[FairfieldLife] Re: The Value of Nothing - Capitalism is finished !
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXDRNeCFxKQ&NR=1 I understand that you are linking his themes with the Maharishi quote Nabby. But I see it a little differently. It isn't capitalism that Patel is targeting as much as free market dominant capitalism. All markets have a continuum of regulation and freedom. One of our biggest problems in the US is that our system of regulations is corrupted by special interest corporate lobbying. This allows some of our biggest corporations to act in a way that doesn't serve the public good and can even cause disasters like our credit markets. And yet the incentives created by freedom in markets are a fantastic way to get people moving, to create systems of profit that can end up benefiting society through job creation. And then once again regulations assist so that an employer doesn't exploit workers, which has not worked in all of our industries but has helped in some. Looking at working conditions at the turn of the last century we can see that some progress have been made. For example we become shortsighted when we don't include our illegal alien workforce in our agro-business essentially thinking of them as not humans that we need to care about because they are not legally Americans. But we participate in the exploitation by buying food that is artificially cheap with no regard to the lives we are crushing with our food system. The same is true of our addiction to cheep clothes and other products made by countries with no worker protections. I believe that capitalism itself is not the problem but the way we have allowed it to function in our society needs adjustment. The people who argue for totally free markets as well as the people calling to an end of capitalism need to get closer together on the continuum of regulation and freedom which is the way our society works. No longer can we embrace extreme ideology on either side, because we have evidence that neither of them work. What I find compelling about the little I know about Patel's perspective (thanks to you) is that he seems to be approaching this with a reasoned appreciation of the virtues and limitations of both parts of the system. We need to make a more carefully reasoned choice about how we are going to mix these two concepts in our society rather than the random and corporate bullying style that has gotten us into trouble. America needs to change, but we also can't forget that people come to our country from all over the world because of our emphasis on free markets. Even if in practice we have not found the best balance to sustain us as a society yet. >
[FairfieldLife] Re: The Value of Nothing - Capitalism is finished !
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXDRNeCFxKQ&NR=1 > > I understand that you are linking his themes with the Maharishi quote Nabby. > But I see it a little differently. > > It isn't capitalism that Patel is targeting as much as free market dominant > capitalism. All markets have a continuum of regulation and freedom. One of > our biggest problems in the US is that our system of regulations is corrupted > by special interest corporate lobbying. This allows some of our biggest > corporations to act in a way that doesn't serve the public good and can even > cause disasters like our credit markets. > > And yet the incentives created by freedom in markets are a fantastic way to > get people moving, to create systems of profit that can end up benefiting > society through job creation. Excellent distinction. There is a tendency (or thinking below our full potential) to generalize Captitalism (or is it Kapitalism,) with all markets. Often there is actually little corellation. What we have and are increasingly getting is cronyistic elitist statism -- which has NOTHING to do with free markets, particularly free markets at the at the mom and pop micro level. I recently finished, and highly recommend, "Banker to the Poor" by the guy who won the Nobel prize for his work in implementing and promoting micro-finance for the world's poor. Its a breakthrough position, in my view -- giving copious red meat (ok red lentils) to both the right and left (a defunct set of terms, in my view - how can politics and world view, world and individual solutions be limited to one dimension?) Ending world poverty by enabling the 10% of the population to create and grow their open businesses -- getting out from under the hand of exploitative statist mini-Kapitalists who control local politics and markets (an oxymoron -- who control controlled transactions among unfree participants)and enabling the disadvantaged to creatie wealth, dignity, skill base, and a much more textured and robust economy. And then once again regulations assist so that an employer doesn't exploit workers, which has not worked in all of our industries but has helped in some. Looking at working conditions at the turn of the last century we can see that some progress have been made. > > For example we become shortsighted when we don't include our illegal alien > workforce in our agro-business essentially thinking of them as not humans > that we need to care about because they are not legally Americans. But we > participate in the exploitation by buying food that is artificially cheap > with no regard to the lives we are crushing with our food system. The same > is true of our addiction to cheep clothes and other products made by > countries with no worker protections. > > I believe that capitalism itself is not the problem but the way we have > allowed it to function in our society needs adjustment. The people who argue > for totally free markets as well as the people calling to an end of > capitalism need to get closer together on the continuum of regulation and > freedom which is the way our society works. No longer can we embrace extreme > ideology on either side, because we have evidence that neither of them work. > > What I find compelling about the little I know about Patel's perspective > (thanks to you) is that he seems to be approaching this with a reasoned > appreciation of the virtues and limitations of both parts of the system. We > need to make a more carefully reasoned choice about how we are going to mix > these two concepts in our society rather than the random and corporate > bullying style that has gotten us into trouble. > > America needs to change, but we also can't forget that people come to our > country from all over the world because of our emphasis on free markets. > Even if in practice we have not found the best balance to sustain us as a > society yet. > > > > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: The Value of Nothing - Capitalism is finished !
