Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 07:30, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: > On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 02:36, John Wilson wrote: > > On October 23, 2003 07:17 pm, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: > > > I just heard on Fox news that a pseudo-solar flare has erupted on the > > > sun, and we now have a massive wave of electromagnetic energy and > > > particles headed our way. It's due to hit tommorrow. No kidding. > > > > > > Supposedly the max rating for such a storm is "G5", this storm is > > > supposed to be "G3" or so. Satellite communications might be disrupted > > > and they say cell phone communications are at risk as well. Anything > > > that's wireless may be affected. I will probably definitely be affected > > > since my internet connection is satellite uplink. > > > > > > Anyways, watch out for voltage spikes and stuff like that. > > > > > > > > > LX > > > > > > Dunno what Fox was on about but you can no more get a voltage spike from solar > > flares than you can from making tea. :-) > > Sorry, but you are wrong on that. Historically solar flares have played > havoc with *both* telecommunications and power grids. FYI: > > http://www.star.ucl.ac.uk/~idh/STROBEL/starsun/strsuna.htm > > > "Solar flares are eruptions more powerful than surge prominences. They > will last only few minutes to a few hours. A lot of ionized material is > ejected in a flare. Unlike the material in prominences, the solar flare > material moves with enough energy to escape the Sun's gravity. When this > burst of ions reaches the Earth, it interferes with radio communication. > Sometimes a solar flare will cause voltage pulses or surges in power and > telephone lines. Brownouts or blackouts may result. Humans travelling > outside the protection of the Earth's magnetic field will need to have > shielding from the powerful ions in a flare." Hence the problems Satellites have. Though they are heavily shielded. The particles can affect the bird itself in some very nasty ways. Not to mention the affect of having large sails (solar panels) sticking out into the breeze (Solar wind) can have. NASA apparently lost one of their older birds today. (minor bird from what I'm told soon to be burned up anyway.) due to this affect. James > > > > > What you do get is messed up satellite communications and the probability of > > all communications running through the air of messing up at some high point > > and at some frequency levels. As cell phones operate in a vulnerable > > frequency range it's a good bet. > > > > There is every possibility, depending on the severity of the storm that some > > broadcast fequencies will be messed up as well. Things like Short Wave, for > > example. > > > > AC voltage operates at the relatively sluggish rate of 60Hz, far below the > > 1 GHz and higher range that these things generally affect. > > > > What those like Femme may be able to see is a spectacular display of the > > Northern Lights, assuming it's a clear night. Sadly, I won't see much. Too > > much light from the city and far too many large mountains in the way. :) > > > > For those of us in the telecom biz it means we get to cover a monsterous > > number of sins of ommission and commission by blaming it all on the sun. :-) > > > Heh. A golden opportunity. :) > > > Well, I for one can tell you that I'm having problems right now. My > uplink is going online and offline, pretty continuously. I have to wait > for an online time slice before I send anything. > > > > ttfn > > > > John > > LX > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 01:11, Seak, Teng-Fong wrote: > "By tomorrow" means 24 October? Strange that EM wave from the Sun > would take days to reach the Earth instead of 8 minutes :-D Not really the flares visible portion is traveling at the speed of light yes, but the flare itself is traveling at a much slower speed. (Damn fast instead of fscking fast.) james > > John Wilson wrote: > > >On October 23, 2003 07:17 pm, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: > > > > > >>I just heard on Fox news that a pseudo-solar flare has erupted on the > >>sun, and we now have a massive wave of electromagnetic energy and > >>particles headed our way. It's due to hit tommorrow. No kidding. > >> > >>Supposedly the max rating for such a storm is "G5", this storm is > >>supposed to be "G3" or so. Satellite communications might be disrupted > >>and they say cell phone communications are at risk as well. Anything > >>that's wireless may be affected. I will probably definitely be affected > >>since my internet connection is satellite uplink. > >> > >>Anyways, watch out for voltage spikes and stuff like that. > >> > >> > >>LX > >> > >> > > > > > >Dunno what Fox was on about but