[FairfieldLife] Re: 430 Gay executions in "liberated" Iraq.

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> That's right. Both my and Feste's posts were
> criticisms of your behavior. Live with it.

If Maharishi was homophobic, why did he allow openly gay's on Purusha 
to take care of his rooms and Puja-table in Holland, or allow them to 
be at the Purusha Course Office for years after years, or allow all the 
gays ( at least 10% ) to stay on the Purusha-programme, or allow openly 
gays to be couseleaders on TTC ?

Barry has obviously no idea of what he is talking, as we if we didn't 
know that already.

[FairfieldLife] Re: 430 Gay executions in "liberated" Iraq.

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37"  
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Amazing that even in a topic completely
> > > > unrelated to TM and MMY, this poster still
> > > > feels compelled to launch an attack. 
> > > 
> > > Amazing that although I commented on *Maharishi*,
> > > not you, you feel you have to respond as if I had
> > > attacked you. Some attachment issues goin' on?  :-)
> > 
> > Most amazing of all, there is *absolutely
> > nothing* in Feste's post that suggests he
> > took Barry's attack on MMY personally.
> > 
> > Barry made that up out of whole cloth, as
> > he does most of his attacks on TMers.
> 
> I see that Ms. I Don't Care What Anyone 
> Says, I'm Still Going To Throw My Vote Away 
> To Spite Obama For Having W..W..W..Won The
> Nomination

Wow, he still doesn't get it. Still utterly
oblivious.

 is having as enjoyable a vacation 
> as she always does, and has as meaningful 
> and content-filled things to contribute to 
> FFL as she always does. :-)
> 
> Even *Feste* realized that he had responded
> to me basically *telling the truth about
> Maharishi* and then extrapolating on that
> truth NOT by posting something to counter 
> what I said about him, but by ATTACKING ME.

Well, no, he didn't "realize" any such thing.
In fact, he pointed out that you had tried to
distract attention from his fact-based criticism
of you by making up something about Feste of
which there was zero evidence in his post.

> I called him on his classic True Believer 
> behavior,

That's not what it was, of course. What he
pointed out was that you'll try to turn
*any* discussion into criticism of MMY and/
or the TMO and/or TMers, no matter how
distant the subject matter.

What's so funny is that this behavior is
much more akin to classic True Believerism
than anything Feste said.

 and in his next post he belatedly 
> said something with some actual content about 
> what I actually said about MMY. 
> 
> That followup post, presenting his view of
> why he didn't think that Maharishi was as
> homophobic as I do, was completely appropriate
> and I said nothing in reply BECAUSE it was
> appropriate. The first post, attacking me 
> but with zero content, I pointed out as what
> it was -- classic TM TB kneejerkism. Now
> Judy is angry with me for pointing it out.

No, Barry, I'm laughing at you because you're
such a transparent fraud.


> Feste got his "somebody said something I 
> don't like about Maharishi" buttons pushed,
> and reacted the way he'd been taught to,
> by the TMO and by role models for this kind
> of mindless behavior on FFL, like...dare I 
> say it...Judy herself. He reacted NOT by 
> addressed the criticism itself but by 
> trying to trash the critic.

You seem to think, Barry, that being a critic
somehow inoculates you against any criticism.
It doesn't. In this case, you were being
criticized not for what you said about MMY's
views on homosexuality, but rather for
shoehorning it into a discussion that had
nothing whatsoever to do with MMY.

> And please note that Judy's ONLY reason for
> ...uh..."contributing" to this thread is 
> once again to trash the critic. She says abso-
> lutely NOTHING about the original criticism.

That's right, because that isn't what I'm
commenting on. I'm commenting, as was Feste,
on the context of your criticism--i.e., a
discussion that had nothing to do with MMY.

You'are attempting to deflect that criticism
by accusing Feste and me of being knee-jerk
True Believers, which is a total non
sequitur as well as being false.

> She can't, because 1) she was never there
> in the room with Maharishi to hear what he
> said about gays, and 2) if she was honest
> with herself she'd agree with me, based on
> what she *has* heard second hand, that he
> *was* rabidly homophobic.

Well, no, I wouldn't agree that he was 
"rabidly homophobic." I'd go along with
Feste's take based on what I've heard
second-hand.

> The ONLY thing she finds worth saying, up at
> 1:00 a.m. in the morning with a screaming
> need to trash someone, anyone, is to replay
> another of her endless Gotta Trash Barry
> posts. This behavior is getting even older
> than she is, and that's OLD. :-)

Barry Wright, Master of Projection.

> To be honest, that is why I posted what I
> did in the first place. I wanted to see who 
> was still so lost in TM True Believer Mode 
> that they'd come out of the woodwork to 
> "shoot the messenger" over a comment about
> Maharishi that is basically TRUE.

(I could swear that Barry's the guy who
insists he doesn't believe that anything
is either TRUE or FALSE.)

Barry, your claim above is extremely dubious,
given that MMY's views on homosexuality have
been extensively discussed here. The real
True Believers would try to justify MMY's
views, not deny that he held th

[FairfieldLife] Re: 430 Gay executions in "liberated" Iraq.

