Re: [expert] upgrade woes

2002-07-10 Thread Todd Lyons

I will start this reply with the following sweeping statement:
If you buy hardware that's so new that kernel support is only just
appearing, then you should expect some things not to work to full
potential in a distro that's now 4 months old (and counting).

You obviously are very experienced with Linux in general, so I don't
intend this to be condescending, but it's good dialogue for others who
might want to provide perspective.

Darren King wrote on Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 09:42:45AM +1000 :

 I just upgraded my machine from a k6-2 400 with a super 7 board to a
 ahtlon 1700xp with a kt333 board and now my system is mucho unstable. 

Familiar with that one.  Go look in /proc/ide/via and make sure that
it's getting the full transfer rate on your drives.  If not, the answer
will probably be in /proc/ide/hda/settings.  Look at the following
edited output:
[root@fiji /home/todd/RPM/SPECS]# cat /proc/ide/hda/settings 
name   value   min maxmode
   -   --- ---
ide_scsi   0   0   1  rw
io_32bit   1   0   3  rw
pio_mode   write-only  0   255w
slow   0   0   1  rw
using_dma  1   0   1  rw

The absolute most important one in is the last line.  If you have
using_dma showing up as zero, that means that the kernel doesn't
recognize your IDE Chipset as an IDE chipset that's capable of doing
UDMA modes, so it just treats it like regular IDE.  Another way to tell
this is using hdparm -t /dev/hda (use whatever device letter is required
for your system).  The only solution is to get a newer kernel.  In
Mandrake, your only real option is to install a Cooker kernel.

 It's gotten to the point where I am very frustrated with Mandrake and
 even wondering about how good Linux really is.  After years (I started
 before the kernel was up to 1.0) of supporting Linux, I have watched
 windows become easier to use and more stable.  Windows XP installs new
 drivers for me without even asking me for anything.  It just works.  But
 I love the power of Linux and the applications.
 
 Here's the list of my problems.
 
 1. When I shutdown, it goes through the normal routine and then tells me
 to power the machine down.  Before the upgrade, it would power down the
 machine for menow I have manually use the power button.

Try a Cooker kernel.  Get it from the Cooker mirrors.

 2. No sound.  I am still working on this one.  sndconfig is useless.  It
 finds my sound card and then tries to play a sound.  It cant so it just
 hangs there and I never get to actually configure the sound  card to fix
 the problem.  That's pretty pathetic for a real osthe config tool
 wont config!

Try a Cooker kernel.  Get it from the Cooker mirrors.  The sound
configuration utilties in 8.2 are 4 months old now, so you'll have to
configure it by hand.  Try both OSS and ALSA.

 3. CD burning on my scsi plextor is now very unstable.  I have to burn
 at 1x or the burn fails.  The burner is the only device in the scsi
 chain.  The scsi card is sharing an IRQ  with 2 ethernet cards and the
 sound card but of source I cant configure the sound card (see above) to
 change the IRQ.

Install the updates that are on the update mirrors.  The version of
cdrecord that shipped with 8.2 had a problem that is fixed in the
updates.

 These are not the problems users should put up with from a real
 operating system.   This is mickey mouse stuff.  Like I said before, I
 run windows XP on my other system...I add new hardware, it configures it
 for me, no problem.  I don't mind configuring hardware myself but as you
 can see above, I would if I could.

I do agree that it just works applies in many cases with Windows.  If
we could get those same manufacturers to either write their own open
source support for their products just like the windows drivers they do
write OR provide the specs to the hardware and let the community write
the drivers.  Usually it has to be reverse engineered.

 In conclusion, I think the lesson learned here is:
 When upgrading major hardware components such as motherboards, REINSTALL
 the operating system.  It's sad but at least with Mandrake 8.2, it's
 true.

And are you claiming this is not true for Windows?  It is, so why are
you listing that as a detraction for Linux and not for Windows?

Second, you do not need to reinstall the OS, you need only rerun your
configuration programs.  I can't login because I have a different
graphic card is not wholly accurate.  Use lilo to boot to runlevel 3 or
runlevel 1 and run your configuration utilities (or use failsafe).

Blue skies...   Todd
-- 
  Todd Lyons -- MandrakeSoft, Inc.   http://www.mandrakesoft.com/
UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because 
  that would also 

Re: [expert] upgrade woes

2002-07-10 Thread Darren King

Thanks for the reply Todd.  Is the cooker kernel going to break anything
else in my system?  Will all my apps and stuff work?  I have always been
wary of running a cooker kernel.  Can you shed any light here?

