Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
On Fri, 19 May 2000, you wrote: Only those that want answers to their questions. grin It's just too much effort to dig out the message scrambled in all that HTML, that I don't bother. Hitting the delete key is so much easier. :-) Good come back! :-) John
Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
Hello pj You have expressed my sentiments as well. Fortunately most email readers can filter out noise like this almost automatically once they have been setup. I would not be in favour of any other form of censorship, such as having Mandrake Software remove them from the list, even assuming that they were willing to do so. Please stay on the list and activate a filter. Regards Ron Pj [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Before I found this MUG, I was in a newbie list, where I rightfully belonged. I was beseiged with foul language and temperamental children telling me and others to RTFM. I didn't appreciate the language then and I don't appreciate it now, personally. The reason this MUG was a great resource was because it was inhabited by persons who acted like adults. They didn't need to swear because they were frustrated. They needed answers and got them from their peers who were also on this list. At one time this list was not composed of home users. The people that ran our universities, and medical schools, and governments, and large corporations were very active on this list. The security experts and system analysists were here to help us secure our systems and make our networks function. Those names are missing, as are OUR developers and debuggers, that wrote the little scripts and taught us little tricks to keep us up and running after we shot ourselves in the foot. They are all gone. The only way to achieve this level of help again is to clean up our collective act or build a new MUG. From where I sit, and reading the level of questions submitted tese days there doesn't appear to be much to work with. The question is very basic. Do you want the guru's and developers back on this list to help us or not? If you do clean up the language, lose the attitude, exhibit a modicum of self control, open your ears and develop some patience. Then, just maybe Denis, SteveP, Dave, Zak, Ramone, Chamouol, Axalon, Jean-Michel and the other old heads will come back and rescue us from ourselves. I don't know about any one else on this list, but I need all the help I can get that's why I'm here. I'm not likely to leave and I'm not likely to help a whining, screaming, kid with a foul mouth and bad manners. And I know that I am not... a majority of one. Whether or not we read doc's isn't as important as trying the best we know how according to our level of knowledge. Not all of us have the ability to read the man page, but we all have the ability to try to clean up our own mess. As far as I am concerned if we are smart enough to run a Linux system successfully we are smart enough to be civilized and act like it in public. This list after all is a public forum. Pj --
Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
Ron, Thanks for you comments. I agree that activating a filter will remove certain types of mail. Sadly, by doing so ir will defeat the reason I posted my initial comments: to bring the guru's and developers back to this list. Exercising self control and showing respect will go along way toward repairing this MUG, imho. Pj [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello pj You have expressed my sentiments as well. Fortunately most email readers can filter out noise like this almost automatically once they have been setup. I would not be in favour of any other form of censorship, such as having Mandrake Software remove them from the list, even assuming that they were willing to do so. Please stay on the list and activate a filter. Regards Ron
Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello pj You have expressed my sentiments as well. Fortunately most email readers can filter out noise like this almost automatically once they have been setup. I would not be in favour of any other form of censorship, such as having Mandrake Software remove them from the list, even assuming that they were willing to do so. Please stay on the list and activate a filter. Regards Ron Pj [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Before I found this MUG, I was in a newbie list, where I rightfully belonged. I was beseiged with foul language and temperamental children telling me and others to RTFM. I didn't appreciate the language then and I don't appreciate it now, personally. The reason this MUG was a great resource was because it was inhabited by persons who acted like adults. They didn't need to swear because they were frustrated. They needed answers and got them from their peers who were also on this list. At one time this list was not composed of home users. The people that ran our universities, and medical schools, and governments, and large corporations were very active on this list. The security experts and system analysists were here to help us secure our systems and make our networks function. Those names are missing, as are OUR developers and debuggers, that wrote the little scripts and taught us little tricks to keep us up and running after we shot ourselves in the foot. They are all gone. The only way to achieve this level of help again is to clean up our collective act or build a new MUG. From where I sit, and reading the level of questions submitted tese days there doesn't appear to be much to work with. The question is very basic. Do