you can no more get a voltage spike from solar > >flares than you can from making tea. :-) > > > >What you do get is messed up satellite communications and the probability of > >all communications running through the air of messing up at some high point > >and at some frequency levels. As cell phones operate in a vulnerable > >frequency range it's a good bet. > > > >There is every possibility, depending on the severity of the storm that some > >broadcast fequencies will be messed up as well. Things like Short Wave, for > >example. > > > >AC voltage operates at the relatively sluggish rate of 60Hz, far below the > >1 GHz and higher range that these things generally affect. > > > >What those like Femme may be able to see is a spectacular display of the > >Northern Lights, assuming it's a clear night. Sadly, I won't see much. Too > >much light from the city and far too many large mountains in the way. :) > > > >For those of us in the telecom biz it means we get to cover a monsterous > >number of sins of ommission and commission by blaming it all on the sun. :-) > > > >ttfn > > > >John > > > > > > > > > > > >Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > >Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com > > > > > > > > __ > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
On Thu, 2003-10-23 at 23:36, John Wilson wrote: > On October 23, 2003 07:17 pm, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: > > I just heard on Fox news that a pseudo-solar flare has erupted on the > > sun, and we now have a massive wave of electromagnetic energy and > > particles headed our way. It's due to hit tommorrow. No kidding. > > > > Supposedly the max rating for such a storm is "G5", this storm is > > supposed to be "G3" or so. Satellite communications might be disrupted > > and they say cell phone communications are at risk as well. Anything > > that's wireless may be affected. I will probably definitely be affected > > since my internet connection is satellite uplink. > > > > Anyways, watch out for voltage spikes and stuff like that. > > > > > > LX > > > Dunno what Fox was on about but you can no more get a voltage spike from solar > flares than you can from making tea. :-) http://www.hsb.com/thelocomotive/Story/FullStory/ST-FS-SOLAR.html http://www.theinternetfoundation.org/Notes/Y2K/defense/SolarMaximum.htm (old in that it refers to the flares of 89 but accurate.) for example. Solar flares are a tremendous source of HEMP (High Energy Magnetic Pulse) induced voltages. Since a Solar flare is a great source of Magnetic Flux http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/google_referrer.taf?article_product_code=NATURE&fulltext_filename=/nature/journal/v394/n6693/full/394552a0_fs.html&_UserReference=C0A804F846519B16967379CA89833F9A0CE7 The appearance of the waves from a solar outbreak works a lot like a magnet and a coil in that it can induce voltage into an antenna. Now you may say "My computer doesn't have an antenna". Actually it's got lots of them. Ethernet cable, keyboard cable, mouse cable, Ribbon Cables, wires, etc etc etc. Not to mention the really long antenna it's connected to. House wiring, Transmission lines etc. Not also that the voltage spike/reaction you may see could quite well be as the result of a reaction to the flares not a direct result. (A friend of mine in LA lost his cable modem due to an induced electrical backflow today. They had to replace his and about a dozen others around him.) James BTW making tea can indirectly cause a voltage spike. (in a negative direction) You turn on the electric burner. It pops the circuit breaker, you unplug it and reset the breaker. Upon resetting the breaker the resulting spike from restoring power blows your monitor because you forgot to turn it off before restoring power. This isn't a direct cause and effect but rather an indirect one. > > What you do get is messed up satellite communications and the probability of > all communications running through the air of messing up at some high point > and at some frequency levels. As cell phones operate in a vulnerable > frequency range it's a good bet. > > There is every possibility, depending on the severity of the storm that some > broadcast fequencies will be messed up as well. Things like Short Wave, for > example. > > AC voltage operates at the relatively sluggish rate of 60Hz, far below the > 1 GHz and higher range that these things generally affect. Remember too that RF interference is but a single component of a solar flare there is also IR interference and Magnetic Flux to name a few of the additional components. Either that or NASA is lying to me when specking out the computers that hopefully I will be building soon for them. (Please God Please, cause if we don't start soon I'm seriously going to be moving under a bridge for Christmas.) > > What those like Femme may be able to see is a spectacular display of the > Northern Lights, assuming it's a clear night. Sadly, I won't see much. Too > much light from the city and far too many large mountains in the way. :) Oh yeah... I would love it I could see those for sure. > > For those of us in the telecom biz it means we get to cover a monsterous > number of sins of ommission and commission by blaming it all on the sun. :-) Yeah, and you might even be right when you think you aren't *grin* > > ttfn > > John > > > __ > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
