subject:"\[FairfieldLife\] Re\: Yagna By Choice. It Works"

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> On Dec 9, 2005, at 2:34 PM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> >  Let's see...I believe the context of my post was
> >  MMY's reported notion that very young children
> >  shouldn't be taught second languages because it
> >  causes some kind of "subtle confusion."
> 
> And what exactly gives you the impression that MMY knows *anything* 
> about what children need, or what causes confusion or anything
> else?  All the experience he's had raising them?

I don't believe I said I had that impression.

Do you think you're reading more than is there
into what I'm writing?

> >  I'm having a little trouble seeing how the things
> >  you list have anything to do with that.  Would you
> >  care to elaborate?
> 
> I'm obviously experiencing subtle confusion. Must have been the 
Spanish 
> I took in grade school.
> 
> Sal
>

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

2005-12-09 Thread Sal Sunshine

On Dec 9, 2005, at 2:34 PM, authfriend wrote:

 Let's see...I believe the context of my post was
 MMY's reported notion that very young children
 shouldn't be taught second languages because it
 causes some kind of "subtle confusion."

And what exactly gives you the impression that MMY knows *anything* about what children need, or what causes confusion or anything else?  All the experience he's had raising them?

 I'm having a little trouble seeing how the things
 you list have anything to do with that.  Would you
 care to elaborate?

I'm obviously experiencing subtle confusion. Must have been the Spanish I took in grade school.

Sal

[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> Considering the track record of the MSAE, would you trust your 
> children, if you had them, to the teachers there?

Let's see...I believe the context of my post was
MMY's reported notion that very young children
shouldn't be taught second languages because it
causes some kind of "subtle confusion."

I'm having a little trouble seeing how the things
you list have anything to do with that.  Would you
care to elaborate?

(And frankly, I don't take what you knee-jerk
anti-TMOers have to say about the horrors of the
TMO any more seriously than I do what the TBers
have to say about its glories.  I consider the
perspective of both groups rather seriously warped.)

> Let's see...by now most of the decent teachers have long ago left, 
> not willing to work for no pay, no benefits, and for an oftentimes 
> capricious administration that routinely makes decisions that show 
> a breath-taking lack of concern for anyone, including the kids.  
> Now personally I can't imagine why anyone would object to those 
> things, but there you have it.  And the few halfway decent teachers 
> that have remained teach the boys, since the education of girls 
> apparently doesn't matter at all.  This basically gives the parents 
> of girls few options except to spend even more $$ and time hiring 
> private tutors.
> 
> And the parents kids with any kind of disability, be it learning, 
> speech, behavior, etc are told to either stuff it or take care of 
> it on their own, since, of course, children going to school in 
> paradise don't have those issues.
> 
> Sal
> 
> 
> On Dec 9, 2005, at 11:11 AM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> >  That out of the way, do you have any relevant comment
> >  on what I suggested, i.e., that we don't know enough
> >  about what MMY means to come to the conclusion, as you
> >  did, that he isn't to be trusted with children's
> >  education?
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> Considering the track record of the MSAE, would you trust your 
> children, if you had them, to the teachers there?

The track record has always seemed rather good. Has this changed?

> 
> Let's see...by now most of the decent teachers have long ago left, 
not 
> willing to work for no pay, no benefits, and for an oftentimes 
> capricious administration that routinely makes decisions that show 
a 
> breath-taking lack of concern for anyone, including the kids. 

I can't comment on these assertions, but has the school changed inthe 
past few months and years. National Merit Scholarship and semi-
finalists don't grow on trees. Nor do exceptionaly high scores on 
standardized tests.

 Now 
> personally I can't imagine why anyone would object to those things, 
but 
> there you have it.  And the few halfway decent teachers that have 
> remained teach the boys, since the education of girls apparently 
> doesn't matter at all.  This basically gives the parents of girls 
few 
> options except to spend even more $$ and time hiring private tutors.
> 

Do you have documentation that there is such a dichotomy in 
educational treatment?

> And the parents kids with any kind of disability, be it learning, 
> speech, behavior, etc are told to either stuff it or take care of 
it on 
> their own, since, of course, children going to school in paradise 
don't 
> have those issues.

Heh. Screening takes all forms. Few public charter schools are 
willing to deal with extreme special needs kids and the way Arizona 
law is set up, they don't have to. Aside from wheelchair access 
andthe like, charter schools aren't required to be equiped for 
arbitrary special needs because, by definition, charter schools are 
specializing in special needs already.

Most private schools operate the same way: if your child doesn't fit 
the curriculum or facility, then they don't modify the curriculum or 
the facilities to accomidate the child -- the child has to go 
somewhere that DOES accomidate them.
> 

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[...]
> The question in my mind is whether the confusion MMY
> is talking about is on such a subtle level that you
> *wouldn't* detect it as such--the point being that we
> really don't know what he's referring to.
> 
> Until we have a clearer idea, it makes no sense to
> assume he's contradicting established scientific 
> fact.
>

And of course, we don't know what is being referred to in the first 
place, since MY recollection is merely that MMY didn't like second 
languages being taught outside their country-of-use because it was 
inefficient and [presumeably] a waste of time.

