Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Deepak Chopra's tribute to Michael Jackson
On Jun 28, 2009, at 10:52 AM, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" wrote: If your never-ending urge to always criticize MMY and the TMO (and do it in a very nasty way, it should be pointed out) is from an altruistic desire to ensure that the same mistakes are not ever made again so that a great technique gets perpetuated to more people, that would be one thing; but I suspect that's not where you're coming from. Did you not know that "Vaj" is a "Buddhist" ? Speaking of Buddhists, here's some interesting insights on TM practice from a another list. There's no reason to be stuck, attached or habitually faithful to ANY meditation method, esp. if it doesn't keep you mentally healthy and happy. It's better than having to go on medication!: Thanks very much for this discussion. It's fascinating to hear about other people's experiences with TM and their post-TM paths. For me, 22 years of dedicated TM practice and 18 years of doing the TM- Sidhis religiously twice a day, did little to prevent me from developing PTSD, anxiety and depression after some traumatic events. In fact, my "program" (how aptly named) seemed to be making me worse, giving me overwhelming dissociative experiences, so that I was unable to function well or stay 'present' for anything that was remotely stressful. It was making me more fragile, more hypersensitive, more miserable, and horribly spaced out, in a kind of daydreamy haze - when what I needed was to be fully grounded in what was real, in the here and now. These experiences, coupled with some avid online research (such as finding this wonderful website) caused me to wake up to the fact that the TMO operates like a cult, and that I had basically been brainwashed for years. Not a very pleasant insight, but a necessary one. I stopped doing TM and the sidhis, and tried to find other ways to cope. I focused instead on spiritual inquiry - looking deeply into the nature of reality as it is, here and now, and began the process of stripping away acquired beliefs and assumptions as best I could. Amazing insights came, and everything started to clarify. Then I learned the simple art of mindfulness meditation (taught over eight, once weekly lessons for the princely sum of $15, and that was just to cover the room hire!!). It's by far the most effective, effortless and beneficial practice I've ever learned. (It's so sad that the TM initiators are trained to lie about that in their intro lectures, when they denigrate all other meditation techniques as being difficult to learn, ineffective, or a strain on the mind. Their ignorance truly rings louder than their empty words.) To me, it seems so much more natural to focus on, or be fully aware of, what's *actually happening* in the present moment, such as the breath, than closing the eyes and basically hypnotising the mind by repeating a mantra over and over a million times, trying to reach some "other" space. It feels more natural and helpful to work with ordinary awareness, rather than trying to cultivate special, blissy states. But that's just my personal take on it. Through the practice of mindfulness (not just in meditation, but as an everyday approach to life) I've developed far greater clarity, focus, peace, insight, calm, compassion and happiness. All the stuff TM promised (for a hefty fee) but never really delivered. No more striving after sparkly, golden, empty dreams. Here and now is more than good enough for me, exactly as it is. And no more dissociation! Yipee!! I hope I'm not coming over as a mindfulness zealot, here. Just hoping to add my 2 cents worth to this discussion. Thanks very much for providing the space and openness to discuss such topics so freely. Very refreshing. (Anonymous)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Deepak Chopra's tribute to Michael Jackson
On Jun 28, 2009, at 5:16 PM, Robert wrote: >>> ...and virtually none of the things you've listed have ANYTHING to >>> do with the simply mental technique of TM. >> >> TM is to the TM Org what the Catholic Mass is to Roman Catholicism. >> It's the keystone of the whole business, it's the basis of TM-style >> "unstressing redemption" and the glue that holds it all together. >> >> When it was clear TM didn't work, they introduced other items to sell >> that 'you just had to have' for your evolution. TM can no longer even >> be taught in a regular building. Heaven forbid it has a south-facing >> door! >> >> Really, if a person insists on wanting to learn commercial Hindu >> mantra meditation, they'd be better off getting if from Sri Sri Ravi >> Shankar. >> > Funny, you would mention Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, as the authority... I did not say he was an authority. It's important to learn how to sit and to start pranayama before mantra diksha and it's my understanding that SSRS has restored that aspect of meditation diksha. Of course I could have misunderstood what I'd heard, as I am not a student of his. And lastly, his org seems healthier to me, something difficult to achieve with any large spiritual group. There is also a rumor that he has restored the "Om" in front of the mantra. Very important not to be giving out imbalanced mantras! :-) SSRS had removed all mention of Mahesh from his website last time I checked. > He is a first hand disciple of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi...according to > him... > So, if you believe Ravi, then your proposition here, makes little > sense... See the above--he's at least trying to do it right. You also seemed to have missed all the reasons the TMO and TM are like Roman Catholicism. Try again. I know you can do better Robert!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Deepak Chopra's tribute to Michael Jackson
