Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 3:04 AM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski < domi...@greysector.net> wrote: > Really? Have you tried? Have you tried with some first-time user? I don't > know > so I'm asking. > As I said It was tried by a LUG here. Most of the users were newbies but a few had some experience. And almost all of them found the startup menu too confusing to handle. > Was it specifically because there were too many applications installed > or was it something else? > According to the feedbacks we received, there were too many tools to do the same work. Also the menu had too many options which made it difficult to get the best available tool. As a newbie, instead of testing some 4-6 tools they are more interested in getting an optimized selection at first. But after a week or two, they tend to explore around and this is when the repositories are required. -- Aditya Patawari Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD http://blog.adityapatawari.com/ https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania India -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Tuesday, 15 September 2009 at 17:47, Aditya Patawari wrote: > On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski < > domi...@greysector.net> wrote: > > > What do you mean when you say it "will only clutter the space"? > > By this I mean to say that if we give 4 gb pre-installed stuff then menu and > workspace will be too cluttered. It will be hard to find the application you > want to work upon. Really? Have you tried? Have you tried with some first-time user? I don't know so I'm asking. > > What makes you say it will > > confuse the user? Have you actually tried giving users two DVDs, one with > > software preinstalled and one with RPMs in local repo and asking which they > > find less confusing or are you just guessing? > > > A few months ago a local LUG here created a custom Live DVD from a > mainstream Linux (wasn't fedora). The size was about 2gb. Although regular > users managed but feedback from newbies wasn't so positive regarding the > overall ease of use. Was it specifically because there were too many applications installed or was it something else? Regards, R. -- Fedora http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Rathann RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org | MPlayer http://mplayerhq.hu "Faith manages." -- Delenn to Lennier in Babylon 5:"Confessions and Lamentations" -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Benny Amorsen wrote: > Colin Walters writes: > >> I'd imagine that running the "live Anaconda" UI from inside the GDM X >> session wouldn't take significantly more resources than the Anaconda >> OS after creating an image that doesn't have games, etc. > > Images sound significantly more difficult to create and maintain than > kickstart-files. > > I would really hate to lose kickstart. No one's suggesting replacing kickstart, actually I think we way undersell it. What I'm talking about is the mode where the image boots directly into Anaconda as a complete OS should instead be a live image with Anaconda as an application, which for the most part would be the same except you'd gain the ability to run say Firefox (or any other app; games), or do "yum install" during the install. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
Colin Walters writes: > I'd imagine that running the "live Anaconda" UI from inside the GDM X > session wouldn't take significantly more resources than the Anaconda > OS after creating an image that doesn't have games, etc. Images sound significantly more difficult to create and maintain than kickstart-files. I would really hate to lose kickstart. /Benny -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On 09/15/2009 02:01 PM, John Reiser wrote: > On 09/15/2009 10:29 AM, Andre Robatino wrote: >> I'm using the latest F11 version of squashfs-tools on a fully updated >> x86_64 F11 box. Just discovered that it works on >> Fedora-11-i686-Live.iso, but fails with F10-i686-Live.iso. So the new >> question is, why doesn't it work with the F10 image? > > That's a bug, please file in bugzilla, with *specific* version info. > Include the checksum of each *.iso, just to be sure. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=523504 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On 09/15/2009 10:29 AM, Andre Robatino wrote: I'm using the latest F11 version of squashfs-tools on a fully updated x86_64 F11 box. Just discovered that it works on Fedora-11-i686-Live.iso, but fails with F10-i686-Live.iso. So the new question is, why doesn't it work with the F10 image? That's a bug, please file in bugzilla, with *specific* version info. Include the checksum of each *.iso, just to be sure. Also, after expanding squashfs.img for F11, it gives me another single huge (over 3 GB) file ext3fs.img. ext3fs.img is a complete, mountable filesystem. mount -o loop ext3fs.img /mnt/foo All the files are there with their actual names, actual contents, etc. So rsync will work on the tree /mnt/foo just as well as rsync works on any actual file system tree. The downside is each rsync session requires processor cycles