subject:"RE\: Does time flow\?"

Re: Does time flow?

2020-04-13 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

I guess it boils down to the question: is information purely abstract and
dimensionless or not. If the encoding of information is not purely abstract
then how did the universe at the very moment of creation, when all spacetime
was contained within an (almost) infinitely tiny dot, already contain all the
information that it now contains some 13.8 billion years after the big bang?
Assuming, for the sake of argument that new information, which did not exist
before is created with the passage of time how can that be recociled with the
block universe hypothesis?
I am not convinced either way, and don't have a dog in this game, but this
strikes me as an interesting question to ask.
-Chris

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 5:05 AM, Lawrence
Crowell wrote: I thought we already
discussed this. The question I have about this is whether numbers involved with
measurements are categorically equivalent to physical reality. These numbers
are something which occurs in a calibrated measurement. Gisin appears to be
making an equivalency between numbers and physical reality, This is where I
find open questions on the relevancy of this work.
LC
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 9:43:45 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote:
Read a thought provoking hypothesis proposed by Swiss physicist Nicolas Gisin
in four papers he authored that questions the widely accepted block universe
model of Relativity on a mathematical basis, centered on the proposition that
infinitely precise real numbers do not exist in nature.
Mathematics assumes the existence of infinitely precise real numbers as a
given; Nicolas Gisin questions that assumption. Instead Grisin argues that a
hundred year old branch of mathematics called Intuitionust Mathematics that
rejects the existence of numbers with infinite digitsvof precision is used to
describe the evolution of physical systems, it becomes clear that time really
passes and that new information is being created.
The block universe model of spacetime argues for a static -- pre-ordained --
universe in which past, present and future are illusions and all that is always
has been.
Modern information theory however shows that information is physical, it
requires both energy and space. He questions how a block universe hypothesis
could contain -- essentially infinite -- all the information encoded in the
block universe in the initial state at the moment of the big bang.
Intuitionist mathematics accepts the reality of irrational values such as say
pi that have an infinite series of digits of precision because a formula exists
that can in theory calculate its value to any degree of precision.
But say we have an arbitrary value x that is initially measured to some point
of precision of x=0.4 (the example given) and that this value unfurls to
greater and greater degrees of precision. Perhaps the series of 9s continues
forever and thus x is exactly equal to 1/2, but if at any point a digit of
lower value is encountered this quantity will forever be less than 1/2. Before
that happens we cannot know what x is equal to, our knowledge depends on this
unfolding sequence.
"But before that happens, when all we know is 0.4999, “we don’t know whether or
not a digit other than 9 will ever show up,” explained Carl Posy, a philosopher
of mathematics at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and a leading expert on
intuitionist math. “At the time we consider this x, we cannot say that x is
less than ½, nor can we say that x equals ½.” The proposition “x is equal to ½”
is not true, and neither is its negation. The law of the excluded middle
doesn’t hold."
"In other words, the world is indeterministic; the future is open. Time, Gisin
said, “is not unfolding like a movie in the cinema. It is really a creative
unfolding. The new digits really get created as time passes.”"
Here is the link to the article, for those interested: https://www.
quantamagazine.org/does-time- really-flow-new-clues-come-
from-a-century-old-approach- to-math-20200407/

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Re: Does time flow?

2020-04-13 Thread Lawrence Crowell

I thought we already discussed this. The question I have about this is 
whether numbers involved with measurements are categorically equivalent to 
physical reality. These numbers are something which occurs in a calibrated 
measurement. Gisin appears to be making an equivalency between numbers and 
physical reality, This is where I find open questions on the relevancy of 
this work.

LC

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 9:43:45 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote:
>
> Read a thought provoking hypothesis proposed by Swiss physicist Nicolas 
> Gisin in four papers he authored that questions the widely accepted block 
> universe model of Relativity on a mathematical basis, centered on the 
> proposition that infinitely precise real numbers do not exist in nature. 
>
> Mathematics assumes the existence of infinitely precise real numbers as a 
> given; Nicolas Gisin questions that assumption. Instead Grisin argues that 
> a hundred year old branch of mathematics called Intuitionust Mathematics 
> that rejects the existence of numbers with infinite digitsvof precision is 
> used to describe the evolution of physical systems, it becomes clear that 
> time really passes and that new information is being created.
>
> The block universe model of spacetime argues for a static -- pre-ordained 
> -- universe in which past, present and future are illusions and all that is 
> always has been.
>
> Modern information theory however shows that information is physical, it 
> requires both energy and space. He questions how a block universe 
> hypothesis could contain -- essentially infinite -- all the information 
> encoded in the block universe in the initial state at the moment of the big 
> bang. 
>
> Intuitionist mathematics accepts the reality of irrational values such as 
> say pi that have an infinite series of digits of precision because a 
> formula exists that can in theory calculate its value to any degree of 
> precision.
>
> But say we have an arbitrary value x that is initially measured to some 
> point of precision of x=0.4 (the example given) and that this value 
> unfurls to greater and greater degrees of precision. Perhaps the series of 
> 9s continues forever and thus x is exactly equal to 1/2, but if at any 
> point a digit of lower value is encountered this quantity will forever be 
> less than 1/2.  Before that happens we cannot know what x is equal to, our 
> knowledge depends on this unfolding sequence.
>
> "But before that happens, when all we know is 0.4999, “we don’t know 
> whether or not a digit other than 9 will ever show up,” explained Carl 
> Posy , a philosopher 
> of mathematics at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and a leading expert 
> on intuitionist math. “At the time we consider this *x*, we cannot say 
> that *x* is less than ½, nor can we say that *x* equals ½.” The 
> proposition “*x* is equal to ½” is not true, and neither is its negation. 
> The law of the excluded middle doesn’t hold."
>
> "In other words, the world is indeterministic; the future is open. Time, 
> Gisin said, “is not unfolding like a movie in the cinema. It is really a 
> creative unfolding. The new digits really get created as time passes.”"
>
> Here is the link to the article, for those interested: 
> https://www.quantamagazine.org/does-time-really-flow-new-clues-come-from-a-century-old-approach-to-math-20200407/
>

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Re: Does time flow?