My first Japanese teacher is finishing up his doctorate in educational 
linguistics (my term). He's been doing research on interesting things 
like how native speakers move their eyes while reading their native 
language as opposed to secondary language speakers. Apparently there's 
a very striking difference that is quite consistent.

His own comments in class,based on his years of study inthe field, 
about the utility of foreign language instruction outside a native-
speaking country are very inline with what *I* have heard that MMY say 
about it.

Ihaven't heard before  that MMY says its not a good to learn a second 
laguage early on. In fact, given that most educated Indians are at 
least somewhat bilingual from exposure in school, including himself and 
apparently Gurudev, that would be rather silly.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

2005-12-09 Thread Sal Sunshine

Considering the track record of the MSAE, would you trust your children, if you had them, to the teachers there?

Let's see...by now most of the decent teachers have long ago left, not willing to work for no pay, no benefits, and for an oftentimes capricious administration that routinely makes decisions that show a breath-taking lack of concern for anyone, including the kids.  Now personally I can't imagine why anyone would object to those things, but there you have it.  And the few halfway decent teachers that have remained teach the boys, since the education of girls apparently doesn't matter at all.  This basically gives the parents of girls few options except to spend even more $$ and time hiring private tutors.

And the parents kids with any kind of disability, be it learning, speech, behavior, etc are told to either stuff it or take care of it on their own, since, of course, children going to school in paradise don't have those issues.

Sal


On Dec 9, 2005, at 11:11 AM, authfriend wrote:

 That out of the way, do you have any relevant comment
 on what I suggested, i.e., that we don't know enough
 about what MMY means to come to the conclusion, as you
 did, that he isn't to be trusted with children's
 education?

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works



On Dec 9, 2005, at 1:08 PM, authfriend wrote:Now, why do you think *that* is? I don't like wasting my time on constant arguments?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Dec 9, 2005, at 12:11 PM, authfriend wrote:
 > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> On Dec 9, 2005, at 11:29 AM, authfriend wrote:
> >>> How odd, you seem to have deleted what I went on
> >>> to say, which made it clear I wasn't questioning
> >>> the accepted scientific fact.
> >>
> >> It wasn't clear to me.
> >
> > Well, let's have another look, shall we?  (Since
> > you snipped it again.)
> > 
> > The "subtle confusion" LBS refers to isn't necessarily
> > in conflict with the principle that the younger the
> > better in terms of second-language acquisition. The
> > purported confusion may be on an entirely different
> > level than that of facility in a second language.
> >
> > It isn't impossible that the optimal situation, in
> > MMY's view, is a sort of trade-off between acquiring
> > second-language facility and avoiding the subtle
> > confusion. In other words, an older child may still
> > be able to learn a second language well enough to
> > become reasonably fluent in it at a point when learning
> > it may no longer cause the subtle confusion.
> >
> > Or maybe not. But obviously we don't know enough, on
> > the basis of LBS's account, to say either way.
> > 
> > Where in what I wrote do you see any suggestion
> > that I was questioning accepted scientific fact?
> >
> > I repeat: I think you just *assumed*, in a knee-jerk
> > fashion, that I would question established scientific
> > fact because you have me erroneously pegged as a
> > "true believer" (or just hope you can convince others
> > to think I am).
> >
> > And therefore you didn't pay much attention to the
> > rest of what I said.  If you had, you'd have seen
> > that I was actually accepting as a given that
> > children learn languages more easily the younger
> > they are.  (One hint: that's why I referred to it
> > as a "principle" rather than a "theory.")
> >
> >> Despite repeated accusations of having some hidden agenda in the
> >> quoting of your email messages, there exists no such agenda, 
> >> other than in your own consciousness.
> >
> > Oh, goodness, it's not just *my* "email messages" (I
> > assume you mean posts to FFL and alt.m.t) by any means.
> > You even snip portions of your own earlier posts when
> > they might conflict with or detract from whatever you're
> > saying in your current post.  In any case, the snipping
> > is always in your own interest.
> >
> > I'm quite willing to believe, however, that the
> > agenda may not be conscious.  I suspect it's just
> > become second nature, and you do it without even
> > thinking about it.
> >
> > That out of the way, do you have any relevant comment
> > on what I suggested, i.e., that we don't know enough
> > about what MMY means to come to the conclusion, as you
> > did, that he isn't to be trusted with children's
> > education?
> 
> LOL. You read way too much into these things.
> 
> Why do you think that is?

You seem to be assuming I think it's the case,
but obviously I don't.

I note that you *still* can't address what I
suggested; nor are you able to say where in
what I wrote you saw any hint that I was
questioning established scientific facts.