Could the em wave have a lot of energy at 2.4ghz? My wireless connection was almost unusable most of wednesday and thursday, but is back to normal now. Dan On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 10:30, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: > On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 02:36, John Wilson wrote: > > On October 23, 2003 07:17 pm, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: > > > I just heard on Fox news that a pseudo-solar flare has erupted on the > > > sun, and we now have a massive wave of electromagnetic energy and > > > particles headed our way. It's due to hit tommorrow. No kidding. > > > > > > Supposedly the max rating for such a storm is "G5", this storm is > > > supposed to be "G3" or so. Satellite communications might be disrupted > > > and they say cell phone communications are at risk as well. Anything > > > that's wireless may be affected. I will probably definitely be affected > > > since my internet connection is satellite uplink. > > > > > > Anyways, watch out for voltage spikes and stuff like that. > > > > > > > > > LX > > > > > http://www.star.ucl.ac.uk/~idh/STROBEL/starsun/strsuna.htm > > > > > > What those like Femme may be able to see is a spectacular display of the > > Northern Lights, assuming it's a clear night. Sadly, I won't see much. Too > > much light from the city and far too many large mountains in the way. :) > > > > For those of us in the telecom biz it means we get to cover a monsterous > > number of sins of ommission and commission by blaming it all on the sun. :-) > > > Heh. A golden opportunity. :) > > > Well, I for one can tell you that I'm having problems right now. My > uplink is going online and offline, pretty continuously. I have to wait > for an online time slice before I send anything. > > > > ttfn > > > > John > > LX > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 02:36, John Wilson wrote: > On October 23, 2003 07:17 pm, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: > > I just heard on Fox news that a pseudo-solar flare has erupted on the > > sun, and we now have a massive wave of electromagnetic energy and > > particles headed our way. It's due to hit tommorrow. No kidding. > > > > Supposedly the max rating for such a storm is "G5", this storm is > > supposed to be "G3" or so. Satellite communications might be disrupted > > and they say cell phone communications are at risk as well. Anything > > that's wireless may be affected. I will probably definitely be affected > > since my internet connection is satellite uplink. > > > > Anyways, watch out for voltage spikes and stuff like that. > > > > > > LX > > > Dunno what Fox was on about but you can no more get a voltage spike from solar > flares than you can from making tea. :-) Sorry, but you are wrong on that. Historically solar flares have played havoc with *both* telecommunications and power grids. FYI: http://www.star.ucl.ac.uk/~idh/STROBEL/starsun/strsuna.htm "Solar flares are eruptions more powerful than surge prominences. They will last only few minutes to a few hours. A lot of ionized material is ejected in a flare. Unlike the material in prominences, the solar flare material moves with enough energy to escape the Sun's gravity. When this burst of ions reaches the Earth, it interferes with radio communication. Sometimes a solar flare will cause voltage pulses or surges in power and telephone lines. Brownouts or blackouts may result. Humans travelling outside the protection of the Earth's magnetic field will need to have shielding from the powerful ions in a flare." > > What you do get is messed up satellite communications and the probability of > all communications running through the air of messing up at some high point > and at some frequency levels. As cell phones operate in a vulnerable > frequency range it's a good bet. > > There is every possibility, depending on the severity of the storm that some > broadcast fequencies will be messed up as well. Things like Short Wave, for > example. > > AC voltage operates at the relatively sluggish rate of 60Hz, far below the > 1 GHz and higher range that these things generally affect. > > What