Re: [Factor-talk] Managing many vocabularies
Hi John and Alexander, Thanks for the very useful advice. I prefer not to use DEFER: (pun intended), but if it turns out to be the best solution I will. Best regards, Leon Konings Quoting John Benediktsson mrj...@gmail.com: Alex has good advice. In addition, if you have a circularity inside a single vocab, the DEFER: mechanism allows something like this to be resolved properly: DEFER: bar : foo ( -- x ) bar ; : bar ( -- x ) 12 ; Usually circularities between vocabs can be resolved by using a central vocabulary or a hierarchy to place the word in a commonly used location. If you are having difficulties still, you can use a HOOK: to define a word that dispatches based on the value of a namespace variable. For more details, see: http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-HOOK__colon__,syntax.html Best, John. On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 8:09 PM, Alexander J. Vondrak ajvond...@csupomona.edu wrote: Finding circularities: maybe something like https://gist.github.com/4158963? Though it's not the smartest thing around (just because there's a vocab circularity doesn't mean there will necessarily be an issue with a word definition). Avoiding circularities is really an engineering thing... Fixing circularities is trickier, and it'll generally vary case-by-case. Check out http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-deferred.html, perhaps? Good luck, --Alex Vondrak From: Leon Konings [fac...@koningssoftware.com] Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:29 AM To: factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Factor-talk] Managing many vocabularies Hi Alexander, Thank you for your very long answer. You where guessing right about the circular dependencies. Because there are so many vocabularies, problems like that happen rather often. I am really looking for better and faster ways to find these, and a way of working that make it less likely that they happen. Best regards, Leon Quoting Alexander J. Vondrak ajvond...@csupomona.edu: I'm not really sure if there was a question in there... Loading all the vocabularies, which all load many other vocabularies, is not easy to do. If you're just sitting down at your editor, typing vocab names into the `USING:` line, then yeah, it's going to be difficult to know exactly which vocabs you're supposed to specify. That's why you use the listener. Say I'm working on a file, factor/work/blah/blah.factor. While I'm jotting down some code, I either don't know what I need in the `USING:` or forget to put something in there. USING: ; ! ??? Blah print From the listener, I type `USE: blah`, and I get a helpful error message. IN: scratchpad USE: blah Loading resource:work/blah/blah.factor 1: USE: blah ^ resource:work/blah/blah.factor 1: Blah print ^ No word named ?print? found in current vocabulary search path The following restarts are available: :1 Use the io vocabulary :2 Defer word in current vocabulary :3 Load resource:work/blah/blah.factor again Type :help for debugging help. It gives me several options to recover from this error, including a suggestion for which vocab to load to find the word `print` (note that this doesn't always work, if Factor can't find a particular word name in the current search path). In this case, I can type `:1` to use the `io` vocab. IN: scratchpad :1 resource:work/blah/blah.factor:1: Note: Added io vocabulary to search path Restarts were invoked adding vocabularies to the search path. To avoid doing this in the future, add the following forms at the top of the source file: USING: io ; Also, take a look at http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-images.html and http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-auto-use__que__%2Cparser.html I often have to solve problems with interdependencies. It is not easy to find the cause of these problems. What sort of problems? And what sort of interdependencies? Like vocabs depending on vocabs? I struggle to think of a problem with that, because the chain of dependencies shouldn't be an issue, unless there's a cycle. E.g., ! In a.factor USING: b ; IN: a : a-word ( -- ) b-word ; ! In b.factor USING: io ; IN: b : b-word ( -- ) Called b-word print ; ! At the listener IN: scratchpad USE: a Loading resource:work/a/a.factor Loading resource:work/b/b.factor IN: scratchpad a-word Called b-word Notice that a.factor doesn't need to have `USING: io`, even though b.factor does. So you don't need to think about anything beyond a file's immediate dependencies. I guess there would be an issue if you had a cyclic dependency, which needs to be resolved manually (or, more practically speaking, removed): ! In a.factor
Re: [Factor-talk] Managing many vocabularies