2020-04-13 Thread Russell Standish

Thanks for this. I've downloaded this, and will get to it soon. It
sounds like an interesting approach.

On Thu, Apr 09, 2020 at 02:43:41AM +, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything 
List wrote:
> Read a thought provoking hypothesis proposed by Swiss physicist Nicolas Gisin
> in four papers he authored that questions the widely accepted block universe
> model of Relativity on a mathematical basis, centered on the proposition that
> infinitely precise real numbers do not exist in nature. 
> 
> Mathematics assumes the existence of infinitely precise real numbers as a
> given; Nicolas Gisin questions that assumption. Instead Grisin argues that a
> hundred year old branch of mathematics called Intuitionust Mathematics that
> rejects the existence of numbers with infinite digitsvof precision is used to
> describe the evolution of physical systems, it becomes clear that time really
> passes and that new information is being created.
> 
> The block universe model of spacetime argues for a static -- pre-ordained --
> universe in which past, present and future are illusions and all that is 
> always
> has been.
> 
> Modern information theory however shows that information is physical, it
> requires both energy and space. He questions how a block universe hypothesis
> could contain -- essentially infinite -- all the information encoded in the
> block universe in the initial state at the moment of the big bang. 
> 
> Intuitionist mathematics accepts the reality of irrational values such as say
> pi that have an infinite series of digits of precision because a formula 
> exists
> that can in theory calculate its value to any degree of precision.
> 
> But say we have an arbitrary value x that is initially measured to some point
> of precision of x=0.4 (the example given) and that this value unfurls to
> greater and greater degrees of precision. Perhaps the series of 9s continues
> forever and thus x is exactly equal to 1/2, but if at any point a digit of
> lower value is encountered this quantity will forever be less than 1/2.  
> Before
> that happens we cannot know what x is equal to, our knowledge depends on this
> unfolding sequence.
> 
> "But before that happens, when all we know is 0.4999, “we don’t know whether 
> or
> not a digit other than 9 will ever show up,” explained Carl Posy, a 
> philosopher
> of mathematics at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and a leading expert on
> intuitionist math. “At the time we consider this x, we cannot say that x is
> less than ½, nor can we say that x equals ½.” The proposition “x is equal to 
> ½”
> is not true, and neither is its negation. The law of the excluded middle
> doesn’t hold."
> 
> "In other words, the world is indeterministic; the future is open. Time, Gisin
> said, “is not unfolding like a movie in the cinema. It is really a creative
> unfolding. The new digits really get created as time passes.”"
> 
> Here is the link to the article, for those interested: https://
> www.quantamagazine.org/
> does-time-really-flow-new-clues-come-from-a-century-old-approach-to-math-20200407
> /
> 
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> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/
> everything-list/1883724681.2957102.1586400221647%40mail.yahoo.com.

-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
  http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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RE: Does time flow?

2020-04-08 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Read a thought provoking hypothesis proposed by Swiss physicist Nicolas Gisin 
in four papers he authored that questions the widely accepted block universe 
model of Relativity on a mathematical basis, centered on the proposition that 
infinitely precise real numbers do not exist in nature. 
Mathematics assumes the existence of infinitely precise real numbers as a 
given; Nicolas Gisin questions that assumption. Instead Grisin argues that a 
hundred year old branch of mathematics called Intuitionust Mathematics that 
rejects the existence of numbers with infinite digitsvof precision is used to 
describe the evolution of physical systems, it becomes clear that time really 
passes and that new information is being created.
The block universe model of spacetime argues for a static -- pre-ordained -- 
universe in which past, present and future are illusions and all that is always 
has been.
Modern information theory however shows that information is physical, it 
requires both energy and space. He questions how a block universe hypothesis 
could contain -- essentially infinite -- all the information encoded in the 
block universe in the initial state at the moment of the big bang. 
Intuitionist mathematics accepts the reality of irrational values such as say 
pi that have an infinite series of digits of precision because a formula exists 
that can in theory calculate its value to any degree of precision.
But say we have an arbitrary value x that is initially measured to some point 
of precision of x=0.4 (the example given) and that this value unfurls to 
greater and greater degrees of precision. Perhaps the series of 9s continues 
forever and thus x is exactly equal to 1/2, but if at any point a digit of 
lower value is encountered this quantity will forever be less than 1/2.  Before 
that happens we cannot know what x is equal to, our knowledge depends on this 
unfolding sequence.
"But before that happens, when all we know is 0.4999, “we don’t know whether or 
not a digit other than 9 will ever show up,” explained Carl Posy, a philosopher 
of mathematics at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and a leading expert on 
intuitionist math. “At the time we consider this x, we cannot say that x is 
less than ½, nor can we say that x equals ½.” The proposition “x is equal to ½” 
is not true, and neither is its negation. The law of the excluded middle 
doesn’t hold."
"In other words, the world is indeterministic; the future is open. Time, Gisin 
said, “is not unfolding like a movie in the cinema. It is really a creative 
unfolding. The new digits really get created as time passes.”"
Here is the link to the article, for those interested: 
https://www.quantamagazine.org/does-time-really-flow-new-clues-come-from-a-century-old-approach-to-math-20200407/

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Re: Does time flow?

Re: Does time flow?

Re: Does time flow?

RE: Does time flow?

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