those like Femme may be able to see is a spectacular display of the > Northern Lights, assuming it's a clear night. Sadly, I won't see much. Too > much light from the city and far too many large mountains in the way. :) > > For those of us in the telecom biz it means we get to cover a monsterous > number of sins of ommission and commission by blaming it all on the sun. :-) > Heh. A golden opportunity. :) Well, I for one can tell you that I'm having problems right now. My uplink is going online and offline, pretty continuously. I have to wait for an online time slice before I send anything. > ttfn > > John LX -- °°° Linux Mandrake 9.1 Kernel 2.4.21-0.13mdk *Catch Star Trek Enterprise, Wednesdays on UPN* Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
On October 24, 2003 12:43 am, KevinO wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > John Wilson wrote: > > Dunno what Fox was on about but you can no more get a voltage spike from > > solar flares than you can from making tea. :-) > > The 6 million customers of the Hydro-Quebec power system in Canada that > lost their power in March of 1989 would tell you otherwise. > > (Too much DC current and/or voltage can damage a 60Hz system) > > - -- > KevinO > > If Microsoft built cars, If you were involved in a crash, you would have > no idea what happened. > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQE/mNg9WOfRC7Rnmv8RAss6AJ9JqHtB4V0ujuRegQ/amv2JNUeaVQCdGodi > XzLqfItujd/7aJ+W5TFWRmw= > =p3Yo > -END PGP SIGNATURE- Actually, this clobbered source dams and generating stations in the north of Quebec which cascaded south. I do agree that too much DC will damage AC though the direct cause was too much DC on generated power at the speed of the turbines before being stepped down. (It might have been the step down that was messed up, I really can't remember.) Either way, the odds of a DC spike getting by the transformers on the pole and down the drop are slight. It's more likely to blow the transformer up. :-) One of the reasons that Hydro Quebec wasn't affected by this summer's blackout is the steps they took to avoid another incident like this. Thanks for the correction. :-) ttfn John Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
I was trying to keep it simple, so it was understandable by those without any RF experience. As for AMSAT most uplinks are now above 430 MHz, and those with downlinks below 430MHz are old/obsolete ie AO10. If you want to take it further , either off list , or on air or if you must echolink Richard G8JVM On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 11:27, KevinO wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Richard Bown wrote: > > Time to stick my oar in ! > > > > A few facts as satellite coms are above 1 GHz, there will be no effect > > on them > > > In a large solar event that was pointing directly 'at' us, it could destroy > satellites and kill astronauts but these are both unlikely. > > Satellites can malfunction during these events. Not all satellite coms are at > 1Gc or higher, although most are much higher. (Often 14Gc or so going up, and > around 12 Gc coming back down) The trend in newer satellites is toward higher > freqs. but we still have a lot of stuff up there talking to us on the VHF and > UHF bands. There are freqs in use in both the 2m (144Mc) and 70cm (440Mc) > bands and radios being sold to work them : > http://www.icomamerica.com/amateur/satellite/index.html > > You are probably refering to the commercial, communications satellites and I > don't know all of the link frequencies for these but I think you are right > about these being > 1Gc. > > > > I'll explain why > > > > the increase in magnetic flux caused by a solar flare has several effect > > 1. it changes the properties of the ionosphere, which short wave comms > > relies on , hence the short wave black out. > It increases the level of ionization and reduces the heights of the layers of > the ionosphere. This reduces the skip-distance for frequencies below the MUF > (maximum freq. that is reflected back from the sky, dependent on the angle of > incidence of the signal with respect to the layer) and increases the MUF. > > Lower amatuer bands ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]) that > can normally be worked > for long distances suddenly can't be since the layer that you are trying to > reflect off is much lower, the skip distance shorter, the number of hops to > get somewhere is higher so the loss gets higher. The noise level goes up also. > > 28Mc is good for local work only more of the time, under 'normal' conditions, > than otherwise. When solar activity is (moderately) higher things change and > 28Mc can be used for some impressively long distances. (I've worked Australia > from the US using about 100W SSB and