Re: How user could loose his CLA done status?
On 06/28/2009 04:32 PM, Till Maas wrote: Will I also loose my cla_done membership, once you notice that I removed my phone number from FAS after I quit the contract for the telephone connection? Or is it only required to provide a valid phone number at the time cla_done membership is requested? No, you won't lose cla_done for that. I generally assume that people are making reasonable efforts to keep that information current and relevant, especially since it would only be used in the event that we needed to contact you regarding a legal matter and email attempts had been unsuccessful. ~spot -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Matthew Garrett wrote: But when we talk about Fedora features, we're not talking about packaging updates. But all this focus on Fedora features is what I'm objecting to in the first place. Users care about what features are there, not about who wrote them. Yet I don't see us filling in feature pages for every new feature in upstream KDE (and it probably wouldn't be welcome according to the feature process, it focuses on stuff developed by Fedora contributors). When we talk about what differentiates Fedora from other distributions, it's rarely the quality of the packaging that's the focus. I think it's quite the opposite. We all package the same software. The packaging is what differentiates us from the others. People choose between distributions based on the features that they provide. Those features tend to be almost the same. Fast-moving distributions like Fedora will usually have them first, even if we weren't the ones implementing them. But otherwise, there's not much difference! If the primary focus of Fedora is to produce a compelling operating system, then upstream features and development are a significant part of making that argument to potential users. But what if upstream is doing well already and does not need our help? I'm sure, yes. It makes several mistakes that I've been arguing against for years (presenting power management in terms of profiles, making it easy for users to change cpu frequency governer mode without making it clear that almost anything they change there will consume more power and will probably compromise performance, implying that performance and pwoersaving are a tradeoff) KDE focuses on configurability. You won't get a KDE developer to agree to not give the user any options. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Matthias Clasen wrote: Now I guess it would be my turn to feel insulted, and stamp my foot, because I do the majority of the stable Gnome updates. And yes, they do exist. At the rate of one update per month to every GNOME package? Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Rahul Sundaram wrote: nm-applet doesn't work the KDE Wallet for example. This is exactly what I mean by lack of integration. That's why we're switching to the plasmoid. :-) And how is this relevant to the user? The user cares about what features they're getting, not who has written the code for them. It is relevant from the Fedora perspective. The user does not care, so why present things to the user as if they should? KDE does lack integration with them. That word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. I understand perfectly well what it means. It's just that you aren't willing to accept that they are integration gaps. You're calling things integration which are just features, e.g. fingerprint reading. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Rahul Sundaram wrote: The constructiveness if for KDE SIG and individuals to accept that his claim of perfect integration is silly when there are many gaps to address. Those gaps are not integration issues. They're just features which GNOME happens to have. I have no problems with that except for the concern that users who are completely new to Linux don't understand jargon like GNOME or KDE. It means nothing and I think download page isn't going to the right place to do it. I would like to see a good proposal, perhaps a mockup showing us how it can be done instead of voting in FESCo. Just link to an info page for each. Why single out desktop environments? Is the justifications for all of our defaults documented anywhere? Shouldn't it be? Default apps are basically implied by the desktop environment (we ship apps designed for the respective spin's desktop environment). I think, the amount of resources within Fedora directed at one desktop environment is a big factor and it does make a significant difference in the end user experience when new technologies developed within Fedora. And I think the amount of resources directed towards KDE is sufficient (though as I wrote repeatedly, more help would be perfectly welcome). And, the answers to these questions will only get more important over time, it seems, as more and more viable alternatives arise (within Fedora), like sugar, XFCE, LXDE, etc... .. and this makes it even more important to make the right decision. Would it be right to provide a long list of desktop environments and live cd's associated within the download page or upfront within the installer? Yes. How do you even describe the differences appropriately? Just link to info pages. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Kevin Koflerkevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: This x86_64 issue is also a nasty side effect of your design policy: why are we defaulting to reduced performance for the vast majority of new hardware (basically only netbooks and a handful pretty specialized devices use 32-bit-only CPUs these days!) just in the name of avoiding a choice and potential frustration of clueless users who don't know they need the 32-bit version? That's yet another bad tradeoff in the name of usability. I know several people who have accidentally downloaded the 32-bit version when they actually wanted x86_64 because the 64-bit version is hidden the way it is. It's hard to find even for clueful users! Definitely. You know who I think really gets it right? http://software.opensuse.org/ It completely and absolutely leaves Fedora download page for dead. As for DE's -- I think we can all agree XFCE/GNOME/KDE are all pretty solid. So the major selling point of each, is simply what they look like. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Screenshot_Tour So why not have something like Fedora_11_(KDE|GNOME|XFCE)_Screenshot_Tour and links to them? And a one line selling each: GNOME aims for simplicity and elegance KDE aims for control and configurability XFCE aims to be fast and light. (And default to GNOME to represent Fedora's position) -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono
Frank Murphy, Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:38:45 +0100: Is there any contingency plans in place, for a worst case scenario if C#, is lost? FesCo? Sure, there is, but no need to panic ... sky is not falling yet (and there are many reasons to believe it never will). Note for example, that default installation of Fedora 12 probably won't require Mono at all (Tomboy was replaced by Gnotes, although the main reason was savings of many megabytes instead of legal concerns). Best, Matěj P.S.: Says the one who does yum remove mono-\* after every upgrade of Fedora. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
2009/6/29 Eric Springer erik...@gmail.com: On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Kevin Koflerkevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: This x86_64 issue is also a nasty side effect of your design policy: why are we defaulting to reduced performance for the vast majority of new hardware (basically only netbooks and a handful pretty specialized devices use 32-bit-only CPUs these days!) just in the name of avoiding a choice and potential frustration of clueless users who don't know they need the 32-bit version? That's yet another bad tradeoff in the name of usability. I know several people who have accidentally downloaded the 32-bit version when they actually wanted x86_64 because the 64-bit version is hidden the way it is. It's hard to find even for clueful users! Definitely. You know who I think really gets it right? http://software.opensuse.org/ It completely and absolutely leaves Fedora download page for dead. As for DE's -- I think we can all agree XFCE/GNOME/KDE are all pretty solid. So the major selling point of each, is simply what they look like. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Screenshot_Tour So why not have something like Fedora_11_(KDE|GNOME|XFCE)_Screenshot_Tour and links to them? And a one line selling each: GNOME aims for simplicity and elegance KDE aims for control and configurability XFCE aims to be fast and light. (And default to GNOME to represent Fedora's position) Yes Sir! You can link even to more information or use ajax (to prevent too much extra sites or popups). Thanks! -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 3:14 AM, Matej Cepl mc...@redhat.com wrote: Frank Murphy, Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:38:45 +0100: Is there any contingency plans in place, for a worst case scenario if C#, is lost? FesCo? Sure, there is, but no need to panic ... sky is not falling yet (and there are many reasons to believe it never will). Note for example, that default installation of Fedora 12 probably won't require Mono at all (Tomboy was replaced by Gnotes, although the main reason was savings of many megabytes instead of legal concerns). Best, Matěj P.S.: Says the one who does yum remove mono-\* after every upgrade of Fedora. I don't think you need to really worry about Mono itself. If you really are worried about Microsoft suing your brains out, just remove mono-web and mono-winforms. You don't even need those two for most packaged Mono apps on Linux. Only if you want to run applications compiled for .NET framework on Visual Studio/SharpDevelop. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On 06/29/2009 12:54 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: The user does not care, so why present things to the user as if they should? I said nothing about users. You should as a Fedora developer care about integration with leading edge features that makes Fedora stand out. You're calling things integration which are just features, e.g. fingerprint reading. I guess that is a just a different perspective. My point of view is that, finger print functionality already exists for quite sometime. What is new is the integration with desktop environment and display manager. I find it amusing that you won't even agree that shipping nm-applet in KDE results is a gap in integration. This was a result of the KDE 3 - KDE 4 migration. Let's just agree to disagree. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
What decides that a package is multilib?