on both ends. The drawing card of the new zsync tool is that the rsync CPU time on the "master" side need be done only once; the results are cached as a companion file to each existing file. The companion file contains the checksums for chunks of the [new] file. The master side http server just serves the companion file like any other file. The zsync tool retrieves the whole companion file, does the rsync checksum computations for the local old file, then asks the master for the appropriate partial content (HTTP code 206) of the chunks that the local side does not have already. The gain is that the companion file is smaller. The risk is that anybody who can manufacture collisions for the checksum can pollute the result. -- -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On 09/15/2009 01:15 PM, John Reiser wrote: >> I tried doing this with the Live CDs for F10 and F11: > >> Parallel unsquashfs: Using 1 processor >> FATAL ERROR aborting: failed to read fragment table > >> What am I doing wrong? (I'm using the i686 live CDs. > > What versions are involved? [unsquashfs -v -ll foo.img] > > unsquashfs version 4.0 works for me on >F12-Snap2-i686-Live.iso/LiveOS/squashfs.img > when run on either Fedora 11 or rawhide for Fedora 12. I'm using the latest F11 version of squashfs-tools on a fully updated x86_64 F11 box. Just discovered that it works on Fedora-11-i686-Live.iso, but fails with F10-i686-Live.iso. So the new question is, why doesn't it work with the F10 image? Also, after expanding squashfs.img for F11, it gives me another single huge (over 3 GB) file ext3fs.img. I know that rsync doesn't work particularly well between install images - going between the F11 Preview and Final DVDs required about half the full ISO size, while the deltaiso was more like 5%. It would be completely useless for the leap from Fedora N to (N+1). Unless there is a way to expand the Live image into a file tree where many of the files haven't changed, it looks like rsync won't be much help here. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
I tried doing this with the Live CDs for F10 and F11: Parallel unsquashfs: Using 1 processor FATAL ERROR aborting: failed to read fragment table What am I doing wrong? (I'm using the i686 live CDs. What versions are involved? [unsquashfs -v -ll foo.img] unsquashfs version 4.0 works for me on F12-Snap2-i686-Live.iso/LiveOS/squashfs.img when run on either Fedora 11 or rawhide for Fedora 12. -- -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski < domi...@greysector.net> wrote: > What do you mean when you say it "will only clutter the space"? By this I mean to say that if we give 4 gb pre-installed stuff then menu and workspace will be too cluttered. It will be hard to find the application you want to work upon. > It will be on > the DVD anyway, either preinstalled or as RPMs. Yes, It will be on DVD but uninstalled packages will not show on main menu. > What makes you say it will > confuse the user? Have you actually tried giving users two DVDs, one with > software preinstalled and one with RPMs in local repo and asking which they > find less confusing or are you just guessing? > A few months ago a local LUG here created a custom Live DVD from a mainstream Linux (wasn't fedora). The size was about 2gb. Although regular users managed but feedback from newbies wasn't so positive regarding the overall ease of use. -- Aditya Patawari Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD http://blog.adityapatawari.com/ https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania India -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On 09/14/2009 03:48 PM, Andre Robatino wrote:
> On 09/14/2009 12:05 PM, John Reiser wrote:
>>> Deltaisos are capable of saving roughly half the download size in
>>> going from Fedora N to Fedora (N+1), but only work for installation
>>> images, not live images. Is there any form of delta compression for
>>> live images which is competitive with this?
>>
>> It hasn't been productized, but approximately:
>>unsquashfs old-Live.img old-Live.tree # local ("slave")
>>unsquashfs new-Live.img new-Live.tree # remote ("master")
>>rsync remote:new-Live.tree local:old-Live.tree # "delta
>> compression" happens here
>>mksquashfs old-Live.tree new-Live.img # local
>
> Has anyone tried this on existing live images to see how much is saved
> (say going from a Fedora N to Fedora (N+1) Live CD)? I'm skeptical that
> rsync, which is completely general, would be as efficient as something
> specialized such as {make,apply}deltaiso. It may be necessary for
> someone to create a specialized tool for delta compression between live
> images, in order to be able to compress as well as deltaisos currently
> do for the install images.
I tried doing this with the Live CDs for F10 and F11. Almost the entire
content is in a single file LiveOS/squashfs.img. Attempting to use
unsquashfs on this file gives
Parallel unsquashfs: Using 1 processor
FATAL ERROR aborting: failed to read fragment table
What am I doing wrong? (I'm using the i686 live CDs. I originally
tried it on an x86_64 host, then on an i686 host after reading somewhere
that might be the problem, but it made no difference.)