Now, why do you think *that* is?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

2005-12-09 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > wrote:
> > snippage> 
> > > > My experience has been that as a born English speaker I 
found 
> > > > no subtle confusion when very young being introduced to a 
> > > > language of the country I was in. For example, learning 
Spanish 
> > > > in Mexico, because I heard and spoke both languages daily. I 
> > > > also rapidly forgot the non-English language after leaving 
its 
> > > > country of origin.
> > > 
> > > The question in my mind is whether the confusion MMY
> > > is talking about is on such a subtle level that you
> > > *wouldn't* detect it as such--the point being that we
> > > really don't know what he's referring to.
> > 
> > I mean no disrespect to him or to you, but if it is that subtle, 
> > from a practical standpoint, who cares?
> 
> Sure, obviously it's an individual decision whether
> you want to worry about it on the basis of something
> MMY has said.  I'm not advocating either way, and for
> all I know MMY could be completely wrong about it.
> 
> I'm just saying that on the basis of what very little
> we know, it's not impossible that something could
> get screwed up on a very subtle level that would have
> some negative impact on grosser levels without the person
> necessarily being able to make the connection, or even
> realizing there had *been* a screwup.  And if so, it
> might be something you'd want to avoid if you could,
> even if it did mean sacrificing some degree of ease
> of learning a second language as a tradeoff.
> 
> Again, all I'm saying is that we can't rule this
> possibility out without knowing more about what MMY
> means.  I'm not suggesting anybody even worry about
> it if they don't feel it's worth it.  Just pointing
> out that the original conclusion that MMY can't be
> trusted with children's education in this regard 
> isn't warranted on the basis of what information we
> have.
> 
> There's just this knee-jerk kind of reaction that
> many here have, that if something MMY says doesn't
> immediately make perfect sense to us on its face,
> therefore it must be crazy and wrong.  Maybe it is
> and maybe it isn't, but often the assumption is
> made on a very superficial basis.
> 
> That's really all I'm getting at.
> 
Oh OK. Yes, I agree with you.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> snippage> 
> > > My experience has been that as a born English speaker I found 
> > > no subtle confusion when very young being introduced to a 
> > > language of the country I was in. For example, learning Spanish 
> > > in Mexico, because I heard and spoke both languages daily. I 
> > > also rapidly forgot the non-English language after leaving its 
> > > country of origin.
> > 
> > The question in my mind is whether the confusion MMY
> > is talking about is on such a subtle level that you
> > *wouldn't* detect it as such--the point being that we
> > really don't know what he's referring to.
> 
> I mean no disrespect to him or to you, but if it is that subtle, 
> from a practical standpoint, who cares?

Sure, obviously it's an individual decision whether
you want to worry about it on the basis of something
MMY has said.  I'm not advocating either way, and for
all I know MMY could be completely wrong about it.

I'm just saying that on the basis of what very little
we know, it's not impossible that something could
get screwed up on a very subtle level that would have
some negative impact on grosser levels without the person
necessarily being able to make the connection, or even
realizing there had *been* a screwup.  And if so, it
might be something you'd want to avoid if you could,
even if it did mean sacrificing some degree of ease
of learning a second language as a tradeoff.

Again, all I'm saying is that we can't rule this
possibility out without knowing more about what MMY
means.  I'm not suggesting anybody even worry about
it if they don't feel it's worth it.  Just pointing
out that the original conclusion that MMY can't be
trusted with children's education in this regard 
isn't warranted on the basis of what information we
have.

There's just this knee-jerk kind of reaction that
many here have, that if something MMY says doesn't
immediately make perfect sense to us on its face,
therefore it must be crazy and wrong.  Maybe it is
and maybe it isn't, but often the assumption is
made on a very superficial basis.

That's really all I'm getting at.

 My benchmark for such 
> things even as a child has been if it is creating undue strain, 
> don't bother. On the other hand, if something seems readily 
> available, take advantage of it...
> 
> Reminds me of a larger issue, sort of related to the emotional 
> healing vs TM discussion. After I had been meditating for awhile 
> and been exposed to all of the esoteric Indian stuff and tried some
> of it on for size, I realized that as a person of the world, with a 
> finite amount of time to devote to spiritual practice, I had to use 
> common sense in what I adopted vs not.
> 
> This then led to a growing sense of freedom that it was I who was 
> most interested in enlightening myself, vs blindly accepting and 
> following the precepts of the saints. 
> 
> It eventually made for a much more interesting journey, being 
> empowered to deliberately choose from a menu of thought and 
> practice what best suited my personal spiritual development.
> 
> > Until we have a clearer idea, it makes no sense to
> > assume he's contradicting established scientific 
> > fact.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

