnt alive by the inquisitor thugs of the Roman church, in a public square somewhere in Rome 17 February 1600. His crime? Being a sceptic and publicly questioning some of the preposterous beliefs that religion required people to agree to. He was murdered because the sceptical method he advocated and employed threatened the very foundations of the corrupt religious hierarchy and the secular regimes - all feudal thug-ocracies. From what I read, hear, and see reported about Islam in Iran, Iraq, Saudi, and umpteen other places, the basic issues are the same as for Christianity. The holders and wielders of traditional power WILL not acknowledge that the demonstrated power of scientific method to show us how the natural world works and to show us deep insights into how the human brain and mind work has a moral authority at least equal to that of their 'holy' books. THIS is the real challenge of the 20 and 21 centuries. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jesus said: I and the Father are one (Jn.10:30), therefore, is not Jesus the same, or, co-equal in status with his Father? Answer No.1 In Greek, `heis' means `one' numerically (masc.) `hen' means `one' in unity or essence (neut.) Here the word used by John is `hen' and not `heis'. The marginal notes in New American Standard Bible (NASB) reads; one - (Lit.neuter) a unity, or, one essence. If one wishes to argue that the word `hen' supports their claim for Jesus being co-equal in status with his Father, please invite his/ her attention to the following verse: Jesus said: And the glory which Thou hast given me, I have given to them (disciples); that they may be one, just as we are one. (John 17:22). If he/she was to consider/regard/believe the Father and Jesus Christ to be one meaning co-equal in status on the basis of John 10:30, then that person should also be prepared to consider/regard/believe them - the disciples of Jesus, to be co-equal in status with the Father and Jesus (just as we are one) in John 17:22. I have yet to find a person that would be prepared to make the disciples (students) co-equal in status with the Father or Jesus. The unity and accord was of the authorized divine message that originated from the Father, received by Jesus and finally passed on to the disciples. Jesus admitted having accomplished the work which the Father had given him to do. (Jn.17:4) Hot Tip (precise and pertinent) Jesus said: I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I. (Jn.14:28). This verse unequivocally refutes the claim by any one for Jesus being co-equal in status with his Father. Question No.2 Jesus said: I am the way, ...no one comes to the Father, but through me. (Jn.14:6), therefore, is not the Salvation through Jesus, ALONE? Answer No.2 Before Jesus spoke these words, he said; In my Father's house are many mansions (dwelling places); if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion (a dwelling place) for you. (John 14:2). The above explicit statement confirms that Jesus was going to prepare a mansion and not all the mansions in my Father's house. Obviously, the
Re: [SPAM] Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countle
Torgny Tholerus wrote: Mark Peaty skrev: However, we must call a spade a spade; all this guff that gets called 'theology' and 'spirituality' is ultimately a bunch of assertions that can neither be proved nor disproved in any concrete sense because they are all expressions of belief and ONLY belief. I have written an essay called: A Proof of the Existence of God and Why does Universe Exist (11 pages), where I scientifically prove that God exist (or rather prove that it is probable that God exists...). This essay is attached. -- Torgny Tholerus It is an equivocation on personality=consciouness=cooperation and a non-standard meaning of God. Here's a much simpler proof: God is love. Love exists. Therefore: God exists. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute
Are you saying I just dreamed that Sumer, Ur, Egypt, Babylon, Rome, Sparta, Cathay, and the Indus Valley where civilization first developed and lasted for thousands of years (much longer than the U.S. which is the oldest existing democracy) were not democratic and pre-dated the scientific method? Brent Meeker Mark Peaty wrote: Dream on Brent ... Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Brent Meeker wrote: Klortho wrote: The other thing I do is check to what extent a person's speech and writings support and affirm the four fundamental ingredients of civilisation: Compassion, democracy, ethics and scientific method. No civilisation can survive without all four of these. Talk about assertions without any evidence! Actually there's a lot of evidence that civilization developed and survived until recently without democracy or the scientific method. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny