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Amazing that even in a topic completely unrelated to TM and 
> > > MMY, this poster still feels compelled to launch an attack. 
> > 
> > Amazing that although I commented on *Maharishi*,
> > not you, you feel you have to respond as if I had
> > attacked you. Some attachment issues goin' on?  :-)
> 
> Most amazing of all, there is *absolutely
> nothing* in Feste's post that suggests he
> took Barry's attack on MMY personally.
> 
> Barry made that up out of whole cloth, as
> he does most of his attacks on TMers.

I see that Ms. I Don't Care What Anyone 
Says, I'm Still Going To Throw My Vote Away 
To Spite Obama For Having W..W..W..Won The
Nomination is having as enjoyable a vacation 
as she always does, and has as meaningful 
and content-filled things to contribute to 
FFL as she always does. :-)

Even *Feste* realized that he had responded
to me basically *telling the truth about
Maharishi* and then extrapolating on that
truth NOT by posting something to counter 
what I said about him, but by ATTACKING ME. 
I called him on his classic True Believer 
behavior, and in his next post he belatedly 
said something with some actual content about 
what I actually said about MMY. 

That followup post, presenting his view of
why he didn't think that Maharishi was as
homophobic as I do, was completely appropriate
and I said nothing in reply BECAUSE it was
appropriate. The first post, attacking me 
but with zero content, I pointed out as what
it was -- classic TM TB kneejerkism. Now
Judy is angry with me for pointing it out.

Please note that JUDY doesn't say anything
to counter what I said about Maharishi, 
either. All she does is jerk her ugly knees. :-)

Feste got his "somebody said something I 
don't like about Maharishi" buttons pushed,
and reacted the way he'd been taught to,
by the TMO and by role models for this kind
of mindless behavior on FFL, like...dare I 
say it...Judy herself. He reacted NOT by 
addressed the criticism itself but by 
trying to trash the critic.

And please note that Judy's ONLY reason for
...uh..."contributing" to this thread is 
once again to trash the critic. She says abso-
lutely NOTHING about the original criticism. 
She can't, because 1) she was never there 
in the room with Maharishi to hear what he 
said about gays, and 2) if she was honest 
with herself she'd agree with me, based on
what she *has* heard second hand, that he
*was* rabidly homophobic. 

The ONLY thing she finds worth saying, up at 
1:00 a.m. in the morning with a screaming 
need to trash someone, anyone, is to replay
another of her endless Gotta Trash Barry 
posts. This behavior is getting even older
than she is, and that's OLD.  :-)

To be honest, that is why I posted what I
did in the first place. I wanted to see who 
was still so lost in TM True Believer Mode 
that they'd come out of the woodwork to 
"shoot the messenger" over a comment about
Maharishi that is basically TRUE.

Feste's response to my comment about MMY 
*was* an attack on me. That's ALL it was. 
There was no other content in his post. 

There was no other content in Judy's post.

This is how they responded. Me suggesting
that the REASON they respond this way is
that they cannot tell the difference 
between someone saying critical about MMY
or another TMer and someone "attacking" 
them personally is conjecture.

But I'll still stand on that conjecture,
because their everyday behavior screams it 
more loudly than any of their pathetic 
attempts to deny it.

[FairfieldLife] Re: 430 Gay executions in "liberated" Iraq.

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37"  wrote:
> >
> > Amazing that even in a topic completely unrelated to TM and 
> > MMY, this poster still feels compelled to launch an attack. 
> 
> Amazing that although I commented on *Maharishi*,
> not you, you feel you have to respond as if I had
> attacked you. Some attachment issues goin' on?  :-)

Most amazing of all, there is *absolutely
nothing* in Feste's post that suggests he
took Barry's attack on MMY personally.

Barry made that up out of whole cloth, as
he does most of his attacks on TMers.

[FairfieldLife] Re: 430 Gay executions in "liberated" Iraq.

[feste37]

