Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
Hi John, Actually, I think you fell into a trap specifying the EM spectrum (which is well characterised, and has no "unknowns" about it), rather than something vague like "energy" or "radiation". It is entirely possible that life has evolved a way of making use of some unknown source of radiant energy - unlikely, but possible. What is not possible is that life has evolved a way of making use of unknown electromagnetic energy, because there's no such thing. Hope that helps :). Cheers On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 04:36:18PM -0400, John Mikes wrote: > Thanks, Russell, you still teach physics. > > I fell into bad styling when wanted to refer to phenomena BEYOND it, just > as there was EM before it was detected, there was electricity and gravity > before the words were invented and so on. What may be in the future is not > anticipateable if we have no lead to them within our existing inventory. > > Your words > > > > > *"...Different instruments are used fordifferent bands, but they all > overlap and are cailbrated against eachother. I understand that the gamma > ray spectrum is unbounded, sinceany photon with sufficient energy to knock > an electron out of an atom..."* > > are still physics 101 - what I accept - but my agnosticism goes further in > the expectation of novelties. > I may go into 'pseudoscience' - or even 'antiscience' but keep an open mind > for the so far unimaginable. I resist to statements like "NOTHING ELSE". > Please forgive... > > John Mikes > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 7:58 PM, Russell Standish > wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 04:31:00PM -0400, John Mikes wrote: > > > Russell: > > > you wrote: > > > > > > > > > *Not really - the peak of the solar spectrum is yellow light. The IR and > > UV* > > > *portions are relatively small components, and what little there is is > > > further absorbed by water vapour and the ozone layer respectively.* > > > > > > Is ALL you do mean the SOLAR (!) spectrum we can detect with our > > > instruments? > > > Are you sure there is nothing else? Liz mentioned EM spectrum *total*. > > What > > > is included in it beyond the above (as part of our unknowables)? > > > John M > > > > > > > Nothing. We can measure everything in the EM spectrum from sub 1Hz up > > to high energy gamma rays. Different instruments are used for > > different bands, but they all overlap and are cailbrated against each > > other. I understand that the gamma ray spectrum is unbounded, since > > any photon with sufficient energy to knock an electron out of an atom > > (ionising radiation) will be detected by a photomultiplier, regardless > > of whether it is the photoelectric effect, the Comptom effect or pair > > production that is involved. The sub 1Hz spectrum really is > > unimportant, as there is no useful energy in a photon whose wavelength > > is bigger than the Earth. > > > > We also have a well established theory called "blackbody radiation" > > that gives a distribution of photon energies being emitted from a body > > at a given temperature. The sun's distribution fits that perfectly, so > > we have sound theoretical reasons why it is not emitting anything > > appreciable outside that spectrum. > > > > Obviously, the name "blackbody radiator" is a misnomer, as it needn't > > be black, as in the Sun's case. Another example of a blackbody > > radiator is the incandescent lightglobe (when turned on!). > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > > Principal, High Performance Coders > > Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au > > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > > > Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret > > (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Everything List" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 2
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
Thanks, Russell, you still teach physics. I fell into bad styling when wanted to refer to phenomena BEYOND it, just as there was EM before it was detected, there was electricity and gravity before the words were invented and so on. What may be in the future is not anticipateable if we have no lead to them within our existing inventory. Your words *"...Different instruments are used fordifferent bands, but they all overlap and are cailbrated against eachother. I understand that the gamma ray spectrum is unbounded, sinceany photon with sufficient energy to knock an electron out of an atom..."* are still physics 101 - what I accept - but my agnosticism goes further in the expectation of novelties. I may go into 'pseudoscience' - or even 'antiscience' but keep an open mind for the so far unimaginable. I resist to statements like "NOTHING ELSE". Please forgive... John Mikes On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 7:58 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 04:31:00PM -0400, John Mikes wrote: > > Russell: > > you wrote: > > > > > > *Not really - the peak of the solar spectrum is yellow light. The IR and > UV* > > *portions are relatively small components, and what little there is is > > further absorbed by water vapour and the ozone layer respectively.* > > > > Is ALL you do mean the SOLAR (!) spectrum we can detect with our > > instruments? > > Are you sure there is nothing else? Liz mentioned EM spectrum *total*. > What > > is included in it beyond the above (as part of our unknowables)? > > John M > > > > Nothing. We can measure everything in the EM spectrum from sub 1Hz up > to high energy gamma rays. Different instruments are used for > different bands, but they all overlap and are cailbrated against each > other. I understand that the gamma ray spectrum is unbounded, since > any photon with sufficient energy to knock an electron out of an atom > (ionising radiation) will be detected by a photomultiplier, regardless > of whether it is the photoelectric effect, the Comptom effect or pair > production that is involved. The sub 1Hz spectrum really is > unimportant, as there is no useful energy in a photon whose wavelength > is bigger than the Earth. > > We also have a well established theory called "blackbody radiation" > that gives a distribution of photon energies being emitted from a body > at a given temperature. The sun's distribution fits that perfectly, so > we have sound theoretical reasons why it is not emitting anything > appreciable outside that spectrum. > > Obviously, the name "blackbody radiator" is a misnomer, as it needn't > be black, as in the Sun's case. Another example of a blackbody > radiator is the incandescent lightglobe (when turned on!). > > -- > > > > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Principal, High Performance Coders > Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret > (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 04:31:00PM -0400, John Mikes wrote: > Russell: > you wrote: > > > *Not really - the peak of the solar spectrum is yellow light. The IR and UV* > *portions are relatively small components, and what little there is is > further absorbed by water vapour and the ozone layer respectively.* > > Is ALL you do mean the SOLAR (!) spectrum we can detect with our > instruments? > Are you sure there is nothing else? Liz mentioned EM spectrum *total*. What > is included in it beyond the above (as part of our unknowables)? > John M > Nothing. We can measure everything in the EM spectrum from sub 1Hz up to high energy gamma rays. Different instruments are used for different bands, but they all overlap and are cailbrated against each other. I understand that the gamma ray spectrum is unbounded, since any photon with sufficient energy to knock an electron out of an atom (ionising radiation) will be detected by a photomultiplier, regardless of whether it is the photoelectric effect, the Comptom effect or pair production that is involved. The sub 1Hz spectrum really is unimportant, as there is no useful energy in a photon whose wavelength is bigger than the Earth. We also have a well established theory called "blackbody radiation" that gives a distribution of photon energies being emitted from a body at a given temperature. The sun's distribution fits that perfectly, so we have sound theoretical reasons why it is not emitting anything appreciable outside that spectrum. Obviously, the name "blackbody radiator" is a misnomer, as it needn't be black, as in the Sun's case. Another example of a blackbody radiator is the incandescent lightglobe (when turned on!). -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