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain wrote: > What we have and are increasingly getting is cronyistic elitist statism -- > which has NOTHING to do with free markets, particularly free markets at the > at the mom and pop micro level. Right on! > > I recently finished, and highly recommend, "Banker to the Poor" by the guy > who won the Nobel prize for his work in implementing and promoting > micro-finance for the world's poor. Its a breakthrough position, in my view - Thanks for the book tip. I just put it on hold at my local "socialist" library! Guys like this are IMO, the true "spiritual" leaders of the world. > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXDRNeCFxKQ&NR=1 > > > > I understand that you are linking his themes with the Maharishi quote > > Nabby. But I see it a little differently. > > > > It isn't capitalism that Patel is targeting as much as free market dominant > > capitalism. All markets have a continuum of regulation and freedom. One > > of our biggest problems in the US is that our system of regulations is > > corrupted by special interest corporate lobbying. This allows some of our > > biggest corporations to act in a way that doesn't serve the public good and > > can even cause disasters like our credit markets. > > > > And yet the incentives created by freedom in markets are a fantastic way to > > get people moving, to create systems of profit that can end up benefiting > > society through job creation. > > > Excellent distinction. There is a tendency (or thinking below our full > potential) to generalize Captitalism (or is it Kapitalism,) with all markets. > Often there is actually little corellation. > > What we have and are increasingly getting is cronyistic elitist statism -- > which has NOTHING to do with free markets, particularly free markets at the > at the mom and pop micro level. > > I recently finished, and highly recommend, "Banker to the Poor" by the guy > who won the Nobel prize for his work in implementing and promoting > micro-finance for the world's poor. Its a breakthrough position, in my view > -- giving copious red meat (ok red lentils) to both the right and left (a > defunct set of terms, in my view - how can politics and world view, world and > individual solutions be limited to one dimension?) Ending world poverty by > enabling the 10% of the population to create and grow their open businesses > -- getting out from under the hand of exploitative statist mini-Kapitalists > who control local politics and markets (an oxymoron -- who control controlled > transactions among unfree participants)and enabling the disadvantaged to > creatie wealth, dignity, skill base, and a much more textured and robust > economy. > > And then once again regulations assist so that an employer doesn't exploit > workers, which has not worked in all of our industries but has helped in > some. Looking at working conditions at the turn of the last century we can > see that some progress have been made. > > > > > For example we become shortsighted when we don't include our illegal alien > > workforce in our agro-business essentially thinking of them as not humans > > that we need to care about because they are not legally Americans. But we > > participate in the exploitation by buying food that is artificially cheap > > with no regard to the lives we are crushing with our food system. The same > > is true of our addiction to cheep clothes and other products made by > > countries with no worker protections. > > > > I believe that capitalism itself is not the problem but the way we have > > allowed it to function in our society needs adjustment. The people who > > argue for totally free markets as well as the people calling to an end of > > capitalism need to get closer together on the continuum of regulation and > > freedom which is the way our society works. No longer can we embrace > > extreme ideology on either side, because we have evidence that neither of > > them work. > > > > What I find compelling about the little I know about Patel's perspective > > (thanks to you) is that he seems to be approaching this with a reasoned > > appreciation of the virtues and limitations of both parts of the system. > > We need to make a more carefully reasoned choice about how we are going to > > mix these two concepts in our society rather than the random and corporate > > bullying style that has gotten us into trouble. > > > > America needs to change, but we also can't forget that people come to our > > country from all over the world because of our emphasis on free markets. > > Even if in practice we have not found the best balance to sustain us as a > > society yet. > > > > > > > > > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: The Value of Nothing - Capitalism is finished !
