RE: RE: Re: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Re: [FairfieldLife] Places You Can#39;t Afford to Live
Share wrote: Xeno, you say that people stop short of enlightenment because it seems that no progress is happening. And in the paragraph above that, you say that at some point the words have to go. And yet it is the words, or the knowledge and understanding that can help a person continue when all is flat and seemingly non progressive. Even Maharishi's analogy of going around an iceberg, seeming to go backwards has helped me continue. Am I a fool? Or am I persistent? Both? And does it even matter? Dr Dumbass wrote: The thing Xeno is talking about, is when all ideas, concepts, recited phrases, etc. go dry. No more juice or encouragement from them. The seeker feels shitty - end of story. This phase illustrates for the seeker, the futility of living in the future, where we want to get enlightened, or in the past, remembering a flashy spiritual experience. Even though the isolation one feels is the strongest, yet, it prepares us for a final surrender, a shift of identity, away from this isolated form. Whether, or not, a seeker decides to go through with the whole enchilada, is an exact reflection, of the degree to which a seeker takes spiritual liberation seriously. Dr - I think this is pretty much a compact way of saying what I was talking about. In a later post Share made a hazy remark about taking it seriously or not seriously. I am not sure that would work. I would interpret seriously as a steady focus on what one wants to accomplish, even though accomplishment is not a particularly good way to describe what happens. Once awakening happens, one can relax a bit because now the goal is clearly experienced, one has to discover how stable the result is, and it usually does not take long before that is known, and the true challenge of living what one has experienced becomes more and more evident because you now know nothing is going to save your ass. Unless lucky enough to come clean all at once, what spreads out before one is the prospect of the ego's final dismantling which might turn out to be a much more protracted and unpleasant experience than one could ever imagine, and this is where some might balk and turn back. This is the point where having someone around who knows or at least information around about how this process unfolds which helps one from stumbling too much. This information did not seem to be available from TM teachers who drone on about getting checked etc., or talking about absolute and relative when none of that makes any practical sense anymore. Here one is really at that point where techniques do not work consistently or at all, mostly one has to pick one's way along and see what happens or does not happen. The main thing, if you experience a stumble, is not to turn back. It's OK to take a breather once in a while if it gets too intense. If lucky it might be easy. It certainly has not been for me, so I can only speak for people who have had some really rough moments. While it seems like one is doing things, as unity consolidates, there really is not much choice in the matter. M's 'take it as it comes' is actually good advice here, but now it is applied to everything in one's life, not just a tiny mantra during a short meditation. 'Handling' a mantra in meditation is really a microcosm version, a small scale model version, of how one deals with settling into unity on a macroscopic scale. But now instead of the mantra disappearing, it's YOU; everything that makes you think you are unique and special is on the chopping block. As for Dark Nights of the Soul (assuming there is a soul) mentioned in later posts on this thread, for me, at any rate, was before awakening; everything just went dead for a long, long time. Strangely, massive releases following some years after awakening were not dark, even if miserable, as I knew what was happening, and I had enough stability to wait it out without seriously running from it (although at times the desire to act on 'this is not for me' certainly arose), and that paid big dividends in subsequent stability. Delusional thinking and acting on that thinking can arise at any time; as time goes one, one gets more centred in deflecting it and letting it pass quickly; it's not an activity that is done as if one is an agent in command of one's life, it just becomes more and more automatic, as life as a whole, rather than some aspect of life acting on the rest of life settles into this mode. It is kind of strange really. Someone with Alzheimer's is present centred, they have no memory of the past, and cannot think of the future. As unity settles in, past and future seem to converge into the present - you still remember things from the past, and can plan, but the sense of time is crippled, one might say, in that past remembered events do not seem distant as a reminiscence, and planning for future happenings is very minimalist, because you don't know what
RE: RE: RE: Re: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Re: [FairfieldLife] Places You Can#39;t Afford to Live