Finding circularities: maybe something like https://gist.github.com/4158963? Though it's not the smartest thing around (just because there's a vocab circularity doesn't mean there will necessarily be an issue with a word definition). Avoiding circularities is really an engineering thing... Fixing circularities is trickier, and it'll generally vary case-by-case. Check out http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-deferred.html, perhaps? Good luck, --Alex Vondrak From: Leon Konings [fac...@koningssoftware.com] Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:29 AM To: factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Factor-talk] Managing many vocabularies Hi Alexander, Thank you for your very long answer. You where guessing right about the circular dependencies. Because there are so many vocabularies, problems like that happen rather often. I am really looking for better and faster ways to find these, and a way of working that make it less likely that they happen. Best regards, Leon Quoting Alexander J. Vondrak ajvond...@csupomona.edu: I'm not really sure if there was a question in there... Loading all the vocabularies, which all load many other vocabularies, is not easy to do. If you're just sitting down at your editor, typing vocab names into the `USING:` line, then yeah, it's going to be difficult to know exactly which vocabs you're supposed to specify. That's why you use the listener. Say I'm working on a file, factor/work/blah/blah.factor. While I'm jotting down some code, I either don't know what I need in the `USING:` or forget to put something in there. USING: ; ! ??? Blah print From the listener, I type `USE: blah`, and I get a helpful error message. IN: scratchpad USE: blah Loading resource:work/blah/blah.factor 1: USE: blah ^ resource:work/blah/blah.factor 1: Blah print ^ No word named “print” found in current vocabulary search path The following restarts are available: :1 Use the io vocabulary :2 Defer word in current vocabulary :3 Load resource:work/blah/blah.factor again Type :help for debugging help. It gives me several options to recover from this error, including a suggestion for which vocab to load to find the word `print` (note that this doesn't always work, if Factor can't find a particular word name in the current search path). In this case, I can type `:1` to use the `io` vocab. IN: scratchpad :1 resource:work/blah/blah.factor:1: Note: Added io vocabulary to search path Restarts were invoked adding vocabularies to the search path. To avoid doing this in the future, add the following forms at the top of the source file: USING: io ; Also, take a look at http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-images.html and http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-auto-use__que__%2Cparser.html I often have to solve problems with interdependencies. It is not easy to find the cause of these problems. What sort of problems? And what sort of interdependencies? Like vocabs depending on vocabs? I struggle to think of a problem with that, because the chain of dependencies shouldn't be an issue, unless there's a cycle. E.g., ! In a.factor USING: b ; IN: a : a-word ( -- ) b-word ; ! In b.factor USING: io ; IN: b : b-word ( -- ) Called b-word print ; ! At the listener IN: scratchpad USE: a Loading resource:work/a/a.factor Loading resource:work/b/b.factor IN: scratchpad a-word Called b-word Notice that a.factor doesn't need to have `USING: io`, even though b.factor does. So you don't need to think about anything beyond a file's immediate dependencies. I guess there would be an issue if you had a cyclic dependency, which needs to be resolved manually (or, more practically speaking, removed): ! In a.factor USING: b io ; IN: a : a-word1 ( -- ) b-word ; : a-word2 ( -- ) Called a-word2 print ; ! In b.factor USING: a ; : b-word ( -- ) a-word2 ; ! At the listener IN: scratchpad USE: a Loading resource:work/a/a.factor Loading resource:work/b/b.factor 1: USE: a ^ resource:work/a/a.factor 1: USING: b io ; ^ resource:work/b/b.factor 4: : b-word ( -- ) a-word2 ; ^ No word named “a-word2” found in current vocabulary search path The following restarts are available: :1 Defer word in current vocabulary :2 Load resource:work/b/b.factor again :3 Load resource:work/a/a.factor again Type :help for debugging help. IN: scratchpad :3 Loading resource:work/a/a.factor Loading resource:work/b/b.factor Loading resource:work/a/a.factor IN: scratchpad a-word1 Called a-word2 Maybe by interdependencies you mean that vocabs can step on each others' toes? If two vocabs define different words with the same name
Re: [Factor-talk] Managing many vocabularies