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain wrote: > > > What we have and are increasingly getting is cronyistic elitist statism -- > > which has NOTHING to do with free markets, particularly free markets at the > > at the mom and pop micro level. > > Right on! > > > > I recently finished, and highly recommend, "Banker to the Poor" by the guy > > who won the Nobel prize for his work in implementing and promoting > > micro-finance for the world's poor. Its a breakthrough position, in my view > > - > > > Thanks for the book tip. I just put it on hold at my local "socialist" > library! Guys like this are IMO, the true "spiritual" leaders of the world. > He and his message are quite amazing. The book starts with Bangladesh (his birth place) claiming its own nationhood and his part of the struggle to free from Pakistan -- which is interesting and inspiring. And goes on to his from scratch, sustained effort, to lend small amounts of capital (yes capital, its not a dirty word) to gut wrenching poor -- mostly women. And the success and transformation of the lowest (economically) 10% of the world. He is quite the deeply felt advocate for the world's poor. And he is scathing regarding traditional banks, businesses, government programs. He is no mouthpiece for the power-elites. Yet he firmly comes out in favor of market-based, small business and job creation as the solution to world poverty NOT most government programs. Very pro NGO, very anti World Development Bank / IMF. While there are some critiques of micro-finance, some valid, some perhaps not so much, this heart in this guy is huge and very inspirational. (And he is Muslim -- which is an interesting side story -- given the sometimes rabid press and invective thrown at Muslims.) > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXDRNeCFxKQ&NR=1 > > > > > > I understand that you are linking his themes with the Maharishi quote > > > Nabby. But I see it a little differently. > > > > > > It isn't capitalism that Patel is targeting as much as free market > > > dominant capitalism. All markets have a continuum of regulation and > > > freedom. One of our biggest problems in the US is that our system of > > > regulations is corrupted by special interest corporate lobbying. This > > > allows some of our biggest corporations to act in a way that doesn't > > > serve the public good and can even cause disasters like our credit > > > markets. > > > > > > And yet the incentives created by freedom in markets are a fantastic way > > > to get people moving, to create systems of profit that can end up > > > benefiting society through job creation. > > > > > > Excellent distinction. There is a tendency (or thinking below our full > > potential) to generalize Captitalism (or is it Kapitalism,) with all > > markets. Often there is actually little corellation. > > > > What we have and are increasingly getting is cronyistic elitist statism -- > > which has NOTHING to do with free markets, particularly free markets at the > > at the mom and pop micro level. > > > > I recently finished, and highly recommend, "Banker to the Poor" by the guy > > who won the Nobel prize for his work in implementing and promoting > > micro-finance for the world's poor. Its a breakthrough position, in my view > > -- giving copious red meat (ok red lentils) to both the right and left (a > > defunct set of terms, in my view - how can politics and world view, world > > and individual solutions be limited to one dimension?) Ending world poverty > > by enabling the 10% of the population to create and grow their open > > businesses -- getting out from under the hand of exploitative statist > > mini-Kapitalists who control local politics and markets (an oxymoron -- who > > control controlled transactions among unfree participants)and enabling the > > disadvantaged to creatie wealth, dignity, skill base, and a much more > > textured and robust economy. > > > > And then once again regulations assist so that an employer doesn't exploit > > workers, which has not worked in all of our industries but has helped in > > some. Looking at working conditions at the turn of the last century we can > > see that some progress have been made. > > > > > > > > For example we become shortsighted when we don't include our illegal > > > alien workforce in our agro-business essentially thinking of them as not > > > humans that we need to care about because they are not legally Americans. > > > But we participate in the exploitation by buying food that is > > > artificially cheap with no regard to the lives we are crushing with our > > > food system. The same is true of our addiction to cheep clothes and > > > other
[FairfieldLife] Re: The Value of Nothing - Capitalism is finished !
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain wrote: > I recently finished, and highly recommend, "Banker to the > Poor" by the guy who won the Nobel prize for his work in > implementing and promoting micro-finance for the world's > poor. Such a fabulous concept. I gave a small chunk of money to the microloan organization Kiva via the Web a couple of years ago, and it's been one of my most satisfying donations, because it keeps *renewing* itself. You choose folks to lend to from a list, and as the borrowers pay back their loans, the funds become available again for new loans. To the donor, it feels as if you're donating over and over again even though you aren't. (Of course, you can always increase the amount you give Kiva to work with.) Point being, there's a huge psychological satisfaction component to this arrangement that you don't get with many other donations, which from your end just seem to go down a black hole. I think that must be part of what makes microloan setups work so well. There are no doubt other organizations on the Web that are doing the same thing as Kiva, but here's its site if you want to have a look to see how it works: http://www.kiva.org Minimum amount to donate for the loan program is $25. (Oh, and you can also get your money back once it's repaid. No interest, just whatever you gave in the first place.)