My guess is that MMY was very much of his time and place in how he
thought of homosexuality. However, to add to what others have
reported, I did hear that he once said of gays, "No love is ever
wasted." This was reported to me by a gay person in the TM movement
who may well have directly heard him say this.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37"  wrote:
> >
> > What a peculiar response. I didn't feel personally attacked 
> > by your post. That's not what I wrote. Part of your post was 
> > an attack on MMY, and that was what I was responding to. 
> > Nothing to do with me personally. Odd that you should try 
> > to twist it like that.
> 
> Part of my post was the TRUTH about Maharishi.
> 
> You said nothing whatsoever to counter what I
> said or to defend him. 
>   
> Instead you attacked me. 
> 
> If you have information that suggests that Maha-
> rishi was NOT a homophobe, please present it. 
> That is appropriate.
> 
> Attacking the critic instead of dealing with
> the criticism is a True Believer trick.
> 
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Amazing that even in a topic completely unrelated to TM and 
> > > > MMY, this poster still feels compelled to launch an attack. 
> > > 
> > > Amazing that although I commented on *Maharishi*,
> > > not you, you feel you have to respond as if I had
> > > attacked you. Some attachment issues goin' on?  :-)
> > > 
> > > And the thing is, you know that what I said is true
> > > if you were ever in the room and heard him on one
> > > of his anti-gay rants. I had a gay TM friend who had
> > > to run from the room after hearing one of them. *Not* 
> > > because she felt that her sexual choice was in any 
> > > way wrong, but because he was embarrassed to be in 
> > > the room with someone she had respected (Maharishi) 
> > > who turned out to be so bigoted.
> > > 
> > > She later had the same reaction when (as holder of
> > > three PhDs), she sat there and heard Maharishi say to
> > > a woman who had just gotten her second PhD, "Very
> > > good...this will make you a better conversationalist
> > > for your husband and your children." She never came
> > > back after seeing that particular exercise in misogyny.
> > > 
> > > > I guess he's on automatic pilot and just can't help himself. 
> > > > It must be sad to be so obsessed with something you claim 
> > > > to have left behind more than a quarter of a century ago.  
> > > 
> > > I'd say that it's somewhat sadder to be so *attached*
> > > to your beliefs or your allegiance to a spiritual 
> > > teacher that you can't tell a criticism of him from
> > > a criticism of you.
> > > 
> > > The fact that I'm no longer *part* of insane and 
> > > unethical beliefs and practices doesn't mean that they 
> > > suddenly started getting more sane or ethical. Or that 
> > > I have stopped caring about them.
> > > 
> > > I think Maharishi did a few good things. I think he
> > > did more than a few not-so-good things. I'll still
> > > praise the good ones, and still rip the not-so-good
> > > ones a new asshole any time I feel like it. And 
> > > *neither* of these behaviors has anything whatsoever
> > > to do with YOU. If you feel so "attacked" by what I 
> > > say that you need to attack me in response, IMO it's 
> > > YOUR problem.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB 
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > This is all fascinating to me because between the
> > > > > ages of 14 and 16 I lived in Morocco, and traveled
> > > > > in Tunisia and Algeria. My clear memory (this was
> > > > > in the early 60s) was that homosexuality was far
> > > > > more openly displayed there than back in the U.S.
> > > > > 
> > > > > It was common to see men holding hands or kissing
> > > > > on the streets. True, I was a voyeur looking at a
> > > > > society I wasn't really part of, but my feeling
> > > > > at the time, and the impression that I got from
> > > > > my Arab friends at the time, was that homosexuality
> > > > > was not only considered a normal part of life, but
> > > > > was nothing much to be ashamed of. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Compare and contrast to the new religious extremism.
> > > > > 
> > > > > As far as I can tell, pretty much every time the
> > > > > fanatical religionists get their hands on a society,
> > > > > it starts to devolve rather than evolve. Can you
> > > > > imagine what Maharishi ("Better to be dead") Mahesh
> > > > > Yogi would have decreed if he'd actually managed
> > > > > to take over governments the way he wanted to?
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" 
wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Before the US invasion of Iraq, under Sadam Hussein, gays were
> > more
> > > > > or less
> > > > > > left alone. Now, with religious fascism on the rise, more
> than 43

[FairfieldLife] Re: 430 Gay executions in "liberated" Iraq.

[shempmcgurk]

Putting aside the relative benefit of being anybody -- gay or 
straight -- under Saddam's regime versus the current one, this 
article also brings to my mind the question whether Kuwaitis would 
have been better off under the secular regime of Saddam when he took 
over that country back in the early 90s or whether they are better 
off today under their religious regime.

This is an interesting question because unlike the invasion of Iraq 
in '03, the Kuwait "liberation" invasion under Bush41 was supported 
by about 90% of the electorate before, during, and after the invasion 
(and with the exception of certain extremists on this forum probably 
by everyone here as well).

One of the things emphasized more than any others in the current war 
is of giving freedom and democracy to Iraqis.  In Afghanistan we 
constantly hear about women being given degrees of freedom (eg basic 
education!) after the U.S. libeation that were unheard of under the 
Taliban.  Equality to women is one of the main taglines for U.S. 
involvement in Afghanistan.

Well, Saddam may well have been a monstrous murdering dictator but he 
did believe in the equality of the sexes and education for all,  
cornerstones of Bush's policies in Iraq and Afghanistan.  No, Saddam 
probably wouldn't have instituted free elections in Kuwait had he 
stayed but the Kuwaitis didn't have that under the Kuwaiti regime 
either!  So all things being equal, Saddam did indeed bring the very 
real promise of liberation and freedom to Kuwait, at least relative 
to what they had under the Kuwaiti regime.  AND he was more than 
happy to continue supplying oil to his then-ally, the United States.

So if anyone has a problem with invasions by the U.S., complain about 
that one first.