Russell: you wrote: *Not really - the peak of the solar spectrum is yellow light. The IR and UV* *portions are relatively small components, and what little there is is further absorbed by water vapour and the ozone layer respectively.* Is ALL you do mean the SOLAR (!) spectrum we can detect with our instruments? Are you sure there is nothing else? Liz mentioned EM spectrum *total*. What is included in it beyond the above (as part of our unknowables)? John M On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 7:29 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 11:19:24PM +1200, LizR wrote: > > Is it possible that plants are actually efficient in other parts of the > > spectrum that we can't see? Maybe they utilise a lot of infra red and > > ultraviolet, and the fact that there is a missed opportunity in visible > > green is a relatively insignificant blip? > > > > After all we only see less than one light octave. There's a LOT of EM > > radiation out there we can't detect. > > > > Or am I barking up the wrong tree? :-) > > > > Not really - the peak of the solar spectrum is yellow light. The IR and UV > portions are relatively small components, and what little there is is > further > absorbed by water vapour and the ozone layer respectively. > > -- > > > > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Principal, High Performance Coders > Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret > (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:23:49AM +0200, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > That only shows how the mind invent whatever childish explanation that does > not impair the self esteem for the unknown. That sickness is specially > acute in supposedly intelligent people. Is that meant to be a Christian apologism? Or a response to my playful barb against creationism? Or something else. 'splain yerself, laddie! > El 18/06/2014 09:24, "Russell Standish" escribió: > > > On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 10:27:48PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: > > > > > > What is baffling to me is that photosynthesis in algae relies on > > > absorption in the red and blue part of the spectrum, but reflects > > > the big green part in between?? Why didn't it evolve another > > > pigment to capture that in order to live in low light conditions? > > > > > > > The idea I've heard is that the original photosynthesiser absorbed the > > green portion of the spectrum, and then the current photosynthesiser > > came along later, and made use of the remaining bits of the spectrum > > (red+blue), and ultimately outcompeted the earlier photosynthesis > > system. > > > > I gather the earlier photosynthetic system might still be around - the > > so-called purple bacteria, which use a different photosynthesis process > > producing sulfur, not oxygen. > > > > This also explain why the atmosphere was not oxygenated until ca 2Gya. > > > > But it does illustrate the way evolution can get stuck in a local > > optima. And also further evidence that any purported Creator must be > > completely incompetent. > > -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
On 20 Jun 2014, at 22:51, John Mikes wrote: They ARE black! Our eyes err. - Without joke: how about those plants that are not green? do they have a chlorophyl variation that is not green? or a different photosynth-mechsm? I think they contain chlorophyl, + other pigments, which plays some role in their exploitation of light, but don't know much about this. Bruno JM On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:15 PM, LizR wrote: I have long thought that plants should be black, too, for this reason. Anyone know why not? On 20 June 2014 11:40, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List > wrote: Perhaps because the two mechanisms function quite differently and apparently evolved independently. But I also sometimes wonder why in the many hundreds of millions of years of time that no species has found a way to utilize the missing chunk of spectrum. A perfect plant would have jet black leaves -- and use photons across all wavelengths of the spectrum. Then there truly would be black forests. Chris Bacteriorhodopsin - Boundless Open Textbook Bacteriorhodopsin - Boundless Open Textbook Bacteriorhodopsin acts a proton pump, generating cellular energy in a manner independent of chlorophyll. Read more about bacteriorhodopsin in the Bou... View on www.boundless.com Preview by Yahoo Bacteriorhodopsin acts a proton pump, generating cellular energy in a manner independent of chlorophyll. KEY POINTS Bacteriorhodopsin is a proton pump found in Archaea, it takes light energy and coverts it into chemical energy, ATP, that can be used by the cell for cellular functions. Bacteriorhodopsin forms chains, which contain retinal molecule within, it is the retinal molecule that absorbs a photon from light, it then changes the confirmation of the nearby Bacteriorhodopsin protein, allowing it to act as a proton pump. While chlorophyll based ATP generation depends on a protein gradient, like bacteriorhodopsin, but with striking differences, suggesting that phototrophy evolved in bacteria and archaea independently of each other. [snip] These [bacteriochlorophylls ] also produce a proton gradient, but in a quite different and more indirect way involving an electron transfer chain consisting of several other proteins. Furthermore, chlorophylls are aided in capturing light energy by other pigments known as "antennas"; these are not present in bacteriorhodopsin- based systems. Last, chlorophyll-based phototrophy is coupled to carbon fixation (the incorporation of carbon dioxide into larger organic molecules) and for that reason is photosynthesis, which is not true for bacteriorhodopsin-based system. From: meekerdb To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 10:51 AM Subject: Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)] On 6/18/2014 3:15 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote: >>But it does illustrate the way evolution can get stuck in a local optima. And also further evidence that any purported Creator must be completely incompetent. Evolution always must begin with a preexisting platform -- so to speak -- and builds on top of it (in an evolutionary way). Yes, I'd heard the story about the purple bacteriodopsin that used the middle part of the visible spectrum. But the implication is that these bacteria were shading the bacteria or algae that developed chlorophyll. Which might be true, but they've not been shading them for the last billion years or so since plants came onto the land. So I don't see it has a local optimum. There's a big chunk of spectrum right there adjacent to the spectrum being used. There doesn't seem to be any significant barrier. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everythin
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