Excellent, Saibal Mitra! Thanx! Now you just have to quantize the miracles into a physix that fits those scriptures - into 'physical laws' of those religions. Maybe it would require a different math as well, to make a fit. And do not forget about the calory-supply of Hell. (Brimstone requires oxygen, to burn - at least in THIS universe.) John M Original Message - From: Saibal Mitra To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 8:08 AM Subject: Re: Believing in Divine Destiny The only connection I can think of is as follows. For any given religious text there should exist a universe which best fits those text. Saibal - Original Message - From: Wei Dai [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 11:55 PM Subject: Re: Believing in Divine Destiny A year ago or so Wei Dai put an end to religious discussions on the list. I don't remember if I did that a year ago or not, but I certainly think the current discussion is off-topic. This mailing list is based on the premise that all possible universes exist. Unless someone can think of a connection to this idea, can we please drop this thread? I have also noticed that all of [EMAIL PROTECTED]'s posts are copy-and-pastes from online sources: http://www.islamanswers.net/destiny/recorded.htm http://www.islamanswers.net/unity/understand.htm http://sg.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070226110342AAy6SG5 http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/quran/quran_proof_preservation.htm Copying other people's writings without attribution is plagiarism, which I certainly do not approve of. And aside from that, if anyone wants to reference large amounts of online material, please post a link instead of copying the text. P.S., I find that I am not always able to keep up with all of the discussions on the list. Putting my name in a post is a good way to get my attention, and please always feel free to email me directly with any administrative issues related to the list. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 3:24 PM --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute
[EMAIL PROTECTED], I rarely pass up an opportunity for religious debate, but I am honestly overwhelmed by your recent posts. I hope you have not done all this work just to be relegated to the list archive. How did you find us, anyway? Stathis Papaioannou --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny
Stathis: You, of all people, should realize that one belief system cannot reach over to another one. Logic - mindset is different, facts come in different shades, evidence is adjusted to the 'system', a belief system is a whole world. Brent makes the same mistake: to argue from his 'scientific' (is it really - in the conventional old sense???) mindset with statements of the faithful, but it is a geerally committed error - while you, a learned mind-scientist should know better. I am not on top of this myself: I fall frequently into arguing from my 'rational' worldview into the (rational for them) faith-induced mentality. We are the (negligible) minority. They have less doubts than us. So I thank [EMAIL PROTECTED] (whoever he or she may be) for the valuable intofmation about the Muslim culture and take it as that. We will never get a jihadic self-sacrificer to accept that his expectation of the huris waitnig for pleasuring him 'over there' is unfounded. It is for him and who cares (in my view) for 'happenings' of our present (human) copmplexity after it dissolved (call it death) into disintegration? A year ago or so Wei Dai put an end to religious discussions on the list. That was in the Judeochristian domain. He was right on the button. Is the Judeochrismuslim argumental domain different? Such discussions cannot be resolved into any agreement of the 2 poles. Anybody arguing - MY - point? John Mikes On 2/26/07, Stathis Papaioannou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But how do you know that the Qu'ran is actually the word of God? People claim all sorts of things, and while it's often easy to prove that they *claimed* these things (although as you rightly point out, with many religions, such as Christianity, even this is not a given), the point is to prove that these things are *true*. The more incredible-sounding, the more proof is needed. If I tell you I had a conversation with my mother last night you would probably have no reason to demand proof, but if I tell you I had a conversation with God or aliens or Elvis Presley, then you'd be foolish to just accept it, even if it can be shown that I genuinely believe what I am claiming. Stathis Papaioannou On 2/27/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Skip text --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny
On 2/28/07, John Mikes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stathis: You, of all people, should realize that one belief system cannot reach over to another one. Logic - mindset is different, facts come in different shades, evidence is adjusted to the 'system', a belief system is a whole world. Brent makes the same mistake: to argue from his 'scientific' (is it really - in the conventional old sense???) mindset with statements of the faithful, but it is a geerally committed error - while you, a learned mind-scientist should know better. I am not on top of this myself: I fall frequently into arguing from my 'rational' worldview into the (rational for them) faith-induced mentality. [EMAIL PROTECTED] was specifically arguing that the evidence for the Qu'ran being the genuine word of Mohamed was good. That is an empirical argument and I can accept it. But this misses the point because the more interesting question is whether the Qu'ran is the word of God. [EMAIL PROTECTED] has been proposing allegedly rational/empirical arguments in support of this latter claim, but they are not nearly up to the standard of the evidence that the Qu'ran was, indeed, written by the historical figure Mohamed. Had [EMAIL PROTECTED] said, this is what I believe to be the truth, so there, there is no gain in pointing out logical or empirical inconsistencies, although there may still be a point in examining the nature of faith, and how to decide which of the multitude of conflicting faiths is true (sometimes religious people are perfectly rational and scientific about every religion except their own, which strikes me as cheating). We are the (negligible) minority. They have less doubts than us. Most of what is commonly called the western world today, with the notable