Someone has just filed a bug that pl.i586 conflicts with pl.x86_64: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=508515 This is indeed true (I just verified it), but what I don't know is why pl.i586 is in the multilib repository in the first place. How do packages become multilib? Thanks for any help, MEF -- Mary Ellen Foster -- http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/mef/ ICCS, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono
On 29/06/09 09:42, King InuYasha wrote: I don't think you need to really worry about Mono itself. If you really are worried about Microsoft suing your brains out, just remove mono-web and mono-winforms. You don't even need those two for most packaged Mono apps on Linux. Only if you want to run applications compiled for .NET framework on Visual Studio/SharpDevelop. I would be worried about users\devs who use fedora apps which depend on C#. Is C# used just for web-apps (fedora context)? Frank -- Beating my tom-tom -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: TeX Live 2008 available for testing
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 08:10:07AM +, Matej Cepl wrote: Jindrich Novy, Sun, 28 Jun 2009 01:21:34 +0200: This is caused by the fact that the /usr/share/texmf exists on your system. The new texlive needs to replace it with symlink and RPM doesn't allow to do that if the directory already exists. Please remove the directory manually and try again. bradford:~# yum list installed tex\* Loaded plugins: allowdowngrade, changelog, presto, refresh-packagekit, remove- : with-leaves Error: No matching Packages to list bradford:share# ls /usr/share/texmf/ dvipdfm bradford:share# rpm -qf $(readlink -f texmf/dvipdfm/) soubor /usr/share/texmf/dvipdfm nevlastní žádný balíček I think dvipdfm is maintained by you as well, isn't it? Nope, dvipdfm is maintained by Jonathan G. Underwood (jgu). Jindrich Matěj -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- Jindrich Novy jn...@redhat.com http://people.redhat.com/jnovy/ -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono
On 06/29/2009 02:30 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: I would be worried about users\devs who use fedora apps which depend on C#. Is C# used just for web-apps (fedora context)? # repoquery --whatrequires --all --recursive mono-core It is mostly desktop apps and not web apps. Nothing Fedora specific about them. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: TeX Live 2008 available for testing
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 02:36:37AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Jindrich Novy wrote: This is caused by the fact that the /usr/share/texmf exists on your system. The new texlive needs to replace it with symlink and RPM doesn't allow to do that if the directory already exists. Please remove the directory manually and try again. There are some (really baroque) ways to hack around this, ask rdieter for details, he's done it a couple times. That said, the most reliable solution is not to turn a directory into a symlink in the first place. Is this really necessary? The existence of /usr/share/texmf is needed very much because of compatibility reasons, most of the packages installing TeX stuff actually assumes the TEXMF tree is right there. Some of them tried to even own the directory (gnuplot). One possible solution would be to not to symlink /usr/share/texmf - /usr/share/texlive/texmf but in the reverse way. Jindrich Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- Jindrich Novy jn...@redhat.com http://people.redhat.com/jnovy/ -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: What decides that a package is multilib?
On 06/29/2009 10:58 AM, Mary Ellen Foster wrote: Someone has just filed a bug that pl.i586 conflicts with pl.x86_64: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=508515 This is indeed true (I just verified it), but what I don't know is why pl.i586 is in the multilib repository in the first place. How do packages become multilib? Thanks for any help, MEF Hello, some packages doesn't work with x86_64 version of library, so they need also i586 installed. The multilib is created by releng on maintainers or users demand. And they should be working when they are installed both on one machine. For example tcl is multilib and it doesn't conflict on installation. Problem could be f.e. different time stamp of build or something else ;-) Regards, -- Marcela Mašláňová BaseOS team Brno -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: What decides that a package is multilib?
Mary Ellen Foster píše v Po 29. 06. 2009 v 09:58 +0100:
Someone has just filed a bug that pl.i586 conflicts with pl.x86_64:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=508515
This is indeed true (I just verified it), but what I don't know is why
pl.i586 is in the multilib repository in the first place. How do
packages become multilib?
You install files into libdir (%{_libdir}/%{name}-%{version}/*)- which
differs for 32 and 64 bit architecture. Therefore is your package
considered multilib.
As binaries will probably always differ, the only and best way to
resolve those multilib conflicts would be to have pl-libs subpackage.
Greetings,
Ondřej Vašík
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Re: What decides that a package is multilib?
2009/6/29 Ondřej Vašík ova...@redhat.com:
Mary Ellen Foster píše v Po 29. 06. 2009 v 09:58 +0100:
Someone has just filed a bug that pl.i586 conflicts with pl.x86_64:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=508515
This is indeed true (I just verified it), but what I don't know is why
pl.i586 is in the multilib repository in the first place. How do
packages become multilib?
You install files into libdir (%{_libdir}/%{name}-%{version}/*)- which
differs for 32 and 64 bit architecture. Therefore is your package
considered multilib.
As binaries will probably always differ, the only and best way to
resolve those multilib conflicts would be to have pl-libs subpackage.
Rats. Looks like I'll have to do a bit of fiddling, as upstream puts
everything (incliding binaries) into subdirectories of %{_libdir} and
then makes symbolic links into %{_bindir}. Oh well, can't be avoided I
guess ...
Thanks for the explanation!
MEF
--
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Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
Re the discussion at https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-June/msg01991.html The below suggestion tries to satisfy all parties: - it presents a neutral default - it presents a simple choice for newbie who doesnt know what a desktop is - it shows the range of what is available - it allows a specific choice Design suggestion for the Fedora download page (http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora): FEDORA LIVE CD Do you require a specific desktop ? [ * ] I don't care [ ] Fedora Live with GNOME [ ] Fedora Live with KDE [ ] Fedora Live with LXDE [ ] Fedora Live with XFCE etc The I don't care just links to whichever desktop is currently the default. Implementation of this logic doesn't require radio buttons. Just 2 links: 1) click here for default 2) or click here to choose (go to a selection menu) Clicking link #1 gets you the default. Or clicking link #2 takes you to a menu of links, one for each available choice. Fedora policy specifies which desktop the user gets if they click the default. But the above user interface design is independent of whichever one is the default. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
2009/6/29 David bouncingc...@gmail.com: Re the discussion at https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-June/msg01991.html The below suggestion tries to satisfy all parties: - it presents a neutral default - it presents a simple choice for newbie who doesnt know what a desktop is - it shows the range of what is available - it allows a specific choice Design suggestion for the Fedora download page (http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora): FEDORA LIVE CD Do you require a specific desktop ? [ * ] I don't care [ ] Fedora Live with GNOME [ ] Fedora Live with KDE [ ] Fedora Live with LXDE [ ] Fedora Live with XFCE etc The I don't care just links to whichever desktop is currently the default. Implementation of this logic doesn't require radio buttons. Just 2 links: 1) click here for default 2) or click here to choose (go to a selection menu) Clicking link #1 gets you the default. Or clicking link #2 takes you to a menu of links, one for each available choice. Fedora policy specifies which desktop the user gets if they click the default. But the above user interface design is independent of whichever one is the default. David, this looks awesome to my, really good work! +1 -- Regards, Niels -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
2009/6/29 Michal Hlavinka mhlav...@redhat.com: On Friday 26 June 2009 20:50:58 Jon Stanley wrote: ... 18:42:08 Kevin_Kofler Sweeping them under the carpet is bad. 18:42:16 Kevin_Kofler I also hate how x86_64 is being hidden. 18:42:21 nirik presenting them all on the top page is also fail. 18:42:22 jds2001 and I defer to her on design decisions, since I couldn't design my way out of a paper bag :) 18:42:29 j-rod hey, I was just going to mention x86_64 18:42:43 nirik perhaps we could come up with a better way somehow. I'm sure they are open to creative ideas. 18:43:08 Kevin_Kofler jds2001: The problem is, if you read her credentials (GNOME Women membership etc.), she's very biased. 18:43:13 nirik also, x86_64/i686 dual arch disks would be lovely. 18:43:33 j-rod so it should be Get Fedora 11 GNOME Desktop Edition for Intel Pentium, Pentium II, Pentium III, early Pentium IV, Core Duo, AMD Athlon XP, Athlon MP, Via C3... Now! 18:43:33 * thomasj will make a main page and send it to the website people, so they can decide if it's better or not. 18:43:56 thomasj eeww 18:44:07 j-rod (yes, I left some off, it got tiring typing that many ancient crappy processors) 18:44:36 Kevin_Kofler I think i686 should be deprecated and clearly advertised as only for old computers or netbooks, not catered for with dual-arch disks. 18:44:48 j-rod ha. powerpc is more obviously displayed than x86_64 is ... Is there any info message telling user something like: You are installing 32bit system on 64bit hardware. Consider using 64bit system for better performance? AFAIK not in Fedora, if I remember me correctly, the SuSE installer shows up such a message if you try to boot a X86 disk on a amd64 capable system. -- Regards, Niels Michal -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
The I don't care looks like get me out of here!. Not presenting a default choice is just bad usability. Those that know about the different desktop environments should be offered an easy and accessible way to get to them (I am not suggesting that the current page does that - but presenting a false choice to many people already out of their element trying this linux thingymajig may be enough to scare them away.). Those that don't should not have to worry to much over such a page. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
RELEASE: Mach 0.9.5 'MMM...'