That only shows how the mind invent whatever childish explanation that does not impair the self esteem for the unknown. That sickness is specially acute in supposedly intelligent people. El 18/06/2014 09:24, "Russell Standish" escribió: > On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 10:27:48PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: > > > > What is baffling to me is that photosynthesis in algae relies on > > absorption in the red and blue part of the spectrum, but reflects > > the big green part in between?? Why didn't it evolve another > > pigment to capture that in order to live in low light conditions? > > > > The idea I've heard is that the original photosynthesiser absorbed the > green portion of the spectrum, and then the current photosynthesiser > came along later, and made use of the remaining bits of the spectrum > (red+blue), and ultimately outcompeted the earlier photosynthesis > system. > > I gather the earlier photosynthetic system might still be around - the > so-called purple bacteria, which use a different photosynthesis process > producing sulfur, not oxygen. > > This also explain why the atmosphere was not oxygenated until ca 2Gya. > > But it does illustrate the way evolution can get stuck in a local > optima. And also further evidence that any purported Creator must be > completely incompetent. > > Cheers > > -- > > > > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Principal, High Performance Coders > Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret > (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
On 23 June 2014 11:29, Russell Standish wrote: > On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 11:19:24PM +1200, LizR wrote: > > Is it possible that plants are actually efficient in other parts of the > > spectrum that we can't see? Maybe they utilise a lot of infra red and > > ultraviolet, and the fact that there is a missed opportunity in visible > > green is a relatively insignificant blip? > > > > After all we only see less than one light octave. There's a LOT of EM > > radiation out there we can't detect. > > > > Or am I barking up the wrong tree? :-) > > > > Not really - the peak of the solar spectrum is yellow light. The IR and UV > portions are relatively small components, and what little there is is > further > absorbed by water vapour and the ozone layer respectively. > That doesn't surprise me. I thought there must be a good evolutionary reason why most animals, insects, reptiles etc see light in roughly the visible spectrum, with a few exceptions. So plants missing out on green IS a mystery, at least to me. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 11:19:24PM +1200, LizR wrote: > Is it possible that plants are actually efficient in other parts of the > spectrum that we can't see? Maybe they utilise a lot of infra red and > ultraviolet, and the fact that there is a missed opportunity in visible > green is a relatively insignificant blip? > > After all we only see less than one light octave. There's a LOT of EM > radiation out there we can't detect. > > Or am I barking up the wrong tree? :-) > Not really - the peak of the solar spectrum is yellow light. The IR and UV portions are relatively small components, and what little there is is further absorbed by water vapour and the ozone layer respectively. -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
Maybe a BLACK tree? how 'bout "barking" in humanly non-audible spectrum-parts of the frequencies? dogs may hear it. How 'bout if your question touches items beyond our humanly accessible/accessed inventory? Consider my appreciative reply within those parts. JM On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 7:19 AM, LizR wrote: > Is it possible that plants are actually efficient in other parts of the > spectrum that we can't see? Maybe they utilise a lot of infra red and > ultraviolet, and the fact that there is a missed opportunity in visible > green is a relatively insignificant blip? > > After all we only see less than one light octave. There's a LOT of EM > radiation out there we can't detect. > > Or am I barking up the wrong tree? :-) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
Is it possible that plants are actually efficient in other parts of the spectrum that we can't see? Maybe they utilise a lot of infra red and ultraviolet, and the fact that there is a missed opportunity in visible green is a relatively insignificant blip? After all we only see less than one light octave. There's a LOT of EM radiation out there we can't detect. Or am I barking up the wrong tree? :-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes Dear Chris, not that your answer sounds a bit vague - I have deeper problems. I can understand your point of view – though I am not quite certain what it is either. However basic terms like “black” need to be commonly understood (at least to some threshold of shared meaning) in order for a symbolic system that employs them to be effective as a means of bridging the gulf from mind to mind. Not questioning your right to be skeptical, and in fact am appreciative of the perspective you bring, but isn’t it also important for there to be broad agreement on the meaning of terms? Cheers, Chris In my lately (2+decades) absobed agnostic views I find our science a bit incomplete as explanatory ideas (with mathematical underlying) upon poorly understood (iff...?) phenomena adjusted both into the previous images AND the capabilities of our present mentality (previous meaning here: based on an inventory of old, explained as well on the basis of the THEN theories we could manage). I find the dark things (matter, energy, hole) exciting and brilliant. Not 'real'. They serve well in bringing our incomplete theories into a fit (just as the 'inflation' after the Big Bang etc.). As a former chemist (1/2c polymer pioneering) I do not believe (my own?) molecules of which I derived implemented technologies. They are maybe-s. How 'bout infinite complexities? Throw in infinite combinations of basic physical constants into the mix of the multiverse and what do you get? How much can the brain contain before triggering whiteout -- total information overload inducing sudden mental paralysis? I jest but it truly can become mind boggling. Cheers, Chris Best regards John M On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 11:37 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes Sent: Friday, June 20, 2014 1:52 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)] They ARE black! Our eyes err. - Without joke: how about those plants that are not green? do they have a chlorophyl variation that is not green? or a different photosynth-mechsm? JM Not sure I understand what you are saying – How I have understood the terms -- darkness (or black materials as well) is the absence of photons, or for a black material the absorption of incident photons. Plants reflect a large number of photons. This glaring (well reflective at least LOL) sub-optimal utilization of available spectrum does seem to indicate that this could be the result of a local evolutionary optima as Russell suggested. My – off the top of my head guess – would be that the genetics and/or the molecular machinery of chloroplasts have evolved into this corner and cannot back out of this local optimization without breaking the machinery in place that is necessary in order to sustain the organism. Even with this sub-optimal apparatus green plants have done well for themselves on earth – a life form just needs to be good enough to outcompete the alternatives and fill an environmental niche (until it meets its match or the edge boundaries of the niche in which it has a competitive advantage) Cheers, Chris On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:15 PM, LizR wrote: I have long thought that plants should be black, too, for this reason. Anyone know why not? On 20 June 2014 11:40, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote: Perhaps because the two mechanisms function quite differently and apparently evolved independently. But I also sometimes wonder why in the many hundreds of millions of years of time that no species has found a way to utilize the missing chunk of spectrum. A perfect plant would have jet black leaves -- and use photons across all wavelengths of the spectrum. Then there truly would be black forests. Chris Bacteriorhodopsin - Boundless Open Textbook <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> image <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> Bacteriorhodopsin - Boundless Open Textbook Bacteriorhodopsin acts a proton pump, generating cellular energy in a manner independent of chlorophyll. Read more about bacteriorhodopsin in the Bou... <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> View on www.boundless.com Preview by Yahoo