you want the guru's and developers back on this list to help us or not? If you do clean up the language, lose the attitude, exhibit a modicum of self control, open your ears and develop some patience. Then, just maybe Denis, SteveP, Dave, Zak, Ramone, Chamouol, Axalon, Jean-Michel and the other old heads will come back and rescue us from ourselves. I don't know about any one else on this list, but I need all the help I can get that's why I'm here. I'm not likely to leave and I'm not likely to help a whining, screaming, kid with a foul mouth and bad manners. And I know that I am not... a majority of one. Whether or not we read doc's isn't as important as trying the best we know how according to our level of knowledge. Not all of us have the ability to read the man page, but we all have the ability to try to clean up our own mess. As far as I am concerned if we are smart enough to run a Linux system successfully we are smart enough to be civilized and act like it in public. This list after all is a public forum. Pj -- Well, there are messages I never see Filters are effective in trashing them unseen. HTML is one thing I filter, and people who are rude and demanding after a few of their posts. I am not as much an expert as a researcher, and most of my answers involve MY reading the fine material available, a conscious and time consuming procedure that rewards me with knowledge and understanding as well as the satisfaction of having helped someone. Usually I will get by the first few rude remarks and still help, but when I have had enough from any one poster... That one vanishes from my sight, and I rarely lift a filter to seek a changed attitude. Of late I have been less active on this list. Some others have been less active as well. Not all of us because of the rude remarks--other duties, travel, and documentation projects have intervened. But as long as I have people genuinely seeking help, I will give what time I can, as an unpaid volunteer, to answer. Civileme
Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
Civileme You've been on this list a very long time. I've seen you post sharp replies to some authors. I've seen you take a break from this list. I've read your minutely detailed replies that were one page long. I've even seen a typo or two, but I've never seen a swear word or derogatory remarks about Mandrake or just plain bad manners in your posts. If you remember when I joined this list the developers monitored it and were quite active. Now it is rare to see a reply to this list directly from Mandrake. There's are more than a few of us who would like to correct the problems and put the list back on track. I got a lot of "understanding in my soul" by being here and being exposed to those Mandrake and Linux specalists who, btw, are sorely missed. Maybe this effort is for nought. Perhaps the developers and old guru's will never return, but we will not know the answer if we don't make the effort. Mandrake does a great job of giving us a terrific product. We want them to know that their effort is appreciated by many members of this MUG list and their collective expertise is needed here too. Turning on a filter is an easy way out of trash talk. You breathe Linux; It gives me nightmares. If I filter mail I might miss a learning opportunity and I can't afford it. Thank you for your comments, patience and cool head, Civileme. Pj [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi
SV: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
-- Från: John Aldrich [EMAIL PROTECTED] Till: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ämne: Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie Datum: den 19 maj 2000 20:59 Good points! I would add to your "stop screaming" that people who wish help will be MORE likely to receive help if A) they ask nicely, and B) if they post their request in PLAIN, ASCII TEXT! Why the latter suggestion? Because more than one "expert" here has stated that they find it extremely difficult to read HTML in the mail client of choice: KMail. Since Mandrake defaults to KDE as the desktop / window manager of choice, KMail is the obvious mail client of choice for a large number of users. Unfortunately, many of the people who come to this list for help are posting either from Netscape, Outlook Express or Eudora Light. All three default to HTML posting. At least with Outlook Express one doesn't have to wade through all the clutter of the HTML source code. Brand me an "elitest" if you wish, but I, for one, feel that if someone is coming to ME for help (most of the time, I'll admit, I just lurk here G) they darn well better ask in plain text. I've been guilty of sending out "nastynotes" in the past, but more often than not, I've taken the time to explain WHY people should post in plain text. Unfortunately some people on this list (and others) have taken it as a personal affront that I try and change their posting preferences. Well, doggone it, THEY'RE the ones asking for help! Besides, I have been (lately) unfailingly polite and kind in asking people to stop posting in HTML. If they can't take a nice request for plain text, I'm guessing they aren't "Linux People" in the first place. MOST people I've sent plain-text requests to have been quite polite about it, either saying they forgot to change their preferences or that they didn't realize that Netscape/Eudora/OE defaulted to HTML and quickly changed their preferences. I guess what I'm saying is it all boils down to politeness -- be polite when asking for help, not only in your tone, but also in your MANNER of posting. My $0.02. John Who cares!