exception of the US, is agnostic, atheistic or just plain uninterested in religion. So I thank [EMAIL PROTECTED] (whoever he or she may be) for the valuable intofmation about the Muslim culture and take it as that. No doubt about it, he or she put a lot of work into the posts and even writes reasonably well. We will never get a jihadic self-sacrificer to accept that his expectation of the huris waitnig for pleasuring him 'over there' is unfounded. It is for him and who cares (in my view) for 'happenings' of our present (human) copmplexity after it dissolved (call it death) into disintegration? You don't think we should even try to talk to them? Admitedly, they are far more likely to listen to economic or political arguments than philosophical ones. A year ago or so Wei Dai put an end to religious discussions on the list. Did he? I suppose we are straying from the list subject somewhat, but overall the quality and relevance of the debate has remained very high over the years, more so than some moderated lists. That was in the Judeochristian domain. He was right on the button. Is the Judeochrismuslim argumental domain different? Such discussions cannot be resolved into any agreement of the 2 poles. Anybody arguing - MY - point? What you've consistently said is that people may come from completely different backgrounds and viewpoints and this does not mean we should discount the non-standard viewpoint. However, at the very least, if someone comes along and claims that they are following the standard rules of a game, such as science, they can't complain if they are judged according to those rules. John Mikes On 2/26/07, Stathis Papaioannou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But how do you know that the Qu'ran is actually the word of God? People claim all sorts of things, and while it's often easy to prove that they *claimed* these things (although as you rightly point out, with many religions, such as Christianity, even this is not a given), the point is to prove that these things are *true*. The more incredible-sounding, the more proof is needed. If I tell you I had a conversation with my mother last night you would probably have no reason to demand proof, but if I tell you I had a conversation with God or aliens or Elvis Presley, then you'd be foolish to just accept it, even if it can be shown that I genuinely believe what I am claiming. Stathis Papaioannou On 2/27/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Skip text --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny
John Mikes wrote: Stathis: You, of all people, should realize that one belief system cannot reach over to another one. Logic - mindset is different, facts come in different shades, evidence is adjusted to the 'system', a belief system is a whole world. Brent makes the same mistake: to argue from his 'scientific' (is it really - in the conventional old sense???) mindset with statements of the faithful, but it is a geerally committed error - while you, a learned mind-scientist should know better. I am not on top of this myself: I fall frequently into arguing from my 'rational' worldview into the (rational for them) faith-induced mentality. We are the (negligible) minority. They have less doubts than us. So I thank [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (whoever he or she may be) for the valuable intofmation about the Muslim culture and take it as that. We will never get a jihadic self-sacrificer to accept that his expectation of the huris waitnig for pleasuring him 'over there' is unfounded. It is for him and who cares (in my view) for 'happenings' of our present (human) copmplexity after it dissolved (call it death) into disintegration? A year ago or so Wei Dai put an end to religious discussions on the list. That was in the Judeochristian domain. He was right on the button. Is the Judeochrismuslim argumental domain different? Such discussions cannot be resolved into any agreement of the 2 poles. Anybody arguing - MY - point? I guess it would be futile to discuss anything with you, since you believe each of us is hermetically sealed in their own belief system. I don't agree - but that's my error. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny
A year ago or so Wei Dai put an end to religious discussions on the list. I don't remember if I did that a year ago or not, but I certainly think the current discussion is off-topic. This mailing list is based on the premise that all possible universes exist. Unless someone can think of a connection to this idea, can we please drop this thread? I have also noticed that all of [EMAIL PROTECTED]'s posts are copy-and-pastes from online sources: http://www.islamanswers.net/destiny/recorded.htm http://www.islamanswers.net/unity/understand.htm http://sg.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070226110342AAy6SG5 http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/quran/quran_proof_preservation.htm Copying other people's writings without attribution is plagiarism, which I certainly do not approve of. And aside from that, if anyone wants to reference large amounts of online material, please post a link instead of copying the text. P.S., I find that I am not always able to keep up with all of the discussions on the list. Putting my name in a post is a good way to get my attention, and please always feel free to email me directly with any administrative issues related to the list. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute
The other thing I do is check to what extent a person's speech and writings support and affirm the four fundamental ingredients of civilisation: Compassion, democracy, ethics and scientific method. No civilisation can survive without all four of these. Talk about assertions without any evidence! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute
Klortho wrote: The other thing I do is check to what extent a person's speech and writings support and affirm the four fundamental ingredients of civilisation: Compassion, democracy, ethics and scientific method. No civilisation can survive without all four of these. Talk about assertions without any evidence! Actually there's a lot of evidence that civilization developed and survived until recently without democracy or the scientific method. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute
On Feb 25, 2:06 am, Brent Meeker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute evidences of Destiny, it may be sufficient to make some introductory remarks to demonstrate how important a place this pillar of faith has for the whole of creation. The Qur'an specifically explains that everything is predetermined, and then recorded after its coming into existence, as indicated in many verses like, Nor anything green or withered except it is all in a Manifest Book. I guess the Koran's author hadn't heard about quantum randomness. Anyway that's not an explanation, it's just an assertion - and why should anyone credit assertions written without supporting evidence by a man who didn't even know that the Earth orbits the Sun. This Quranic statement is confirmed by the universe, It's not only not confirmed, it would be impossible to confirm even if it were true. Brent Meeker There are hundreds of religions flourishing around the world: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Bahaism, Babism, Zoroastrianism, Mormonism, Jehovas Witnesses, Jainism, Confucianism etc. And each of these religions claim that their scripture is preserved from the day it was revealed (written) until our time. A religious belief is as authentic as the authenticity of the scripture it follows. And for any scripture to be labeled as authentically preserved it should follow some concrete and rational criteria. Imagine this scenario: A professor gives a three hour lecture to his students. Imagine still that none of the students memorized this speech of the professor or wrote it down. Now forty years after that speech, if these same students decided to replicate professor's complete speech word for word, would they be able to do it? Obviously not. Because the only two modes of preservation historically is through writing and memory. Therefore, for any claimants to proclaim that their scripture is preserved in purity, they have to provide concrete evidence that the Scripture was written in its entirety AND memorized in its entirety from the time it was revealed to our time, in a continuous and unbroken chain. If the memorization part doesn't exist parallel to the written part to act as a check and balance for it, then there is a genuine possibility that the written scripture may loose its purity through unintentional and intentional interpolations due to scribal errors, corruption by the enemies, pages getting decomposed etc, and these errors would be concurrently incorporated into subsequent texts, ultimately loosing its purity through ages. Now, of all the religions mentioned above, does any one of them possess their scriptures in its entirety BOTH in writing AND in memory from the day of its revelation until our time. None of them fit this required criteria, except one: This unique scripture is the Qur'an - revelation bestowed to Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) 1,418 years ago, as a guidance for all of humankind. Lets analyze the claim of the preservation of the Quran... Memorization 'In the ancient times, when writing was scarcely used, memory and oral transmission was exercised and strengthened to a degree now almost unknown' relates Michael Zwettler.(1) Prophet Muhammad (S): The First Memorizer It was in this 'oral' society that Prophet Muhammad (S) was born in Mecca in the year 570 C.E. At the age of 40, he started receiving divine Revelations from the One God, Allah, through Archangel Gabriel. This process of divine revelations continued for about 22.5 years just before he passed away. Prophet Muhammad (S) miraculously memorized each revelation and used to proclaim it to his Companions. Angel Gabriel used to refresh the Quranic memory of the Prophet each year. 'The Prophet (S) was the most generous person, and he used to become more so (generous) particularly in the month of Ramadan because Gabriel used to meet him every night of the month of Ramadan till it elapsed. Allah's Messenger (S) use to recite the Qur'an for him. When Gabriel met him, he use to become more generous than the fast wind in doing good'. (2) 'Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur'an with the Prophet (S) once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he (Prophet) died'. (3) The Prophet himself use to stay up a greater part of the night in prayers and use to recite Quran from memory. Prophet's Companions: The First Generation Memorizers Prophet Muhammad (S) encouraged his companions to learn and teach the Quran: 'The most superior among you (Muslims) are those who learn the Qur'an and teach it'. (4) 'Some of the companions who memorized the Quran were: 'Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Ibn Masud
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute
How can we argue for God's existence and unity in a way everyone can understand? In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. So God sets forth parables for men in order that they may bear (them) in mind and take lessons (through them). (14:25) Such parables do we set forth for men so that they may reflect.(59:21) The existence of God is too evident to need any arguments The existence of God is too evident to need any arguments. Some saintly scholars have even stated that God is more manifest than any other being, but that those who lack insight cannot see Him. Others have said that He is concealed from direct perception because of the intensity of His Self-manifestation. However, the great influence of positivist and materialist schools of thought on science and on all people of recent centuries makes it necessary to discuss such arguments. As this now-prevalent scientific worldview reduces existence to what can be perceived directly, it blinds itself to those invisible dimensions of existence that far vaster than the visible. To remove the resulting veil, we will review briefly several traditional demonstrations of God's necessary existence. Before doing so, let us reflect on one simple historical fact: Since the beginning of human life, the overwhelming majority of humanity has believed that God exists. This belief alone is enough to establish God's existence. Those who do not believe cannot claim to be smarter than those who do. Among past and present-day believers are innovative scientists, scholars, researchers and, most importantly, saints and Prophets, who are the experts in the field. In addition, people usually confuse the non-acceptance of something's existence with the acceptance of its non-existence. While the former is only a negation or a rejection, the latter is a judgment that requires proof. No one has ever proven God's non-existence, for to do so is impossible, whereas countless arguments prove His existence. This point may be clarified through the following comparison. Suppose there is a large palace with 1,000 entrances, 999 of which are open and one which appears to be closed. No one could reasonably claim that the palace cannot be entered. Unbelievers are like those who, in order to assert that the palace cannot be entered, confine their (and others') attention only to the door that is seemingly closed. The doors to God's existence are open to everybody, provided that they sincerely intend to enter through them. Some of those doors-the demonstrations for God's existence-are as follows by way of a parable: A parable to understand God's Existence and Unity Once two men washed themselves in a pool. Then, under some extraordinary influence they fell into a trance-like state and when they opened their eyes, they found themselves in a strange land. It was a land in perfect orderliness and harmony-as it might be a well- ordered state, or a single city, or even a palace. They looked around in utmost amazement: from one point of view, it was a vast world; from another, a well-ordered state; from yet another, a splendid city. If it was looked at from still another point of view, it was a palace though one that was in itself a magnificent world. They traveled around this strange world and saw that there were creatures of diverse sorts speaking a language they did not know. However, as could be gathered from their gestures, they were doing important work, carrying out significant duties. One of the two men said to his friend: This strange world must have someone to administer it; this well- ordered state must have a lord, and this splendid city, an owner, and this skillfully made palace, a master builder. We must try to know him, for it is understood that the one who brought us here is he. If we do not know him, who else will help us here? What can we expect from those impotent creatures whose language we do not know and who do not heed us? Moreover, certainly one who has made a huge world in the form of a state, or a city, or a palace, and filled it from top to bottom with wonderful things, and embellished it with every sort of adornment, and decorated it with instructive miracles, wants something from us and from whoever comes here. We must know him, and find out what he wants. The other man objected: I do not believe that there is such a one as you speak of, and that he governs this whole world alone by himself. His friend responded to him: If we do not recognize him and remain indifferent towards him, there is no advantage in it at all, but it may be very harmful, whereas if we try to recognize him, there is little hardship in it, but it may be very beneficial. Therefore, it is in no way sensible to remain indifferent towards him. The other man insisted: I find all my ease and enjoyment in not thinking of him. Besides, I am not to bother myself with things like this which do not concern me. These are all confused things happening by chance or by themselves. They are
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jesus said: I and the Father are one (Jn.10:30), therefore, is not Jesus the same, or, co-equal in status with his Father? Answer No.1 In Greek, `heis' means `one' numerically (masc.) `hen' means `one' in unity or essence (neut.) Here the word used by John is `hen' and not `heis'. The marginal notes in New American Standard Bible (NASB) reads; one - (Lit.neuter) a unity, or, one essence. If one wishes to argue that the word `hen' supports their claim for Jesus being co-equal in status with his Father, please invite his/ her attention to the following verse: Jesus said: And the glory which Thou hast given me, I have given to them (disciples); that they may be one, just as we are one. (John 17:22). If he/she was to consider/regard/believe the Father and Jesus Christ to be one meaning co-equal in status on the basis of John 10:30, then that person should also be prepared to consider/regard/believe them - the disciples of Jesus, to be co-equal in status with the Father and Jesus (just as we are one) in John 17:22. I have yet to find a person that would be prepared to make the disciples (students) co-equal in status with the Father or Jesus. I'd say that they were better than co-equal; since they actually existed. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute
But how do you know that the Qu'ran is actually the word of God? People claim all sorts of things, and while it's often easy to prove that they *claimed* these things (although as you rightly point out, with many religions, such as Christianity, even this is not a given), the point is to prove that these things are *true*. The more incredible-sounding, the more proof is needed. If I tell you I had a conversation with my mother last night you would probably have no reason to demand proof, but if I tell you I had a conversation with God or aliens or Elvis Presley, then you'd be foolish to just accept it, even if it can be shown that I genuinely believe what I am claiming. Stathis Papaioannou On 2/27/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 25, 2:06 am, Brent Meeker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute evidences of Destiny, it may be sufficient to make some introductory remarks to demonstrate how important a place this pillar of faith has for the whole of creation. The Qur'an specifically explains that everything is predetermined, and then recorded after its coming into existence, as indicated in many verses like, Nor anything green or withered except it is all in a Manifest Book. I guess the Koran's author hadn't heard about quantum randomness. Anyway that's not an explanation, it's just an assertion - and why should anyone credit assertions written without supporting evidence by a man who didn't even know that the Earth orbits the Sun. This Quranic statement is confirmed by the universe, It's not only not confirmed, it would be impossible to confirm even if it were true. Brent Meeker There are hundreds of religions flourishing around the world: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Bahaism, Babism, Zoroastrianism, Mormonism, Jehovas Witnesses, Jainism, Confucianism etc. And each of these religions claim that their scripture is preserved from the day it was revealed (written) until our time. A religious belief is as authentic as the authenticity of the scripture it follows. And for any scripture to be labeled as authentically preserved it should follow some concrete and rational criteria. Imagine this scenario: A professor gives a three hour lecture to his students. Imagine still that none of the students memorized this speech of the professor or wrote it down. Now forty years after that speech, if these same students decided to replicate professor's complete speech word for word, would they be able to do it? Obviously not. Because the only two modes of preservation historically is through writing and memory. Therefore, for any claimants to proclaim that their scripture is preserved in purity, they have to provide concrete evidence that the Scripture was written in its entirety AND memorized in its entirety from the time it was revealed to our time, in a continuous and unbroken chain. If the memorization part doesn't exist parallel to the written part to act as a check and balance for it, then there is a genuine possibility that the written scripture may loose its purity through unintentional and intentional interpolations due to scribal errors, corruption by the enemies, pages getting decomposed etc, and these errors would be concurrently incorporated into subsequent texts, ultimately loosing its purity through ages. Now, of all the religions mentioned above, does any one of them possess their scriptures in its entirety BOTH in writing AND in memory from the day of its revelation until our time. None of them fit this required criteria, except one: This unique scripture is the Qur'an - revelation bestowed to Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) 1,418 years ago, as a guidance for all of humankind. Lets analyze the claim of the preservation of the Quran... Memorization 'In the ancient times, when writing was scarcely used, memory and oral transmission was exercised and strengthened to a degree now almost unknown' relates Michael Zwettler.(1) Prophet Muhammad (S): The First Memorizer It was in this 'oral' society that Prophet Muhammad (S) was born in Mecca in the year 570 C.E. At the age of 40, he started receiving divine Revelations from the One God, Allah, through Archangel Gabriel. This process of divine revelations continued for about 22.5 years just before he passed away. Prophet Muhammad (S) miraculously memorized each revelation and used to proclaim it to his Companions. Angel Gabriel used to refresh the Quranic memory of the Prophet each year. 'The Prophet (S) was the most generous person, and he used to become more so (generous) particularly in the month
Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute evi
Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute evidences of Destiny, it may be sufficient to make some introductory remarks to demonstrate how important a place this pillar of faith has for the whole of creation. The Qur'an specifically explains that everything is predetermined, and then recorded after its coming into existence, as indicated in many verses like, Nor anything green or withered except it is all in a Manifest Book. This Quranic statement is confirmed by the universe, this macro-Qur'an of the Divine Power, through its creational and operational signs like order, harmony, balance, forming and shaping, adornment and distinguishing. All seeds, fruit stones, measured proportions and forms demonstrate that everything is pre-determined before its earthly existence. Each seed or fruit stone has a protective case formed in the factory of Kaf Nun[*], into which the Divine Destiny has in-built the life-story of a tree or plant. The Divine Power employs the particles according to the measure established by Divine Destiny so as to cause the particular stone to grow miraculously into the particular tree. This means that the future life-history of that tree is as though written in its seed. While there is variety between individuals and between species, the basic materials from which these plants and animals are formed are identical. The plants and animals that grow from the same constituent basic elements display, amid abundant diversity, such harmony and proportion that man cannot help but conclude that each of them has been individually given its particular form and measure. It is the Divine Power which gives to each its particular form according to the measure established for it by Divine Destiny. For example, consider how vast and innumerable a mass of inanimate particles shift, cohere, separate so that this seed grows into this tree or that drop of semen grows into that animal. Since there are the manifestations of Divine Destiny to this extent in visible material things, for certain, the forms with which things are clothed with the passing of time and the states they acquire through their motions are also dependent on the ordering of Divine Destiny. Indeed, a single seed displays Destiny in two ways, one by demonstrating the Manifest Book (Kitabun Mubin) which is but another title for Divine Will and God's creational and operational laws of the universe; the other is by displaying the Manifest Record (Imamun Mubin), another title for Divine Knowledge and Command. If we regard these two as different manifestations of Divine Destiny, the former can be understood and referred to as 'Destiny Actual' and the latter as 'Destiny For-mal or Theoretical'. The future full-grown form of the tree can be understood as its Destiny Actual, whilst Destiny Formal refers to all the stages together through which the tree has to pass in its life, and comprehends the entire history of its life. Such manifestations of the Divine Destiny, so easily observed in a life such as that of a tree, are illustrative of how everything has been pre-determined in a Record before its worldly existence. On the other hand, all the fruits and seeds which are signs of the Manifest Book (Kitabun Mubin) and the Manifest Record (Imamun Mubin), together with all human memories which indicate the Preserved Tablet (Lawhun Mahfuz), prove that, as everything has been pre-recorded, its life- history is also recorded. The life-history of every tree, for example, is recorded in each of its fruits, which is the outcome of its entire life. The life-history of man including events occurring in the external world is likewise recorded in his memory. Thus, the Divine Power registers a man's deeds with the Pen of Destiny by lodging it in his memory so that he will be able to remember them on the Day of Reckoning. Man should also be assured that in this world of transience and upheavals there are numerous 'mirrors' pertaining to eternity in which the All-Powerful and Wise One depicts and makes permanent the identities of mortals. There are also many tablets upon which the All- Knowing Preserver writes down the meanings of transient beings. In short: While plants, which are the simplest and lowest level of life, are completely de-pendent upon Divine Destiny, it is also evident that the life of man, which is the highest level, has also been minutely determined by that Destiny. Just as drops of rain are indicative of a cloud, and trickles of water disclose a spring, and receipts and vouchers suggest the existence of a ledger, so fruits, sperms, seeds, and forms are indicators of the Manifest Book and the Manifest Record. The expression Manifest Book symbolizes the Destiny Actual, which is a title for Divine Will and God's creational and operational laws of the universe and the physical order displayed
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute evidences of Destiny, it may be sufficient to make some introductory remarks to demonstrate how important a place this pillar of faith has for the whole of creation. The Qur'an specifically explains that everything is predetermined, and then recorded after its coming into existence, as indicated in many verses like, Nor anything green or withered except it is all in a Manifest Book. I guess the Koran's author hadn't heard about quantum randomness. Anyway that's not an explanation, it's just an assertion - and why should anyone credit assertions written without supporting evidence by a man who didn't even know that the Earth orbits the Sun. This Quranic statement is confirmed by the universe, It's not only not confirmed, it would be impossible to confirm even if it were true. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute
On 2/25/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute evidences of Destiny, it may be sufficient to make some introductory remarks to demonstrate how important a place this pillar of faith has for the whole of creation. The Qur'an specifically explains that everything is predetermined... If God decided to lay off the pressure on you to fulfil your destiny, so that you could do whatever you wanted, but you didn't know that he had done this and believed firmly that you were still guided by divine destiny, how would your behaviour be different? Stathis Papaioannou --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