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
Dear Chris, not that your answer sounds a bit vague - I have deeper problems. In my lately (2+decades) absobed agnostic views I find our science a bit incomplete as explanatory ideas (with mathematical underlying) upon poorly understood (iff...?) phenomena adjusted both into the *previous* images AND the capabilities of our *present* mentality (previous meaning here: based on an inventory of old, explained as well on the basis of the THEN theories we could manage). I find the dark things (matter, energy, hole) exciting and brilliant. Not 'real'. They serve well in bringing our incomplete theories into a fit (just as the 'inflation' after the Big Bang etc.). As a former chemist (1/2c polymer pioneering) I do not believe (my own?) molecules of which I derived implemented technologies. They are maybe-s. How 'bout infinite complexities? Best regards John M On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 11:37 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > > > *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: > everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *John Mikes > *Sent:* Friday, June 20, 2014 1:52 PM > *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com > > *Subject:* Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to > us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)] > > > > They ARE black! Our eyes err. - Without joke: > > how about those plants that are not green? do they have a chlorophyl > > variation that is not green? or a different photosynth-mechsm? > > JM > > > > Not sure I understand what you are saying – How I have understood the > terms -- darkness (or black materials as well) is the absence of photons, > or for a black material the absorption of incident photons. Plants reflect > a large number of photons. This glaring (well reflective at least LOL) > sub-optimal utilization of available spectrum does seem to indicate that > this could be the result of a local evolutionary optima as Russell > suggested. > > My – off the top of my head guess – would be that the genetics and/or the > molecular machinery of chloroplasts have evolved into this corner and > cannot back out of this local optimization without breaking the machinery > in place that is necessary in order to sustain the organism. Even with this > sub-optimal apparatus green plants have done well for themselves on earth – > a life form just needs to be good enough to outcompete the alternatives and > fill an environmental niche (until it meets its match or the edge > boundaries of the niche in which it has a competitive advantage) > > Cheers, > > Chris > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:15 PM, LizR wrote: > > I have long thought that plants should be black, too, for this reason. > Anyone know why not? > > > > On 20 June 2014 11:40, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > Perhaps because the two mechanisms function quite differently and > apparently evolved independently. But I also sometimes wonder why in the > many hundreds of millions of years of time that no species has found a way > to utilize the missing chunk of spectrum. > > A perfect plant would have jet black leaves -- and use photons across all > wavelengths of the spectrum. Then there truly would be black forests. > > Chris > > > > > > Bacteriorhodopsin - Boundless Open Textbook > <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> > > [image: image] > <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> > > Bacteriorhodopsin - Boundless Open Textbook > <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> > > Bacteriorhodopsin acts a proton pump, generating cellular energy in a > manner independent of chlorophyll. Read more about bacteriorhodopsin in the > Bou... > > View on *www.boundless.com* > <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> > > Preview by Yahoo > > > *Bacteriorhodopsin acts a proton pump, generating cellular energy in a > manner independent of chlorophyll.* > KEY POINTS > > · Bacteriorhodopsin is a proton pump found in Archaea, it takes light > energy and coverts it into chemical energy, ATP, that can be used by the > cell for cellular functions. > > · Bacteriorhodopsin forms chains, which contain retinal molecule > <https://www.boundless.com/definition/molecules/> within, it is the > retinal molecule that absorbs a photon from light, it then changes the > confirmation of the nearby B
RE: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes Sent: Friday, June 20, 2014 1:52 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)] They ARE black! Our eyes err. - Without joke: how about those plants that are not green? do they have a chlorophyl variation that is not green? or a different photosynth-mechsm? JM Not sure I understand what you are saying – How I have understood the terms -- darkness (or black materials as well) is the absence of photons, or for a black material the absorption of incident photons. Plants reflect a large number of photons. This glaring (well reflective at least LOL) sub-optimal utilization of available spectrum does seem to indicate that this could be the result of a local evolutionary optima as Russell suggested. My – off the top of my head guess – would be that the genetics and/or the molecular machinery of chloroplasts have evolved into this corner and cannot back out of this local optimization without breaking the machinery in place that is necessary in order to sustain the organism. Even with this sub-optimal apparatus green plants have done well for themselves on earth – a life form just needs to be good enough to outcompete the alternatives and fill an environmental niche (until it meets its match or the edge boundaries of the niche in which it has a competitive advantage) Cheers, Chris On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:15 PM, LizR wrote: I have long thought that plants should be black, too, for this reason. Anyone know why not? On 20 June 2014 11:40, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote: Perhaps because the two mechanisms function quite differently and apparently evolved independently. But I also sometimes wonder why in the many hundreds of millions of years of time that no species has found a way to utilize the missing chunk of spectrum. A perfect plant would have jet black leaves -- and use photons across all wavelengths of the spectrum. Then there truly would be black forests. Chris Bacteriorhodopsin - Boundless Open Textbook <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> image <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> Bacteriorhodopsin - Boundless Open Textbook Bacteriorhodopsin acts a proton pump, generating cellular energy in a manner independent of chlorophyll. Read more about bacteriorhodopsin in the Bou... <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> View on www.boundless.com Preview by Yahoo Bacteriorhodopsin acts a proton pump, generating cellular energy in a manner independent of chlorophyll. KEY POINTS · Bacteriorhodopsin is a proton pump found in Archaea, it takes light energy and coverts it into chemical energy, ATP, that can be used by the