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Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Monday, 14 September 2009 at 22:41, Aditya Patawari wrote: > On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:00 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > > I think that if we're going to ship software, > > we should also preinstall it on the live image. Otherwise users can't try > > it > > out right away when starting the live system and they have to post-install > > it manually after their installation. > > > > The problem with this is that giving 4 GB of pre-installed stuff will only > clutter the space and might end up confusing the user. What do you mean when you say it "will only clutter the space"? It will be on the DVD anyway, either preinstalled or as RPMs. What makes you say it will confuse the user? Have you actually tried giving users two DVDs, one with software preinstalled and one with RPMs in local repo and asking which they find less confusing or are you just guessing? Regards, R. -- Fedora http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Rathann RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org | MPlayer http://mplayerhq.hu "Faith manages." -- Delenn to Lennier in Babylon 5:"Confessions and Lamentations" -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Aditya Patawari wrote: > Initially I was also thinking of producing a larger image to include more > packages but after reading Colin's view I also thinking that instead of > creating a large image with all pre-installed stuff, a large image with an > internal repository can be created. It will reduce the user's need of > accessing external repository without having a lot of stuff installed which > a new user might find confusing and cluttered. It will leave the basic "try > before use" feature of the live cd will remain as it is. While I really prefer the idea of a live DVD over a normal install DVD, just filling it with extra software seems like a bit of a waste. What would be awesome (but understandably difficult) would have a grub menu showing KDE / GNOME / XFCE at boot, and use that as the live DE. It'd be a painless way try different DEs and pretty damn cool. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:00 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > I think that if we're going to ship software, > we should also preinstall it on the live image. Otherwise users can't try > it > out right away when starting the live system and they have to post-install > it manually after their installation. > The problem with this is that giving 4 GB of pre-installed stuff will only clutter the space and might end up confusing the user. A better alternative could be to increase the size of install image to nearly 1 GB to accomodate some more packages and keep the rest of the packages in the inbuilt repo. -- Aditya Patawari Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD http://blog.adityapatawari.com/ https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania India -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
Aditya Patawari wrote: > Actually instead of increasing the size and getting a cluttered install, I > am planning to include an internal repository. After installation end user > will get the normal live cd stuff and an inbuilt repo which can be used to > install packages as per the need. It will reduce the need of internet and > will also increase the package installation speed. I don't like that idea at all. I think that if we're going to ship software, we should also preinstall it on the live image. Otherwise users can't try it out right away when starting the live system and they have to post-install it manually after their installation. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On 09/14/2009 12:05 PM, John Reiser wrote:
>> Deltaisos are capable of saving roughly half the download size in
>> going from Fedora N to Fedora (N+1), but only work for installation
>> images, not live images. Is there any form of delta compression for
>> live images which is competitive with this?
>
> It hasn't been productized, but approximately:
>unsquashfs old-Live.img old-Live.tree # local ("slave")
>unsquashfs new-Live.img new-Live.tree # remote ("master")
>rsync remote:new-Live.tree local:old-Live.tree # "delta
> compression" happens here
>mksquashfs old-Live.tree new-Live.img # local
Has anyone tried this on existing live images to see how much is saved
(say going from a Fedora N to Fedora (N+1) Live CD)? I'm skeptical that
rsync, which is completely general, would be as efficient as something
specialized such as {make,apply}deltaiso. It may be necessary for
someone to create a specialized tool for delta compression between live
images, in order to be able to compress as well as deltaisos currently
do for the install images.