mach - make a chroot - RELEASE NOTES Announcing the release of mach 0.9.5 - MMM... WHAT IS IT -- mach allows you to set up clean roots from scratch for any distribution or distribution variation supported. This clean build root can be used to run jailed services, create disk images, or build clean packages. mach can currently set up roots for the following distributions: - Fedora 7, 8, 9 (Fedora, Everything, updated, rpm.livna.org, 10, 11 JPackage, FreshRPMS, GStreamer) devel - Fedora 4, 5, 6 (core, updated, extras, rpm.livna.org, JPackage, FreshRPMS, GStreamer) - Fedora 1, 2, 3 (core, updated, www.fedora.us, rpm.livna.org, JPackage, FreshRPMS, GStreamer) - Red Hat 8.0, 9 (basic, updated, www.fedora.us, rpm.livna.org, JPackage, GStreamer, FreshRPMS) - Red Hat 7.2, 7.3 (basic, updated, FreshRPMS, JPackage) - Red Hat 7.0, 7.1 (basic, updated, FreshRPMS) - CentOS 4, 5 - SuSE 8.1/8.2/9 - OpenSuSE 10.2/10.3/11.0 - Yellowdog Linux 3.0 (basic, updated, FreshRPMS) - Yellowdog Linux 2.3 (basic, updated, FreshRPMS) - Dave/Dina 0.0/oven/fridge Read the README included in the distribution for a better overview. CHANGES --- - Added Fedora 10 and 11 (Thomas) - Changed archived Fedora configuration (Thomas) - Documented setup for separating roots per user (Sam Liddicott) - Fixes for Python 2.6 (Thomas) WHY WOULD YOU USE IT mach is helpful: - to create minimal chroot environments to jail services in - to create clean packages for distributions - to catch spec file mistakes, missing buildrequires, and more INFORMATION --- mach's homepage is at http://thomas.apestaart.org/projects/mach/ mach is hosted on SourceForge; the project page is http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/mach/ There is a mailing list for development and use of mach. See http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mach-devel QUICKSTART -- a) On a Fedora 4 Core system, install the mach rpm from http://thomas.apestaart.org/download/mach b) su - mach c) mach setup base d) mach chroot poke around a bit in the fresh root e) exit f) mach rebuild http://ayo.freshrpms.net/fedora/linux/4/i386/SRPMS.core/vorbis-tools-1.0.1-6.src.rpm If all goes well, you'll get a nice freshly built vorbis-tools package. Now go out, experiment and bug report ! MAILING LIST A mailing list has been set up for discussion of mach use and development. Check http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mach-devel for information. The list is low-volume. BUGS To file bugs, go to https://apestaart.org/thomas/trac Always state what platform you are running on, if it's a clean install or somehow updated, how I can reproduce the bug, and output of a run of the failed command with -d (debugging). CONTRIBUTORS Contributors to releases include - Thomas Vander Stichele - Ville Skyttä - Jeff Pitman - Rudi Chiarito - Matthias Saou - Nigel Metheringham - Jan Schmidt - Julien Moutte - Sam Liddicott -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
On Monday 29 June 2009 13:22:05 Naheem Zaffar wrote: The I don't care looks like get me out of here!. I don't care really scares me. If you don't care then system installation or using with live CD is not a job for you! Jaroslav Not presenting a default choice is just bad usability. Those that know about the different desktop environments should be offered an easy and accessible way to get to them (I am not suggesting that the current page does that - but presenting a false choice to many people already out of their element trying this linux thingymajig may be enough to scare them away.). Those that don't should not have to worry to much over such a page. -- Jaroslav Řezník jrez...@redhat.com Associate Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno Office: +420 532 294 275 Mobile: +420 731 455 332 Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/ -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 09:22:44AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Matthias Clasen wrote: Now I guess it would be my turn to feel insulted, and stamp my foot, because I do the majority of the stable Gnome updates. And yes, they do exist. At the rate of one update per month to every GNOME package? Before you continute to show this as an example of something good, think about it for a second. It is not obvious to me without seeing comparison data as to why it's such a good thing to have numerous stable updates. And no, I don't want you to go get comparison data. There are many other things that the KDE SIG does extremely well. While this may or may not be one of them, I do agree with whoever said that this is the wrong metric to be using. josh -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
2009/6/29 David bouncingc...@gmail.com: Re the discussion at https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-June/msg01991.html The below suggestion tries to satisfy all parties: - it presents a neutral default - it presents a simple choice for newbie who doesnt know what a desktop is - it shows the range of what is available - it allows a specific choice Design suggestion for the Fedora download page (http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora): FEDORA LIVE CD Do you require a specific desktop ? [ * ] I just want to try/have a look [Info] [ ] Fedora Live with GNOME [Screenshots][Info] [ ] Fedora Live with KDE[Screenshots][Info] [ ] Fedora Live with LXDE [Screenshots] [Info] [ ] Fedora Live with XFCE [Screenshots] [Info] etc The I just want to try/have a look just links to whichever desktop is currently the default. Thanks David -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
On Monday 29 June 2009 12:48:11 David wrote: Re the discussion at https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-June/msg01991.html The below suggestion tries to satisfy all parties: - it presents a neutral default - it presents a simple choice for newbie who doesnt know what a desktop is - it shows the range of what is available - it allows a specific choice Design suggestion for the Fedora download page (http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora): FEDORA LIVE CD Do you require a specific desktop ? [ * ] I don't care [ ] Fedora Live with GNOME [ ] Fedora Live with KDE [ ] Fedora Live with LXDE [ ] Fedora Live with XFCE etc The I don't care just links to whichever desktop is currently the default. Implementation of this logic doesn't require radio buttons. Just 2 links: 1) click here for default 2) or click here to choose (go to a selection menu) Clicking link #1 gets you the default. Or clicking link #2 takes you to a menu of links, one for each available choice. Fedora policy specifies which desktop the user gets if they click the default. But the above user interface design is independent of whichever one is the default. small improvement: FEDORA LIVE CD Do you require a specific desktop ? [ * ] Fedora Live with GNOME (default) [ ] Fedora Live with KDE [ ] Fedora Live with LXDE [ ] Fedora Live with XFCE etc it's better than I don't care and it suggests what to use if you really don't care :) -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Streaming terminal output to a file
Paul wrote: Hi, I'm trying to stream a stack traceback to a file so that I can add it to a bug for firefox. However, the likes of firefox firefox.txt, firefox 2 firefox.txt and firefox firefox.txt either dumps nothing or dumps something, but in all cases, not the stack traceback. What do I need to do to save the traceback? You could use 'script'. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: TeX Live 2008 available for testing
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:17:47AM +0100, Jonathan Underwood wrote: 2009/6/29 Jindrich Novy jn...@redhat.com: On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 08:10:07AM +, Matej Cepl wrote: I think dvipdfm is maintained by you as well, isn't it? Nope, dvipdfm is maintained by Jonathan G. Underwood (jgu). There's going to be a few of these as we switch to tl2008. Actually, Jindrich, I think the best thing to do is actually to revert to using the texlive bundled versions of these packages (xdvik, dvipdfm etc) - by using the other upstreams we're losing the integration work done by the texlive team. Sure, we need to prefer already packaged stuff. Let's discuss the details off-list. Jindrich J. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- Jindrich Novy jn...@redhat.com http://people.redhat.com/jnovy/ -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: That said, it's possible to improve over their design, in particular by adding links to info pages about the desktops and 32 vs. 64 bit right next to the respective choice. But removing choice is not an improvement. What if the user was only given one option at a time? Sort of like an expert system --download.html-- Which Arch? [big shiny box for each arch, with description and links] --download-86_64.html-- Live CD or DVD [big shiny box for each with description, advantages, uses, links] etc. It's a little slower, but definitely more informative, which is important if we want people to get the right install media. And no one can claim we're just copying opensuse. Anyone object? :P -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Josh Boyer wrote: It is not obvious to me without seeing comparison data as to why it's such a good thing to have numerous stable updates. It's a good thing because those updates fix bugs, update translations and in some cases add features. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Kevin Koflerkevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: Josh Boyer wrote: It is not obvious to me without seeing comparison data as to why it's such a good thing to have numerous stable updates. It's a good thing because those updates fix bugs, update translations and in some cases add features. and introduce new bugs ;) -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