a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna) When > 'the skip is rolling' on the 27Mc CB band in the US local comm can become > almost impossible, because of the noise level from distant stations booming > in. It can take you more power to talk 5 or 10 miles than it does to talk > thousands of miles. I've worked clear across the country with only 4 watts... > > > AM based transmission are very susceptible to this this includes TV > > transmissions.. > This visual portion of the TV signal is AM, the audio is FM. All of the parts > of a given TV signal fit within a 6Mc wide band of frequencies. (US channel 6 > is 82Mc-88Mc) > > The frequency of the signal makes a much bigger difference in this case than > the type of modulation. The AM broadcast band is 0.55Mc to 1.7Mc. The FM > broadcast band is 88Mc to 108Mc. The 'AM' band is always reflected by the > ionosphere, the 'FM' band only during very unusual conditions. > > and AM radio. > > FM transmissions are less susceptible but are still effected. > > As the amont of doppler shift is randomised the tonal quality of speech > > on a AM transmission will sound like a whisper. > > TV pictures will be effected but not dramatically. > TV stations, normally well out of range, may be received. This is generally a > short-term effect though. > > > As for mobile phones, no effect as these are all short range comms and > > are all above 800MHz and use either gMSK or WBCDMA. > The telco's depend on leased satellite services to tie their sites and > networks together. Skytel's service was wiped out for a day or so a while > back, because of satellite problems. Local services can get disrupted by > unusually high noise levels also. > > > Right time to stop boring the list > I agree with you on this one also... at least we aren't talking about winders(tm). > > - -- > KevinO > > If Microsoft built cars, If you were involved in a crash, you would have > no idea what happened. > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQE/mP59WOfRC7Rnmv8RAgjkAJ9bnnYbtpOh8EqNYTugmq/95kWIsQCeNvB4 > 1w5EpIqpL0IsLqvmea87Qnw= > =8osT > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > > > __ > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- Richard Bown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Want to buy your Pack
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 HaywireMac wrote: > On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 02:14:59 -0700 > KevinO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > >>It is all relative anyway :-p > > > I was gonna use that one, but I thought I'd leave it for someone else > ;-) > Thanks! - -- KevinO If Microsoft built cars, If you were involved in a crash, you would have no idea what happened. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/mP7eWOfRC7Rnmv8RAmdcAJ97SYatQiduPYw4Zsasl0I9c3D+fwCfY6B6 TmL17npzy0nvNqLE9yJqhVI= =sxVJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Richard Bown wrote: > Time to stick my oar in ! > > A few facts as satellite coms are above 1 GHz, there will be no effect > on them > In a large solar event that was pointing directly 'at' us, it could destroy satellites and kill astronauts but these are both unlikely. Satellites can malfunction during these events. Not all satellite coms are at 1Gc or higher, although most are much higher. (Often 14Gc or so going up, and around 12 Gc coming back down) The trend in newer satellites is toward higher freqs. but we still have a lot of stuff up there talking to us on the VHF and UHF bands. There are freqs in use in both the 2m (144Mc) and 70cm (440Mc) bands and radios being sold to work them : http://www.icomamerica.com/amateur/satellite/index.html You are probably refering to the commercial, communications satellites and I don't know all of the link frequencies for these but I think you are right about these being > 1Gc. > I'll explain why > > the increase in magnetic flux caused by a solar flare has several effect > 1. it changes the properties of the ionosphere, which short wave comms > relies on , hence the short wave black out. It increases the level of ionization and reduces the heights of the layers of the ionosphere. This reduces the skip-distance for frequencies below the MUF (maximum freq. that is reflected back from the sky, dependent on the angle of incidence of the signal with respect to the layer) and increases the MUF. Lower amatuer bands ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]) that can normally be worked for long distances suddenly can't be since the layer that you are trying to reflect off is much lower, the skip distance shorter, the number of hops to get somewhere is higher so the loss gets higher. The noise level goes up also. 28Mc is good for local work only more of the time, under 'normal' conditions, than otherwise. When