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Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 09:31:48 -0700, John Reiser wrote: > > Squashfs and lzma have been living together happily for years: > http://www.squashfs-lzma.org/ Are you sure that squashfs in Fedora Project > is not using lzma? The squashfs-tools srpm does not include the squashfs-lmza patches. It just has the 4.0 tbz file and a patch for handing compiler options in SOURCES. I belive the problem has been Fedora rarely using kernel modules that aren't in mainline. squashfs-lzma is not mainline at this time. But both squashfs and lzma have been included in recent mainline kernels. Lougher had said he was going to try to get the patches into 2.6.31, but didn't end up making it. I haven't seen anything yet indicating that they got into the 2.6.32 merge window, but there is still time. It's probably too late for F12 even if it did make it in to 2.6.32. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Kushal Das wrote: > They can simply use the regular DVD in that case directly. > Regular DVD won't give the "try before you install" feature. Also just like live CD this can be used as rescue disk too. -- Aditya Patawari Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD http://blog.adityapatawari.com/ https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania India -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Colin Walters (walt...@verbum.org) said: >> * De-duplicates the install path, allowing us to focus on streamlining >> one single path > > Given the requirements for server installs (kickstart, etc.) I don't know > that you can ever go to live-only (unless you really *shrink* the live > image.) I'd imagine that running the "live Anaconda" UI from inside the GDM X session wouldn't take significantly more resources than the Anaconda OS after creating an image that doesn't have games, etc. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
Colin Walters (walt...@verbum.org) said: > * De-duplicates the install path, allowing us to focus on streamlining > one single path Given the requirements for server installs (kickstart, etc.) I don't know that you can ever go to live-only (unless you really *shrink* the live image.) Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:54 PM, Aditya Patawari wrote: > I agree that it will take up more space but its a price which most of us > will be ready to pay. Bad Internet connection is more common than smaller > hard disks. Also if someone is concern about the disk space so much than > he'll be using live cd than dvd. Primarily Live DVD is to help those who do > not have internet access or a bad connection. They can simply use the regular DVD in that case directly. Kushal -- http://fedoraproject.org http://kushaldas.in -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > New: > - user downloads DVD live iso > - user partitions, has to include space for all other software on DVD (!) > - user installs > - user reboots > - user can pick from arbitary set of software to add on > - additional software can be selected from network > > How is this better? > > I agree that it will take up more space but its a price which most of us will be ready to pay. Bad Internet connection is more common than smaller hard disks. Also if someone is concern about the disk space so much than he'll be using live cd than dvd. Primarily Live DVD is to help those who do not have internet access or a bad connection. -- Aditya Patawari Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD http://blog.adityapatawari.com/ https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania India -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:08 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > We've been describing that future for a while. In the meantime, having > to actually install uninstalled versions of random software seems > inefficient. Well, there are a few other virtues to having a larger image, namely: * Can use web browser to find out more information about applications (and in general, use other live tools) * De-duplicates the install path, allowing us to focus on streamlining one single path -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
Colin Walters (walt...@verbum.org) said: > > New: > > - user downloads DVD live iso > > - user partitions, has to include space for all other software on DVD (!) > > - user installs > > - user reboots > > - user can pick from arbitary set of software to add on > > - additional software can be selected from network > > Because in the future we will we have a better UI than the current > Add/Remove applications for installing desktop software at least, and > this way Anaconda doesn't need to maintain a package selection UI. We've been describing that future for a while. In the meantime, having to actually install uninstalled versions of random software seems inefficient. Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > New: > - user downloads DVD live iso > - user partitions, has to include space for all other software on DVD (!) > - user installs > - user reboots > - user can pick from arbitary set of software to add on > - additional software can be selected from network Because in the future we will we have a better UI than the current Add/Remove applications for installing desktop software at least, and this way Anaconda doesn't need to maintain a package selection UI. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
Aditya Patawari (adi...@adityapatawari.com) said: > > How would this be different from each LiveCD group just targeting > > a DVD size and changing their spin appropriately? > > Actually instead of increasing the size and getting a cluttered install, I > am planning to include an internal repository. After installation end user > will get the normal live cd stuff and an inbuilt repo which can be used to > install packages as per the need. It will reduce the need of internet and > will also increase the package installation speed. ... how is that significantly different than what we have now? Now: - user downloads DVD iso - user picks from arbitrary set of software - additional software can be selected from network - user installs New: - user downloads DVD live iso - user partitions, has to include space for all other software on DVD (!) - user installs - user reboots - user can pick from arbitary set of software to add on - additional software can be selected from network How is this better? Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > How would this be different from each LiveCD group just targeting > a DVD size and changing their spin appropriately? > Actually instead of increasing the size and getting a cluttered install, I am planning to include an internal repository. After installation end user will get the normal live cd stuff and an inbuilt repo which can be used to install packages as per the need. It will reduce the need of internet and will also increase the package installation speed. -- Aditya Patawari Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD http://blog.adityapatawari.com/ https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania India -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
Deltaisos are capable of saving roughly half the download size in
going from Fedora N to Fedora (N+1), but only work for installation
images, not live images. Is there any form of delta compression for
live images which is competitive with this?