On Jun 28, 2009, at 11:15 AM, shempmcgurk wrote: >>> Who cares, Vaj? >> >> Apparently quite a few people, if this list and others are any >> testament. I suspect the people it would mean the most (or perhaps >> least) to are people who lost a loved one because of it, either >> through bad health advice, suicide, a life wasted in a cult, >> dissociative disorders, etc., etc. > > > > > ...and virtually none of the things you've listed have ANYTHING to > do with the simply mental technique of TM. TM is to the TM Org what the Catholic Mass is to Roman Catholicism. It's the keystone of the whole business, it's the basis of TM-style "unstressing redemption" and the glue that holds it all together. When it was clear TM didn't work, they introduced other items to sell that 'you just had to have' for your evolution. TM can no longer even be taught in a regular building. Heaven forbid it has a south-facing door! Really, if a person insists on wanting to learn commercial Hindu mantra meditation, they'd be better off getting if from Sri Sri Ravi Shankar.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Deepak Chopra's tribute to Michael Jackson
On Jun 28, 2009, at 10:40 AM, shempmcgurk wrote: >> Unfortunately Ms. Dog history is important. So as long as the TM Org >> and TM fanatics keep churning out false histories on Mr. Varma, there >> will remain a need for those who are interested in providing the >> details of what actually happened, vs. the fictional character they >> keep trying to push. >> >> And besides the cartoon Maharishi, there's also the fact we still >> know >> relatively little on M's early years. So before more history is >> whitewashed or airbrushed over, it's important that the facts and the >> relative truth of his life is known and made available. Lists like >> these are a perfect place to hash out such details, since there are >> many old followers that hang out here. >> > > > Who cares, Vaj? Apparently quite a few people, if this list and others are any testament. I suspect the people it would mean the most (or perhaps least) to are people who lost a loved one because of it, either through bad health advice, suicide, a life wasted in a cult, dissociative disorders, etc., etc. > > It's a simply meditation technique done 20 minutes twice a day. It > helps many people; for those it doesn't, they can quit doing it. Unfortunately, it's NOT just that. It's Ayurvedic drug companies, building services, ritual sales services, penetration into our school systems, cult universities with spyware and firewalls and censorship and brahmins behind barbed wire, money-laundering and tax-shelters, etc. > > The fact that MMY was or wasn't honest about his past or whatever > is, at the end of the day, of very minor consequence. > > That is especially true now since the Movement pretty much failed 30 > years ago. It is only the TMO today and its old guard minions that > comprise its Executive that claim all the things that irk you; the > rest of the world doesn't care or just laughs. The TMO long ago > lost its credibility (sadly). > > If your never-ending urge to always criticize MMY and the TMO (and > do it in a very nasty way, it should be pointed out) is from an > altruistic desire to ensure that the same mistakes are not ever made > again so that a great technique gets perpetuated to more people, > that would be one thing; but I suspect that's not where you're > coming from. I'd beg to differ: it's really just a typical intro. mantra yoga--most often given for free or small donation--the "specialness" and "uniqueness" is just more dishonesty.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Deepak Chopra's tribute to Michael Jackson
On Jun 27, 2009, at 10:51 PM, off_world_beings wrote: No-one ever had to call Hitler..."McHitler", The McDonald's fast-food chain did not exist in Hitler's time Off World. It's only in more modern times that the prefix "Mc" would have some meaning, as in the world's first 'fast food guru' who tried to mass produce and sell faux-Vedic spirituality. If it doesn't put a smile on your face, you probably missed the joke!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Deepak Chopra's tribute to Michael Jackson