solar activity is (moderately) higher things change and 28Mc can be used for some impressively long distances. (I've worked Australia from the US using about 100W SSB and a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna) When 'the skip is rolling' on the 27Mc CB band in the US local comm can become almost impossible, because of the noise level from distant stations booming in. It can take you more power to talk 5 or 10 miles than it does to talk thousands of miles. I've worked clear across the country with only 4 watts... > AM based transmission are very susceptible to this this includes TV > transmissions.. This visual portion of the TV signal is AM, the audio is FM. All of the parts of a given TV signal fit within a 6Mc wide band of frequencies. (US channel 6 is 82Mc-88Mc) The frequency of the signal makes a much bigger difference in this case than the type of modulation. The AM broadcast band is 0.55Mc to 1.7Mc. The FM broadcast band is 88Mc to 108Mc. The 'AM' band is always reflected by the ionosphere, the 'FM' band only during very unusual conditions. and AM radio. > FM transmissions are less susceptible but are still effected. > As the amont of doppler shift is randomised the tonal quality of speech > on a AM transmission will sound like a whisper. > TV pictures will be effected but not dramatically. TV stations, normally well out of range, may be received. This is generally a short-term effect though. > As for mobile phones, no effect as these are all short range comms and > are all above 800MHz and use either gMSK or WBCDMA. The telco's depend on leased satellite services to tie their sites and networks together. Skytel's service was wiped out for a day or so a while back, because of satellite problems. Local services can get disrupted by unusually high noise levels also. > Right time to stop boring the list I agree with you on this one also... at least we aren't talking about winders(tm). - -- KevinO If Microsoft built cars, If you were involved in a crash, you would have no idea what happened. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/mP59WOfRC7Rnmv8RAgjkAJ9bnnYbtpOh8EqNYTugmq/95kWIsQCeNvB4 1w5EpIqpL0IsLqvmea87Qnw= =8osT -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 02:14:59 -0700 KevinO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > It is all relative anyway :-p I was gonna use that one, but I thought I'd leave it for someone else ;-) Anyhow, it does turn out we have a case of mismatched terminology here, the *charged particles* in the solar wind can take days to reach the Earth, whereas, of course, the actual EM radiation only takes minutes. It is the storm of charged particles which wreaks havoc with telecom and electrical systems here on the rock, the EM I'm not sure about, gotta do more reading on that. -- HaywireMac ++ ICQ # 279518458 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Man's reach must exceed his grasp, for why else the heavens? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
Time to stick my oar in ! A few facts as satellite coms are above 1 GHz, there will be no effect on them I'll explain why the increase in magnetic flux caused by a solar flare has several effect 1. it changes the properties of the ionosphere, which short wave comms relies on , hence the short wave black out. 2. It increases to chance of a low latitude radio aurora. A radio aurora will cause disruption due to the reflective properties of the plasma curtain. Frequencies up to 1GHz can be reflected off these, or if the curtain is between the receiver and the transmitter the signal will become very distorted. A reflected signal on its own can be coped with, but a reflected signal off the auroral curtain will introduce doppler shift. As the curtain is not solid , but of charged particles and moving the rate of doppler shift is not constant and becomes the sum of all the shifts. AM based transmission are very susceptible to this this includes TV transmissions and AM radio. FM transmissions are less susceptible but are still effected. As the amont of doppler shift is randomised the tonal quality of speech on a AM transmission will sound like a whisper. TV pictures will be effected but not dramatically. As for mobile phones, no effect as these are all short range comms and are all above 800MHz and use either gMSK or WBCDMA. Right time to stop boring the list Richard On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 09:48, Seak, Teng-Fong wrote: > KevinO wrote: > > >-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > >Hash: SHA1 > > > >Seak, Teng-Fong wrote: > > > > > >> "By tomorrow" means 24 October? Strange that EM wave from the Sun > >>would take days to reach the Earth instead of 8 minutes :-D > >> > >> > >It is not the electromagnetic radiation that causes the major