On Dec 9, 2005, at 12:11 PM, authfriend wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Dec 9, 2005, at 11:29 AM, authfriend wrote: How odd, you seem to have deleted what I went on to say, which made it clear I wasn't questioning the accepted scientific fact. It wasn't clear to me. Well, let's have another look, shall we? (Since you snipped it again.) The "subtle confusion" LBS refers to isn't necessarily in conflict with the principle that the younger the better in terms of second-language acquisition. The purported confusion may be on an entirely different level than that of facility in a second language. It isn't impossible that the optimal situation, in MMY's view, is a sort of trade-off between acquiring second-language facility and avoiding the subtle confusion. In other words, an older child may still be able to learn a second language well enough to become reasonably fluent in it at a point when learning it may no longer cause the subtle confusion. Or maybe not. But obviously we don't know enough, on the basis of LBS's account, to say either way. Where in what I wrote do you see any suggestion that I was questioning accepted scientific fact? I repeat: I think you just *assumed*, in a knee-jerk fashion, that I would question established scientific fact because you have me erroneously pegged as a "true believer" (or just hope you can convince others to think I am). And therefore you didn't pay much attention to the rest of what I said. If you had, you'd have seen that I was actually accepting as a given that children learn languages more easily the younger they are. (One hint: that's why I referred to it as a "principle" rather than a "theory.") Despite repeated accusations of having some hidden agenda in the quoting of your email messages, there exists no such agenda, other than in your own consciousness. Oh, goodness, it's not just *my* "email messages" (I assume you mean posts to FFL and alt.m.t) by any means. You even snip portions of your own earlier posts when they might conflict with or detract from whatever you're saying in your current post. In any case, the snipping is always in your own interest. I'm quite willing to believe, however, that the agenda may not be conscious. I suspect it's just become second nature, and you do it without even thinking about it. That out of the way, do you have any relevant comment on what I suggested, i.e., that we don't know enough about what MMY means to come to the conclusion, as you did, that he isn't to be trusted with children's education? LOL. You read way too much into these things. Why do you think that is?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

2005-12-09 Thread Patrick Gillam

--- Rick Archer wrote:
> 
> A friend of mine told me a very funny story 
> about being called up in front of his high 
> school class to speak when he happened to 
> have an erection. 

At what point in high school does a male *not* have an erection?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Dec 9, 2005, at 11:29 AM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> > How odd, you seem to have deleted what I went on
> > to say, which made it clear I wasn't questioning
> > the accepted scientific fact.
> 
> It wasn't clear to me.

Well, let's have another look, shall we?  (Since
you snipped it again.)

The "subtle confusion" LBS refers to isn't necessarily
in conflict with the principle that the younger the
better in terms of second-language acquisition. The
purported confusion may be on an entirely different
level than that of facility in a second language.

It isn't impossible that the optimal situation, in
MMY's view, is a sort of trade-off between acquiring
second-language facility and avoiding the subtle
confusion. In other words, an older child may still
be able to learn a second language well enough to
become reasonably fluent in it at a point when learning
it may no longer cause the subtle confusion.

Or maybe not. But obviously we don't know enough, on
the basis of LBS's account, to say either way.

Where in what I wrote do you see any suggestion
that I was questioning accepted scientific fact?

I repeat: I think you just *assumed*, in a knee-jerk
fashion, that I would question established scientific
fact because you have me erroneously pegged as a
"true believer" (or just hope you can convince others
to think I am).

And therefore you didn't pay much attention to the
rest of what I said.  If you had, you'd have seen
that I was actually accepting as a given that
children learn languages more easily the younger
they are.  (One hint: that's why I referred to it
as a "principle" rather than a "theory.")

> Despite repeated accusations of having some hidden agenda in the  
> quoting of your email messages, there exists no such agenda, other  
> than in your own consciousness.

Oh, goodness, it's not just *my* "email messages" (I
assume you mean posts to FFL and alt.m.t) by any means.
You even snip portions of your own earlier posts when
they might conflict with or detract from whatever you're
saying in your current post.  In any case, the snipping
is always in your own interest.

I'm quite willing to believe, however, that the
agenda may not be conscious.  I suspect it's just
become second nature, and you do it without even
thinking about it.

That out of the way, do you have any relevant comment
on what I suggested, i.e., that we don't know enough
about what MMY means to come to the conclusion, as you
did, that he isn't to be trusted with children's
education?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

2005-12-09 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
snippage> 
> > My experience has been that as a born English speaker I found no 
> > subtle confusion when very young being introduced to a language 
of 
> > the country I was in. For example, learning Spanish in Mexico, 
> > because I heard and spoke both languages daily. I also rapidly 
> > forgot the non-English language after leaving its country of 
origin.
> 
> The question in my mind is whether the confusion MMY
> is talking about is on such a subtle level that you
> *wouldn't* detect it as such--the point being that we
> really don't know what he's referring to.

I mean no disrespect to him or to you, but if it is that subtle, 
from a practical standpoint, who cares? My benchmark for such things 
even as a child has been if it is creating undue strain, don't 
bother. On the other hand, if something seems readily available, 
take advantage of it...