On Jun 28, 2009, at 12:07 AM, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: On Jun 27, 2009, at 11:08 PM, Robert wrote: (snip) May I ask, what Maharishi, ever did to yourself, Vaj... (snip) Did you need a list? (snip) Sure, Vaj, I need a list: List for me, the reason(s) why you have a personal grudge against Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, for once and for all! Thanks Vaj, Rob I don't have any personal grudge on the McRishi. Sure, I'd be glad to make a list, but since it will be quite long, I hope you'll appreciate that it could take a while! Vaj, I'm sure it gives you great pleasure to receive an invitation to dine on Maharishi's carcass once again. Don't you ever tire of getting off on a grudge fest against Maharishi? RIP doncha know. But such is the nature of a fetishist, they just can't say no to their addiction. If you must you must, but don't mind us holding our noses while you stink up the place picking through rubbish of bygone days. Geez, talk about a line on stone! Get over yourself. Unfortunately Ms. Dog history is important. So as long as the TM Org and TM fanatics keep churning out false histories on Mr. Varma, there will remain a need for those who are interested in providing the details of what actually happened, vs. the fictional character they keep trying to push. And besides the cartoon Maharishi, there's also the fact we still know relatively little on M's early years. So before more history is whitewashed or airbrushed over, it's important that the facts and the relative truth of his life is known and made available. Lists like these are a perfect place to hash out such details, since there are many old followers that hang out here.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Deepak Chopra's tribute to Michael Jackson
On Jun 27, 2009, at 11:08 PM, Robert wrote: > (snip) >>> May I ask, what Maharishi, ever did to yourself, Vaj... >> (snip) >> Did you need a list? > (snip) > Sure, Vaj, I need a list: > List for me, the reason(s) why you have a personal grudge against > Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, for once and for all! > Thanks Vaj, > Rob I don't have any personal grudge on the McRishi. Sure, I'd be glad to make a list, but since it will be quite long, I hope you'll appreciate that it could take a while!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Deepak Chopra's tribute to Michael Jackson
On Jun 27, 2009, at 8:28 PM, Robert wrote: >> It is odd has he's always there, ready to step up to the mike. I >> suspect where his seeming contradictions with MMY come about is a >> combination of fast, off the cuff writing to an issue with a large >> emotional charge and the need to not--as one of MMY's successors-- >> paint MMY as the scoundrel he was, lest he soil his own silk divan in >> the process. So he's also modifying the actual truth of MMY to both >> allow his own commercial succession and rework-the-guru-as-person in >> his own mind. The combination of an incongruent actor with someone he >> has to parse as a man of enlightened action, just falls apart. >> > May I ask, what Maharishi, ever did to yourself, Vaj... > That you would puch peoples buttons, to call Maharishi a scoundrel... > This not only makes you look foolish, but also, identifies you with > being a scoundrel... > Now, as far as Deepak being a scoudrel, I would agree with that... > As far as Depaak loving power and the power of money, I would agree > with that... > I don't believe that Maharishi can be put in any catagory, that > would have anything to do with being a scoudrel... > That is just over the line, and is a pure lie. Did you need a list? I'm sorry Rob, I think the reality is that Deepak's scoundrel-ness is just more transparent to you, esp. since he's more an American and appearing as a western-style person--but Mahesh McRishi, being more foreign to you and your admiring pre-disposition for him (along with your projections upon him as a rishi-in-dress), has merely blinded you to his folly(ies). This is common in regards to commercial gurus and Mahesh in particular. He did put on a great show! And of course it wasn't all bad, so that makes it extra confusing, esp. cross-culturally. Actually, historically speaking, Chopra would appear to be the greater sage if we relied on past actions and personal history.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Deepak Chopra's tribute to Michael Jackson
On Jun 27, 2009, at 6:36 PM, Vaj wrote: He had lupus? Is there anything he *didn't* have? It may be unseemly, but it's also human. He was the most public of public figures, and his sudden death (supposedly, but not really depending on who you believe) is bound to cause huge speculation. Why shouldn't Chopra join in too? As long as no confidentiality was breached and it doesn't appear there was. Granted, he's a pop guru, but as a physician there are certain ethical standards he should adhere to, esp. in regards to illness and confidentiality of a friend who probably approached Chopra for the occasional medical advice, even though he was not his personal physician or one of his specialists. When two media figures in a row die and each time Chopra's there blabbing what he knows, it doesn't bade well for his professional bearing. It starts to seem self- serving and sleazy. In a row, Vaj? Two people die 16 months apart, and you can that "in a row"? Personally, I think MJ would have heartily approved and been amused by all the attention and speculation, and I think he probably is. His last great publicity stunt--going out with a bang. Sal