[FairfieldLife] Re: The Value of Nothing - Capitalism is finished !
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu wrote: > > tartbrain wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > wrote: > > > >> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: > >> > >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXDRNeCFxKQ&NR=1 > >>> > >> I understand that you are linking his themes with the Maharishi quote > >> Nabby. But I see it a little differently. > >> > >> It isn't capitalism that Patel is targeting as much as free market > >> dominant capitalism. All markets have a continuum of regulation and > >> freedom. One of our biggest problems in the US is that our system of > >> regulations is corrupted by special interest corporate lobbying. This > >> allows some of our biggest corporations to act in a way that doesn't serve > >> the public good and can even cause disasters like our credit markets. > >> > >> And yet the incentives created by freedom in markets are a fantastic way > >> to get people moving, to create systems of profit that can end up > >> benefiting society through job creation. > >> > > > > > > Excellent distinction. There is a tendency (or thinking below our full > > potential) to generalize Captitalism (or is it Kapitalism,) with all > > markets. Often there is actually little corellation. > > > > What we have and are increasingly getting is cronyistic elitist statism -- > > which has NOTHING to do with free markets, particularly free markets at the > > at the mom and pop micro level. > > > > I recently finished, and highly recommend, "Banker to the Poor" by the guy > > who won the Nobel prize for his work in implementing and promoting > > micro-finance for the world's poor. Its a breakthrough position, in my view > > -- giving copious red meat (ok red lentils) to both the right and left (a > > defunct set of terms, in my view - how can politics and world view, world > > and individual solutions be limited to one dimension?) Ending world poverty > > by enabling the 10% of the population to create and grow their open > > businesses -- getting out from under the hand of exploitative statist > > mini-Kapitalists who control local politics and markets (an oxymoron -- who > > control controlled transactions among unfree participants)and enabling the > > disadvantaged to creatie wealth, dignity, skill base, and a much more > > textured and robust economy. > > > > And then once again regulations assist so that an employer doesn't exploit > > workers, which has not worked in all of our industries but has helped in > > some. Looking at working conditions at the turn of the last century we can > > see that some progress have been made. > > There was a lot of this kind of writing back in the 1970s. Remember > "Small is Beautiful" and "Human Scale"? Good books. Probably worth re-read. I also read a lot of different > economic books back then in Paul Erdman's economic thrillers where he > explained economics through the medium of a novel. I loved Erdman. I wish there was someone doing his sort of research / writing today. Too bad he didn't > live to see the fiasco that's going on now. > > As I've mentioned here before I really don't think anyone can really > manage a large corporation and those doing so are putting on a charade > (sort of illustrated in the movie "The Informant."). I think the > economy will collapse so bad that we indeed will be truly left a nation > of villages where about everything is locally produced by local small > businesses. You can do a lot of things that way including manufacturing > electronics and small cars. > > Do note that people expect the government to "create jobs". Why not > charge the government with creating small businesses. Yes. And thats a theme of Banker to the Poor. And a related theme is that training, the backbone of "creating jobs" and enabling people to fit in to created jobs is quite inefficient in fighting poverty. His bank, and micro-finance which has grown way beyond his efforts, is all about providing capital (its not a dirty word -- it just at times is used in corrupt ways) to the poor to enable them to create their own business. For example a sewing machine, a set of tools, a village cell phone, buying supplies in bulk, etc. Its his contention that the poor are quite trained in the skills and marketing know-how from from the context of their lives. Their biggest hurdle is not having the capital to enable them to take that big (yet micro in dollar terms -- on the level of a (or several) hundred dollars. > Oh no, that might > interfere with the operations of the mega corporations. > > I also maintain there should have been no bailout of the banks in 2008 > and the ensuing collapse would have created a short economic depression > much less painful than the one we may suffer for decades. The collapse > would have hastened the small business scenario. I have felt the same. And further, tha
[FairfieldLife] Re: The Value of Nothing - Capitalism is finished !