cell for cellular functions. · Bacteriorhodopsin forms chains, which contain retinal <https://www.boundless.com/definition/molecules/> molecule within, it is the retinal molecule that absorbs a photon from light, it then changes the confirmation of the nearby Bacteriorhodopsin protein, allowing it to act as a proton pump. · While chlorophyll based ATP generation depends on a protein gradient, like bacteriorhodopsin, but with striking differences, suggesting that phototrophy evolved in <https://www.boundless.com/definition/bacteria/> bacteria and archaea independently of each other. [snip] These [bacteriochlorophylls ] also produce a proton gradient, but in a quite different and more indirect way involving an electron transfer chain consisting of several other proteins. Furthermore, chlorophylls are aided in capturing light energy by other pigments known as "antennas"; these are not present in bacteriorhodopsin-based systems. Last, chlorophyll-based phototrophy is coupled to carbon <https://www.boundless.com/definition/fixation/> fixation (the incorporation of carbon dioxide into larger organic molecules) and for that reason is photosynthesis, which is not true for bacteriorhodopsin-based system. _ From: meekerdb To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 10:51 AM Subject: Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)] On 6/18/2014 3:15 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote: >>But it does illustrate the way evolution can get
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
They ARE black! Our eyes err. - Without joke: how about those plants that are not green? do they have a chlorophyl variation that is not green? or a different photosynth-mechsm? JM On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:15 PM, LizR wrote: > I have long thought that plants should be black, too, for this reason. > Anyone know why not? > > > On 20 June 2014 11:40, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> Perhaps because the two mechanisms function quite differently and >> apparently evolved independently. But I also sometimes wonder why in the >> many hundreds of millions of years of time that no species has found a way >> to utilize the missing chunk of spectrum. >> A perfect plant would have jet black leaves -- and use photons across all >> wavelengths of the spectrum. Then there truly would be black forests. >> Chris >> >> >> Bacteriorhodopsin - Boundless Open Textbook >> <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> >> [image: image] >> <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> >> Bacteriorhodopsin - Boundless Open Textbook >> <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> >> Bacteriorhodopsin acts a proton pump, generating cellular energy in a >> manner independent of chlorophyll. Read more about bacteriorhodopsin in the >> Bou... >> View on www.boundless.com >> <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> >> Preview by Yahoo >> >> Bacteriorhodopsin acts a proton pump, generating cellular energy in a >> manner independent of chlorophyll. >> KEY POINTS >> >>- Bacteriorhodopsin is a proton pump found in Archaea, it takes light >>energy and coverts it into chemical energy, ATP, that can be used by the >>cell for cellular functions. >>- Bacteriorhodopsin forms chains, which contain retinal molecule >><https://www.boundless.com/definition/molecules/> within, it is the >>retinal molecule that absorbs a photon from light, it then changes the >>confirmation of the nearby Bacteriorhodopsin protein, allowing it to act >> as >>a proton pump. >>- While chlorophyll based ATP generation depends on a protein >>gradient, like bacteriorhodopsin, but with striking differences, >> suggesting >>that phototrophy evolved in bacteria >><https://www.boundless.com/definition/bacteria/> and archaea >>independently of each other. >> >> [snip] >> These [bacteriochlorophylls ] also produce a proton gradient, but in a >> quite different and more indirect way involving an electron transfer chain >> consisting of several other proteins. Furthermore, chlorophylls are aided >> in capturing light energy by other pigments known as "antennas"; these are >> not present in bacteriorhodopsin-based systems. Last, chlorophyll-based >> phototrophy is coupled to carbon fixation >> <https://www.boundless.com/definition/fixation/> (the incorporation of >> carbon dioxide into larger organic molecules) and for that reason is >> photosynthesis, which is not true for bacteriorhodopsin-based system. >> >> >> -- >> *From:* meekerdb >> *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com >> *Sent:* Thursday, June 19, 2014 10:51 AM >> >> *Subject:* Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to >> us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)] >> >> On 6/18/2014 3:15 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote: >> >> >>But it does illustrate the way evolution can get stuck in a local >> optima. And also further evidence that any purported Creator must be >> completely incompetent. >> >> Evolution always must begin with a preexisting platform -- so to speak >> -- and builds on top of it (in an evolutionary way). >> >> >> Yes, I'd heard the story about the purple bacteriodopsin that used the >> middle part of the visible spectrum. But the implication is that these >> bacteria were shading the bacteria or algae that developed chlorophyll. >> Which might be true, but they've not been shading them for the last billion >> years or so since plants came onto the land. So I don't see it has a local >> optimum. There's a big chunk of spectrum right there adjacent to the >> spectrum being used. There doesn
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
On 18 Jun 2014, at 07:27, meekerdb wrote: On 6/17/2014 9:36 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote: Pretty neat trick.. using quantum coherence to allow energy from captured sunlight to get to the algae's photosynthesis reaction centers as fast as possible. Quantum biology: Algae may prove to be key ingredient for organic solar cells http://www.techtimes.com/articles/8680/20140617/algae-may-prove-key-ingredie nt-organic-solar-cells.htm A research team led by Australian scientists says a strange quantum phenomenon during photosynthesis that allows algae to survive in low lights levels might lead to more efficient organic-based solar cells. The exact function of the quantum effect known as coherence in algae is unknown, they say, but likely is how they harvest energy from the sun at low light levels. "We studied tiny single-celled algae called cryptophytes that thrive in the bottom of pools of water, or under thick ice, where very little light reaches them," says senior study author Paul Curmi of the University of New South Wales. What is baffling to me is that photosynthesis in algae relies on absorption in the red and blue part of the spectrum, but reflects the big green part in between?? Why didn't it evolve another pigment to capture that in order to live in low light conditions? Interesting question, and ... interesting thread :) Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