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Before the US invasion of Iraq, under Sadam Hussein, gays were more 
or less
> left alone. Now, with religious fascism on the rise, more than 430 
gays have
> been executed since 2003. How ironic, as the neo-cons invaded Iraq
> supposedly to remove a dictator and create a democracy that will 
spread
> throughout the middle east. Instead, they have unleashed religious 
extremism
> in the country, as this article about the execution of gays clearly 
details.
> It proves that all the neocons really wanted was to exploit Iraq's 
oil
> wealth, and that they had no interest in human rights at all. Of 
course,
> should this surprise us? The Republicans in the US are the part of 
bigotry,
> sexism, racism, and homophobia. -=-=-= om-==- Nick
> 
> 
> When militiamen from the Mahdi Army came by the compact, two-story 
stone
> home in the Doura neighborhood of
>  Baghdad, 
they weren't
> looking for Sunnis to harass. They were hunting gays. "Bring us 
your son's
> cell phone," one ordered the middle-aged man who came to the gate. 
They
> wanted to check if his son, Nadir, had been calling foreigners--and 
in fact
> he had only hours earlier called this reporter to set up a meeting, 
and he
> had repeatedly called a gay nongovernmental organization (NGO) in 
London.
> Fortunately, Nadir was ready for them and produced a "clean" phone 
he keeps
> for just such a threat. This time they left, but vowed to come back 
if they
> found any evidence he was gay--or was talking to undesirable 
foreigners. Now
> that   Iraq's 
sectarian
> war has cooled off, it's open season on homosexuals and others whose
> lifestyles infuriate religious hardliners.
> 
> Sometimes the act of reporting a story is revealing in itself--
especially
> when it proves particularly difficult. This was the case when 
NEWSWEEK began
> looking into the problems of Iraq's homosexuals after hearing 
reports of
> secret safe houses around Baghdad where many of them were taking 
refuge from
> the militias' self-appointed morality police. After weeks of 
inquiries,
> NEWSWEEK managed to find Nadir and persuade him to arrange a visit 
to one of
> the safe houses he helps run. Instead, the Mahdi militia rousted 
him the
> night before. Established in 2004, the militia is the armed wing of 
the
> organization led by radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, who has 
been an
> implacable foe of the Maliki government. Terrified, Nadir contacted 
people
> at the London-based gay NGO that finances the safe house, and they
> instructed him to break off the visit.
> 
> That was only one of many problems reporting on gays in Iraq. Iraqi
> authorities scoffed at the subject--when not scolding a reporter 
for even
> asking about it. Some of NEWSWEEK's own local staff were wary of 
the story.
> Virtually no government officials would sit for an interview. And 
the United
> Nations human-rights office, which has a big presence in Iraq, 
dodged the
> subject like a mine field. As with a number of Muslim societies 
where
> homosexuality is officially nonexistent but widel

RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: 430 Gay executions in "liberated" Iraq.

[Rick Archer]

From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of TurquoiseB
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:11 AM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: 430 Gay executions in "liberated" Iraq.

 

If you have information that suggests that Maha-
rishi was NOT a homophobe, please present it. 
That is appropriate

I heard the "better off not having been born" quote you quoted, but I also
heard that he once said something like, "We shouldn't be too hard on them
(gays). Some of them have done good things for the Movement." (As if that
justified their existence.)

Both rumors, Nabby. No need to remind me.

[FairfieldLife] Re: 430 Gay executions in "liberated" Iraq.

[do.rflex]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37"  wrote:
> >
> > What a peculiar response. I didn't feel personally attacked 
> > by your post. That's not what I wrote. Part of your post was 
> > an attack on MMY, and that was what I was responding to. 
> > Nothing to do with me personally. Odd that you should try 
> > to twist it like that.
> 
> Part of my post was the TRUTH about Maharishi.
> 
> You said nothing whatsoever to counter what I
> said or to defend him. 
>   
> Instead you attacked me. 
> 
> If you have information that suggests that Maha-
> rishi was NOT a homophobe, please present it. 
> That is appropriate.



While I've heard that Maharishi had made statements against
homosexuality, at my TTC in Estes Park, Maharishi's cook was to all
appearances and commentary, a flaming gay guy.

[FairfieldLife] Re: 430 Gay executions in "liberated" Iraq.

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> What a peculiar response. I didn't feel personally attacked 
> by your post. That's not what I wrote. Part of your post was 
> an attack on MMY, and that was what I was responding to. 
> Nothing to do with me personally. Odd that you should try 
> to twist it like that.

Part of my post was the TRUTH about Maharishi.

You said nothing whatsoever to counter what I
said or to defend him. 
  
Instead you attacked me. 

If you have information that suggests that Maha-
rishi was NOT a homophobe, please present it. 
That is appropriate.

Attacking the critic instead of dealing with
the criticism is a True Believer trick.


> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Amazing that even in a topic completely unrelated to TM and 
> > > MMY, this poster still feels compelled to launch an attack. 
> > 
> > Amazing that although I commented on *Maharishi*,
> > not you, you feel you have to respond as if I had
> > attacked you. Some attachment issues goin' on?  :-)
> > 
> > And the thing is, you know that what I said is true
> > if you were ever in the room and heard him on one
> > of his anti-gay rants. I had a gay TM friend who had
> > to run from the room after hearing one of them. *Not* 
> > because she felt that her sexual choice was in any 
> > way wrong, but because he was embarrassed to be in 
> > the room with someone she had respected (Maharishi) 
> > who turned out to be so bigoted.
> > 
> > She later had the same reaction when (as holder of
> > three PhDs), she sat there and heard Maharishi say to
> > a woman who had just gotten her second PhD, "Very
> > good...this will make you a better conversationalist
> > for your husband and your children." She never came
> > back after seeing that particular exercise in misogyny.
> > 
> > > I guess he's on automatic pilot and just can't help himself. 
> > > It must be sad to be so obsessed with something you claim 
> > > to have left behind more than a quarter of a century ago.  
> > 
> > I'd say that it's somewhat sadder to be so *attached*
> > to your beliefs or your allegiance to a spiritual 
> > teacher that you can't tell a criticism of him from
> > a criticism of you.
> > 
> > The fact that I'm no longer *part* of insane and 
> > unethical beliefs and practices doesn't mean that they 
> > suddenly started getting more sane or ethical. Or that 
> > I have stopped caring about them.
> > 
> > I think Maharishi did a few good things. I think he
> > did more than a few not-so-good things. I'll still
> > praise the good ones, and still rip the not-so-good
> > ones a new asshole any time I feel like it. And 
> > *neither* of these behaviors has anything whatsoever
> > to do with YOU. If you feel so "attacked" by what I 
> > say that you need to attack me in response, IMO it's 
> > YOUR problem.
> > 
> > 
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > This is all fascinating to me because between the
> > > > ages of 14 and 16 I lived in Morocco, and traveled
> > > > in Tunisia and Algeria. My clear memory (this was
> > > > in the early 60s) was that homosexuality was far
> > > > more openly displayed there than back in the U.S.
> > > > 
> > > > It was common to see men holding hands or kissing
> > > > on the streets. True, I was a voyeur looking at a
> > > > society I wasn't really part of, but my feeling
> > > > at the time, and the impression that I got from
> > > > my Arab friends at the time, was that homosexuality
> > > > was not only considered a normal part of life, but
> > > > was nothing much to be ashamed of. 
> > > > 
> > > > Compare and contrast to the new religious extremism.
> > > > 
> > > > As far as I can tell, pretty much every time the
> > > > fanatical religionists get their hands on a society,
> > > > it starts to devolve rather than evolve. Can you
> > > > imagine what Maharishi ("Better to be dead") Mahesh
> > > > Yogi would have decreed if he'd actually managed
> > > > to take over governments the way he wanted to?
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Before the US invasion of Iraq, under Sadam Hussein, gays were
> more
> > > > or less
> > > > > left alone. Now, with religious fascism on the rise, more
than 430
> > > > gays have
> > > > > been executed since 2003. How ironic, as the neo-cons
invaded Iraq
> > > > > supposedly to remove a dictator and create a democracy that will
> > > spread
> > > > > throughout the middle east. Instead, they have unleashed
religious
> > > > extremism
> > > > > in the country, as this article about the execution of gays
> clearly
> > > > details.
> > > > > It proves that all the neocons really wanted was to exploit
> > Iraq's oil
> > > > > wealth, and that they had no interest in human rights at all. Of
> > > course,
> > > > > should this surprise u

[FairfieldLife] Re: 430 Gay executions in "liberated" Iraq.

[feste37]

What a peculiar response. I didn't feel personally attacked by your
post. That's not what I wrote. Part of your post was an attack on MMY,
and that was what I was responding to. Nothing to do with me
personally. Odd that you should try to twist it like that.  

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37"  wrote:
> >
> > Amazing that even in a topic completely unrelated to TM and 
> > MMY, this poster still feels compelled to launch an attack. 
> 
> Amazing that although I commented on *Maharishi*,
> not you, you feel you have to respond as if I had
> attacked you. Some attachment issues goin' on?  :-)
> 
> And the thing is, you know that what I said is true
> if you were ever in the room and heard him on one
> of his anti-gay rants. I had a gay TM friend who had
> to run from the room after hearing one of them. *Not* 
> because she felt that her sexual choice was in any 
> way wrong, but because he was embarrassed to be in 
> the room with someone she had respected (Maharishi) 
> who turned out to be so bigoted.
> 
> She later had the same reaction when (as holder of
> three PhDs), she sat there and heard Maharishi say to
> a woman who had just gotten her second PhD, "Very
> good...this will make you a better conversationalist
> for your husband and your children." She never came
> back after seeing that particular exercise in misogyny.
> 
> > I guess he's on automatic pilot and just can't help himself. 
> > It must be sad to be so obsessed with something you claim 
> > to have left behind more than a quarter of a century ago.  
> 
> I'd say that it's somewhat sadder to be so *attached*
> to your beliefs or your allegiance to a spiritual 
> teacher that you can't tell a criticism of him from
> a criticism of you.
> 
> The fact that I'm no longer *part* of insane and 
> unethical beliefs and practices doesn't mean that they 
> suddenly started getting more sane or ethical. Or that 
> I have stopped caring about them.
> 
> I think Maharishi did a few good things. I think he
> did more than a few not-so-good things. I'll still
> praise the good ones, and still rip the not-so-good
> ones a new asshole any time I feel like it. And 
> *neither* of these behaviors has anything whatsoever
> to do with YOU. If you feel so "attacked" by what I 
> say that you need to attack me in response, IMO it's 
> YOUR problem.
> 
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> > >
> > > This is all fascinating to me because between the
> > > ages of 14 and 16 I lived in Morocco, and traveled
> > > in Tunisia and Algeria. My clear memory (this was
> > > in the early 60s) was that homosexuality was far
> > > more openly displayed there than back in the U.S.
> > > 
> > > It was common to see men holding hands or kissing
> > > on the streets. True, I was a voyeur looking at a
> > > society I wasn't really part of, but my feeling
> > > at the time, and the impression that I got from
> > > my Arab friends at the time, was that homosexuality
> > > was not only considered a normal part of life, but
> > > was nothing much to be ashamed of. 
> > > 
> > > Compare and contrast to the new religious extremism.
> > > 
> > > As far as I can tell, pretty much every time the
> > > fanatical religionists get their hands on a society,
> > > it starts to devolve rather than evolve. Can you
> > > imagine what Maharishi ("Better to be dead") Mahesh
> > > Yogi would have decreed if he'd actually managed
> > > to take over governments the way he wanted to?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Before the US invasion of Iraq, under Sadam Hussein, gays were
more
> > > or less
> > > > left alone. Now, with religious fascism on the rise, more than 430
> > > gays have
> > > > been executed since 2003. How ironic, as the neo-cons invaded Iraq
> > > > supposedly to remove a dictator and create a democracy that will
> > spread
> > > > throughout the middle east. Instead, they have unleashed religious
> > > extremism
> > > > in the country, as this article about the execution of gays
clearly
> > > details.
> > > > It proves that all the neocons really wanted was to exploit
> Iraq's oil
> > > > wealth, and that they had no interest in human rights at all. Of
> > course,
> > > > should this surprise us? The Republicans in the US are the part of
> > > bigotry,
> > > > sexism, racism, and homophobia. -=-=-= om-==- Nick
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > When militiamen from the Mahdi Army came by the compact, two-story
> > stone
> > > > home in the Doura neighborhood of
> > > > 
Baghdad, they
> > > weren't
> > > > looking for Sunnis to harass. They were hunting gays. "Bring
us your
> > > son's
> > > > cell phone," one ordered the middle-aged man who came to the gate.
> > They
> > > > wanted to check if his son, Nadir, had been calling
foreigners--and
> > > in fact

