Re: [FairfieldLife] Advice Sought, Secular Meditation
Hi Doug, > Yes, check out some books by Dr. David R. Hawkins for instance. Thanks - I'll take a look. John - Original Message - From: "dhamiltony2k5" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:43 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Advice Sought, Secular Meditation --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "John Davis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm new to this list, so I hope the following post is appropriate. >It is > also somewhat lengthy, for which I apologise - conciseness was >never my > strong point. But I am in search of a spot of advice, and wondered >if anyone > here could help... > > There are, of course, non-mantra based meditations. But those that >I have > encountered seem based around the breath. And although this would >indeed > seem universal, what quiet I do find through TM comes when thought >of breath > has fallen away (as a woodwind musician, I am rarely unaware of, if >not > actively controlling, my breath). > > Hmm. I'm not sure there is a question in the above, so much as a >seeking of > thoughts and opinion. Is the mantra used of importance? If so, why? >If not, > why?! Do there by any chance exist other non mantra-based, non- >religious, > 'aimless' meditations? Are my thought processes described above >flawed? If > so, why and how? > > Anyways, thanks for reading this far, and any advice would be >greatfully > received. > > John > Yes, check out some books by Dr. David R. Hawkins for instance. Western enlightened spiritual guy who gives out secular meditation practices. For the longterm non-secular meditator his books and talks can be excellant advanced checking of spiritual experience. An Interesting synthesis in a life, of apex of Western and Eastern experience with meditation, spiritual experience and enlightenment as, secular. Similar to Eastern veneer of 'gurus' from India or Asia & yet without the cultural non-secular trip-traps of their shows. In his books there often are short description of productive secular spiritual practice meditation. You might like his books for your experience. Highly spiritual and like a modern-day Emerson. -Doug in FF
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Hip Hop Violin
It was great, but no way was it improvised. A flow of bliss perhaps, but a carefully rehearsed one. John - Original Message - From: "Duveyoung" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:04 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Hip Hop Violin This girl is such a delight. I thought every kid at MSAE was going to manifest this kind of excellence -- she's astoundingly accomplished at so young an age. But, her playing and dancing are the very least part of this video. It is her esteem that knocks me over. She loves "what's happening inside her brain" so much that it cannot be contained but must be radiated. In my eyes, she's pure, knows it, and thus there's no governor on her accelerator. She can just blast away knowing, trusting that flow of bliss, assured that her joie de vivre is authentic and brought to you without commercial (ego) interruption direct from the Absolute. Seeing her -- as proof that life can be good -- I should be filled with recriminations for my misspent life, but her energy leaves no room in my heart for any other emotion than "You go, girl!" What a thrill! Edg -- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I have pretty much zero appreciation for hip hop, but I *loved* > this video: > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=janXm1thRhM >
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Advice Sought
Hi, >Well put -- this sounds a lot like a form of "sleep-witnessing," when >the Self, pure consciousness, the Witness, begins to shine forth so >strongly that we feel as if we're always awake, even while the body is >actually sleeping. It's generally considered to be a Good Thing, one of >the signposts of growing Enlightenment -- even if it does take a little >getting used to! :-) I'm not sure even the most ardent supporter of TM would suggest that this could happen after, what, nine months or so of meditation, would they? It's a nice thought though! John - Original Message - From: "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 4:59 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Advice Sought --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "John Davis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > As for insomnia, someone asked whether I feel tired during the day. And, > oddly, not much. A little wearier, but certainly not as tired as I should > have expected on only a few hours sleep. Further, on contemplation, it > occurs to me that the hours awake lying in bed pass remarkably quickly. So > perhaps what I'm thinking of then as being awake, whilst certainly not > unconscious asleep as such, is not complete wakefulness. Well put -- this sounds a lot like a form of "sleep-witnessing," when the Self, pure consciousness, the Witness, begins to shine forth so strongly that we feel as if we're always awake, even while the body is actually sleeping. It's generally considered to be a Good Thing, one of the signposts of growing Enlightenment -- even if it does take a little getting used to! :-) *L*L*L*
Re: [FairfieldLife] Advice Sought