2009/6/29 Thomas Janssen thom...@fedoraproject.org: 2009/6/29 David bouncingc...@gmail.com: Re the discussion at https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-June/msg01991.html The below suggestion tries to satisfy all parties: - it presents a neutral default - it presents a simple choice for newbie who doesnt know what a desktop is - it shows the range of what is available - it allows a specific choice Design suggestion for the Fedora download page (http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora): FEDORA LIVE CD Do you require a specific desktop ? [ * ] I just want to try/have a look [Info] [ ] Fedora Live with GNOME [Screenshots] [Info] [ ] Fedora Live with KDE [Screenshots] [Info] [ ] Fedora Live with LXDE [Screenshots] [Info] [ ] Fedora Live with XFCE [Screenshots] [Info] etc The I just want to try/have a look just links to whichever desktop is currently the default. I like the screenshot / info page idea. But I think one thing is missing. I wonder if we could find also a way to get the 32bit vs. 64bit choice also so smart integrated? Like a additional radio button at the end for choosing 32bit or 64bit. PS: Hope that this not cause the next long discussion about the default arch :) -- Regards, Niels Thanks David -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Rahul Sundaram wrote: I find it amusing that you won't even agree that shipping nm-applet in KDE results is a gap in integration. This was a result of the KDE 3 - KDE 4 migration. It was actually a result of the NM 0.6 - 0.7 migration. The KDE 3 - KDE 4 migration just made it worse by splitting the efforts on KNetworkManager into 2 separate codebases. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 5:48 AM, Davidbouncingc...@gmail.com wrote: Re the discussion at https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-June/msg01991.html The below suggestion tries to satisfy all parties: - it presents a neutral default - it presents a simple choice for newbie who doesnt know what a desktop is - it shows the range of what is available - it allows a specific choice Design suggestion for the Fedora download page (http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora): FEDORA LIVE CD Do you require a specific desktop ? [ * ] I don't care [ ] Fedora Live with GNOME [ ] Fedora Live with KDE [ ] Fedora Live with LXDE [ ] Fedora Live with XFCE etc The I don't care just links to whichever desktop is currently the default. Implementation of this logic doesn't require radio buttons. Just 2 links: 1) click here for default 2) or click here to choose (go to a selection menu) Clicking link #1 gets you the default. Or clicking link #2 takes you to a menu of links, one for each available choice. Fedora policy specifies which desktop the user gets if they click the default. But the above user interface design is independent of whichever one is the default. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list +1 Great idea, possibly change the verbage of I don't care but a solid idea non the less. -Adam -- http://maxamillion.googlepages.com - () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Bastien Nocera wrote: I'm sure that a KDE hacker with access to a supported fingerprint reader could implement the enrollment facility within an afternoon. There's already an implementation: http://blog.djaara.net/wordpress/2009/ That's a student from Brno, ltinkl and jreznik know him personally, so I'm sure they'll package it (or get the author to package it) as soon as they feel it's ready. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: What decides that a package is multilib?
Mary Ellen Foster wrote:
Rats. Looks like I'll have to do a bit of fiddling, as upstream puts
everything (incliding binaries) into subdirectories of %{_libdir} and
then makes symbolic links into %{_bindir}. Oh well, can't be avoided I
guess ...
You can try doing what the qt package does and put the binaries
into %{_bindir} and the symlinks into the %{_libdir} subdirectory instead.
That way the conflicts will be handled by the standard ELF coloring.
Kevin Kofler
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Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
Jaroslav Reznik wrote: I don't care really scares me. If you don't care then system installation or using with live CD is not a job for you! +1, and that's why the current design which is optimized for people who don't care is broken. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Saturday, June 27 2009, Kevin Kofler said: * fixing comps so task-oriented groups like SoundVideo aren't biased towards GNOME apps (this most likely requires extending the comps format or having separate comps-kde and comps-gnome - I think extending the format to handle conditionals based on the desktop selected via radiobutton would be the more maintainable solution in the long run): where I'd like to get to is that if I select SoundVideo after having selected GNOME as the desktop, I get Totem and Rhythmbox by default and kdemultimedia, Amarok and Kaffeine as optional checkboxes, but if I select SoundVideo after having selected KDE as the desktop, I get kdemultimedia, Amarok and Kaffeine by default and Totem and Rhythmbox as optional checkboxes, fwiw, concrete discussions on how to actually improve comps so that it scales to the order of magnitude more packages + many many many more use cases we have are welcome. We had a long discussion about it at the FUDCon in January, but no one was really happy with the idea we came up with (as it introduced new problems and didn't solve all the existing ones) and so we continue to live with where we are. Jeremy -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
On 06/29/2009 07:22 AM, Naheem Zaffar wrote: The I don't care looks like get me out of here!. Not presenting a default choice is just bad usability. Those that know about the different desktop environments should be offered an easy and accessible way to get to them (I am not suggesting that the current page does that - but presenting a false choice to many people already out of their element trying this linux thingymajig may be enough to scare them away.). Those that don't should not have to worry to much over such a page. Probably should read No Preference vice I don't care then the link can lead to a dialogue that explains the default or even provides some neutral facts about the other desktops. Keep the facts short. I know that there is a debate about who the Fedora audience is, but if Fedora ever wants to be a contender desktop alternative for the non-techie, just give me something that lets me do my e-mail, facebook, write my college papers or whatever, it has to lose the techie overtones it currently has. Those of us who appreciate Fedora and enjoy living with rawhide will easily be able to quickly adopt the desktop we like or even play with multiple desktops. We can then hand out DVDs with David's menu to friends and associates and say, Hey, try this one. You'll like it!! -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
On 06/29/2009 09:35 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: David wrote: The I don't care just links to whichever desktop is currently the default. People who don't care should (and will, anyway) just keep using Winblow$ or whatever crap they're currently using. If you're going through the effort of downloading an operating system, you should be expected to care about what you're getting. Kevin Kofler I don't think so. I think if someone wants to give linux and Fedora a shot, then lets make it easy for them. Let them go back to MS windows if they like--all that means is that linux/Fedora/free software is not yet at a level they can appreciate or even use without thinking about the technie stuff and then we go back to thre drawing boards and try again (and again...). -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On 06/29/2009 07:20 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: The biggest issue is lack of communication from the only right Desktop - we can't catch changes if these changes are communicated to community too late. Lot of new free desktop techs come from Fedora and we know it and we're working really hard with upstream to solve it and catch current state. But we're unfortunately out of sync with KDE upstream releases and so it's harder sometimes. It helps to drop the foo vs bar fight, finger pointing and get on the irc channel or in mailing lists if necessary and ask questions. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Porting amarok-1.4 to F11
Rex Dieter wrote: Ingvar Hagelund wrote: * Rex Dieter amarok2 supports qtscript (which is why it currently has a dependency on qtscriptbindings) So, it should be possible to access a mounted iPod db in amarok-2.x using qtscript? I'm unfamiliar with programatic access to ipod db's, but theoretically yes. FYI, For folks you really want amarok1 on F-10, F-11: http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showpost.php?p=1232753postcount=11 -- Rex -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: TeX Live 2008 available for testing
Jindrich Novy (jn...@redhat.com) said: Installing : texlive-2008-0.1.fc11.x86_642/92 Error unpacking rpm package texlive-2008-0.1.fc11.x86_64 error: unpacking of archive failed on file /usr/share/texmf: cpio: rename This is caused by the fact that the /usr/share/texmf exists on your system. The new texlive needs to replace it with symlink and RPM doesn't allow to do that if the directory already exists. Please remove the directory manually and try again. Oof. While there are sort of hacky ways to do this, it's best to avoid this at all possible (and I really don't want to have to release note remove this package before upgrading.) Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [Fedora-legal-list] http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono
Jon Stanley (jonstan...@gmail.com) said: However, I don't think there's anything to worry about here. The only reason that we ship mono *at all* is that we're covered by some OIN patents on it. I'm not sure which OIN patents those are, but essentially if Microsoft wants to pick that fight, ... it's not OIN patents, it's that mono is in the OIN list of protected packages. Just clarifying. Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: What decides that a package is multilib?