[FairfieldLife] Re: 430 Gay executions in "liberated" Iraq.

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Amazing that even in a topic completely unrelated to TM and 
> MMY, this poster still feels compelled to launch an attack. 

Amazing that although I commented on *Maharishi*,
not you, you feel you have to respond as if I had
attacked you. Some attachment issues goin' on?  :-)

And the thing is, you know that what I said is true
if you were ever in the room and heard him on one
of his anti-gay rants. I had a gay TM friend who had
to run from the room after hearing one of them. *Not* 
because she felt that her sexual choice was in any 
way wrong, but because he was embarrassed to be in 
the room with someone she had respected (Maharishi) 
who turned out to be so bigoted.

She later had the same reaction when (as holder of
three PhDs), she sat there and heard Maharishi say to
a woman who had just gotten her second PhD, "Very
good...this will make you a better conversationalist
for your husband and your children." She never came
back after seeing that particular exercise in misogyny.

> I guess he's on automatic pilot and just can't help himself. 
> It must be sad to be so obsessed with something you claim 
> to have left behind more than a quarter of a century ago.  

I'd say that it's somewhat sadder to be so *attached*
to your beliefs or your allegiance to a spiritual 
teacher that you can't tell a criticism of him from
a criticism of you.

The fact that I'm no longer *part* of insane and 
unethical beliefs and practices doesn't mean that they 
suddenly started getting more sane or ethical. Or that 
I have stopped caring about them.

I think Maharishi did a few good things. I think he
did more than a few not-so-good things. I'll still
praise the good ones, and still rip the not-so-good
ones a new asshole any time I feel like it. And 
*neither* of these behaviors has anything whatsoever
to do with YOU. If you feel so "attacked" by what I 
say that you need to attack me in response, IMO it's 
YOUR problem.


> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> >
> > This is all fascinating to me because between the
> > ages of 14 and 16 I lived in Morocco, and traveled
> > in Tunisia and Algeria. My clear memory (this was
> > in the early 60s) was that homosexuality was far
> > more openly displayed there than back in the U.S.
> > 
> > It was common to see men holding hands or kissing
> > on the streets. True, I was a voyeur looking at a
> > society I wasn't really part of, but my feeling
> > at the time, and the impression that I got from
> > my Arab friends at the time, was that homosexuality
> > was not only considered a normal part of life, but
> > was nothing much to be ashamed of. 
> > 
> > Compare and contrast to the new religious extremism.
> > 
> > As far as I can tell, pretty much every time the
> > fanatical religionists get their hands on a society,
> > it starts to devolve rather than evolve. Can you
> > imagine what Maharishi ("Better to be dead") Mahesh
> > Yogi would have decreed if he'd actually managed
> > to take over governments the way he wanted to?
> > 
> > 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Before the US invasion of Iraq, under Sadam Hussein, gays were more
> > or less
> > > left alone. Now, with religious fascism on the rise, more than 430
> > gays have
> > > been executed since 2003. How ironic, as the neo-cons invaded Iraq
> > > supposedly to remove a dictator and create a democracy that will
> spread
> > > throughout the middle east. Instead, they have unleashed religious
> > extremism
> > > in the country, as this article about the execution of gays clearly
> > details.
> > > It proves that all the neocons really wanted was to exploit
Iraq's oil
> > > wealth, and that they had no interest in human rights at all. Of
> course,
> > > should this surprise us? The Republicans in the US are the part of
> > bigotry,
> > > sexism, racism, and homophobia. -=-=-= om-==- Nick
> > > 
> > > 
> > > When militiamen from the Mahdi Army came by the compact, two-story
> stone
> > > home in the Doura neighborhood of
> > >  Baghdad, they
> > weren't
> > > looking for Sunnis to harass. They were hunting gays. "Bring us your
> > son's
> > > cell phone," one ordered the middle-aged man who came to the gate.
> They
> > > wanted to check if his son, Nadir, had been calling foreigners--and
> > in fact
> > > he had only hours earlier called this reporter to set up a meeting,
> > and he
> > > had repeatedly called a gay nongovernmental organization (NGO) in
> > London.
> > > Fortunately, Nadir was ready for them and produced a "clean" phone
> > he keeps
> > > for just such a threat. This time they left, but vowed to come back
> > if they
> > > found any evidence he was gay--or was talking to undesirable
> > foreigners. Now
> > > that   Iraq's
> > sectarian
> > > war has cooled of