Hi, Many thanks for all your comments, thoughts, and advice. If I'm not replying to every individual email, it is to avoid cluttering up your list! But I have read and considered all of them. The concept/fact of the TM mantras being older than the Hindu religion, and so also older than the gods named after them, which might then be seen as personalisations of a pre-existing sound, makes a good deal of sense to me. In which case, as someone pointed out, using a mantra in TM is not actually an act of prayer or worship at all. (Though, as an aside to OffWorld, I think you can pray to something you do not exist in - how many kids spout the Lord's Prayer every day at school without a shred of thought or belief?! - which lack of belief is what to me makes the act disingenuous, and not something I would want to do.) I'll also investigate some of the other forms of meditation mentioned. As for insomnia, someone asked whether I feel tired during the day. And, oddly, not much. A little wearier, but certainly not as tired as I should have expected on only a few hours sleep. Further, on contemplation, it occurs to me that the hours awake lying in bed pass remarkably quickly. So perhaps what I'm thinking of then as being awake, whilst certainly not unconscious asleep as such, is not complete wakefulness. Still, I'll be looking into the various and varied pieces of advice offered. Thanks once again for all your help, John > > John Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > > I'm new to this list, so I hope the following post is appropriate. It is > also somewhat lengthy, for which I apologise - conciseness was never my > strong point. But I am in search of a spot of advice, and wondered if > anyone > here could help... > > I learned TM about nine months or so (I know, a newbie!). It appealed to > me > since whislt I consider myself in a sense spiritual, I am not religious, > and > TM seemed to offer a non-faith based approach to meditation. And it has > not > been entirely without benefit. But since then I have suffered increasingly > from insomnia. Not to a dreadful degree, but I'm lucky if I get three > hours > sleep a night. Growing unhappy with my instructor's standard 'part of the > process' response, I took a look online and found this wasn't entirely > uncommon, and nor was it necessarily temporary. But, in addition, I also > came upon the translations of the mantras. And here lies my real problem. > > I am not overly bothered by the deception involved when I was told, on > learning, that they are without meaning, since, for me at least, they > were. > But not any more. Now it seems to me that any universal truth has, by > definition, to transcend cultures, or it is not universal. The laws of > gravity, for example, might have been discovered in the west, but gravity > works everywhere at all times no matter what it is called or how it is > defined (well, a few claims to the contrary aside!). The processes of > nature, the existence of the bundle of emotions and feelings we define as > love, the existence of bad television shows...the list goes on, in all > disciplines of life. And if meditation has value, then similarly, the same > should be the case, must be the case. > > So. There seem to me to be two possibilities. One, that the actual mantra > used is irrrelvant, meaningless. Just a word to return to during > meditation > as a way of letting go of thought. But if this is so, why the insistence, > in > TM and indeed other traditions, on the use of particular mantras? Or two, > that the mantra used is important, and does have meaning. But if this is > so, > then the technique is not universal but rooted in a particular culture. > Moreover, when meditating I am in effect praying to a god not of my > culture, > and of whom I have no knowledge, which leaves me deeply uncomfortable. > > There are, of course, non-mantra based meditations. But those that I have > encountered seem based around the breath. And although this would indeed > seem universal, what quiet I do find through TM comes when thought of > breath > has fallen away (as a woodwind musician, I am rarely unaware of, if not > actively controlling, my breath). > > Hmm. I'm not sure there is a question in the above, so much as a seeking > of > thoughts and opinion. Is the mantra used of importance? If so, why? If > not, > why?! Do there by any chance exist other non mantra-based, non-religious, > 'aimless' meditations? Are my thought processes described above flawed? If > so, why and how? > > Anyways, thanks for reading this far, and any advice would be greatfully > received. > > John > > > > > > > - > You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck > in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Advice Sought