Rex Dieter (rdie...@math.unl.edu) said: Mary Ellen Foster wrote: Someone has just filed a bug that pl.i586 conflicts with pl.x86_64: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=508515 This is indeed true (I just verified it), but what I don't know is why pl.i586 is in the multilib repository in the first place. How do packages become multilib? Several general rules apply: 1. all -devel pkgs (and dependencies) 2. any pkg containing shlibs (basically matching %_libdir/lib*.so.* plus a whole bunch of other exceptions, but hopefully, that gives the general idea. Yup. If you want to see the specific algorithm used: http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=mash;a=blob_plain;f=mash/multilib.py;hb=HEAD Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono
Another don't use $LANGUAGE because its evil post from RMS. ($LANGUAGE has been Java, Javascript and now C#). As for mono it is simply treated the same as other packages if there are legal issues it can be removed, if not there is no reason to do anything. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono
drago01 wrote: Another don't use $LANGUAGE because its evil post from RMS. So what? His concerns are real. ($LANGUAGE has been Java, Javascript and now C#). Java used to be non-Free, so of course it was bad to depend on it. Especially for those programs which didn't work with the implementations which were Free Software at the time (GCJ/Classpath-based stuff). I'm not familiar with the JavaScript story, but if he really recommended against using it, there was certainly a valid reason. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 15:15 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Bastien Nocera wrote: I'm sure that a KDE hacker with access to a supported fingerprint reader could implement the enrollment facility within an afternoon. There's already an implementation: http://blog.djaara.net/wordpress/2009/ That's a student from Brno, ltinkl and jreznik know him personally, so I'm sure they'll package it (or get the author to package it) as soon as they feel it's ready. Nice, though he didn't contact either myself, or the upstream fprintd list about it, which is why I didn't know about it. Neat. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Niels Haase (a...@fedoraproject.org) said: Magical can be: Shows up a list at the installer where you can chose from Gnome or KDE (both on the same line with no default activation) and on the next line an alternative environment, here you have thinks like E17, XFCE, LXDE ... But you only the them, if you click on alternative. ... of all the suggestions, this seems the worst. At least with spins you don't have to do specific hacks in the installer for each new desktop, you don't have to know at compose time the set of spins that you may want to target, etc. Ideally, the DVD Fedora spin should *die*. Having no target makes it pretty pointless. Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
Roberto Ragusa wrote: (Funny that the order of the desktops has come out alphabetically sorted too) We may want to list XFCE before LXDE as its the more mature option. But I don't have popularity stats for those, so I don't know which one is more popular. The more popular one should be listed first. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Monday 29 June 2009 17:12:42 Bastien Nocera wrote: On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 15:15 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Bastien Nocera wrote: I'm sure that a KDE hacker with access to a supported fingerprint reader could implement the enrollment facility within an afternoon. There's already an implementation: http://blog.djaara.net/wordpress/2009/ That's a student from Brno, ltinkl and jreznik know him personally, so I'm sure they'll package it (or get the author to package it) as soon as they feel it's ready. Nice, though he didn't contact either myself, or the upstream fprintd list about it, which is why I didn't know about it. I asked him to be more in touch with upstream - both KDM and fprint. From what I know he asked for some advise and proposals on mailing list but he wasn't specific about why he need it. But we're again in lack of communication (now from his side)... :( Neat. -- Jaroslav Řezník jrez...@redhat.com Associate Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno Office: +420 532 294 275 Mobile: +420 731 455 332 Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/ -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono
drago01 wrote: Saying mono is evil while having DotGNU seems odd to me (http://www.gnu.org/software/dotgnu/) He also recommends against using DotGNU to develop your new Free Software in (because of the same patent risk as for Mono). I'm not familiar with the JavaScript story, but if he really recommended against using it, there was certainly a valid reason. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html That's a rant against web apps rather than against JavaScript as a language and I agree with that one too: web apps are a way to push proprietary software onto people who claim to use only Free Software. In most cases, a portion of the code runs on your browser (that's where JavaScript comes into play), but is often licensed under a proprietary license, another portion runs on the web server and is completely out of your control (so it's even more proprietary than the average proprietary software). If you're using a proprietary web app, you're NOT using Free Software, but proprietary software, even if the browser you're using is Free Software. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono
On 06/29/2009 08:49 PM, drago01 wrote: On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: drago01 wrote: Another don't use $LANGUAGE because its evil post from RMS. So what? His concerns are real. Depends on how you read them and whether you agree with him or not. And for most cases I don't. Saying mono is evil while having DotGNU seems odd to me (http://www.gnu.org/software/dotgnu/) Did you even read the article? I don't see where FSF cliams mono is evil. Their position is far more nuanced than that. What FSF is suggesting is to treat Mono purely as a (legacy) compatibility layer and not use it for new applications. This is not to say that implementing C# is a bad thing. Free C# implementations permit users to run their C# programs on free platforms, which is good. (The GNU Project has an implementation of C# also, called Portable.NET.) Ideally we want to provide free implementations for all languages that programmers have used. The problem is not in the C# implementations, but rather in Tomboy and other applications written in C#. If we lose the use of C#, we will lose them too. That doesn't make them unethical, but it means that writing them and using them is taking a gratuitous risk. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Heads Up: e2fsprogs library split-out
There have been a few requests to split out the various libraries in e2fsprogs into subpackages: libcom_err(-devel) libss(-devel) libuuid(-devel) Note that libblkid(-devel) has already been split out as it is now part of util-linux-ng (thanks to kzak!) - an email was sent previously about that. The following packages have BuildRequires: on e2fsprogs-devel, so depending on what libs they required from the package, they may need to shift to one of these new subpackages when they go in (hopefully today or tomorrow). I'll send another follow-up mail when it's done. Thanks, -Eric aconway: qpidc aconway: rhm anaconda-maint: anaconda atkac: dump ausil: silo bpepple: evolution-brutus bpepple: libepc cmadams: ufiformat danms: libvirt-cim dcbw: NetworkManager deji: gparted deji: mpich2 deji: nautilus-actions denis: k3d drago01: fsarchiver dwmw2: yaboot ensc: util-vserver gavin: squeak-vm green: lash grenier: testdisk harald: readahead ianweller: lordsawar itamarjp: reiserfs-utils ivazquez: mod_dnssd ixs: e2tools jgranado: parted jnovy: mc jorton: apr jorton: apr-util josef: btrfs-progs jwboyer: jfsutils karlik: gmediaserver kasal: pmount kraxel: xenner kwizart: libewf kzak: util-linux-ng laxathom: gnubversion lvm-team: cryptsetup-luks mbarnes: samba4 mfasheh: ocfs2-tools mitr: usermode mjakubicek: ext3grep nalin: krb5 nhorman: coda nhorman: pam_kcoda oget: muse orphan: luks-tools ovasik: inn ovasik: quota ovasik: star pbrobinson: gupnp pbrobinson: gupnp-tools pbrobinson: rygel rcritten: ipa rishi: anjuta rjones: zerofree rstrode: gnome-utils ruben: gearmand salimma: Io-language sandeen: e2fsprogs sandeen: xfsdump sandeen: xfsprogs sindrepb: gtranslator spot: ntfsprogs ssp: libSM steved: nfs-utils steve: qtparted sundaram: gnote tbzatek: libarchive tgl: postgresql xris: dar -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FAO: Programmers Quick Q?
On 06/29/2009 09:04 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Development#Communication with this in mind. Have a ticket open for a new m-l. devel-apps@ or programming-sig@ Any preference? May I request that you gather a community and get some more progress *before* creating yet another mailing list? We have enough dead or almost dead mailing lists. Adding more isn't useful. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Heads Up: e2fsprogs library split-out
Once upon a time, Eric Sandeen sand...@redhat.com said: There have been a few requests to split out the various libraries in e2fsprogs into subpackages: libcom_err(-devel) libss(-devel) libuuid(-devel) Note that libblkid(-devel) has already been split out as it is now part of util-linux-ng (thanks to kzak!) - an email was sent previously about that. The following packages have BuildRequires: on e2fsprogs-devel, so depending on what libs they required from the package, they may need to shift to one of these new subpackages when they go in (hopefully today or tomorrow). I'll send another follow-up mail when it's done. Thanks, -Eric cmadams: ufiformat This uses libext2fs (for checking if a device is mounted), so no change is needed there. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FAO: Programmers Quick Q?