Darren

On Thu, 2002-07-11 at 10:06, Todd Lyons wrote:
 I will start this reply with the following sweeping statement:
 If you buy hardware that's so new that kernel support is only just
 appearing, then you should expect some things not to work to full
 potential in a distro that's now 4 months old (and counting).
 
 You obviously are very experienced with Linux in general, so I don't
 intend this to be condescending, but it's good dialogue for others who
 might want to provide perspective.
 
 Darren King wrote on Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 09:42:45AM +1000 :
 
  I just upgraded my machine from a k6-2 400 with a super 7 board to a
  ahtlon 1700xp with a kt333 board and now my system is mucho unstable. 
 
 Familiar with that one.  Go look in /proc/ide/via and make sure that
 it's getting the full transfer rate on your drives.  If not, the answer
 will probably be in /proc/ide/hda/settings.  Look at the following
 edited output:
 [root@fiji /home/todd/RPM/SPECS]# cat /proc/ide/hda/settings 
 name   value   min maxmode
    -   --- ---
 ide_scsi   0   0   1  rw
 io_32bit   1   0   3  rw
 pio_mode   write-only  0   255w
 slow   0   0   1  rw
 using_dma  1   0   1  rw
 
 The absolute most important one in is the last line.  If you have
 using_dma showing up as zero, that means that the kernel doesn't
 recognize your IDE Chipset as an IDE chipset that's capable of doing
 UDMA modes, so it just treats it like regular IDE.  Another way to tell
 this is using hdparm -t /dev/hda (use whatever device letter is required
 for your system).  The only solution is to get a newer kernel.  In
 Mandrake, your only real option is to install a Cooker kernel.
 
  It's gotten to the point where I am very frustrated with Mandrake and
  even wondering about how good Linux really is.  After years (I started
  before the kernel was up to 1.0) of supporting Linux, I have watched
  windows become easier to use and more stable.  Windows XP installs new
  drivers for me without even asking me for anything.  It just works.  But
  I love the power of Linux and the applications.
  
  Here's the list of my problems.
  
  1. When I shutdown, it goes through the normal routine and then tells me
  to power the machine down.  Before the upgrade, it would power down the
  machine for menow I have manually use the power button.
 
 Try a Cooker kernel.  Get it from the Cooker mirrors.
 
  2. No sound.  I am still working on this one.  sndconfig is useless.  It
  finds my sound card and then tries to play a sound.  It cant so it just
  hangs there and I never get to actually configure the sound  card to fix
  the problem.  That's pretty pathetic for a real osthe config tool
  wont config!
 
 Try a Cooker kernel.  Get it from the Cooker mirrors.  The sound
 configuration utilties in 8.2 are 4 months old now, so you'll have to
 configure it by hand.  Try both OSS and ALSA.
 
  3. CD burning on my scsi plextor is now very unstable.  I have to burn
  at 1x or the burn fails.  The burner is the only device in the scsi
  chain.  The scsi card is sharing an IRQ  with 2 ethernet cards and the
  sound card but of source I cant configure the sound card (see above) to
  change the IRQ.
 
 Install the updates that are on the update mirrors.  The version of
 cdrecord that shipped with 8.2 had a problem that is fixed in the
 updates.
 
  These are not the problems users should put up with from a real
  operating system.   This is mickey mouse stuff.  Like I said before, I
  run windows XP on my other system...I add new hardware, it configures it
  for me, no problem.  I don't mind configuring hardware myself but as you
  can see above, I would if I could.
 
 I do agree that it just works applies in many cases with Windows.  If
 we could get those same manufacturers to either write their own open
 source support for their products just like the windows drivers they do
 write OR provide the specs to the hardware and let the community write
 the drivers.  Usually it has to be reverse engineered.
 
  In conclusion, I think the lesson learned here is:
  When upgrading major hardware components such as motherboards, REINSTALL
  the operating system.  It's sad but at least with Mandrake 8.2, it's
  true.
 
 And are you claiming this is not true for Windows?  It is, so why are
 you listing that as a detraction for Linux and not for Windows?
 