I have long thought that plants should be black, too, for this reason. Anyone know why not? On 20 June 2014 11:40, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > Perhaps because the two mechanisms function quite differently and > apparently evolved independently. But I also sometimes wonder why in the > many hundreds of millions of years of time that no species has found a way > to utilize the missing chunk of spectrum. > A perfect plant would have jet black leaves -- and use photons across all > wavelengths of the spectrum. Then there truly would be black forests. > Chris > > > Bacteriorhodopsin - Boundless Open Textbook > <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> > [image: image] > <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> > Bacteriorhodopsin - Boundless Open Textbook > <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> > Bacteriorhodopsin acts a proton pump, generating cellular energy in a > manner independent of chlorophyll. Read more about bacteriorhodopsin in the > Bou... > View on www.boundless.com > <https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/> > Preview by Yahoo > > Bacteriorhodopsin acts a proton pump, generating cellular energy in a > manner independent of chlorophyll. > KEY POINTS > >- Bacteriorhodopsin is a proton pump found in Archaea, it takes light >energy and coverts it into chemical energy, ATP, that can be used by the >cell for cellular functions. >- Bacteriorhodopsin forms chains, which contain retinal molecule ><https://www.boundless.com/definition/molecules/> within, it is the >retinal molecule that absorbs a photon from light, it then changes the >confirmation of the nearby Bacteriorhodopsin protein, allowing it to act as >a proton pump. >- While chlorophyll based ATP generation depends on a protein >gradient, like bacteriorhodopsin, but with striking differences, suggesting >that phototrophy evolved in bacteria ><https://www.boundless.com/definition/bacteria/> and archaea >independently of each other. > > [snip] > These [bacteriochlorophylls ] also produce a proton gradient, but in a > quite different and more indirect way involving an electron transfer chain > consisting of several other proteins. Furthermore, chlorophylls are aided > in capturing light energy by other pigments known as "antennas"; these are > not present in bacteriorhodopsin-based systems. Last, chlorophyll-based > phototrophy is coupled to carbon fixation > <https://www.boundless.com/definition/fixation/> (the incorporation of > carbon dioxide into larger organic molecules) and for that reason is > photosynthesis, which is not true for bacteriorhodopsin-based system. > > > -------------- > *From:* meekerdb > *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, June 19, 2014 10:51 AM > > *Subject:* Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to > us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)] > > On 6/18/2014 3:15 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote: > > >>But it does illustrate the way evolution can get stuck in a local > optima. And also further evidence that any purported Creator must be > completely incompetent. > > Evolution always must begin with a preexisting platform -- so to speak > -- and builds on top of it (in an evolutionary way). > > > Yes, I'd heard the story about the purple bacteriodopsin that used the > middle part of the visible spectrum. But the implication is that these > bacteria were shading the bacteria or algae that developed chlorophyll. > Which might be true, but they've not been shading them for the last billion > years or so since plants came onto the land. So I don't see it has a local > optimum. There's a big chunk of spectrum right there adjacent to the > spectrum being used. There doesn't seem to be any significant barrier. > > Brent > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this me
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
Perhaps because the two mechanisms function quite differently and apparently evolved independently. But I also sometimes wonder why in the many hundreds of millions of years of time that no species has found a way to utilize the missing chunk of spectrum. A perfect plant would have jet black leaves -- and use photons across all wavelengths of the spectrum. Then there truly would be black forests. Chris Bacteriorhodopsin - Boundless Open Textbook Bacteriorhodopsin - Boundless Open Textbook Bacteriorhodopsin acts a proton pump, generating cellular energy in a manner independent of chlorophyll. Read more about bacteriorhodopsin in the Bou... View on www.boundless.com Preview by Yahoo Bacteriorhodopsin acts a proton pump, generating cellular energy in a manner independent of chlorophyll. KEY POINTS * Bacteriorhodopsin is a proton pump found in Archaea, it takes light energy and coverts it into chemical energy, ATP, that can be used by the cell for cellular functions. * Bacteriorhodopsin forms chains, which contain retinal molecule within, it is the retinal molecule that absorbs a photon from light, it then changes the confirmation of the nearby Bacteriorhodopsin protein, allowing it to act as a proton pump. * While chlorophyll based ATP generation depends on a protein gradient, like bacteriorhodopsin, but with striking differences, suggesting that phototrophy evolved in bacteria and archaea independently of each other. [snip] These [bacteriochlorophylls ] also produce a proton gradient, but in a quite different and more indirect way involving an electron transfer chain consisting of several other proteins. Furthermore, chlorophylls are aided in capturing light energy by other pigments known as "antennas"; these are not present in bacteriorhodopsin-based systems. Last, chlorophyll-based phototrophy is coupled to carbon fixation (the incorporation of carbon dioxide into larger organic molecules) and for that reason is photosynthesis, which is not true for bacteriorhodopsin-based system. From: meekerdb To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 10:51 AM Subject: Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)] On 6/18/2014 3:15 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote: >>But it does illustrate the way evolution can get stuck in a local >optima. And also further evidence that any purported Creator must be >completely incompetent. > > >Evolution always must begin with a preexisting platform -- so to speak -- and >builds on top of it (in an evolutionary way). Yes, I'd heard the story about the purple bacteriodopsin that used the middle part of the visible spectrum. But the implication is that these bacteria were shading the bacteria or algae that developed chlorophyll. Which might be true, but they've not been shading them for the last billion years or so since plants came onto the land. So I don't see it has a local optimum. There's a big chunk of spectrum right there adjacent to the spectrum being used. There doesn't seem to be any significant barrier. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
On 6/18/2014 3:15 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote: >>But it does illustrate the way evolution can get stuck in a local optima. And also further evidence that any purported Creator must be completely incompetent. Evolution always must begin with a preexisting platform -- so to speak -- and builds on top of it (in an evolutionary way). Yes, I'd heard the story about the purple bacteriodopsin that used the middle part of the visible spectrum. But the implication is that these bacteria were shading the bacteria or algae that developed chlorophyll. Which might be true, but they've not been shading them for the last billion years or so since plants came onto the land. So I don't see it has a local optimum. There's a big chunk of spectrum right there adjacent to the spectrum being used. There doesn't seem to be any significant barrier. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 3:45 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)] This geezer seems to think solar is good to go... http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/24317-the-turning-point-new-hope-for-the-climate Liz – the numbers clearly show that not only is solar good to go; it is going. Global installed capacity is growing at a very rapid rate; per unit costs will continue to come down (and in some favorable areas it is already becoming the low cost supply). Solar PV is very much of a knowledge industry and benefits from a Moore’s Law type of geometric growth (and fall in per unit price as well). There are some significant potential solar PV revolutions on the near horizon too. For example solar cells that harvest in more of the bandwidths of the spectrum including down into the infrared as well (they would continue to produce some power even when covered by light cloud cover) – such layered cells (tuned to different band gaps) could harvest a greater portion of the solar flux. Solar technology (across various orthogonal dimensions) is advancing and rapidly so – driven by the same congruence of technologies that is also driving informatics. Compare the speed of evolution of solar PV technology and techniques with say the rate of technological change in the coal sector. One is moving very fast the other by comparison is sitting still. The scales are tipping; the era of fossil energy is drawing to a close… and sooner than most people realize. Chris On 19 June 2014 10:15, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote: _ From: Russell Standish To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:31 AM Subject: Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)] On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 10:27:48PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: > > What is baffling to me is that photosynthesis in algae relies on > absorption in the red and blue part of the spectrum, but reflects > the big green part in between?? Why didn't it evolve another > pigment to capture that in order to live in low light conditions? > >>The idea I've heard is that the original photosynthesiser absorbed the green portion of the spectrum, and then the current photosynthesiser came along later, and made use of the remaining bits of the spectrum (red+blue), and ultimately outcompeted the earlier photosynthesis system. Interesting! Did not hear about this hypothesis... so thanks for sharing. I have also wondered why the green spectrum is not being used in photosynthesis. >>I gather the earlier photosynthetic system might still be around - the so-called purple bacteria, which use a different photosynthesis process producing sulfur, not oxygen. This also explain why the atmosphere was not oxygenated until ca 2Gya. >>But it does illustrate the way evolution can get stuck in a local optima. And also further evidence that any purported Creator must be completely incompetent. Evolution always must begin with a preexisting platform -- so to speak -- and builds on top of it (in an evolutionary way). Take the human brain as an example. We remain stuck with the (local optima) of our reptilian brains for example, and much of our functioning is still centered in these ancient parts of our brain. Evolution needs to live with what it got and build upon it and human brain anatomy tells this story of hundreds of millions of years of tinkering, adapting and adding new systems on top of older preexisting systems (as opposed to radical from the ground up re-building). Cheers, Chris Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au <http://www.hpcoders.com.au/> Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
This geezer seems to think solar is good to go... http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/24317-the-turning-point-new-hope-for-the-climate On 19 June 2014 10:15, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > -- > *From:* Russell Standish > *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:31 AM > *Subject:* Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to > us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)] > > On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 10:27:48PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: > > > > What is baffling to me is that photosynthesis in algae relies on > > absorption in the red and blue part of the spectrum, but reflects > > the big green part in between?? Why didn't it evolve another > > pigment to capture that in order to live in low light conditions? > > > > >>The idea I've heard is that the original photosynthesiser absorbed the > green portion of the spectrum, and then the current photosynthesiser > came along later, and made use of the remaining bits of the spectrum > (red+blue), and ultimately outcompeted the earlier photosynthesis > system. > > Interesting! Did not hear about this hypothesis... so thanks for sharing. > I have also wondered why the green spectrum is not being used in > photosynthesis. > > > >>I gather the earlier photosynthetic system might still be around - the > so-called purple bacteria, which use a different photosynthesis process > producing sulfur, not oxygen. > > This also explain why the atmosphere was not oxygenated until ca 2Gya. > > >>But it does illustrate the way evolution can get stuck in a local > optima. And also further evidence that any purported Creator must be > completely incompetent. > > Evolution always must begin with a preexisting platform -- so to speak -- > and builds on top of it (in an evolutionary way). Take the human brain as > an example. We remain stuck with the (local optima) of our reptilian brains > for example, and much of our functioning is still centered in these ancient > parts of our brain. Evolution needs to live with what it got and build upon > it and human brain anatomy tells this story of hundreds of millions of > years of tinkering, adapting and adding new systems on top of older > preexisting systems (as opposed to radical from the ground up re-building). > > Cheers, > Chris > > > Cheers > > -- > > > > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Principal, High Performance Coders > Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret > (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
From: Russell Standish To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:31 AM Subject: Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)] On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 10:27:48PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: > > What is baffling to me is that photosynthesis in algae relies on > absorption in the red and blue part of the spectrum, but reflects > the big green part in between?? Why didn't it evolve another > pigment to capture that in order to live in low light conditions? > >>The idea I've heard is that the original photosynthesiser absorbed the green portion of the spectrum, and then the current photosynthesiser came along later, and made use of the remaining bits of the spectrum (red+blue), and ultimately outcompeted the earlier photosynthesis system. Interesting! Did not hear about this hypothesis... so thanks for sharing. I have also wondered why the green spectrum is not being used in photosynthesis. >>I gather the earlier photosynthetic system might still be around - the so-called purple bacteria, which use a different photosynthesis process producing sulfur, not oxygen. This also explain why the atmosphere was not oxygenated until ca 2Gya. >>But it does illustrate the way evolution can get stuck in a local optima. And also further evidence that any purported Creator must be completely incompetent. Evolution always must begin with a preexisting platform -- so to speak -- and builds on top of it (in an evolutionary way). Take the human brain as an example. We remain stuck with the (local optima) of our reptilian brains for example, and much of our functioning is still centered in these ancient parts of our brain. Evolution needs to live with what it got and build upon it and human brain anatomy tells this story of hundreds of millions of years of tinkering, adapting and adding new systems on top of older preexisting systems (as opposed to radical from the ground up re-building). Cheers, Chris Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 09:06:00PM +1200, LizR wrote: > I suppose the Sun's spectral characteristics might have changed a bit since > chlorophyll evolved - though I wouldn't think *that* much. However, I agree > with Brent - I would think that any plant that evolved the ability to > absorb green light (not to mention infra red and all the other EM radiation > knocking around) would have a distinct advantage over the current lot, and > like Ice 9 the situation is surely unstable against something wandering > into that part of the genetic landscape. But having no knowledge of > biochemistry and suchlike I have no idea how likely that is. > I guess its rather unlikely, given that photosynthesis evolved twice in 4 billion years, with the last time poisoning the atmosphere causing a massive extinction event that has not been seen since. -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