Re: SV: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
On Fri, 19 May 2000, you wrote: I guess what I'm saying is it all boils down to politeness -- be polite when asking for help, not only in your tone, but also in your MANNER of posting. My $0.02. John Who cares! Hmm...perhaps people who'd like to see this list return to some form of civility? My suggestion (to you and others who have an attitude similar to yours) is this: if you don't like this list, remove yourself from this list! John
Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
Only those that want answers to their questions. grin It's just too much effort to dig out the message scrambled in all that HTML, that I don't bother. Hitting the delete key is so much easier. Ron - Original Message - From: Mahmuth ahthumbha The III [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 3:20 PM Subject: SV: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie -- Från: John Aldrich [EMAIL PROTECTED] Till: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ämne: Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie Datum: den 19 maj 2000 20:59 Good points! I would add to your "stop screaming" that people who wish help will be MORE likely to receive help if A) they ask nicely, and B) if they post their request in PLAIN, ASCII TEXT! Who cares!
Re: SV: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
MahmuthI do! And you should care as well. Alan Mahmuth ahthumbha The III wrote: -- Från: John Aldrich [EMAIL PROTECTED] Till: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ämne: Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie Datum: den 19 maj 2000 20:59 Good points! I would add to your "stop screaming" that people who wish help will be MORE likely to receive help if A) they ask nicely, and B) if they post their request in PLAIN, ASCII TEXT! Why the latter suggestion? Because more than one "expert" here has stated that they find it extremely difficult to read HTML in the mail client of choice: KMail. Since Mandrake defaults to KDE as the desktop / window manager of choice, KMail is the obvious mail client of choice for a large number of users. Unfortunately, many of the people who come to this list for help are posting either from Netscape, Outlook Express or Eudora Light. All three default to HTML posting. At least with Outlook Express one doesn't have to wade through all the clutter of the HTML source code. Brand me an "elitest" if you wish, but I, for one, feel that if someone is coming to ME for help (most of the time, I'll admit, I just lurk here G) they darn well better ask in plain text. I've been guilty of sending out "nastynotes" in the past, but more often than not, I've taken the time to explain WHY people should post in plain text. Unfortunately some people on this list (and others) have taken it as a personal affront that I try and change their posting preferences. Well, doggone it, THEY'RE the ones asking for help! Besides, I have been (lately) unfailingly polite and kind in asking people to stop posting in HTML. If they can't take a nice request for plain text, I'm guessing they aren't "Linux People" in the first place. MOST people I've sent plain-text requests to have been quite polite about it, either saying they forgot to change their preferences or that they didn't realize that Netscape/Eudora/OE defaulted to HTML and quickly changed their preferences. I guess what I'm saying is it all boils down to politeness -- be polite when asking for help, not only in your tone, but also in your MANNER of posting. My $0.02. John Who cares!