Hi OffWorld, >> Moreover, when meditating I am in effect praying to a god not of >>my culture, >> and of whom I have no knowledge, which leaves me deeply >>uncomfortable.>> >Why are you afraid of Gods? You are human for chrise sakes ! >Grow-up man. Afraid? No, that was not my meaning at all. But rather, seeing no reason to believe in the existence of an anthropomorphic interventionalist god or gods, the act of praying to one natrually leaves me feeling uncomfortable, both as sitting uneasily with my own beliefs, and as being potentially insulting to one who does believe. John - Original Message - From: "off_world_beings" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:55 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Advice Sought --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "John Davis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm new to this list, so I hope the following post is appropriate. It is > also somewhat lengthy, for which I apologise - conciseness was never my > strong point. But I am in search of a spot of advice, and wondered if anyone > here could help... > > I learned TM about nine months or so (I know, a newbie!). It appealed to me > since whislt I consider myself in a sense spiritual, I am not religious, and > TM seemed to offer a non-faith based approach to meditation. And it has not > been entirely without benefit. But since then I have suffered increasingly > from insomnia. Not to a dreadful degree, but I'm lucky if I get three hours > sleep a night. Growing unhappy with my instructor's standard 'part of the > process' response, I took a look online and found this wasn't entirely > uncommon, and nor was it necessarily temporary. But, in addition, I also > came upon the translations of the mantras. And here lies my real problem. > > I am not overly bothered by the deception involved when I was told, on > learning, that they are without meaning, since, for me at least, they were. > But not any more. Now it seems to me that any universal truth has, by > definition, to transcend cultures, or it is not universal. The laws of > gravity, for example, might have been discovered in the west, but gravity > works everywhere at all times no matter what it is called or how it is > defined (well, a few claims to the contrary aside!). The processes of > nature, the existence of the bundle of emotions and feelings we define as > love, the existence of bad television shows...the list goes on, in all > disciplines of life. And if meditation has value, then similarly, the same > should be the case, must be the case. > > So. There seem to me to be two possibilities. One, that the actual mantra > used is irrrelvant, meaningless. Just a word to return to during meditation > as a way of letting go of thought. But if this is so, why the insistence, in > TM and indeed other traditions, on the use of particular mantras? Or two, > that the mantra used is important, and does have meaning. >> "Meaning" is what people give to anything they like. Do you really think there is a big blue guy floating around in the clouds with a trident skewered with human souls, and a chowawa at his feet? And that he is at war with an incandescent red Harpi with who rides a white leapord and carries babies skulls in her hands??? If this is what you believe then good luck wit' that. But if this is so, > then the technique is not universal but rooted in a particular culture. > Moreover, when meditating I am in effect praying to a god not of my culture, > and of whom I have no knowledge, which leaves me deeply uncomfortable.>> Why are you afraid of Gods? You are human for chrise sakes ! Grow-up man. OffWorld
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Advice Sought
Hi, Many thanks for your thoughts. And yes, effortless is a far better term than aimless for meditation like TM, and the one for which I was blindly groping for! I suppose I term something religious as opposed to philosophical if what it says is couched in phraseology which implies the existence of things not apparent or provable. Or, alternatively, if its methods cannot be practised without belief in its tenets, which is to say cannot be 'extracted' from the tradition without loss. (A friend of mine is a Tibetan Buddhist, and I shy away from that practice for this very reason.) Which is what attracted me to TM, and how leaves me suspicious, given the religious nature of the mantras. If there are any forms of mediation that you might consider fall into (my!) categories of effortless and not religious, I'd be most grateful if you could point me in their direction... Thanks, John - Original Message - From: "TurquoiseB" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:21 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Advice Sought --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "John Davis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hmm. I'm not sure there is a question in the above, so much as > a seeking of thoughts and opinion. Hi, John. I'll offer some thoughts and opinons, which should be regarded as nothing more. I speak as a former TM teacher, but one who has not been part of the TM organization since the late 70s and who has been involved in other forms of meditation and spiritual practice in the years since. > Is the mantra used of importance? I know that others here will disagree with me, but I personally feel that the mantra has pretty much the importance that the meditator brings to it. If the tradition stresses the privateness and the specialness of the mantra and the way it's trans- mitted, naturally the meditator is going to feel that the mantra (and the choice of which mantra) is of great importance indeed. On the other hand, I've spent some time around groups in which mantras are handled in a more cavalier fashion. For example, during a dharma talk a teacher might throw out a particular man- tra and invite the people in the audience to meditate using it. No ceremony, no pomp, no circumstance, more Joe Friday-like in Dragnet, "Just the mantra, ma'am." Naturally, if you learned to meditate using a mantra you