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 430 Gay executions in "liberated" Iraq.

[Sal Sunshine]

On Aug 27, 2008, at 10:10 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:


It was common to see men holding hands or kissing
on the streets. True, I was a voyeur looking at a
society I wasn't really part of, but my feeling
at the time, and the impression that I got from
my Arab friends at the time, was that homosexuality
was not only considered a normal part of life, but
was nothing much to be ashamed of.

Compare and contrast to the new religious extremism.


I don't know, Barry--the new religious extremism sort of
looks a lot like the *old* religious extremism...

What you're describing was tolerance.

Sal

[FairfieldLife] Re: 430 Gay executions in "liberated" Iraq.

[feste37]

Amazing that even in a topic completely unrelated to TM and MMY, this
poster still feels compelled to launch an attack. I guess he's on
automatic pilot and just can't help himself. It must be sad to be so
obsessed with something you claim to have left behind more than a
quarter of a century ago.  

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> This is all fascinating to me because between the
> ages of 14 and 16 I lived in Morocco, and traveled
> in Tunisia and Algeria. My clear memory (this was
> in the early 60s) was that homosexuality was far
> more openly displayed there than back in the U.S.
> 
> It was common to see men holding hands or kissing
> on the streets. True, I was a voyeur looking at a
> society I wasn't really part of, but my feeling
> at the time, and the impression that I got from
> my Arab friends at the time, was that homosexuality
> was not only considered a normal part of life, but
> was nothing much to be ashamed of. 
> 
> Compare and contrast to the new religious extremism.
> 
> As far as I can tell, pretty much every time the
> fanatical religionists get their hands on a society,
> it starts to devolve rather than evolve. Can you
> imagine what Maharishi ("Better to be dead") Mahesh
> Yogi would have decreed if he'd actually managed
> to take over governments the way he wanted to?
> 
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
> >
> > Before the US invasion of Iraq, under Sadam Hussein, gays were more
> or less
> > left alone. Now, with religious fascism on the rise, more than 430
> gays have
> > been executed since 2003. How ironic, as the neo-cons invaded Iraq
> > supposedly to remove a dictator and create a democracy that will
spread
> > throughout the middle east. Instead, they have unleashed religious
> extremism
> > in the country, as this article about the execution of gays clearly
> details.
> > It proves that all the neocons really wanted was to exploit Iraq's oil
> > wealth, and that they had no interest in human rights at all. Of
course,
> > should this surprise us? The Republicans in the US are the part of
> bigotry,
> > sexism, racism, and homophobia. -=-=-= om-==- Nick
> > 
> > 
> > When militiamen from the Mahdi Army came by the compact, two-story
stone
> > home in the Doura neighborhood of
> >  Baghdad, they
> weren't
> > looking for Sunnis to harass. They were hunting gays. "Bring us your
> son's
> > cell phone," one ordered the middle-aged man who came to the gate.
They
> > wanted to check if his son, Nadir, had been calling foreigners--and
> in fact
> > he had only hours earlier called this reporter to set up a meeting,
> and he
> > had repeatedly called a gay nongovernmental organization (NGO) in
> London.
> > Fortunately, Nadir was ready for them and produced a "clean" phone
> he keeps
> > for just such a threat. This time they left, but vowed to come back
> if they
> > found any evidence he was gay--or was talking to undesirable
> foreigners. Now
> > that   Iraq's
> sectarian
> > war has cooled off, it's open season on homosexuals and others whose
> > lifestyles infuriate religious hardliners.
> > 
> > Sometimes the act of reporting a story is revealing in
> itself--especially
> > when it proves particularly difficult. This was the case when
> NEWSWEEK began
> > looking into the problems of Iraq's homosexuals after hearing
reports of
> > secret safe houses around Baghdad where many of them were taking
> refuge from
> > the militias' self-appointed morality police. After weeks of
inquiries,
> > NEWSWEEK managed to find Nadir and persuade him to arrange a visit
> to one of
> > the safe houses he helps run. Instead, the Mahdi militia rousted
him the
> > night before. Established in 2004, the militia is the armed wing
of the
> > organization led by radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, who has
> been an
> > implacable foe of the Maliki government. Terrified, Nadir contacted
> people
> > at the London-based gay NGO that finances the safe house, and they
> > instructed him to break off the visit.
> > 
> > That was only one of many problems reporting on gays in Iraq. Iraqi
> > authorities scoffed at the subject--when not scolding a reporter for
> even
> > asking about it. Some of NEWSWEEK's own local staff were wary of the
> story.
> > Virtually no government officials would sit for an interview. And
> the United
> > Nations human-rights office, which has a big presence in Iraq,
> dodged the
> > subject like a mine field. As with a number of Muslim societies where
> > homosexuality is officially nonexistent but widely practiced, the
> policy in
> > Iraq during 
> 
> > Saddam Hussein's rule was "don't ask, don't tell." But that has
changed.
> > Iraqi LGBT, the London NGO that Nadir works for, says more than 430
> gay men
> > have been murdered in Ir