[expert] OT: Linux Newbie
Hello List, My comments are not intended to start a thread or a flame. Please contact me privately if you feel compelled to comment. I am a newbie, a fact I do not hide. I joined this group several months ago to learn- when I loaded my very first mdk distro and discovered how deep the water is. You have taught me well and for that I am grateful and I thank you for your time and patience. During these months I've watched an ugly metamorphisis take plce. The list then was monitored by Mandrake developers and programers. They generously took time to respond. The list then was filled with replies from some of the brightest minds in the Linux communtity. Combined, these folks probably had a million years of *NIX experience they were willing to share just for asking. So what happened? From my vantage point I've seen an erosion not only in the type of question but also the attitude. This list was composed of well-mannered men and women..what my father would call ladies and gentlemen. The list slowly changed from a polite demeanor to one of demanding, shouting, cursing and temper tantrums. Our Mandrake developers have been cussed, discussed and generally trashed because some whiny baby doesn't know how to use a new operating system. Thus the fault changed from the operator to the program creators. [Speaking for myself I can only say that every error message I've seen in Venus, my distro, has been of my own making becasue I don't understand the basics yet.] This list is for Mandrake Experts. It is not a baby-sitting service. No one on this list is obligated to answer any question. No one is obligated to answer instantly. Your demands, my demands and future demands are just that: demands. The gentle members of this list frequently ignore these messages as they should. Lately, I've read a lot of messages with attitude written all over the subjet line: "How many times do I have to...?"; "Mandrake Sucks"; "I've written x times why ...?". Regardless of content the message is the same: I am the most important person on this list and I demand an answer right now! Guess what? You aren't the most important person on this list. Everyone has equal standing. If you don't have a life, get one. As far as I have been able to determine there is no perfect operating system. Not every piece of hardware made will work on every system. Not every piece of software written will work on every system. There are too many machine configurations to consider. The advantage of Linux, particularly the Mandrake distro, over Winblows is twofold: MUG and modules. If *it* doen't work to your satisfaction you can fix *it* yourself without waiting months for a patch that fixes your whole system. Many times in the past a Mandrake developer would posted a small script to fix a particularly thorny problem for one person. I don't see this anymore. To the people who need this list the most, I have some advice: Be polite. Please and thank you go a long way toward getting a quick response. Be patient. We live in every time zone in the world, please take this into consideration as well as the fact that we all have private lives. STOP SCREAMING!! It's annoying and a guaranteed way to not receive a reply. Stop making demands; it's rude. Admit you don't know how to do something and be grateful when you get the answer. We all have frustrating issues, don't let it spill into this list. This MUG is a great group of guys and gals, please help keep it that way. Thanks, Pj
Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
** Reply to message from Pj [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Thu, 18 May 2000 17:27:02 -0500 PJ, Well stated! Bravo and thank-you. George
Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
You *GO* girl! RIght on! John Subject: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie Hello List, My comments are not intended to start a thread or a flame. Please contact me privately if you feel compelled to comment. I am a newbie, a fact I do not hide. I joined this group several months ago to learn- when I loaded my very first mdk distro and discovered how deep the water is. You have taught me well and for that I am grateful and I thank you for your time and patience. During these months I've watched an ugly metamorphisis take plce. The list then was monitored by Mandrake developers and programers. They generously took time to respond. The list then was filled with replies from some of the brightest minds in the Linux communtity. Combined, these folks probably had a million years of *NIX experience they were willing to share just for asking. So what happened? From my vantage point I've seen an erosion not only in the type of question but also the attitude. This list was composed of well-mannered men and women..what my father would call ladies and gentlemen. The list slowly changed from a polite demeanor to one of demanding, shouting, cursing and temper tantrums. Our Mandrake developers have been cussed, discussed and generally trashed because some whiny baby doesn't know how to use a new operating system. Thus the fault changed from the operator to the program creators. [Speaking for myself I can only say that every error message I've seen in Venus, my distro, has been of my own making becasue I don't understand the basics yet.] This list is for Mandrake Experts. It is not a baby-sitting service. No one on this list is obligated to answer any question. No one is obligated to answer