Any preference? May I request that you gather a community and get some more progress *before* creating yet another mailing list? We have enough dead or almost dead mailing lists. Adding more isn't useful. Rahul Hopefully after seeing this, some may come on board. If not, then Build it and they will come, hopefully. Frank -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Heads Up: e2fsprogs library split-out
On 06/29/2009 09:08 PM, Eric Sandeen wrote: There have been a few requests to split out the various libraries in e2fsprogs into subpackages: libcom_err(-devel) libss(-devel) libuuid(-devel) The following packages have BuildRequires: on e2fsprogs-devel, so depending on what libs they required from the package, they may need to shift to one of these new subpackages when they go in (hopefully today or tomorrow). I'll send another follow-up mail when it's done. Thanks for doing this. It is going to cause some confusion between libuuid and uuid however. These package descriptions could be updated to cross reference each other. sundaram: gnote I will update to change the BR to libuuid-devel when there is a new upstream release. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Kevin Kofler (kevin.kof...@chello.at) said: It's not a default if you're providing a choice. I see no reason why we can't provide a choice of 2 desktops. Because giving people a choice when they can't possibly make a good informed decision is horrible UI. If you've got someone new to Fedora, and they go to the page, asking them to choose between Mumble and Frotz (and Moof, and Wobble), with no other data (as exists right now on get-fedora, or even on the OpenSUSE page), there's no way they can make a useful decision, and it's only going to make their experience worse. Go back to people who have asked for a button in the install to enable /etc/init.d/network vs. NetworkManager, or (heaven forbid) asking for a switch between NM and conman; neither of these are sane UI decisions to make or choices to ask the user. So, I look at the download page now, and I see the default. (which we're going to have no matter what - if you think we should give the user something random, well) It says 'Desktop Edition ... *featuring the GNOME desktop*'. I don't see that as misleading, so, I find your proposal full of unnecessary drama. If you want to change the download page in a way that makes the KDE image more prominent while still remaining useful and informative, or want to change something in comps that makes it more same from a composition install standpoint, go ahead, please. But that's *not the proposal you made*. In fact, the proposal you made reads as I want to promote KDE! We start by ... un-promoting GNOME! When you follow that up in this thread with statements about how the KDE sig shouldn't need to do anything else, and the docs and website people should start providing you content/catering to you (as you yourself suggested, in essence it's core Fedora which needs to change), all that does is make you sound petulant. Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Kevin Kofler (kevin.kof...@chello.at) said: The word representative contains represent. You're supposed to represent the opinions of the people who elected you, not just your own. ... Kevin Kofler (kevin.kof...@chello.at) said: I'm not going to vote against my electoral promises nor against KDE SIG's interests. So, if someone from the XFCE Sig voted for you, you're not going to represent any of their opinions which are against your KDE-centric views? Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Niels Haase (a...@fedoraproject.org) said: Is there any info message telling user something like: You are installing 32bit system on 64bit hardware. Consider using 64bit system for better performance? AFAIK not in Fedora, if I remember me correctly, the SuSE installer shows up such a message if you try to boot a X86 disk on a amd64 capable system. That's a really crappy place for that message, though. What's the user supposed to do there... reboot and then go download another 700MB - 4GB? Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, Bill Nottingham wrote: That's a really crappy place for that message, though. What's the user supposed to do there... reboot and then go download another 700MB - 4GB? umm -- trying to boot and install the x86_86 image on a i686 unit returns basically the same under Anaconda's kernel -- Russ herrold -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FAO: Programmers Quick Q?
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Frank Murphyfrankl...@gmail.com wrote: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Development#Communication with this in mind. Have a ticket open for a new m-l. devel-apps@ or programming-sig@ Any preference? Frank As a software engineer, I am also interested in making Fedora the best development distro out there (I do this by packaging Eclipse plug-ins) and I think the formation of a SIG to look after development tools (much like the Perl SIG) is a good idea but I'm having great difficulty in identifying the need for a separate developer /spin/. Presumably the target audience (people like you and I) has the where-with-all to discover and install their own tools and a pre-set list of tools chosen for them is almost never going to cut it (Netbeans users tend not to care for Eclipse and vice-versa) so who is the spin for, exactly? -- Mat Booth www.matbooth.co.uk -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Heads Up: e2fsprogs library split-out
Bill Nottingham wrote: Eric Sandeen (sand...@redhat.com) said: libcom_err(-devel) libss(-devel) libuuid(-devel) Note that libblkid(-devel) has already been split out as it is now part of util-linux-ng (thanks to kzak!) - an email was sent previously about that. The following packages have BuildRequires: on e2fsprogs-devel, so depending on what libs they required from the package, they may need to shift to one of these new subpackages when they go in (hopefully today or tomorrow). I'll send another follow-up mail when it's done. Any chance that in the interim, e2fsprogs-devel could Require: these new split out packages (if it doesn't already)? For now it only requires libcom_err-devel, from inspection it looks like that's the only set of headers that the e2fsprogs-devel headers include ... I could do this though - but when would it get removed again; would it be better to go with the short sharp shock and just clean it up in the early phase of F12? :) It doesn't much matter to me either way, though, really. Thanks, -Eric -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, Orcan Ogetbil wrote: On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: Kevin Kofler said: It's not a default if you're providing a choice. I see no reason why we can't provide a choice of 2 desktops. Because giving people a choice when they can't possibly make a good informed decision is horrible UI. I am confused. How does this comply with the it doesn't really matter argument which was the primary reasoning that was presented to reject this proposal? no, I said calling it 'gnome' or 'desktop' doesn't really matter. We need a simple default not a choose-your-own-adventure book for downloading images. That's all I ever said. -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
2009/6/29 Seth Vidal skvi...@fedoraproject.org: On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, R P Herrold wrote: On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, Bill Nottingham wrote: That's a really crappy place for that message, though. What's the user supposed to do there... reboot and then go download another 700MB - 4GB? umm -- trying to boot and install the x86_86 image on a i686 unit returns basically the same under Anaconda's kernel which is why i686 isos are the ones users get by default. And that should stay as default. Users who know that they want x86_64 could choose it. Even new users could do it with enough information how to find out if you want to learn something. Thank you too. -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Mat Boothfed...@matbooth.co.uk wrote: Fedora Live Image --- A link that downloads the Gnome or KDE image, picked at random by a script. SNIP Now its just getting silly... What a support nightmare that would be. user I need help fedora-member What desktop are you running? user I dunno ... I just downloaded the default fedora-member . Enjoy DE Russian Roulette :) -Adam -- http://maxamillion.googlepages.com - () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
Adam Miller on 06/29/2009 11:31 AM wrote: Now its just getting silly... What a support nightmare that would be. user I need help fedora-member What desktop are you running? user I dunno ... I just downloaded the default fedora-member . Enjoy DE Russian Roulette :) What if the Fedora version had a suffix? Fedora 11G - Gnome 11K - KDE 11X - XFCE 11S - no desktop (server?) Seems silly, too, yes, but just an idea. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
2009/6/29 Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at: Roberto Ragusa wrote: (Funny that the order of the desktops has come out alphabetically sorted too) We may want to list XFCE before LXDE as its the more mature option. But I don't have popularity stats for those, so I don't know which one is more popular. The more popular one should be listed first. Well, alphabetically sorted is just perfect. No matter what DE might be the most popular. -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
2009/6/29 Jaroslav Reznik jrez...@redhat.com: On Monday 29 June 2009 17:02:36 Michael Cronenworth wrote: Dariusz J. Garbowski on 06/29/2009 09:56 AM wrote: Maybe call it Default then? No, because that's offensive to some people apparently. No, default is not offensive! Gnome Desktop Live Edition (default) is OK for me... +1 -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Michael Cronenworthm...@cchtml.com wrote: What if the Fedora version had a suffix? Fedora 11G - Gnome 11K - KDE 11X - XFCE 11S - no desktop (server?) Seems silly, too, yes, but just an idea. Somewhat silly, but the naming convention could actually help until we run into some new DE (not sure if anyone has plans to pop one up or not) that starts with the same letter as another). Not a bad idea imho if we are to travel down this path. -Adam -- http://maxamillion.googlepages.com - () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
License changed for hightlight
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 hallo, beginning with the release 2.10 of highlight, the license of this package is changed from GPLv2 to GPLv3. Best Regards: Jochen Schmitt -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkpI7z0ACgkQT2AHK6txfgwrxACg1ppjORljvjxvzQwkkUOCE1vP 6L4An3A00HF0C5Co0jQpgOSVutRvCh/f =HPXM -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Mat Boothfed...@matbooth.co.uk wrote: On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Roberto Ragusam...@robertoragusa.it wrote: I propose: FEDORA LIVE CD Fedora includes many desktops. You can choose: [ * ] Fedora Live with GNOME (default) [ ] Fedora Live with KDE [ ] Fedora Live with LXDE [ ] Fedora Live with XFCE (Funny that the order of the desktops has come out alphabetically sorted too) How about: Fedora Live Image --- A link that downloads the Gnome or KDE image, picked at random by a script. ;-) stop right there ... this is becoming really silly now. As if the name of a iso image is the only problem we should care about. We should spend our time and efforts on fixing real issues. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FAO: Programmers Quick Q?