[FairfieldLife] Re: 430 Gay executions in "liberated" Iraq.

[TurquoiseB]

This is all fascinating to me because between the
ages of 14 and 16 I lived in Morocco, and traveled
in Tunisia and Algeria. My clear memory (this was
in the early 60s) was that homosexuality was far
more openly displayed there than back in the U.S.

It was common to see men holding hands or kissing
on the streets. True, I was a voyeur looking at a
society I wasn't really part of, but my feeling
at the time, and the impression that I got from
my Arab friends at the time, was that homosexuality
was not only considered a normal part of life, but
was nothing much to be ashamed of. 

Compare and contrast to the new religious extremism.

As far as I can tell, pretty much every time the
fanatical religionists get their hands on a society,
it starts to devolve rather than evolve. Can you
imagine what Maharishi ("Better to be dead") Mahesh
Yogi would have decreed if he'd actually managed
to take over governments the way he wanted to?


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Before the US invasion of Iraq, under Sadam Hussein, gays were more
or less
> left alone. Now, with religious fascism on the rise, more than 430
gays have
> been executed since 2003. How ironic, as the neo-cons invaded Iraq
> supposedly to remove a dictator and create a democracy that will spread
> throughout the middle east. Instead, they have unleashed religious
extremism
> in the country, as this article about the execution of gays clearly
details.
> It proves that all the neocons really wanted was to exploit Iraq's oil
> wealth, and that they had no interest in human rights at all. Of course,
> should this surprise us? The Republicans in the US are the part of
bigotry,
> sexism, racism, and homophobia. -=-=-= om-==- Nick
> 
> 
> When militiamen from the Mahdi Army came by the compact, two-story stone
> home in the Doura neighborhood of
>  Baghdad, they
weren't
> looking for Sunnis to harass. They were hunting gays. "Bring us your
son's
> cell phone," one ordered the middle-aged man who came to the gate. They
> wanted to check if his son, Nadir, had been calling foreigners--and
in fact
> he had only hours earlier called this reporter to set up a meeting,
and he
> had repeatedly called a gay nongovernmental organization (NGO) in
London.
> Fortunately, Nadir was ready for them and produced a "clean" phone
he keeps
> for just such a threat. This time they left, but vowed to come back
if they
> found any evidence he was gay--or was talking to undesirable
foreigners. Now
> that   Iraq's
sectarian
> war has cooled off, it's open season on homosexuals and others whose
> lifestyles infuriate religious hardliners.
> 
> Sometimes the act of reporting a story is revealing in
itself--especially
> when it proves particularly difficult. This was the case when
NEWSWEEK began
> looking into the problems of Iraq's homosexuals after hearing reports of
> secret safe houses around Baghdad where many of them were taking
refuge from
> the militias' self-appointed morality police. After weeks of inquiries,
> NEWSWEEK managed to find Nadir and persuade him to arrange a visit
to one of
> the safe houses he helps run. Instead, the Mahdi militia rousted him the
> night before. Established in 2004, the militia is the armed wing of the
> organization led by radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, who has
been an
> implacable foe of the Maliki government. Terrified, Nadir contacted
people
> at the London-based gay NGO that finances the safe house, and they
> instructed him to break off the visit.
> 
> That was only one of many problems reporting on gays in Iraq. Iraqi
> authorities scoffed at the subject--when not scolding a reporter for
even
> asking about it. Some of NEWSWEEK's own local staff were wary of the
story.
> Virtually no government officials would sit for an interview. And
the United
> Nations human-rights office, which has a big presence in Iraq,
dodged the
> subject like a mine field. As with a number of Muslim societies where
> homosexuality is officially nonexistent but widely practiced, the
policy in
> Iraq during 

> Saddam Hussein's rule was "don't ask, don't tell." But that has changed.
> Iraqi LGBT, the London NGO that Nadir works for, says more than 430
gay men
> have been murdered in Iraq since 2003. For the country's beleaguered
gays,
> it's a friendless landscape.
> 
> Many officials say they feel that in a country at war, there are more
> pressing concerns than gay rights. A Ministry of Justice judge rebuked a
> reporter for wasting time on such an issue, noting that "crimes of
sodomy"
> are "very rare" in society and even rarer in the courts. "Most acts of
> homosexual people are being done in dark corners and, with
corruption and
> paying bribes, they will be kept there for a long time, for it is
not on the
> top of our priorities list,