instantly. Your demands, my demands and future demands are just that: demands. The gentle members of this list frequently ignore these messages as they should. Lately, I've read a lot of messages with attitude written all over the subjet line: "How many times do I have to...?"; "Mandrake Sucks"; "I've written x times why ...?". Regardless of content the message is the same: I am the most important person on this list and I demand an answer right now! Guess what? You aren't the most important person on this list. Everyone has equal standing. If you don't have a life, get one. As far as I have been able to determine there is no perfect operating system. Not every piece of hardware made will work on every system. Not every piece of software written will work on every system. There are too many machine configurations to consider. The advantage of Linux, particularly the Mandrake distro, over Winblows is twofold: MUG and modules. If *it* doen't work to your satisfaction you can fix *it* yourself without waiting months for a patch that fixes your whole system. Many times in the past a Mandrake developer would posted a small script to fix a particularly thorny problem for one person. I don't see this anymore. To the people who need this list the most, I have some advice: Be polite. Please and thank you go a long way toward getting a quick response. Be patient. We live in every time zone in the world, please take this into consideration as well as the fact that we all have private lives. STOP SCREAMING!! It's annoying and a guaranteed way to not receive a reply. Stop making demands; it's rude. Admit you don't know how to do something and be grateful when you get the answer. We all have frustrating issues, don't let it spill into this list. This MUG is a great group of guys and gals, please help keep it that way. Thanks, Pj
Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
Excellent points PJ. Unfortinatly I see this poor conduct on just about every mailing list I am on now or ever have been on. Might I add, if someone feels their question was not answered it could be no one has the answer just yet for you. Sometimes this takes times, and most if not everyone has other things in life keeping them busy. I for one have 3 mo old triplet boys along with three teen daughters...I for one am quite busy. -- Best Regards, Bruce Father to Bruce, Maverick Aleister 1 Feb 2000 Akina, age 14, Misa, age 12, Miyuki age 10 My website: http://harrisherd.ahv.cx
Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
On Thu, May 18, 2000 at 05:27:02PM -0500, Pj wrote: - Hello List, - - My comments are not intended to start a thread or a flame. Please - contact me privately if you feel compelled to comment. - - I am a newbie, a fact I do not hide. I joined this group several months - ago to learn- when I loaded my very first mdk distro and discovered how - deep the water is. You have taught me well and for that I am grateful - and I thank you for your time and patience. Bravo, well said and well done! Stand up and give the person a rip snorting huzzah! I would add one thing to your list of suggestions for those seeking information. Try to show that you have made some effort yourself before making your inquiry. -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley
Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
On Thu, May 18, 2000 at 06:49:19PM -0400, Bruce E. Harris wrote: - Excellent points PJ. Unfortinatly I see this poor conduct on just about every - mailing list I am on now or ever have been on. - - Might I add, if someone feels their question was not answered it could be no - one has the answer just yet for you. Sometimes this takes times, and most if - not everyone has other things in life keeping them busy. I for one have 3 mo - old triplet boys along with three teen daughters...I for one am quite busy. Exactly so. Or, no-one has the answer at all. Most of us do not respond to messages with "Sorry, I don't know", and a good thing, too. :-) If you don't get a response in three or four days, rephrase it, let us know what you have done about it in the interim, and give us more details. -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley
Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
You tell 'em! To all you 'experts' out there: Thank you all so much for being there. You won't find ingratitude here. Bambi John Connell wrote: You *GO* girl! RIght on! John Subject: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie Hello List, My comments are not intended to start a thread or a flame. Please contact me privately if you feel compelled to comment. I am a newbie, a fact I do not hide. I joined this group several months ago to learn- when I loaded my very first mdk distro and discovered how deep the water is. You have taught me well and for that I am grateful and I thank you for your time and patience. During these months I've watched an ugly metamorphisis take plce. The list then was monitored by Mandrake developers and programers. They generously took time to respond. The list then was filled with replies from some of the brightest minds in the Linux communtity. Combined, these folks probably had a million years of *NIX experience they were willing to share just for asking. So what happened? From my vantage point I've seen an erosion not only in the type of question but also the attitude. This list was composed of well-mannered men and women..what my father would call ladies and gentlemen. The