On 29/06/09 17:17, Mat Booth wrote: As a software engineer, I am also interested in making Fedora the best development distro out there (I do this by packaging Eclipse plug-ins) and I think the formation of a SIG to look after development tools That's why the sig should come first. but I'm having great difficulty in identifying the need for a separate developer /spin/. Presumably the target audience (people like you and I) Valid Point has the where-with-all to discover and install their own tools and a pre-set list of tools chosen for them is almost never going to cut it (Netbeans users tend not to care for Eclipse and vice-versa) so who is the spin for, exactly? The hope will be to use it to attract new developers, whether at their work years, or new in\out of College. To get a taste of f\l\oss programming. Frank -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Heads Up: e2fsprogs library split-out
Eric Sandeen sand...@redhat.com writes: Bill Nottingham wrote: Any chance that in the interim, e2fsprogs-devel could Require: these new split out packages (if it doesn't already)? For now it only requires libcom_err-devel, from inspection it looks like that's the only set of headers that the e2fsprogs-devel headers include ... I could do this though - but when would it get removed again; would it be better to go with the short sharp shock and just clean it up in the early phase of F12? :) +1 for just do it. There is not a whole lot of point to refactoring the package if dependent packages don't pick up the refactoring. AFAIR, the only reason postgresql BR's this is because libcom_err is depended on by krb5, which it uses. I wonder whether the separate BR is still needed at all --- shouldn't a BR on krb5-devel be sufficient? regards, tom lane -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 12:31:59PM -0500, Matthew Woehlke wrote: I love how the other side keeps ignoring that we have a chicken-and-egg situation here. We have two problems: 1. Fedora has trouble attracting KDE developers. 2. Fedora presents Gnome as better. Okay, it's been argued into the ground that #2 is justified by #1. The problem is, #1 is *also* justified by #2. Neither of the justifications is going to disappear until the opposing problem disappears. Refusing to do anything is just going to maintain the status-quo (vicious cycle, and all that). That's certainly an argument, though it's a harder one to make - it's not easy to show that changing #1 will result in #2 changing. However, it is easy to argue that treating KDE as equivalent to Gnome without having equivalent developer resources causes some level of cost for our users. Are the long term benefits worth it? Perhaps, but that's hard to quantify. Maybe we'd just end up reducing interest in Fedora as a whole and everyone would suffer. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Raising the bar
Hey all, we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop. We want to identify the small (and sometimes large) roadblocks that make everyday computer use harder than it needs to be, and try to fix them. 'Fit and Finish' is meant to be complementary to the work of the Fedora QA team. They do a great job of ensuring the quality of all the new features that land in Fedora each cycle. But when features are developed and tested on their own, the overall experience of the system as a whole can sometimes end up a bit uneven and rough. 'Fit and Finish' will focus on improving the way our users experience Fedora. To achieve this, we will hold regular test days, each of which will focus on use cases in a certain area. A few ideas for test day topics can be found on the 'Fit and Finish' page already. If you have ideas for other areas that could benefit from this kind of attention, please let us know. Our first test day will focus on display configuration, and will be held on Tuesday, July 7, from 12:00 to 21:00 UTC (8am - 5pm EDT), in the fedora-fit-and-finish irc channel on FreeNode. Please come and join us there ! Matthias Clasen for the Desktop team -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Niels Haase wrote: I wonder if we could find also a way to get the 32bit vs. 64bit choice also so smart integrated? Like a additional radio button at the end for choosing 32bit or 64bit. PS: Hope that this not cause the next long discussion about the default arch :) How about, instead of asking for arch directly, we have a series of questions to determine if they have a 64bit processor? 0. Button for I know what I want (direct choice) 1. Is your computer older (built/purchased new before 200X)? 2. Is it a netbook? (well, in this case should they really be getting optical media anyways? liveusb-creator can download on its own) 3. ... I'm probably not the most qualified to get the most effective questions, but it's a thought. - --Ben -- Regards, Niels -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpJF6IACgkQiPi+MRHG3qSBvwCcCl4skiej+IzwZp9d8tno20fW NnkAoMCZJ4MiKkvc7rTqWXuB2pblafYh =vbnF -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Heads Up: e2fsprogs library split-out
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Tom Lane wrote: Eric Sandeen sand...@redhat.com writes: Bill Nottingham wrote: Any chance that in the interim, e2fsprogs-devel could Require: these new split out packages (if it doesn't already)? For now it only requires libcom_err-devel, from inspection it looks like that's the only set of headers that the e2fsprogs-devel headers include ... I could do this though - but when would it get removed again; would it be better to go with the short sharp shock and just clean it up in the early phase of F12? :) +1 for just do it. There is not a whole lot of point to refactoring the package if dependent packages don't pick up the refactoring. AFAIR, the only reason postgresql BR's this is because libcom_err is depended on by krb5, which it uses. I wonder whether the separate BR is still needed at all --- shouldn't a BR on krb5-devel be sufficient? regards, tom lane If not, it's a packaging error in krb5. - --Ben -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpJGMUACgkQiPi+MRHG3qRcWACfV2ExmFoKzKbWTrdh/AhHCrmV HmYAoJxYKq/g6LhDDo+BZCchp3Fa0/Wm =jEo9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Raising the bar
2009/6/29 Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com: Hey all, we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop. If you wish to improve *user* experience, then you should focus entirely on actual Fedora releases rather than on Rawhide. However I see that in testing days you still encourage only users with up-to-date Rawhide installations. That's not an option for wide audience, and, therefore this initiative will be doomed. -- With best regards! -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Raising the bar
we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop. If you wish to improve *user* experience, then you should focus entirely on actual Fedora releases rather than on Rawhide. However I see that in testing days you still encourage only users with up-to-date Rawhide installations. That's not an option for wide audience, and, therefore this initiative will be doomed. Focus on rawhide will mean the next release will see the improvements :) Peter -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Ben Boeckelmaths...@gmail.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Niels Haase wrote: I wonder if we could find also a way to get the 32bit vs. 64bit choice also so smart integrated? Like a additional radio button at the end for choosing 32bit or 64bit. PS: Hope that this not cause the next long discussion about the default arch :) How about, instead of asking for arch directly, we have a series of questions to determine if they have a 64bit processor? 0. Button for I know what I want (direct choice) 1. Is your computer older (built/purchased new before 200X)? 2. Is it a netbook? (well, in this case should they really be getting optical media anyways? liveusb-creator can download on its own) 3. ... I'm probably not the most qualified to get the most effective questions, but it's a thought. User wants to download fedora .. sees the download page .. thinks wtf is that ... moves on to ubuntu/opensuse/mandrivia/whatever -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Raising the bar
On 06/29/2009 03:48 PM, Peter Lemenkov wrote: 2009/6/29 Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com: Hey all, we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop. If you wish to improve *user* experience, then you should focus entirely on actual Fedora releases rather than on Rawhide. However I see that in testing days you still encourage only users with up-to-date Rawhide installations. That's not an option for wide audience, and, therefore this initiative will be doomed. These aren't typically the sort of issues you can fix in a running release. UI is one of those things we expect to remain stable through the cycle. Woe to he who removes the bugs the user has gotten used to. --CJD -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Raising the bar
2009/6/30 Casey Dahlin cdah...@redhat.com: These aren't typically the sort of issues you can fix in a running release. UI is one of those things we expect to remain stable through the cycle. Even if average user(s) feel uncomfortable? Oh, come on! -- With best regards! -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Raising the bar
On Jun 29, 2009, at 16:05, Peter Lemenkov lemen...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/6/29 Peter Robinson pbrobin...@gmail.com: Focus on rawhide will mean the next release will see the improvements :) That means, that the next release will be untested, as usual. So why create another useless initiative? Please, keep in mind, that almost nodoby using Rawhide == nobody will participate except few paid Red Hat developers == useless initiative. I repeat - this initiative should be based only (exclusively) on current releases. As much fun as it is to make up stats on the spot, I would ask you to show some proof that nobody uses rawhide. The amount of bug reports and users reporting proble S on mailing lists, irc, and forums begs to differ with your statement. -- Jes -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Raising the bar
On Monday 29 June 2009 21:27:27 Matthias Clasen wrote: Hey all, we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop. We want to identify the small (and sometimes large) roadblocks that make everyday computer use harder than it needs to be, and try to fix them. Does this apply only to so called Fedora desktop = Gnome or to Fedora Desktop - as desktop environments (KDE, LXDE, XFCE4)? If only for Gnome, can we attend this effort either? Speaking in name of KDE SIG? It looks really interesting for me - avoid small bad user experience. Jaroslav 'Fit and Finish' is meant to be complementary to the work of the Fedora QA team. They do a great job of ensuring the quality of all the new features that land in Fedora each cycle. But when features are developed and tested on their own, the overall experience of the system as a whole can sometimes end up a bit uneven and rough. 'Fit and Finish' will focus on improving the way our users experience Fedora. To achieve this, we will hold regular test days, each of which will focus on use cases in a certain area. A few ideas for test day topics can be found on the 'Fit and Finish' page already. If you have ideas for other areas that could benefit from this kind of attention, please let us know. Our first test day will focus on display configuration, and will be held on Tuesday, July 7, from 12:00 to 21:00 UTC (8am - 5pm EDT), in the fedora-fit-and-finish irc channel on FreeNode. Please come and join us there ! Matthias Clasen for the Desktop team -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Raising the bar