Hi Alexander, Thank you for your very long answer. You where guessing right about the circular dependencies. Because there are so many vocabularies, problems like that happen rather often. I am really looking for better and faster ways to find these, and a way of working that make it less likely that they happen. Best regards, Leon Quoting Alexander J. Vondrak ajvond...@csupomona.edu: I'm not really sure if there was a question in there... Loading all the vocabularies, which all load many other vocabularies, is not easy to do. If you're just sitting down at your editor, typing vocab names into the `USING:` line, then yeah, it's going to be difficult to know exactly which vocabs you're supposed to specify. That's why you use the listener. Say I'm working on a file, factor/work/blah/blah.factor. While I'm jotting down some code, I either don't know what I need in the `USING:` or forget to put something in there. USING: ; ! ??? Blah print From the listener, I type `USE: blah`, and I get a helpful error message. IN: scratchpad USE: blah Loading resource:work/blah/blah.factor 1: USE: blah ^ resource:work/blah/blah.factor 1: Blah print ^ No word named “print” found in current vocabulary search path The following restarts are available: :1 Use the io vocabulary :2 Defer word in current vocabulary :3 Load resource:work/blah/blah.factor again Type :help for debugging help. It gives me several options to recover from this error, including a suggestion for which vocab to load to find the word `print` (note that this doesn't always work, if Factor can't find a particular word name in the current search path). In this case, I can type `:1` to use the `io` vocab. IN: scratchpad :1 resource:work/blah/blah.factor:1: Note: Added io vocabulary to search path Restarts were invoked adding vocabularies to the search path. To avoid doing this in the future, add the following forms at the top of the source file: USING: io ; Also, take a look at http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-images.html and http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-auto-use__que__%2Cparser.html I often have to solve problems with interdependencies. It is not easy to find the cause of these problems. What sort of problems? And what sort of interdependencies? Like vocabs depending on vocabs? I struggle to think of a problem with that, because the chain of dependencies shouldn't be an issue, unless there's a cycle. E.g., ! In a.factor USING: b ; IN: a : a-word ( -- ) b-word ; ! In b.factor USING: io ; IN: b : b-word ( -- ) Called b-word print ; ! At the listener IN: scratchpad USE: a Loading resource:work/a/a.factor Loading resource:work/b/b.factor IN: scratchpad a-word Called b-word Notice that a.factor doesn't need to have `USING: io`, even though b.factor does. So you don't need to think about anything beyond a file's immediate dependencies. I guess there would be an issue if you had a cyclic dependency, which needs to be resolved manually (or, more practically speaking, removed): ! In a.factor USING: b io ; IN: a : a-word1 ( -- ) b-word ; : a-word2 ( -- ) Called a-word2 print ; ! In b.factor USING: a ; : b-word ( -- ) a-word2 ; ! At the listener IN: scratchpad USE: a Loading resource:work/a/a.factor Loading resource:work/b/b.factor 1: USE: a ^ resource:work/a/a.factor 1: USING: b io ; ^ resource:work/b/b.factor 4: : b-word ( -- ) a-word2 ; ^ No word named “a-word2” found in current vocabulary search path The following restarts are available: :1 Defer word in current vocabulary :2 Load resource:work/b/b.factor again :3 Load resource:work/a/a.factor again Type :help for debugging help. IN: scratchpad :3 Loading resource:work/a/a.factor Loading resource:work/b/b.factor Loading resource:work/a/a.factor IN: scratchpad a-word1 Called a-word2 Maybe by interdependencies you mean that vocabs can step on each others' toes? If two vocabs define different words with the same name, there will be an ambiguity. To resolve, see http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-FROM__colon__,syntax.html In the developer tools I saw some interesting words for working with vocabularies. There might be a solution to my problem, if I use these tools, but I do not know where to start. Which interesting words? Sorry, I'm running out of psychic abilities. :) If you aren't sure what certain words do, it's helpful to browse through their documentation. Even if a word isn't quite what you want, there are usually related things you can click on, looking for related words until you stumble onto something useful. Hope any of that helps, --Alex Vondrak
[Factor-talk] Managing many vocabularies
Hi, I am working on a rather big project. Loading all the vocabularies, which all load many other vocabularies, is not easy to do. I often have to solve problems with interdependencies. It is not easy to find the cause of these problems. In the developer tools I saw some interesting words for working with vocabularies. There might be a solution to my problem, if I use these tools, but I do not know where to start. Best regards, Leon -- Monitor your physical, virtual and cloud infrastructure from a single web console. Get in-depth insight into apps, servers, databases, vmware, SAP, cloud infrastructure, etc. Download 30-day Free Trial. Pricing starts from $795 for 25 servers or applications! http://p.sf.net/sfu/zoho_dev2dev_nov ___ Factor-talk mailing list Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