list slowly changed from a polite demeanor to one of demanding, shouting, cursing and temper tantrums. Our Mandrake developers have been cussed, discussed and generally trashed because some whiny baby doesn't know how to use a new operating system. Thus the fault changed from the operator to the program creators. [Speaking for myself I can only say that every error message I've seen in Venus, my distro, has been of my own making becasue I don't understand the basics yet.] This list is for Mandrake Experts. It is not a baby-sitting service. No one on this list is obligated to answer any question. No one is obligated to answer instantly. Your demands, my demands and future demands are just that: demands. The gentle members of this list frequently ignore these messages as they should. Lately, I've read a lot of messages with attitude written all over the subjet line: "How many times do I have to...?"; "Mandrake Sucks"; "I've written x times why ...?". Regardless of content the message is the same: I am the most important person on this list and I demand an answer right now! Guess what? You aren't the most important person on this list. Everyone has equal standing. If you don't have a life, get one. As far as I have been able to determine there is no perfect operating system. Not every piece of hardware made will work on every system. Not every piece of software written will work on every system. There are too many machine configurations to consider. The advantage of Linux, particularly the Mandrake distro, over Winblows is twofold: MUG and modules. If *it* doen't work to your satisfaction you can fix *it* yourself without waiting months for a patch that fixes your whole system. Many times in the past a Mandrake developer would posted a small script to fix a particularly thorny problem for one person. I don't see this anymore. To the people who need this list the most, I have some advice: Be polite. Please and thank you go a long way toward getting a quick response. Be patient. We live in every time zone in the world, please take this into consideration as well as the fact that we all have private lives. STOP SCREAMING!! It's annoying and a guaranteed way to not receive a reply. Stop making demands; it's rude. Admit you don't know how to do something and be grateful when you get the answer. We all have frustrating issues, don't let it spill into this list. This MUG is a great group of guys and gals, please help keep it that way. Thanks, Pj
Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
Just as an example, yesterday I went to Best Buy and purchased SuSE 6.4. I had Mandrake 6.1 running fine, with a 2940 Adaptec controller..., attached to that via the internal cable is a NEC Scsi CD-ROM drive and a Ricoh RW7060S. External cable goes to my Zip drive..., everything is cool. I zap my Mandrake partitions and install SuSE, and it fails. (timeout on the Ricoh drive) By this time I'm starting to get pissed, but I go watch TV and figured I'll tackle the problem after work the next day. (Day 2) I boot Win98, and insert a cd into the Ricoh, same problem..., disconnect that drive, reboot and everything is working. (talk about ODD timing for a failure!) In a nutshell, Murphy's law does rule. ;) One thing that might be learned from the above is that: 1: I didn't send a nasty email to SuSE. 2: I didn't send a nasty email to Mandrake 3: I mellowed out and evaluated things the next day. 4: See #3. ;) As a background, I've been using Linux since '92, (on and off) and prior to that, Esix, Xenix, DOS and forcefully forced into Windows version, (insert version here) for my clients. I hated GUI's forever, and can still do most tasks faster via a prompt vs a GUI. (although I do tend to like Windowmaker) As far as a RTFM goes, one "should" read the FAQ's and do a bit of research before asking something. Or, if you have a few extra dollars, go to Barnes and Noble and pick up some good books from O'Reilly. JMHO. Regards, Dana Charles Curley wrote: On Thu, May 18, 2000 at 06:49:19PM -0400, Bruce E. Harris wrote: - Excellent points PJ. Unfortinatly I see this poor conduct on just about every - mailing list I am on now or ever have been on. - - Might I add, if someone feels their question was not answered it could be no - one has the answer just yet for you. Sometimes this takes times, and most if - not everyone has other things in life keeping them busy. I for one have 3 mo - old triplet boys along with three teen daughters...I for one am quite busy. Exactly so. Or, no-one has the answer at all. Most of us do not respond to messages with "Sorry, I don't know", and a good thing, too. :-) If you don't get a response in three or four days, rephrase it, let us know what you have done about it in the interim, and give us more details. -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley
Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