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain wrote: > > > I recently finished, and highly recommend, "Banker to the > > Poor" by the guy who won the Nobel prize for his work in > > implementing and promoting micro-finance for the world's > > poor. > > Such a fabulous concept. > > I gave a small chunk of money to the microloan organization > Kiva via the Web a couple of years ago, and it's been one > of my most satisfying donations, because it keeps *renewing* > itself. > > You choose folks to lend to from a list, and as the > borrowers pay back their loans, the funds become available > again for new loans. To the donor, it feels as if you're > donating over and over again even though you aren't. (Of > course, you can always increase the amount you give Kiva > to work with.) > > Point being, there's a huge psychological satisfaction > component to this arrangement that you don't get with > many other donations, which from your end just seem to > go down a black hole. I think that must be part of what > makes microloan setups work so well. > > There are no doubt other organizations on the Web that > are doing the same thing as Kiva, but here's its site > if you want to have a look to see how it works: > > http://www.kiva.org > > Minimum amount to donate for the loan program is $25. > > (Oh, and you can also get your money back once it's > repaid. No interest, just whatever you gave in the > first place.) Thanks for the link. I was looking for a good micro-loan NGO to donate to. This may be a good one.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Value of Nothing - Capitalism is finished !
tartbrain wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > wrote: > >> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: >> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXDRNeCFxKQ&NR=1 >>> >> I understand that you are linking his themes with the Maharishi quote Nabby. >> But I see it a little differently. >> >> It isn't capitalism that Patel is targeting as much as free market dominant >> capitalism. All markets have a continuum of regulation and freedom. One of >> our biggest problems in the US is that our system of regulations is >> corrupted by special interest corporate lobbying. This allows some of our >> biggest corporations to act in a way that doesn't serve the public good and >> can even cause disasters like our credit markets. >> >> And yet the incentives created by freedom in markets are a fantastic way to >> get people moving, to create systems of profit that can end up benefiting >> society through job creation. >> > > > Excellent distinction. There is a tendency (or thinking below our full > potential) to generalize Captitalism (or is it Kapitalism,) with all markets. > Often there is actually little corellation. > > What we have and are increasingly getting is cronyistic elitist statism -- > which has NOTHING to do with free markets, particularly free markets at the > at the mom and pop micro level. > > I recently finished, and highly recommend, "Banker to the Poor" by the guy > who won the Nobel prize for his work in implementing and promoting > micro-finance for the world's poor. Its a breakthrough position, in my view > -- giving copious red meat (ok red lentils) to both the right and left (a > defunct set of terms, in my view - how can politics and world view, world and > individual solutions be limited to one dimension?) Ending world poverty by > enabling the 10% of the population to create and grow their open businesses > -- getting out from under the hand of exploitative statist mini-Kapitalists > who control local politics and markets (an oxymoron -- who control controlled > transactions among unfree participants)and enabling the disadvantaged to > creatie wealth, dignity, skill base, and a much more textured and robust > economy. > > And then once again regulations assist so that an employer doesn't exploit > workers, which has not worked in all of our industries but has helped in > some. Looking at working conditions at the turn of the last century we can > see that some progress have been made. There was a lot of this kind of writing back in the 1970s. Remember "Small is Beautiful" and "Human Scale"? I also read a lot of different economic books back then in Paul Erdman's economic thrillers where he explained economics through the medium of a novel. Too bad he didn't live to see the fiasco that's going on now. As I've mentioned here before I really don't think anyone can really manage a large corporation and those doing so are putting on a charade (sort of illustrated in the movie "The Informant."). I think the economy will collapse so bad that we indeed will be truly left a nation of villages where about everything is locally produced by local small businesses. You can do a lot of things that way including manufacturing electronics and small cars. Do note that people expect the government to "create jobs". Why not charge the government with creating small businesses. Oh no, that might interfere with the operations of the mega corporations. I also maintain there should have been no bailout of the banks in 2008 and the ensuing collapse would have created a short economic depression much less painful than the one we may suffer for decades. The collapse would have hastened the small business scenario.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Value of Nothing - Capitalism is finished !
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 7:25 PM, tartbrain wrote: > > > > > http://www.kiva.org > > > > Minimum amount to donate for the loan program is $25. > > > > (Oh, and you can also get your money back once it's > > repaid. No interest, just whatever you gave in the > > first place.) > > > Thanks for the link. I was looking for a good micro-loan NGO to donate to. > This may be a good one. > > > I just loaned money to Djuraboy Norkulov to upgrade his farm in Tajikistan. I wish him well. -- I've got nothing against God. It's his fan club I can't stand.