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Deepak Chopra's tribute to Michael Jackson
On Jun 27, 2009, at 4:21 PM, Sal Sunshine wrote: I am very suspicious of Chopra, always finding a way to insert himself into a story. His writings after MMY died concerning his illnesses did not hold together into a coherent whole. His speculation that drugs caused Jackson's death (and that he warned him) is unseemly. Heck, he could have died as a result of his lupus. He had lupus? Is there anything he *didn't* have? It may be unseemly, but it's also human. He was the most public of public figures, and his sudden death (supposedly, but not really depending on who you believe) is bound to cause huge speculation. Why shouldn't Chopra join in too? As long as no confidentiality was breached and it doesn't appear there was. Granted, he's a pop guru, but as a physician there are certain ethical standards he should adhere to, esp. in regards to illness and confidentiality of a friend who probably approached Chopra for the occasional medical advice, even though he was not his personal physician or one of his specialists. When two media figures in a row die and each time Chopra's there blabbing what he knows, it doesn't bade well for his professional bearing. It starts to seem self-serving and sleazy.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Deepak Chopra's tribute to Michael Jackson
On Jun 27, 2009, at 4:01 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: But what I find more interesting is the enduring hatred that long-term TMers seem to aim at him. Whatever they claim on the surface, the bottom line of it always has struck me as them being *jealous* of him for *making* money by parroting the same unoriginal, recycled spiritual dogma that they had to *pay* money to parrot. I am very suspicious of Chopra, always finding a way to insert himself into a story. His writings after MMY died concerning his illnesses did not hold together into a coherent whole. It is odd has he's always there, ready to step up to the mike. I suspect where his seeming contradictions with MMY come about is a combination of fast, off the cuff writing to an issue with a large emotional charge and the need to not--as one of MMY's successors-- paint MMY as the scoundrel he was, lest he soil his own silk divan in the process. So he's also modifying the actual truth of MMY to both allow his own commercial succession and rework-the-guru-as-person in his own mind. The combination of an incongruent actor with someone he has to parse as a man of enlightened action, just falls apart.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Deepak Chopra's tribute to Michael Jackson
On Jun 27, 2009, at 3:01 PM, ruthsimplicity wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote: But what I find more interesting is the enduring hatred that long-term TMers seem to aim at him. Whatever they claim on the surface, the bottom line of it always has struck me as them being *jealous* of him for *making* money by parroting the same unoriginal, recycled spiritual dogma that they had to *pay* money to parrot. I am very suspicious of Chopra, always finding a way to insert himself into a story. His writings after MMY died concerning his illnesses did not hold together into a coherent whole. His speculation that drugs caused Jackson's death (and that he warned him) is unseemly. Heck, he could have died as a result of his lupus. He had lupus? Is there anything he *didn't* have? It may be unseemly, but it's also human. He was the most public of public figures, and his sudden death (supposedly, but not really depending on who you believe) is bound to cause huge speculation. Why shouldn't Chopra join in too? As long as no confidentiality was breached and it doesn't appear there was. Sal
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Deepak Chopra's tribute to Michael Jackson
On Jun 26, 2009, at 7:44 PM, shempmcgurk wrote: I'm going to say what I said about Chopra after he did his piece on Maharishi immediately after he died last year. Recall that Chopra revealed private stuff about Maharishi's sickness at a time when Chopra was actually his formal physician (about 20 years ago). And death does not sever the patient/doctor confidentiality yet here was Chopra -- without consent from Maharishi's estate -- revealing personal medical info about Maharishi. I am convinced if someone wanted to pursue it, they could have successfully lodged a formal complaint against Chopra for violating that confidentiality. I don't know if it's the same case here but Chopra is quite quick off the starting block to share intimate stuff about Jackson...and if Chopra was in any official capacity a counsellor, doctor or adviser to Jackson he very well may be violating that same confidentiality again by some of the stuff he writes in this article. I didn't see anything that looked confidence-violating in what he wrote. Looked pretty much like just reflections to me. I take it you're not a big Chopra fan, shemp. Sal