Re: [Factor-talk] Managing many vocabularies
I'm not really sure if there was a question in there... Loading all the vocabularies, which all load many other vocabularies, is not easy to do. If you're just sitting down at your editor, typing vocab names into the `USING:` line, then yeah, it's going to be difficult to know exactly which vocabs you're supposed to specify. That's why you use the listener. Say I'm working on a file, factor/work/blah/blah.factor. While I'm jotting down some code, I either don't know what I need in the `USING:` or forget to put something in there. USING: ; ! ??? Blah print From the listener, I type `USE: blah`, and I get a helpful error message. IN: scratchpad USE: blah Loading resource:work/blah/blah.factor 1: USE: blah ^ resource:work/blah/blah.factor 1: Blah print ^ No word named “print” found in current vocabulary search path The following restarts are available: :1 Use the io vocabulary :2 Defer word in current vocabulary :3 Load resource:work/blah/blah.factor again Type :help for debugging help. It gives me several options to recover from this error, including a suggestion for which vocab to load to find the word `print` (note that this doesn't always work, if Factor can't find a particular word name in the current search path). In this case, I can type `:1` to use the `io` vocab. IN: scratchpad :1 resource:work/blah/blah.factor:1: Note: Added io vocabulary to search path Restarts were invoked adding vocabularies to the search path. To avoid doing this in the future, add the following forms at the top of the source file: USING: io ; Also, take a look at http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-images.html and http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-auto-use__que__%2Cparser.html I often have to solve problems with interdependencies. It is not easy to find the cause of these problems. What sort of problems? And what sort of interdependencies? Like vocabs depending on vocabs? I struggle to think of a problem with that, because the chain of dependencies shouldn't be an issue, unless there's a cycle. E.g., ! In a.factor USING: b ; IN: a : a-word ( -- ) b-word ; ! In b.factor USING: io ; IN: b : b-word ( -- ) Called b-word print ; ! At the listener IN: scratchpad USE: a Loading resource:work/a/a.factor Loading resource:work/b/b.factor IN: scratchpad a-word Called b-word Notice that a.factor doesn't need to have `USING: io`, even though b.factor does. So you don't need to think about anything beyond a file's immediate dependencies. I guess there would be an issue if you had a cyclic dependency, which needs to be resolved manually (or, more practically speaking, removed): ! In a.factor USING: b io ; IN: a : a-word1 ( -- ) b-word ; : a-word2 ( -- ) Called a-word2 print ; ! In b.factor USING: a ; : b-word ( -- ) a-word2 ; ! At the listener IN: scratchpad USE: a Loading resource:work/a/a.factor Loading resource:work/b/b.factor 1: USE: a ^ resource:work/a/a.factor 1: USING: b io ; ^ resource:work/b/b.factor 4: : b-word ( -- ) a-word2 ; ^ No word named “a-word2” found in current vocabulary search path The following restarts are available: :1 Defer word in current vocabulary :2 Load resource:work/b/b.factor again :3 Load resource:work/a/a.factor again Type :help for debugging help. IN: scratchpad :3 Loading resource:work/a/a.factor Loading resource:work/b/b.factor Loading resource:work/a/a.factor IN: scratchpad a-word1 Called a-word2 Maybe by interdependencies you mean that vocabs can step on each others' toes? If two vocabs define different words with the same name, there will be an ambiguity. To resolve, see http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-FROM__colon__,syntax.html In the developer tools I saw some interesting words for working with vocabularies. There might be a solution to my problem, if I use these tools, but I do not know where to start. Which interesting words? Sorry, I'm running out of psychic abilities. :) If you aren't sure what certain words do, it's helpful to browse through their documentation. Even if a word isn't quite what you want, there are usually related things you can click on, looking for related words until you stumble onto something useful. Hope any of that helps, --Alex Vondrak -- Monitor your physical, virtual and cloud infrastructure from a single web console. Get in-depth insight into apps, servers, databases, vmware, SAP, cloud infrastructure, etc. Download 30-day Free Trial. Pricing starts from $795 for 25 servers or applications! http://p.sf.net/sfu/zoho_dev2dev_nov ___ Factor-talk mailing list Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