Reminds me of a larger issue, sort of related to the emotional 
healing vs TM discussion. After I had been meditating for awhile and 
been exposed to all of the esoteric Indian stuff and tried some of 
it on for size, I realized that as a person of the world, with a 
finite amount of time to devote to spiritual practice, I had to use 
common sense in what I adopted vs not.

This then led to a growing sense of freedom that it was I who was 
most interested in enlightening myself, vs blindly accepting and 
following the precepts of the saints. 

It eventually made for a much more interesting journey, being 
empowered to deliberately choose from a menu of thought and practice 
what best suited my personal spiritual development.

> Until we have a clearer idea, it makes no sense to
> assume he's contradicting established scientific 
> fact.
>

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works



On Dec 9, 2005, at 11:29 AM, authfriend wrote:How odd, you seem to have deleted what I went on to say, which made it clear I wasn't questioning the accepted scientific fact. It wasn't clear to me.Despite repeated accusations of having some hidden agenda in the quoting of your email messages, there exists no such agenda, other than in your own consciousness.DISCLAIMER: The above message contains material quoted from another, longer, message. This is done for the sake of conciseness and brevity. Any perceived other reason is solely the responsibility of the reader. Any similarity to email messages existing or deleted is purely coincidental. Any reading of the message/email, or clipping/cut-&-pasting/ or verbal repetition of  message/email constitutes acceptance of the terms of this disclaimer.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > > > On Dec 8, 2005, at 4:51 PM, L B Shriver wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > I have found it interesting that at MSAE Maharishi doesn't 
> > > > > allow 2nd language acquisition at the younger age (he may 
> make 
> > > > > an exception for Sanskrit) because he claims that for the
> > > > > youngster to speak something other than the "mother tongue" 
> > > > > creates some subtle kind of confusioneven though, as you 
> note, 
> > > > > it is the ideal time for language acquistion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does anyone have more precise information on this?
> > > > 
> > > > I asked my wife who has a masters in Infant development. Do 
it 
> > > > BEFORE elementary school.
> > > > 
> > > > Would you trust *your* children to Mahesh's theories?
> > > 
> > > Would you trust rumors that may not ahve any basis in fact in 
> order 
> > > to pass judgement on someone?
> > 
> > Even if it's true as stated by LBS, to decide not to
> > trust one's children to MMY because his "theories" are
> > not the same as those of someone who has a master's in
> > infant development is a knee-jerk, thoughtless
> > conclusion.
> > 
> > The "subtle confusion" LBS refers to isn't necessarily
> > in conflict with the principle that the younger the
> > better in terms of second-language acquisition.  The
> > purported confusion may be on an entirely different
> > level than that of facility in a second language.
> > 
> > It isn't impossible that the optimal situation, in
> > MMY's view, is a sort of trade-off between acquiring
> > second-language facility and avoiding the subtle
> > confusion.  In other words, an older child may still
> > be able to learn a second language well enough to 
> > become reasonably fluent in it at a point when learning
> > it may no longer cause the subtle confusion.
> > 
> > Or maybe not.  But obviously we don't know enough, on
> > the basis of LBS's account, to say either way.
> 
> My experience has been that as a born English speaker I found no 
> subtle confusion when very young being introduced to a language of 
> the country I was in. For example, learning Spanish in Mexico, 
> because I heard and spoke both languages daily. I also rapidly 
> forgot the non-English language after leaving its country of origin.

The question in my mind is whether the confusion MMY
is talking about is on such a subtle level that you
*wouldn't* detect it as such--the point being that we
really don't know what he's referring to.

Until we have a clearer idea, it makes no sense to
assume he's contradicting established scientific 
fact.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Dec 9, 2005, at 10:49 AM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> >> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Dec 8, 2005, at 4:51 PM, L B Shriver wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
>  I have found it interesting that at MSAE Maharishi doesn't
>  allow 2nd language acquisition at the younger age (he may make
>  an exception for Sanskrit) because he claims that for the
>  youngster to speak something other than the "mother tongue"
>  creates some subtle kind of confusioneven though, as you note,
>  it is the ideal time for language acquistion.
> 
>  Does anyone have more precise information on this?
> 
> >>>
> >>> I asked my wife who has a masters in Infant development. Do it
> >>> BEFORE elementary school.
> >>>
> >>> Would you trust *your* children to Mahesh's theories?
> >>
> >> Would you trust rumors that may not ahve any basis in fact in 
> >> order to pass judgement on someone?
> >
> > Even if it's true as stated by LBS, to decide not to
> > trust one's children to MMY because his "theories" are
> > not the same as those of someone who has a master's in
> > infant development is a knee-jerk, thoughtless
> > conclusion.
> 
> It really has nothing to do with a degree or any reaction but that  
> this an accepted scientific fact.

How odd, you seem to have deleted what I went on
to say, which made it clear I wasn't questioning
the accepted scientific fact.