problems. It is > >the changed particles that make up the solar wind, which may be 'gusting'. > > > But Lyvim wrote "... we now have a massive wave of _electromagnetic_ > energy and > particles headed our way. It's due to hit tommorrow." And even > particles, they are usually relativistic, which means they would take at > most hours but not days to reach us. > > On the other hand, it's rather EM wave which is more harmful to > satellites rather than particulars because charged particles are mostly > deviated by terrestrial magnetic field whereas em wave is unaffected. > > > > __ > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- Richard Bown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 HaywireMac wrote: > Well, the Sun is being considerate this time and slowing down "c" for > us. > Yeh, I guess it is smiling at us after spitting in our general direction ;-) It is all relative anyway :-p - -- KevinO If Microsoft built cars, If you were involved in a crash, you would have no idea what happened. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/mO2RWOfRC7Rnmv8RAnXXAJ0dLRg1HJHuhTyH780BVqj3C27lywCfcex6 BsQWdwZLLC6iu1/HH3F5xNY= =Zf0s -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:11:03 +0200 "Seak, Teng-Fong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > "By tomorrow" means 24 October? Strange that EM wave from the Sun > > would take days to reach the Earth instead of 8 minutes :-D Well, the Sun is being considerate this time and slowing down "c" for us. -- HaywireMac ++ ICQ # 279518458 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Nasrudin walked into a teahouse and declaimed, "The moon is more useful than the sun." "Why?", he was asked. "Because at night we need the light more." Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Seak, Teng-Fong wrote: >On the other hand, it's rather EM wave which is more harmful to > satellites rather than particulars because charged particles are mostly > deviated by terrestrial magnetic field whereas em wave is unaffected. > > A great source for information about this is: www.spaceweather.com - -- KevinO If Microsoft built cars, If you were involved in a crash, you would have no idea what happened. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/mOtSWOfRC7Rnmv8RAgg3AJ9O0GBbSpPbk49FsubX3k2DYr1tIQCZAVsU xdVtgwt8P0e8l8xkI2aHPi4= =PMsm -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
these are the logged wwv values for the last 24 hrs. comms below 30 MHz are short range at the moment. The A index indicates a large aurora is imminent. DateHour SFI A K Forecast 24-Oct-2003 06 183 10 2 R=122 Str,R3=>Str,G3,R1 24-Oct-2003 03 183 10 0 R=122 Str,R3=>Str,G3,R1 24-Oct-2003 00 183 10 2 R=117 Str,G3,R1=>Str,G3,R2 23-Oct-2003 21 183 11 3 Strong R3 / Minor G1 R1 23-Oct-2003 21 183 0 3 R=117 Str,R3=>Min,G1,R1 24-Oct-2003 0848Z > I'll make no comment on power line surges Richard On Fri, 2003-10-24 at 09:18, KevinO wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Seak, Teng-Fong wrote: > >"By tomorrow" means 24 October? Strange that EM wave from the Sun > > would take days to reach the Earth instead of 8 minutes :-D > > > It is not the electromagnetic radiation that causes the major problems. It is > the changed particles that make up the solar wind, which may be 'gusting'. > > - -- > KevinO > > If Microsoft built cars, If you were involved in a crash, you would have > no idea what happened. > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQE/mOBdWOfRC7Rnmv8RAsFmAJ9JfDGfjY2uxvBITcuo2PJVk/6tvgCfTSjl > 8/HpJmazzx3Ha5pGkQFBiXo= > =oN9A > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > > > __ > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- Richard Bown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
KevinO wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Seak, Teng-Fong wrote: "By tomorrow" means 24 October? Strange that EM wave from the Sun would take days to reach the Earth instead of 8 minutes :-D It is not the electromagnetic radiation that causes the major problems. It is the changed particles that make up the solar wind, which may be 'gusting'. But Lyvim wrote "... we now have a massive wave of _electromagnetic_ energy and particles headed our way. It's due to hit tommorrow." And even particles, they are usually relativistic, which means they would take at most hours but not days to reach us. On the other hand, it's rather EM wave which is more harmful to satellites rather than particulars because charged particles are mostly deviated by terrestrial magnetic field whereas em wave is unaffected. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Seak, Teng-Fong wrote: >"By tomorrow" means 24 October? Strange that EM wave from the Sun > would take days to reach the Earth instead of 8 minutes :-D > It is not the electromagnetic radiation that causes the major problems. It is the changed particles that make up the solar wind, which may be 'gusting'. - -- KevinO If Microsoft built cars, If you were involved in a crash, you would have no idea what happened. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/mOBdWOfRC7Rnmv8RAsFmAJ9JfDGfjY2uxvBITcuo2PJVk/6tvgCfTSjl 8/HpJmazzx3Ha5pGkQFBiXo= =oN9A -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