Thanks for this, Xeno - I read it once, but then had to mow the lawn, so now I am back: Dr - I think this is pretty much a compact way of saying what I was talking about. In a later post Share made a hazy remark about taking it seriously or not seriously. I am not sure that would work. I would interpret seriously as a steady focus on what one wants to accomplish, even though accomplishment is not a particularly good way to describe what happens. Once awakening happens, one can relax a bit because now the goal is clearly experienced, one has to discover how stable the result is, and it usually does not take long before that is known, and the true challenge of living what one has experienced becomes more and more evident because you now know nothing is going to save your ass. Unless lucky enough to come clean all at once, what spreads out before one is the prospect of the ego's final dismantling which might turn out to be a much more protracted and unpleasant experience than one could ever imagine, and this is where some might balk and turn back. This is the point where having someone around who knows or at least information around about how this process unfolds which helps one from stumbling too much. All well described. Yes, I found that other people nudged me along, as needed. This information did not seem to be available from TM teachers who drone on about getting checked etc., or talking about absolute and relative when none of that makes any practical sense anymore. Here one is really at that point where techniques do not work consistently or at all, mostly one has to pick one's way along and see what happens or does not happen. The main thing, if you experience a stumble, is not to turn back. It's OK to take a breather once in a while if it gets too intense. If lucky it might be easy. It certainly has not been for me, so I can only speak for people who have had some really rough moments. Yes, I also went through the dismantling of everything, including the limitations of what the TM movement could offer me, beyond the checking, etc. Going back is really not possible - I assume you mean somehow reverting to previous values - especially with continuation of the TM technique, because the shape of the container [of consciousness] keeps changing. While it seems like one is doing things, as unity consolidates, there really is not much choice in the matter. M's 'take it as it comes' is actually good advice here, but now it is applied to everything in one's life, not just a tiny mantra during a short meditation. 'Handling' a mantra in meditation is really a microcosm version, a small scale model version, of how one deals with settling into unity on a macroscopic scale. But now instead of the mantra disappearing, it's YOU; everything that makes you think you are unique and special is on the chopping block. Yes, the once limited identity becomes far more fluid, as unity is approached and integrated. As for Dark Nights of the Soul (assuming there is a soul) mentioned in later posts on this thread, for me, at any rate, was before awakening; everything just went dead for a long, long time. Strangely, massive releases following some years after awakening were not dark, even if miserable, as I knew what was happening, and I had enough stability to wait it out without seriously running from it (although at times the desire to act on 'this is not for me' certainly arose), and that paid big dividends in subsequent stability. Yeah, the established silence within us, once we wake up, is an amazing buffer, able to bring us through a lot of turbulence. Delusional thinking and acting on that thinking can arise at any time; as time goes one, one gets more centred in deflecting it and letting it pass quickly; it's not an activity that is done as if one is an agent in command of one's life, it just becomes more and more automatic, as life as a whole, rather than some aspect of life acting on the rest of life settles into this mode. It is kind of strange really. Yeah, moving towards Unity. Someone with Alzheimer's is present centred, they have no memory of the past, and cannot think of the future. Not my experience with them, that they are 'present centered' - Their mind is disordered, so that linear chains of thought cannot be formed. The relationship to current time and space is lost. As unity settles in, past and future seem to converge into the present - you still remember things from the past, and can plan, but the sense of time is crippled, one might say, in that past remembered events do not seem distant as a reminiscence, and planning for future happenings is very minimalist, because you don't know what is going to happen that might change, you plan and if something else happens you just switch course. Be my guest if you want to consult an astrologer. As far as I can see their predictions
RE: Re: Re: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Re: [FairfieldLife] Places You Can#39;t Afford to Live
Yeah, we can have lots of them. Should be called the dark night of the ego. Seriously. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com wrote: PS, Doc, this sounds like dark night of the soul. I wonder how many on FFL have experienced that. Is it possible to have more than one? I think so! On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 8:53 AM, doctordumbass@... doctordumbass@... wrote: Xeno, you say that people stop short of enlightenment because it seems that no progress is happening. And in the paragraph above that, you say that at some point the words have to go. And yet it is the words, or the knowledge and understanding that can help a person continue when all is flat and seemingly non progressive. Even Maharishi's analogy of going around an iceberg, seeming to go backwards has helped me continue. Am I a fool? Or am I persistent? Both? And does it even matter? The thing Xeno is talking about, is when all ideas, concepts, recited phrases, etc. go dry. No more juice or encouragement from them. The seeker feels shitty - end of story. This phase illustrates for the seeker, the futility of living in the future, where we want to get enlightened, or in the past, remembering a flashy spiritual experience. Even though the isolation one feels is the strongest, yet, it prepares us for a final surrender, a shift of identity, away from this isolated form. Whether, or not, a seeker decides to go through with the whole enchilada, is an exact reflection, of the degree to which a seeker takes spiritual liberation seriously. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Xeno, you say that people stop short of enlightenment because it seems that no progress is happening. And in the paragraph above that, you say that at some point the words have to go. And yet it is the words, or the knowledge and understanding that can help a person continue when all is flat and seemingly non progressive. Even Maharishi's analogy of going around an iceberg, seeming to go backwards has helped me continue. Am I a fool? Or am I persistent? Both? And does it even matter? On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:06 PM, anartaxius@... anartaxius@... wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Dear MJ; Yes, working people back in that day of $3.35 an hour wages got a great deal then. However it is true the conservative meditator I here speak for feels deeply that people are not paying anywhere close to enough to learn TM at $1,500. And, the slacker kids living at home with their parents neither too. The TM movement could squeeze at least another thousand out of the new people coming to our Peace Palaces. It is extremely important to have commitment from new people as they start or you end up like some of the quitters we see here. -Buck I think you may be missing something Buck. I am meditating in my fifth decade. Even after adjusting for inflation by current U.S. Government measures, the price I paid for TM was less than US$500 in current value. To continue with meditation, you have to have some kind of deep desire beyond simply thinking that some mental technique is going to solve all your problems, because it does not work out that way. Something has to motivate beyond feeling better because some situations may arise where you simply do not feel well at all, and one can go through periods where it really does not seem to be doing anything at all. When somebody is taught a technique I would say there is a 10 to 20 percent chance they will continue. This happened in my family, and in the family of friends, and in the few research papers that mentioned such data. It is not that people are slackers. For one thing our culture does not support meditation that well in spite of its being more in common awareness than previously. Another factor is the illusions the mind has. It affects groups and groups that teach meditation inevitably become weird in some way, particularly if religiosity is a part of the philosophy of the group. TM has always tried to hide its religiosity, but it oozes through the cracks so much you can almost drown in it. People have very strong religious delusions and when faced with a religiosity that is contrary to what they are emotionally programmed with, they may quit just for that reason alone. Basically you have to be kind of crazy to continue with meditation, there has to be something that pushes you forward, something you sense behind the bizarre character of the whatever system of 'enlightenment' you have fallen into that seems somehow 'true'. It is not something that can be quantified. There is a curiosity that one needs about this, not an entrenched belief that one is on a royal path to a nirvana. No belief can stand in the face of this curiosity if one is to 'succeed'; all beliefs will eventually be blown away. As Maharishi said, words of
RE: Re: Re: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Re: [FairfieldLife] Places You Can#39;t Afford to Live
Intention counts. A lot. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Wonderful, Doc, I agree. Except I don't think we have to take it seriously or unseriously or any certain way at all. Life is flowing along however we take it. On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 8:53 AM, doctordumbass@... doctordumbass@... wrote: Xeno, you say that people stop short of enlightenment because it seems that no progress is happening. And in the paragraph above that, you say that at some point the words have to go. And yet it is the words, or the knowledge and understanding that can help a person continue when all is flat and seemingly non progressive. Even Maharishi's analogy of going around an iceberg, seeming to go backwards has helped me continue. Am I a fool? Or am I persistent? Both? And does it even matter? The thing Xeno is talking about, is when all ideas, concepts, recited phrases, etc. go dry. No more juice or encouragement from them. The seeker feels shitty - end of story. This phase illustrates for the seeker, the futility of living in the future, where we want to get enlightened, or in the past, remembering a flashy spiritual experience. Even though the isolation one feels is the strongest, yet, it prepares us for a final surrender, a shift of identity, away from this isolated form. Whether, or not, a seeker decides to go through with the whole enchilada, is an exact reflection, of the degree to which a seeker takes spiritual liberation seriously. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Xeno, you say that people stop short of enlightenment because it seems that no progress is happening. And in the paragraph above that, you say that at some point the words have to go. And yet it is the words, or the knowledge and understanding that can help a person continue when all is flat and seemingly non progressive. Even Maharishi's analogy of going around an iceberg, seeming to go backwards has helped me continue. Am I a fool? Or am I persistent? Both? And does it even matter? On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:06 PM, anartaxius@... anartaxius@... wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Dear MJ; Yes, working people back in that day of $3.35 an hour wages got a great deal then. However it is true the conservative meditator I here speak for feels deeply that people are not paying anywhere close to enough to learn TM at $1,500. And, the slacker kids living at home with their parents neither too. The TM movement could squeeze at least another thousand out of the new people coming to our Peace Palaces. It is extremely important to have commitment from new people as they start or you end up like some of the quitters we see here. -Buck I think you may be missing something Buck. I am meditating in my fifth decade. Even after adjusting for inflation by current