I'm sure it was inadvertent.  You read the first
paragraph of my response, jumped to the erroneous
conclusion that I was disputing the science, and
decided the rest of what I said must be more of the
same and could therefore be ignored.

Here, let me give you another chance to read what
you snipped, so you can take a stab at making a
relevant response:

The "subtle confusion" LBS refers to isn't necessarily
in conflict with the principle that the younger the
better in terms of second-language acquisition. The
purported confusion may be on an entirely different
level than that of facility in a second language.

It isn't impossible that the optimal situation, in
MMY's view, is a sort of trade-off between acquiring
second-language facility and avoiding the subtle
confusion. In other words, an older child may still
be able to learn a second language well enough to
become reasonably fluent in it at a point when learning
it may no longer cause the subtle confusion.

Or maybe not. But obviously we don't know enough, on
the basis of LBS's account, to say either way.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

2005-12-09 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > > On Dec 8, 2005, at 4:51 PM, L B Shriver wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I have found it interesting that at MSAE Maharishi doesn't 
> > > > allow 2nd language acquisition at the younger age (he may 
make 
> > > > an exception for Sanskrit) because he claims that for the
> > > > youngster to speak something other than the "mother tongue" 
> > > > creates some subtle kind of confusioneven though, as you 
note, 
> > > > it is the ideal time for language acquistion.
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone have more precise information on this?
> > > 
> > > I asked my wife who has a masters in Infant development. Do it 
> > > BEFORE elementary school.
> > > 
> > > Would you trust *your* children to Mahesh's theories?
> > 
> > Would you trust rumors that may not ahve any basis in fact in 
order 
> > to pass judgement on someone?
> 
> Even if it's true as stated by LBS, to decide not to
> trust one's children to MMY because his "theories" are
> not the same as those of someone who has a master's in
> infant development is a knee-jerk, thoughtless
> conclusion.
> 
> The "subtle confusion" LBS refers to isn't necessarily
> in conflict with the principle that the younger the
> better in terms of second-language acquisition.  The
> purported confusion may be on an entirely different
> level than that of facility in a second language.
> 
> It isn't impossible that the optimal situation, in
> MMY's view, is a sort of trade-off between acquiring
> second-language facility and avoiding the subtle
> confusion.  In other words, an older child may still
> be able to learn a second language well enough to 
> become reasonably fluent in it at a point when learning
> it may no longer cause the subtle confusion.
> 
> Or maybe not.  But obviously we don't know enough, on
> the basis of LBS's account, to say either way.
>

My experience has been that as a born English speaker I found no 
subtle confusion when very young being introduced to a language of 
the country I was in. For example, learning Spanish in Mexico, 
because I heard and spoke both languages daily. I also rapidly 
forgot the non-English language after leaving its country of origin. 






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

On Dec 9, 2005, at 10:49 AM, authfriend wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Dec 8, 2005, at 4:51 PM, L B Shriver wrote: I have found it interesting that at MSAE Maharishi doesn't allow 2nd language acquisition at the younger age (he may make an exception for Sanskrit) because he claims that for the youngster to speak something other than the "mother tongue" creates some subtle kind of confusion—even though, as you note, it is the ideal time for language acquistion. Does anyone have more precise information on this? I asked my wife who has a masters in Infant development. Do it BEFORE elementary school. Would you trust *your* children to Mahesh's theories? Would you trust rumors that may not ahve any basis in fact in order to pass judgement on someone? Even if it's true as stated by LBS, to decide not to trust one's children to MMY because his "theories" are not the same as those of someone who has a master's in infant development is a knee-jerk, thoughtless conclusion. It really has nothing to do with a degree or any reaction but that this an accepted scientific fact.Take it or leave it, it doesn't really matter to me.On a separate note I do know a number of yogis who used sadhana to help with knowledge acquisition and retention, often with great effect. Typically sadhanas of Jupiterian deities are of wonderful assistance. Now with growing recognition of neuroplasticity and the fact that the neural hardware tends to morph itself to the consciousness of the person--old neural pathways are not written in stone. This is wonderful news for education, recovery from abuse/addictions or criminal rehabilitation. Reminds me of a movie where criminals were put in suspended animation instead of jail and their neural-pathways "retrained" using computers linked the body-hardware (i.e. the brain/nervous system).

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Dec 8, 2005, at 4:51 PM, L B Shriver wrote:
> > 
> > > I have found it interesting that at MSAE Maharishi doesn't 
> > > allow 2nd language acquisition at the younger age (he may make 
> > > an exception for Sanskrit) because he claims that for the
> > > youngster to speak something other than the "mother tongue" 
> > > creates some subtle kind of confusioneven though, as you note, 
> > > it is the ideal time for language acquistion.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have more precise information on this?
> > 
> > I asked my wife who has a masters in Infant development. Do it 
> > BEFORE elementary school.
> > 
> > Would you trust *your* children to Mahesh's theories?
> 
> Would you trust rumors that may not ahve any basis in fact in order 
> to pass judgement on someone?