Focus on rawhide will mean the next release will see the improvements :) That means, that the next release will be untested, as usual. So why create another useless initiative? Huh? your on the devel list and you don't use rawhide? Maybe I should introduce you to the fedora-test list. Please, keep in mind, that almost nodoby using Rawhide == nobody will participate except few paid Red Hat developers == useless initiative. I repeat - this initiative should be based only (exclusively) on current releases. What a load of crap! I use rawhide as do hundreds of other testers. I don't use it on my work laptop until feature freeze but I do use it on my home laptop, netbook, a number of VMs and servers and I know LOTs of other people do.. Given that the release CD/DVD images/isos don't get updated and until they update there's no improvement what's the point? Peter -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Raising the bar
2009/6/30 Jesse Keating jkeat...@j2solutions.net: As much fun as it is to make up stats on the spot, I would ask you to show some proof that nobody uses rawhide. Please, take a look at smolts statistics, for example. Don't fool yourself with wrong statement that many users (not redhat employees) using Rawhide. -- With best regards! -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Raising the bar
On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 23:48 +0400, Peter Lemenkov wrote: If you wish to improve *user* experience, then you should focus entirely on actual Fedora releases rather than on Rawhide. However I see that in testing days you still encourage only users with up-to-date Rawhide installations. That's not an option for wide audience, and, therefore this initiative will be doomed. Making it easy for a wide audience to participate without requiring a rawhide installation is certainly a goal. We will have live cds available for the test days, just like you know from other Fedora test days. As soon as live cd creation works again on rawhide... Thanks for raising this point, Matthias -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Raising the bar
2009/6/30 Peter Robinson pbrobin...@gmail.com: I repeat - this initiative should be based only (exclusively) on current releases. What a load of crap! I use rawhide as do hundreds of other testers. You contradicting to yourself - if you have many (enough to say that their number is huge) crash test dummies with Rawhide enabled, when you don't need any other special initiatives. However, I still think that you need more *users*, average users. I repeat - users don't use Rawhide, and this initiative will be doomed. -- With best regards! -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Raising the bar
On Jun 29, 2009, at 16:25, Peter Lemenkov lemen...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/6/30 Jesse Keating jkeat...@j2solutions.net: As much fun as it is to make up stats on the spot, I would ask you to show some proof that nobody uses rawhide. Please, take a look at smolts statistics, for example. Don't fool yourself with wrong statement that many users (not redhat employees) using Rawhide. -- Smolt is totally opt in and not likely to be opted in by rawhide testers who reinstall often. The feed back we get from rawhide is enough to continue development efforts there. Without rawhide there would be no releases. -- Jes -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Raising the bar
Casey Dahlin wrote: On 06/29/2009 03:48 PM, Peter Lemenkov wrote: 2009/6/29 Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com: Hey all, we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop. If you wish to improve *user* experience, then you should focus entirely on actual Fedora releases rather than on Rawhide. However I see that in testing days you still encourage only users with up-to-date Rawhide installations. That's not an option for wide audience, and, therefore this initiative will be doomed. These aren't typically the sort of issues you can fix in a running release. UI is one of those things we expect to remain stable through the cycle. Woe to he who removes the bugs the user has gotten used to. You could always test F11 and fix in F12, of course. Best of both worlds? -Eric -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Raising the bar
On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 23:48 +0400, Peter Lemenkov wrote: 2009/6/29 Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com: Hey all, we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop. If you wish to improve *user* experience, then you should focus entirely on actual Fedora releases rather than on Rawhide. However I see that in testing days you still encourage only users with up-to-date Rawhide installations. That's not an option for wide audience, and, therefore this initiative will be doomed. -- With best regards! I have difficulty reconciling your last sentence, and your .sig. In addition to rawhide live media, as Matthias mentioned, we'll be happy to take bug reports against current releases. They're of slightly less value, since they are effectively a list of things to check the next rawhide against, and may never get fixed in the stream they're reported against due to all the usual technical reasons (backport difficulty, etc), but that doesn't mean they're valueless. - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 21:07:50 +0100, Mat Booth fed...@matbooth.co.uk wrote: It's a silly suggestion for a silly thread. I've never had the impression that Fedora was targeted toward the newbie user demographic. My MP3 swilling, DVD consuming former Windows using friends have mostly turned to the brown side (ubuntu) -- Fedora's for people who want to get some work done. My opinion on who Fedora is for, is that Fedora is for people that want to participate, not just consume. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Raising the bar
Hi Peter, On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Peter Lemenkovlemen...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/6/30 Peter Robinson pbrobin...@gmail.com: I repeat - this initiative should be based only (exclusively) on current releases. What a load of crap! I use rawhide as do hundreds of other testers. You contradicting to yourself - if you have many (enough to say that their number is huge) crash test dummies with Rawhide enabled, when you don't need any other special initiatives. However, I still think that you need more *users*, average users. I repeat - users don't use Rawhide, and this initiative will be doomed. I think your initial point was a reasonable one. However, I don't think there's really any need to pick a fight here. Allow some time for people to respond to your points. And perhaps doomed was a bit overly dramatic, no? Another part of raising the bar is making this list a bit more user friendly. :) Thanks, Jon -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
Does archetecture get exported anywhere by javascript? If so, it would provide a simple way to query the users' hardware. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Raising the bar
Hey Peter, On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Peter Robinsonpbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: Focus on rawhide will mean the next release will see the improvements :) That means, that the next release will be untested, as usual. So why create another useless initiative? Huh? your on the devel list and you don't use rawhide? Maybe I should introduce you to the fedora-test list. Please, keep in mind, that almost nodoby using Rawhide == nobody will participate except few paid Red Hat developers == useless initiative. I repeat - this initiative should be based only (exclusively) on current releases. What a load of crap! I use rawhide as do hundreds of other testers. I don't use it on my work laptop until feature freeze but I do use it on my home laptop, netbook, a number of VMs and servers and I know LOTs of other people do.. Given that the release CD/DVD images/isos don't get updated and until they update there's no improvement what's the point? Let's try not to let doomsayers drag down the level of debate here. The other Peter made a reasonable point that we can address without calling it a load of crap probably. We have a thread here that should be a light in the darkness. A way for us all to make something we love even better. Let's try to keep it positive. Thanks, Jon -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Raising the bar
Am Montag, den 29.06.2009, 15:27 -0400 schrieb Matthias Clasen: Hey all, we'd like to announce the 'Fit and Finish' initiative for Fedora, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fit_and_Finish with the goal to improve the user experience of the Fedora desktop. We want to identify the small (and sometimes large) roadblocks that make everyday computer use harder than it needs to be, and try to fix them. I would like my keyboard mapping to stay consistent during a release (and between releases!) I've given up bug reporting now, I always fix it myself. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Suggestion re FESCO Ticket #170
2009/6/29 Mat Booth fed...@matbooth.co.uk: On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 5:52 PM, drago01drag...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Mat Boothfed...@matbooth.co.uk wrote: On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Roberto Ragusam...@robertoragusa.it wrote: I propose: FEDORA LIVE CD Fedora includes many desktops. You can choose: [ * ] Fedora Live with GNOME (default) [ ] Fedora Live with KDE [ ] Fedora Live with LXDE [ ] Fedora Live with XFCE (Funny that the order of the desktops has come out alphabetically sorted too) How about: Fedora Live Image --- A link that downloads the Gnome or KDE image, picked at random by a script. ;-) stop right there ... this is becoming really silly now. It's a silly suggestion for a silly thread. I've never had the impression that Fedora was targeted toward the newbie user demographic. My MP3 swilling, DVD consuming former Windows using friends have mostly turned to the brown side (ubuntu) -- Fedora's for people who want to get some work done. Well, i think fedora is for people who like it to have cutting edge software even trough the lifetime, like new kernel series, updated KDE, and and and. All the things they cant have with other distros like openSUSE (well possible with lots of more or less dangerous extra repos) or Ubuntu in the stable releasecycle. -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