I suppose the Sun's spectral characteristics might have changed a bit since chlorophyll evolved - though I wouldn't think *that* much. However, I agree with Brent - I would think that any plant that evolved the ability to absorb green light (not to mention infra red and all the other EM radiation knocking around) would have a distinct advantage over the current lot, and like Ice 9 the situation is surely unstable against something wandering into that part of the genetic landscape. But having no knowledge of biochemistry and suchlike I have no idea how likely that is. On 18 June 2014 19:31, Russell Standish wrote: > On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 10:27:48PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: > > > > What is baffling to me is that photosynthesis in algae relies on > > absorption in the red and blue part of the spectrum, but reflects > > the big green part in between?? Why didn't it evolve another > > pigment to capture that in order to live in low light conditions? > > > > The idea I've heard is that the original photosynthesiser absorbed the > green portion of the spectrum, and then the current photosynthesiser > came along later, and made use of the remaining bits of the spectrum > (red+blue), and ultimately outcompeted the earlier photosynthesis > system. > > I gather the earlier photosynthetic system might still be around - the > so-called purple bacteria, which use a different photosynthesis process > producing sulfur, not oxygen. > > This also explain why the atmosphere was not oxygenated until ca 2Gya. > > But it does illustrate the way evolution can get stuck in a local > optima. And also further evidence that any purported Creator must be > completely incompetent. > > Cheers > > -- > > > > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Principal, High Performance Coders > Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret > (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 10:27:48PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: > > What is baffling to me is that photosynthesis in algae relies on > absorption in the red and blue part of the spectrum, but reflects > the big green part in between?? Why didn't it evolve another > pigment to capture that in order to live in low light conditions? > The idea I've heard is that the original photosynthesiser absorbed the green portion of the spectrum, and then the current photosynthesiser came along later, and made use of the remaining bits of the spectrum (red+blue), and ultimately outcompeted the earlier photosynthesis system. I gather the earlier photosynthetic system might still be around - the so-called purple bacteria, which use a different photosynthesis process producing sulfur, not oxygen. This also explain why the atmosphere was not oxygenated until ca 2Gya. But it does illustrate the way evolution can get stuck in a local optima. And also further evidence that any purported Creator must be completely incompetent. Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
On 6/17/2014 9:36 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote: Pretty neat trick.. using quantum coherence to allow energy from captured sunlight to get to the algae's photosynthesis reaction centers as fast as possible. Quantum biology: Algae may prove to be key ingredient for organic solar cells http://www.techtimes.com/articles/8680/20140617/algae-may-prove-key-ingredie nt-organic-solar-cells.htm A research team led by Australian scientists says a strange quantum phenomenon during photosynthesis that allows algae to survive in low lights levels might lead to more efficient organic-based solar cells. The exact function of the quantum effect known as coherence in algae is unknown, they say, but likely is how they harvest energy from the sun at low light levels. "We studied tiny single-celled algae called cryptophytes that thrive in the bottom of pools of water, or under thick ice, where very little light reaches them," says senior study author Paul Curmi of the University of New South Wales. What is baffling to me is that photosynthesis in algae relies on absorption in the red and blue part of the spectrum, but reflects the big green part in between?? Why didn't it evolve another pigment to capture that in order to live in low light conditions? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]
Pretty neat trick.. using quantum coherence to allow energy from captured sunlight to get to the algae's photosynthesis reaction centers as fast as possible. Quantum biology: Algae may prove to be key ingredient for organic solar cells http://www.techtimes.com/articles/8680/20140617/algae-may-prove-key-ingredie nt-organic-solar-cells.htm A research team led by Australian scientists says a strange quantum phenomenon during photosynthesis that allows algae to survive in low lights levels might lead to more efficient organic-based solar cells. The exact function of the quantum effect known as coherence in algae is unknown, they say, but likely is how they harvest energy from the sun at low light levels. "We studied tiny single-celled algae called cryptophytes that thrive in the bottom of pools of water, or under thick ice, where very little light reaches them," says senior study author Paul Curmi of the University of New South Wales. While the light-harvesting method of most such types of algae displays quantum coherence, a genetic mutation altering a light-harvesting type of protein in some algae causes it to be switched off, the researchers found. The finding will allow the study of the role quantum coherence plays in photosynthesis by comparing algae with and without those proteins, Curmi said. In the often baffling realm of quantum physics, systems deemed to be coherent -- having all their quantum waves moving in step - can exist in different states at the same time, an effect called superposition, the researchers said. "The assumption is that this could increase the efficiency of photosynthesis, allowing the algae and bacteria to exist on almost no light," Curmi said. The assumption is that quantum coherence allows energy from captured sunlight to get to the algae's photosynthesis reaction centers as fast as possible, he said. "It was assumed the energy gets to the reaction [center] in a random fashion, like a drunk staggering home," Curmi said. "But quantum coherence would allow the energy to test every possible pathway simultaneously before travelling via the quickest route." The researchers said they utilized X-ray crystallography in order to analyze the structure of light-harvesting centers in three species of algae. All showed the genetic mutation that changed proteins and affected coherence, they said. "This shows cryptophytes have evolved an elegant but powerful genetic switch to control coherence and change the mechanisms used for light harvesting," Curmi said. In addition to possible pointing the way to better and more efficient organic solar cells, the finding could lead to a new class of quantum-based electronic devices, the researchers said. Their next step, the researchers said, would be to analyze and compare different cryptophytes inhabiting different environmental niche to see if the quantum coherence effect is a factor in their survival. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