U.S. Government measures, the price I paid for TM was less than US$500 in current value. To continue with meditation, you have to have some kind of deep desire beyond simply thinking that some mental technique is going to solve all your problems, because it does not work out that way. Something has to motivate beyond feeling better because some situations may arise where you simply do not feel well at all, and one can go through periods where it really does not seem to be doing anything at all. When somebody is taught a technique I would say there is a 10 to 20 percent chance they will continue. This happened in my family, and in the family of friends, and in the few research papers that mentioned such data. It is not that people are slackers. For one thing our culture does not support meditation that well in spite of its being more in common awareness than previously. Another factor is the illusions the mind has. It affects groups and groups that teach meditation inevitably become weird in some way, particularly if religiosity is a part of the philosophy of the group. TM has always tried to hide its religiosity, but it oozes through the cracks so much you can almost drown in it. People have very strong religious delusions and when faced with a religiosity that is contrary to what they are emotionally programmed with, they may quit just for that reason alone. Basically you have to be kind of crazy to continue with meditation, there has to be something that pushes you forward, something you sense behind the bizarre character of the whatever system of 'enlightenment' you have fallen into that seems somehow 'true'. It is not something that can be quantified. There is a curiosity that one needs about this, not an entrenched belief that one is on a royal path to a nirvana. No belief can stand in the face of this curiosity if one is to 'succeed'; all beliefs will eventually be blown away. As Maharishi said, words of ignorance to remove ignorance. All the verbal
RE: Re: Re: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Re: [FairfieldLife] Places You Can#39;t Afford to Live
Wonderful, Doc, I agree. Except I don't think we have to take it seriously or unseriously or any certain way at all. Life is flowing along however we take it. Hey Share, this response of yours caught my eye, again, because it is a good example of usurping Brahman. Life is flowing along however we take it, is an intellectual understanding, but it is not the experience of the seeker. So, to say that the intention for spiritual liberation needn't be taken seriously by the seeker, is basically bullshit. It had better be taken seriously by the seeker, or else nothing permanent happens. No big deal, if nothing happens, but it is simply a reflection of the seeker not being ready for a complete surrender, not being committed to it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Wonderful, Doc, I agree. Except I don't think we have to take it seriously or unseriously or any certain way at all. Life is flowing along however we take it. On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 8:53 AM, doctordumbass@... doctordumbass@... wrote: Xeno, you say that people stop short of enlightenment because it seems that no progress is happening. And in the paragraph above that, you say that at some point the words have to go. And yet it is the words, or the knowledge and understanding that can help a person continue when all is flat and seemingly non progressive. Even Maharishi's analogy of going around an iceberg, seeming to go backwards has helped me continue. Am I a fool? Or am I persistent? Both? And does it even matter? The thing Xeno is talking about, is when all ideas, concepts, recited phrases, etc. go dry. No more juice or encouragement from them. The seeker feels shitty - end of story. This phase illustrates for the seeker, the futility of living in the future, where we want to get enlightened, or in the past, remembering a flashy spiritual experience. Even though the isolation one feels is the strongest, yet, it prepares us for a final surrender, a shift of identity, away from this isolated form. Whether, or not, a seeker decides to go through with the whole enchilada, is an exact reflection, of the degree to which a seeker takes spiritual liberation seriously. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Xeno, you say that people stop short of enlightenment because it seems that no progress is happening. And in the paragraph above that, you say that at some point the words have to go. And yet it is the words, or the knowledge and understanding that can help a person continue when all is flat and seemingly non progressive. Even Maharishi's analogy of going around an iceberg, seeming to go backwards has helped me continue. Am I a fool? Or am I persistent? Both? And does it even matter? On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:06 PM, anartaxius@... anartaxius@... wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Dear MJ; Yes, working people back in that day of $3.35 an hour wages got a great deal then. However it is true the conservative meditator I here speak for feels deeply that people are not paying anywhere close to enough to learn TM at $1,500. And, the slacker kids living at home with their parents neither too. The TM movement could squeeze at least another thousand out of the new people coming to our Peace Palaces. It is extremely important to have commitment from new people as they start or you end up like some of the quitters we see here. -Buck I think you may be missing something Buck. I am meditating in my fifth decade. Even after adjusting for inflation by current U.S. Government measures, the price I paid for TM was less than US$500 in current value. To continue with meditation, you have to have some kind of deep desire beyond simply thinking that some mental technique is going to solve all your problems, because it does not work out that way. Something has to motivate beyond