Even if it's true as stated by LBS, to decide not to
trust one's children to MMY because his "theories" are
not the same as those of someone who has a master's in
infant development is a knee-jerk, thoughtless
conclusion.

The "subtle confusion" LBS refers to isn't necessarily
in conflict with the principle that the younger the
better in terms of second-language acquisition.  The
purported confusion may be on an entirely different
level than that of facility in a second language.

It isn't impossible that the optimal situation, in
MMY's view, is a sort of trade-off between acquiring
second-language facility and avoiding the subtle
confusion.  In other words, an older child may still
be able to learn a second language well enough to 
become reasonably fluent in it at a point when learning
it may no longer cause the subtle confusion.

Or maybe not.  But obviously we don't know enough, on
the basis of LBS's account, to say either way.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

2005-12-09 Thread Rick Archer

on 12/9/05 5:01 AM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> 
>>> It *was* kinda embarrassing; I had to buy some baggy
>>> pants for the duration. Fortunately I was on vacation
>>> and not doing training classes at the time, otherwise
>>> the students would've been making snide comments about
>>> my new "laser pointer."  :-)
>>> 
>>> But at least now I know the secret of Billy and Mick's
>>> onstage charisma.
>> 
>> When I'm not sleeping (I assume) and am rounding, the laser
>> pointer is almost ever present.  One of Nature's little
>> impractacle jokes, I suspose.
> 
> Having a laser pointer with the button stuck in the ON
> position is actually not that unusual for men who are
> engaging in extended periods of meditation, in my
> experience.  Kundalini awakening, and all that.

A friend of mine told me a very funny story about being called up in front
of his high school class to speak when he happened to have an erection. It
was hilarious as he told it.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

On Dec 9, 2005, at 7:49 AM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Dec 9, 2005, at 3:36 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:On Dec 8, 2005, at 4:51 PM, L B Shriver wrote: I have found it interesting that at MSAE Maharishi doesn't allow 2nd language acquisition at the younger age (he may make an exception for Sanskrit) because he claims that for the youngster to speak something other than the "mother tongue" creates some subtle kind of confusion—even though, as you note, it is the ideal time for language acquistion. Does anyone have more precise information on this? L B S I asked my wife who has a masters in Infant development. Do it BEFORE elementary school. Would you trust *your* children to Mahesh's theories?Would you trust rumors that may not ahve any basis in fact in order to pass judgement on someone? "Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings -- that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide." Was that directed to me, or to you? Anyone.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Dec 9, 2005, at 3:36 AM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On Dec 8, 2005, at 4:51 PM, L B Shriver wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> I have found it interesting that at MSAE Maharishi doesn't allow
> >>> 2nd language acquisition
> >>> at the younger age (he may make an exception for Sanskrit)
> >>>
> > because
> >
> >>> he claims that for the
> >>> youngster to speak something other than the "mother tongue"
> >>>
> > creates
> >
> >>> some subtle kind of
> >>> confusioneven though, as you note, it is the ideal time for
> >>> language acquistion.
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone have more precise information on this?
> >>>
> >>> L B S
> >>>
> >>
> >> I asked my wife who has a masters in Infant development. Do it
> >>
> > BEFORE
> >
> >> elementary school.
> >>
> >> Would you trust *your* children to Mahesh's theories?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Would you trust rumors that may not ahve any basis in fact in 
order
> > to pass judgement on someone?
> 
> "Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not 
believe  
> what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher.  
> But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be  
> kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all 
beings  
> -- that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide."
>

Was that directed to me, or to you?






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

On Dec 9, 2005, at 3:36 AM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Dec 8, 2005, at 4:51 PM, L B Shriver wrote: I have found it interesting that at MSAE Maharishi doesn't allow 2nd language acquisition at the younger age (he may make an exception for Sanskrit) because he claims that for the youngster to speak something other than the "mother tongue" creates some subtle kind of confusion—even though, as you note, it is the ideal time for language acquistion. Does anyone have more precise information on this? L B S I asked my wife who has a masters in Infant development. Do it BEFORE elementary school. Would you trust *your* children to Mahesh's theories? Would you trust rumors that may not ahve any basis in fact in order to pass judgement on someone? "Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings -- that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide."

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

2005-12-09 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> 
> > It *was* kinda embarrassing; I had to buy some baggy
> > pants for the duration. Fortunately I was on vacation
> > and not doing training classes at the time, otherwise
> > the students would've been making snide comments about
> > my new "laser pointer."  :-)
> > 
> > But at least now I know the secret of Billy and Mick's
> > onstage charisma.
> 
> When I'm not sleeping (I assume) and am rounding, the laser 
> pointer is almost ever present.  One of Nature's little 
> impractacle jokes, I suspose.