Just a few words: I do agree totally and its nice to hear someone not shouting and screaming; all the guys inside this list are doing a great job!!! - Original Message - From: "Pj" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 12:27 AM Subject: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie Hello List, My comments are not intended to start a thread or a flame. Please contact me privately if you feel compelled to comment. I am a newbie, a fact I do not hide. I joined this group several months ago to learn- when I loaded my very first mdk distro and discovered how deep the water is. You have taught me well and for that I am grateful and I thank you for your time and patience. During these months I've watched an ugly metamorphisis take plce. The list then was monitored by Mandrake developers and programers. They generously took time to respond. The list then was filled with replies from some of the brightest minds in the Linux communtity. Combined, these folks probably had a million years of *NIX experience they were willing to share just for asking. So what happened? From my vantage point I've seen an erosion not only in the type of question but also the attitude. This list was composed of well-mannered men and women..what my father would call ladies and gentlemen. The list slowly changed from a polite demeanor to one of demanding, shouting, cursing and temper tantrums. Our Mandrake developers have been cussed, discussed and generally trashed because some whiny baby doesn't know how to use a new operating system. Thus the fault changed from the operator to the program creators. [Speaking for myself I can only say that every error message I've seen in Venus, my distro, has been of my own making becasue I don't understand the basics yet.] This list is for Mandrake Experts. It is not a baby-sitting service. No one on this list is obligated to answer any question. No one is obligated to answer instantly. Your demands, my demands and future demands are just that: demands. The gentle members of this list frequently ignore these messages as they should. Lately, I've read a lot of messages with attitude written all over the subjet line: "How many times do I have to...?"; "Mandrake Sucks"; "I've written x times why ...?". Regardless of content the message is the same: I am the most important person on this list and I demand an answer right now! Guess what? You aren't the most important person on this list. Everyone has equal standing. If you don't have a life, get one. As far as I have been able to determine there is no perfect operating system. Not every piece of hardware made will work on every system. Not every piece of software written will work on every system. There are too many machine configurations to consider. The advantage of Linux, particularly the Mandrake distro, over Winblows is twofold: MUG and modules. If *it* doen't work to your satisfaction you can fix *it* yourself without waiting months for a patch that fixes your whole system. Many times in the past a Mandrake developer would posted a small script to fix a particularly thorny problem for one person. I don't see this anymore. To the people who need this list the most, I have some advice: Be polite. Please and thank you go a long way toward getting a quick response. Be patient. We live in every time zone in the world, please take this into consideration as well as the fact that we all have private lives. STOP SCREAMING!! It's annoying and a guaranteed way to not receive a reply. Stop making demands; it's rude. Admit you don't know how to do something and be grateful when you get the answer. We all have frustrating issues, don't let it spill into this list. This MUG is a great group of guys and gals, please help keep it that way. Thanks, Pj
Re: [expert] OT: Linux Newbie
Before I found this MUG, I was in a newbie list, where I rightfully belonged. I was beseiged with foul language and temperamental children telling me and others to RTFM. I didn't appreciate the language then and I don't appreciate it now, personally. The reason this MUG was a great resource was because it was inhabited by persons who acted like adults. They didn't need to swear because they were frustrated. They needed answers and got them from their peers who were also on this list. At one time this list was not composed of home users. The people that ran our universities, and medical schools, and governments, and large corporations were very active on this list. The security experts and system analysists were here to help us secure our systems and make our networks function. Those names are missing, as are OUR developers and debuggers, that wrote the little scripts and taught us little tricks to keep us up and running after we shot ourselves in the foot. They are all gone. The only way to achieve this level of help again is to clean up our collective act or build a new MUG. From where I sit, and reading the level of questions submitted tese days there doesn't appear to be much to work with. The question is very basic. Do you want the guru's and developers back on this list to help us or not? If you do clean up the language, lose the attitude, exhibit a modicum of self control, open your ears and develop some patience. Then, just maybe Denis, SteveP, Dave, Zak, Ramone, Chamouol, Axalon, Jean-Michel and the other old heads will come back and rescue us from ourselves. I don't know about any one else on this list, but I need all the help I can get that's why I'm here. I'm not likely to leave and I'm not likely to help a whining, screaming, kid with a foul mouth and bad manners. And I know that I am not... a majority of one. Whether or not we read doc's isn't as important as trying the best we know how according to our level of knowledge. Not all of us have the ability to read the man page, but we all have the ability to try to clean up our own mess. As far as I am concerned if we are smart enough to run a Linux system successfully we are smart enough to be civilized and act like it in public. This list after all is a public forum. Pj