feeling better because some situations may arise where you simply do not feel well at all, and one can go through periods where it really does not seem to be doing anything at all. When somebody is taught a technique I would say there is a 10 to 20 percent chance they will continue. This happened in my family, and in the family of friends, and in the few research papers that mentioned such data. It is not that people are slackers. For one thing our culture does not support meditation that well in spite of its being more in common awareness than previously. Another factor is the illusions the mind has. It affects groups and groups that teach meditation inevitably become weird in some way, particularly if religiosity is a part of the philosophy of the group. TM has always tried to hide its religiosity, but it oozes through the cracks so much you can almost drown in it. People have very strong religious delusions and when faced with a religiosity that is
RE: Re: Re: Re: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Re: [FairfieldLife] Places You Can#39;t Afford to Live
Got it - yeah, too much self-auditing can drive a person crazy. Thanks for clearing that up. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Doc, I take it seriously on the level of action, but not on the level of thinking about it (-: On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 12:44 PM, doctordumbass@... doctordumbass@... wrote: Wonderful, Doc, I agree. Except I don't think we have to take it seriously or unseriously or any certain way at all. Life is flowing along however we take it. Hey Share, this response of yours caught my eye, again, because it is a good example of usurping Brahman. Life is flowing along however we take it, is an intellectual understanding, but it is not the experience of the seeker. So, to say that the intention for spiritual liberation needn't be taken seriously by the seeker, is basically bullshit. It had better be taken seriously by the seeker, or else nothing permanent happens. No big deal, if nothing happens, but it is simply a reflection of the seeker not being ready for a complete surrender, not being committed to it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Wonderful, Doc, I agree. Except I don't think we have to take it seriously or unseriously or any certain way at all. Life is flowing along however we take it. On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 8:53 AM, doctordumbass@... doctordumbass@... wrote: Xeno, you say that people stop short of enlightenment because it seems that no progress is happening. And in the paragraph above that, you say that at some point the words have to go. And yet it is the words, or the knowledge and understanding that can help a person continue when all is flat and seemingly non progressive. Even Maharishi's analogy of going around an iceberg, seeming to go backwards has helped me continue. Am I a fool? Or am I persistent? Both? And does it even matter? The thing Xeno is talking about, is when all ideas, concepts, recited phrases, etc. go dry. No more juice or encouragement from them. The seeker feels shitty - end of story. This phase illustrates for the seeker, the futility of living in the future, where we want to get enlightened, or in the past, remembering a flashy spiritual experience. Even though the isolation one feels is the strongest, yet, it prepares us for a final surrender, a shift of identity, away from this isolated form. Whether, or not, a seeker decides to go through with the whole enchilada, is an exact reflection, of the degree to which a seeker takes spiritual liberation seriously. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Xeno, you say that people stop short of enlightenment because it seems that no progress is happening. And in the paragraph above that, you say that at some point the words have to go. And yet it is the words, or the knowledge and understanding that can help a person continue when all is flat and seemingly non progressive. Even Maharishi's analogy of going around an iceberg, seeming to go backwards has helped me continue. Am I a fool? Or am I persistent? Both? And does it even matter? On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:06 PM, anartaxius@... anartaxius@... wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fairfieldlife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Dear MJ; Yes, working people back in that day of $3.35 an hour wages got a great deal then. However it is true the conservative meditator I here speak for feels deeply that people are not paying anywhere close to enough to learn TM at $1,500. And, the slacker kids living at home with their parents neither too. The TM movement could squeeze at least another thousand out of the new people coming to our Peace Palaces. It is extremely important to have commitment from new people as they start or you end up like some of the quitters we see here. -Buck I think you may be missing something Buck. I am meditating in my fifth decade. Even after adjusting for inflation by current U.S. Government measures, the price I paid for TM was less than US$500 in current value. To continue with meditation, you have to have some kind of deep desire beyond simply thinking that some mental technique is going to solve all your problems, because it does not work out that way. Something has to motivate beyond feeling better because some situations may arise where you simply do not feel well at all, and one can go through periods where it really does not seem to be doing anything at all. When somebody is taught a technique I would say there is a 10 to 20 percent chance they will continue. This happened in my family, and in the family of friends, and in the few research papers that mentioned such data. It is not that people are slackers. For one thing our culture does not support meditation that well in spite of its being more in common awareness than previously. Another factor is the illusions the