Having a laser pointer with the button stuck in the ON
position is actually not that unusual for men who are
engaging in extended periods of meditation, in my
experience.  Kundalini awakening, and all that.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Dec 8, 2005, at 8:17 PM, anonymousff wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Would you trust *your* children to Mahesh's theories?
> >>
> >
> > Indeed.  I had almost total immersion in Czech at Our Lady of the
> > Inquisition Catholic School in kindergarten and 1-2 grade.  The nuns
> > were right off the boat from Czecho.  It was easy as pie to learn  
> > Czech.
> 
> But M's theory is that this should just confuse you Akasha.
>

No, this is someone's possible mis-remembering of MMY's theory.

*I* heard almost exactly the opposite about learning 2nd languages.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Dec 8, 2005, at 4:51 PM, L B Shriver wrote:
> 
> > I have found it interesting that at MSAE Maharishi doesn't allow  
> > 2nd language acquisition
> > at the younger age (he may make an exception for Sanskrit) 
because  
> > he claims that for the
> > youngster to speak something other than the "mother tongue" 
creates  
> > some subtle kind of
> > confusioneven though, as you note, it is the ideal time for  
> > language acquistion.
> >
> > Does anyone have more precise information on this?
> >
> > L B S
> 
> I asked my wife who has a masters in Infant development. Do it 
BEFORE  
> elementary school.
> 
> Would you trust *your* children to Mahesh's theories?
>

Would you trust rumors that may not ahve any basis in fact in order 
to pass judgement on someone?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bbrigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> snip
> 
> . Numerous studies have persuaded linguistic 
> > researchers that acquisition of a second language after the age 
of 
> > 15 means that one is unlikely to acquire mastery (especially in 
> > terms of pronunciation -- the brain has less flexibility after 
the 
> > age of 15), although there are certainly individual variations:
> > 
> > http://tinyurl.com/a322s
> > "learning before the age of 7 yields perfect command
> 
> *
> 
> I have found it interesting that at MSAE Maharishi doesn't allow 
2nd language acquisition 
> at the younger age (he may make an exception for Sanskrit) because 
he claims that for the 
> youngster to speak something other than the "mother tongue" creates 
some subtle kind of 
> confusioneven though, as you note, it is the ideal time for 
language acquistion.
> 
> Does anyone have more precise information on this?
> 
> L B S
>

I hadn't heard that claim. I have heard that he thinks the only way 
to acquire a second language completely is to live in a country where 
it is spoken natively. This is in-line with normal linguistics 
research, from what I hear.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Women must be different on Governor Training since I'm worth as 
> > reasonable bit on paper,owning lots of property, but no-one appears 
> > to think of moi as a "good catch." Of course, I don't advertise, 
> > having learned that whatever you advertise, is the kind of person
> > you attract.
> 
> (Says Lawson, advertising.)
>

True, but the odds that anyone is going to take me seriously, travel to 
tucson and get involved with me because of some braggartly posting on 
FFL are kinda slim, so I feel safe.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > > I don't know about anyone else, but I find the 
> > > > > concept of women thinking of a man as a "good
> > > > > catch" because of his income more offensive than
> > > > > any of the racist epithets attributed here to Tom.
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Why would you be offended by this? It's a simple fact of life,
> > > > affirmed to be so by many intelligent women in private 
> > > > conversation and also by normal observations.
> > > 
> > > No argument there. It's just that personally I would
> > > never have anything to do with any woman who was
> > > interested in me for my money (not that I have a lot
> > > of it). I *know* that it's a factor in many women's
> > > search for a partner; it's just that I'm not searching
> > > for "many women," just one who is looking for a little
> > > more out of life than an easy life.
> > 
> > "Looking for a "good provider" is an essential thing for a sane
> > woman who is hoping to raise a family unless she is already well-
to-
> > do.
> 
> Not only that, it's hard-wired, an evolutionary
> survival trait.  The children of women who have
> a knack for picking a good provider are more likely
> to survive and pass on their genes (including the
> gene for the knack of picking a good provider).
> 
> Long ago, of course, a "good provider" was the guy
> who reliably brought home game after the hunt and
> was strong enough to protect the woman and the kids
> from predators (animal and otherwise).
> 
> These days it's money rather than game ("bringing
> home the bacon"), but there's still a premium on
> good looks and strength because they tend to
> indicate good health and fertility (in both males
> and females), which again favors survival of the
> genes.
> 

Genetics can breed for faux signals. You can have women (or men) who 
aren't worth a darn in or out of bed, have no concept of how to raise 
a child, etc., but their overall appearance and demeaner triggers 
mating instincts in many people just by some combination of 
features/qualities that fit the inbred  pattern recognition for 
mates. Of course, people are more complicated than crabs, so not 
everyone is triggered by the giant claw, or whatever, but the 
principle is still applies in virtually everyone, to some extent: 
there's someone out there whom, if you meet them, you WILL make a 
fool of yourself.

> 
> > The problem is when you make money the MOST important part of who 
> > you're looking for.
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Yagna By Choice. It Works