"By tomorrow" means 24 October? Strange that EM wave from the Sun would take days to reach the Earth instead of 8 minutes :-D John Wilson wrote: On October 23, 2003 07:17 pm, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: I just heard on Fox news that a pseudo-solar flare has erupted on the sun, and we now have a massive wave of electromagnetic energy and particles headed our way. It's due to hit tommorrow. No kidding. Supposedly the max rating for such a storm is "G5", this storm is supposed to be "G3" or so. Satellite communications might be disrupted and they say cell phone communications are at risk as well. Anything that's wireless may be affected. I will probably definitely be affected since my internet connection is satellite uplink. Anyways, watch out for voltage spikes and stuff like that. LX Dunno what Fox was on about but you can no more get a voltage spike from solar flares than you can from making tea. :-) What you do get is messed up satellite communications and the probability of all communications running through the air of messing up at some high point and at some frequency levels. As cell phones operate in a vulnerable frequency range it's a good bet. There is every possibility, depending on the severity of the storm that some broadcast fequencies will be messed up as well. Things like Short Wave, for example. AC voltage operates at the relatively sluggish rate of 60Hz, far below the 1 GHz and higher range that these things generally affect. What those like Femme may be able to see is a spectacular display of the Northern Lights, assuming it's a clear night. Sadly, I won't see much. Too much light from the city and far too many large mountains in the way. :) For those of us in the telecom biz it means we get to cover a monsterous number of sins of ommission and commission by blaming it all on the sun. :-) ttfn John Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 John Wilson wrote: > Dunno what Fox was on about but you can no more get a voltage spike from solar > flares than you can from making tea. :-) > The 6 million customers of the Hydro-Quebec power system in Canada that lost their power in March of 1989 would tell you otherwise. (Too much DC current and/or voltage can damage a 60Hz system) - -- KevinO If Microsoft built cars, If you were involved in a crash, you would have no idea what happened. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/mNg9WOfRC7Rnmv8RAss6AJ9JqHtB4V0ujuRegQ/amv2JNUeaVQCdGodi XzLqfItujd/7aJ+W5TFWRmw= =p3Yo -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Geomagnetic storm alert
On October 23, 2003 07:17 pm, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: > I just heard on Fox news that a pseudo-solar flare has erupted on the > sun, and we now have a massive wave of electromagnetic energy and > particles headed our way. It's due to hit tommorrow. No kidding. > > Supposedly the max rating for such a storm is "G5", this storm is > supposed to be "G3" or so. Satellite communications might be disrupted > and they say cell phone communications are at risk as well. Anything > that's wireless may be affected. I will probably definitely be affected > since my internet connection is satellite uplink. > > Anyways, watch out for voltage spikes and stuff like that. > > > LX Dunno what Fox was on about but you can no more get a voltage spike from solar flares than you can from making tea. :-) What you do get is messed up satellite communications and the probability of all communications running through the air of messing up at some high point and at some frequency levels. As cell phones operate in a vulnerable frequency range it's a good bet. There is every possibility, depending on the severity of the storm that some broadcast fequencies will be messed up as well. Things like Short Wave, for example. AC voltage operates at the relatively sluggish rate of 60Hz, far below the 1 GHz and higher range that these things generally affect. What those like Femme may be able to see is a spectacular display of the Northern Lights, assuming it's a clear night. Sadly, I won't see much. Too much light from the city and far too many large mountains in the way. :) For those of us in the telecom biz it means we get to cover a monsterous number of sins of ommission and commission by blaming it all on the sun. :-) ttfn John Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
