Re: Penrose - Is Mathematics Invented or Discovered?

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 17 Oct 2020, at 00:21, Alan Grayson  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 12:58:43 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote:
> 
> 
> " Is Mathematics Invented or Discovered?" is the same as " Is Programming 
> Invented or Discovered?"
> 
> 
> Arche-programming
> https://codicalist.wordpress.com/2019/08/22/arche-programming/ 
> 
> 
> 
> @philipthrift
> 
> What about the incandescent bulb; invented or discovered. Not a rhetorical 
> question. AG

Both can be said. The principle of its functioning can be said to be 
discovered, like electricity itself, but the concerte bulbs are fabricated and 
as such they are invented.

Now, the sad truth is that the incandescent bulb has mainly be abandoned, alas…

Bruno



>  
> 
> On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 9:22:28 AM UTC-5 Lawrence Crowell wrote:
> This is something we will probably never know for sure.
> 
> LC
> 
> On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 11:20:27 PM UTC-5 agrays...@gmail.com <> 
> wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujvS2K06dg4 
> 
> 
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Re: Penrose - Is Mathematics Invented or Discovered?

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 15 Oct 2020, at 06:20, Alan Grayson  wrote:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujvS2K06dg4


Not much time to look at the video, but from his book, despite its notorious 
misunderstanding of Gödel’s incompleteness theorem, Penrose seems quite 
reasonable on mathematical realism. I met Penrose in Croatia some years ago, 
but he did not progress much on logic.

In science, we can never know if a theory is true or not, and the same is true 
for any domain studied with the scientific method, including 
metaphysics/theology, which dig on that very (ontological) question.

Now, in the Mechanist theory of mind, we can explain how and why the appearance 
of a physical universe is obtained, without postulating the existence of a 
physical universe. That physical universe is entirely determined, and so it can 
be compared to the observation, and the fact is that, from a Mechanist point of 
view, there are simply no evidence that a physical universe exists 
ontologically (no one doubt that it exists phenomenologically).

So, we don’t know the truth, but we can count the evidence, and there are far 
more evidence for 1+1 = 2 than for an ontological status for any physical 
objects. Adding a physical universe in the ontology reintroduce the mind-body 
problem, and can make sense only in a highly non computational theory, for 
which there is no evidence.

Physics is just not the fundamental science, once we accept Descartes/Darwin. 
We cannot have both Mechanism and Materialism, that leads to a contradiction. 
And the evidence, be it Darwin or quantum mechanics, sides strongly in favour 
for Mechanism, and thus against Materialism or naturalism.

Materialism will be abandoned in metaphysics/theology like vitalism has been 
abandoned in biology, that is, as a superstition which please the mind, but 
only add difficulties and prevent the pursue of the questioning and research. 
It is “fake religion”.

Bruno


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Re: Penrose - Is Mathematics Invented or Discovered?

[Alan Grayson]

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 12:58:43 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote:
>
>
>
> " Is Mathematics Invented or Discovered?" is the same as " Is Programming 
> Invented or Discovered?"
>
>
> Arche-programming
> https://codicalist.wordpress.com/2019/08/22/arche-programming/ 
> 
>
>
> @philipthrift
>

*What about the incandescent bulb; invented or discovered. Not a rhetorical 
question. AG*
 

>
> On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 9:22:28 AM UTC-5 Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
>> This is something we will probably never know for sure.
>>
>> LC
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 11:20:27 PM UTC-5 agrays...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujvS2K06dg4
>>>
>>

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Re: Penrose - Is Mathematics Invented or Discovered?

[Philip Thrift]

" Is Mathematics Invented or Discovered?" is the same as " Is Programming 
Invented or Discovered?"


Arche-programming
https://codicalist.wordpress.com/2019/08/22/arche-programming/


@philipthrift

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 9:22:28 AM UTC-5 Lawrence Crowell wrote:

> This is something we will probably never know for sure.
>
> LC
>
> On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 11:20:27 PM UTC-5 agrays...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujvS2K06dg4
>>
>

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Re: Penrose - Is Mathematics Invented or Discovered?

[Lawrence Crowell]

This is something we will probably never know for sure.

LC

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 11:20:27 PM UTC-5 agrays...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujvS2K06dg4
>

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Penrose - Is Mathematics Invented or Discovered?

[Alan Grayson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujvS2K06dg4

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