received in such a fashion, you probably wouldn't have the same near-sacred regard for it as someone who learned, say, TM, might have for their mantra. As to whether the mantra "works" any better as a vehicle of meditation in either case, I have to say that I have seen no evidence that there is any difference at all. I have known people who received a "cavalier" mantra thrown out in a public lecture and have transcended deeply on it immediately, and consistently afterwards. And I have known people who have received a "pomp and circumstance" mantra and who are still not sure, after decades, that they've ever transcended at all. So my opinion (and that's all it is) is that the choice of mantra and the manner in which it is transmitted are not nearly as important as some traditions make it out to be. > If so, why? If not, why?! Dealt with above. > Do there by any chance exist other non mantra-based, non- > religious, 'aimless' meditations? There are certainly many forms of non-mantra- based meditation. For example, Zen meditations based on following the breath, many different forms of mindfulness meditation, etc. As for how "non-religious" they might be, that would be up to you and your definition of "religious." For example, I have spent a number of years studying Buddhist thought, and I regard it as a philosophy, and very much NOT a religion, but your mileage may vary. As for "aimless," there are forms of meditation that are as effortless as TM, but I wouldn't call any of them (nor would I call TM) "aimless." They all have *somewhat* of an "aim," and a method of achieving that aim. Pure aimlessness, in my book, would be akin to daydreaming, which I do not personally feel is the same thing as meditation. > Are my thought processes described above flawed? If > so, why and how? I don't think your thought processes are flawed, but I suspect you'll encounter a few people here who might suggest that they are. Don't be too concerned about it; they've been telling me that my thought processes are flawed for years now, and their comments plus a Euro will buy ne a coffee at the corner cafe. :-) I still think that the basic TM technique has value, not the least of which being that it is easy to learn and to practice. And I received much value from practicing it, and know that many other people have as well. I walked away from TM not because of any real
[FairfieldLife] Advice Sought
Hi, I'm new to this list, so I hope the following post is appropriate. It is also somewhat lengthy, for which I apologise - conciseness was never my strong point. But I am in search of a spot of advice, and wondered if anyone here could help... I learned TM about nine months or so (I know, a newbie!). It appealed to me since whislt I consider myself in a sense spiritual, I am not religious, and TM seemed to offer a non-faith based approach to meditation. And it has not been entirely without benefit. But since then I have suffered increasingly from insomnia. Not to a dreadful degree, but I'm lucky if I get three hours sleep a night. Growing unhappy with my instructor's standard 'part of the process' response, I took a look online and found this wasn't entirely uncommon, and nor was it necessarily temporary. But, in addition, I also came upon the translations of the mantras. And here lies my real problem. I am not overly bothered by the deception involved when I was told, on learning, that they are without meaning, since, for me at least, they were. But not any more. Now it seems to me that any universal truth has, by definition, to transcend cultures, or it is not universal. The laws of gravity, for example, might have been discovered in the west, but gravity works everywhere at all times no matter what it is called or how it is defined (well, a few claims to the contrary aside!). The processes of nature, the existence of the bundle of emotions and feelings we define as love, the existence of bad television shows...the list goes on, in all disciplines of life. And if meditation has value, then similarly, the same should be the case, must be the case. So. There seem to me to be two possibilities. One, that the actual mantra used is irrrelvant, meaningless. Just a word to return to during meditation as a way of letting go of thought. But if this is so, why the insistence, in TM and indeed other traditions, on the use of particular mantras? Or two, that the mantra used is important, and does have meaning. But if this is so, then the technique is not universal but rooted in a particular culture. Moreover, when meditating I am in effect praying to a god not of my culture, and of whom I have no knowledge, which leaves me deeply uncomfortable. There are, of course, non-mantra based meditations. But those that I have encountered seem based around the breath. And although this would indeed seem universal, what quiet I do find through TM comes when thought of breath has fallen away (as a woodwind musician, I am rarely unaware of, if not actively controlling, my breath). Hmm. I'm not sure there is a question in the above, so much as a seeking of thoughts and opinion. Is the mantra used of importance? If so, why? If not, why?! Do there by any chance exist other non mantra-based, non-religious, 'aimless' meditations? Are my thought processes described above flawed? If so, why and how? Anyways, thanks for reading this far, and any advice would be greatfully received. John