 Second, you do not need to reinstall the OS, you need only rerun your
 configuration programs.  I can't 

Re: [expert] upgrade woes

2002-07-10 Thread Todd Lyons

Darren King wrote on Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 10:35:03AM +1000 :
 Thanks for the reply Todd.  Is the cooker kernel going to break anything
 else in my system?  Will all my apps and stuff work?  I have always been
 wary of running a cooker kernel.  Can you shed any light here?

If there's anything going to break, it will be experimental features
that have been added to the kernel recently.  The one thing that I'm
most curious about (sounds like I should be on the Simpsons) is that of
the current supermount status.  Let me know how things work for you.

BTW, does the current kernel see dma capability in your IDE chipset?

Blue skies...   Todd
-- 
  Todd Lyons -- MandrakeSoft, Inc.   http://www.mandrakesoft.com/
UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because 
  that would also stop you from doing clever things. -- Doug Gwyn
   Cooker Version mandrake-release-8.3-0.2mdk Kernel 2.4.18-21mdk



msg56188/pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: [expert] upgrade woes

2002-07-10 Thread Darren King

Nopethat's currently at 0.  Wierd.  Looking through the dmesg
output, I see that the kernel has flagged my chipset as KT133, not KT333
as it should be.

I should be able to install the new cooker kernel separately right?  so
I can choose what kernel I want to boot?

Darren

On Thu, 2002-07-11 at 10:40, Todd Lyons wrote:
 Darren King wrote on Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 10:35:03AM +1000 :
  Thanks for the reply Todd.  Is the cooker kernel going to break anything
  else in my system?  Will all my apps and stuff work?  I have always been
  wary of running a cooker kernel.  Can you shed any light here?
 
 If there's anything going to break, it will be experimental features
 that have been added to the kernel recently.  The one thing that I'm
 most curious about (sounds like I should be on the Simpsons) is that of
 the current supermount status.  Let me know how things work for you.
 
 BTW, does the current kernel see dma capability in your IDE chipset?
 
 Blue skies... Todd
 -- 
   Todd Lyons -- MandrakeSoft, Inc.   http://www.mandrakesoft.com/
 UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because 
   that would also stop you from doing clever things. -- Doug Gwyn
Cooker Version mandrake-release-8.3-0.2mdk Kernel 2.4.18-21mdk





Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? 
Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com



Re: [expert] upgrade woes

2002-07-10 Thread Todd Lyons

Darren King wrote on Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 11:33:48AM +1000 :
 Nopethat's currently at 0.  Wierd.  Looking through the dmesg
 output, I see that the kernel has flagged my chipset as KT133, not KT333
 as it should be.

No DMA = slow slow slow.  Will feel very unresponsive under high disk 
I/O.  Will result in horrible system performance and high load averages
(because the kernel is waiting on the hardware to say I'm finished
writing all that data that you gave to me).

 I should be able to install the new cooker kernel separately right?  so
 I can choose what kernel I want to boot?

Yes.  Install it, *NOT* upgrade it.  

But: (there's always a but)

soapbox
The kernel should be the only package you try this with.  In other
words, don't download the latest Mozilla or Samba package from Cooker
and expect it to work.  It won't.  Cooker is using a different version
of gcc which results in different libstdc++ libs which means none of
your graphical apps will work.  Some of the text based ones *might*, but
I'm telling you and everybody else now:  Don't do it.  You're creating
so much heartache for yourself that it defies explanation why we, even
as sadistic as we are, would do such a thing.
/soapbox

Blue skies...   Todd
-- 
  Todd Lyons -- MandrakeSoft, Inc.   http://www.mandrakesoft.com/
UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because 
  that would also stop you from doing clever things. -- Doug Gwyn
   Cooker Version mandrake-release-8.3-0.2mdk Kernel 2.4.18-21mdk



msg56195/pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: [expert] upgrade woes

2002-07-10 Thread Chuck Lalli


- Original Message -
From: Darren King [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: mandrake list [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 7:42 PM
Subject: [expert] upgrade woes


 I just upgraded my machine from a k6-2 400 with a super 7 board to a
 ahtlon 1700xp with a kt333 board and now my system is mucho unstable.

I wish I only had an unstable system.  I could not boot at all after a very
similar upgrade.  I installed 8.0 on an unused partition but cannot use my
usb mouse.  I reinstalled with the recent (06/06/02) cooker isos and cannot
boot at all.  I get errors about block-major-3 (ide drive) and char-major-13
(mouse I think).  It suggests that I boot with kernel option init= but I
don't know what that means.

As you can tell, I can run my WinXP partiton.  :(

Chuck




Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? 
Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com