It hasn't been productized, but approximately:
unsquashfs old-Live.img old-Live.tree # local ("slave")
unsquashfs new-Live.img new-Live.tree # remote ("master")
rsync remote:new-Live.tree local:old-Live.tree # "delta compression"
happens here
mksquashfs old-Live.tree new-Live.img # local
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Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 08:34:43 -0400, "Paul W. Frields" wrote: > > To clarify, what I was talking about was the fact that the > Installation DVD is really just a continuation of what has shipped > since time immemorial in Red Hat Linux many years ago. It doesn't > have any particular target. At the same time, our Live CDs are highly > constrained by a combination of (1) the 700 MB limit, and (2) our > desire -- a worthy one, IMHO -- to keep them usable in as many > languages as possible. Note that there are already Live DVDs and at least one (Games Spin) that is limited by the 4 GiB iso size so as to be downloadable on FAT systems. There is also a good chance that Squashfs will support lzma compression by F13, which should be a noticeable help to spins up against their iso size limits. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
Note that there are already Live DVDs and at least one (Games Spin) that is
limited by the 4 GiB iso size so as to be downloadable on FAT systems.
Many people who have a choice prefer USB2.0 flash memory storage over DVD
because it has much lower latency (seeks are much faster) and does not
degrade the drive [wear] nor the platter [scratches] during frequent or
intensive use. The downside is lower capacity in readily-available units
("4GB" [or even "2GB"] instead of "4.7GB"), higher initial cost for media
(typical in US: 4GB flash $9; DVD+R $0.40), different physical attachment,
different BIOS capability.
There is also a good chance that Squashfs will support lzma compression
by F13, which should be a noticeable help to spins up against their iso
size limits.
Squashfs and lzma have been living together happily for years:
http://www.squashfs-lzma.org/ Are you sure that squashfs in Fedora Project
is not using lzma?
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Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
Aditya Patawari (adi...@adityapatawari.com) said: > I was just reading the mails about the Fedora print magazine. There > Paul Frields said that "In the longer term we really do want to move > away from the Install DVD to a Live DVD that has more > relevant applications and content". We didn't had any SIG for creating > Live DVD and Live DVD spin. So I have started the same. The main motive of > the SIG will be to roll out one live DVD per fedora release which will have > all the packages of live cd and other packages as suggested by the > community. For this to be a success, community support is very much > required. Interested contributors please join the SIG at > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD . Any kind of suggestions or > pointers are most > welcome. How would this be different from each LiveCD group just targeting a DVD size and changing their spin appropriately? Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
Two questions: 1) Deltaisos are capable of saving roughly half the download size in going from Fedora N to Fedora (N+1), but only work for installation images, not live images. Is there any form of delta compression for live images which is competitive with this? 2) (A little off topic) The installation images are still labeled i386, even though after the two package rebuilds, all packages on the disk will be i686. The live CDs are correctly labeled i686, presumably the live DVDs will be also. Are there any plans for F13 to relabel the installation images, and the repo directory names, to stop referring to i386? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
Initially I was also thinking of producing a larger image to include more packages but after reading Colin's view I also thinking that instead of creating a large image with all pre-installed stuff, a large image with an internal repository can be created. It will reduce the user's need of accessing external repository without having a lot of stuff installed which a new user might find confusing and cluttered. It will leave the basic "try before use" feature of the live cd will remain as it is. On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > To clarify, what I was talking about was the fact that the > Installation DVD is really just a continuation of what has shipped > since time immemorial in Red Hat Linux many years ago. It doesn't > have any particular target. At the same time, our Live CDs are highly > constrained by a combination of (1) the 700 MB limit, and (2) our > desire -- a worthy one, IMHO -- to keep them usable in as many > languages as possible. > > So whenever we talk about media that includes a bunch of applications > that users do really want, but we can't include on a CD-sized medium, > we fall back to the DVD, which loses much of the appeal of the Live > image. I think the Desktop SIG has already been discussing the need > for a larger image due to constantly having to bump out useful > applications to stay under the CD size limit. At the same time, the > Installation DVD does provide a helpful testing bed for Anaconda. > > Mainly, I was just interested in the idea of existing SIGs feeling > empowered to produce their Live spins for larger media, rather than > everyone needing more applications having to fall back to the > Installation DVD. I'm not sure what an equally untargeted generic > Live spin really achieves, but at the same time, if there are > contributors interested in producing one, our spin process certainly > permits it. > > -- > Paul W. Frieldshttp://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ > irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > fedora-desktop-l...@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -- Aditya Patawari Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD http://blog.adityapatawari.com/ https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania India -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 10:07:46PM +0530, Aditya Patawari wrote: >I was just reading the mails about the Fedora print magazine. There >Paul Frields said that "In the longer term we really do want to move >away from the Install DVD to a Live DVD that has more >relevant applications and content". We didn't had any SIG for creating >Live DVD and Live DVD spin. So I have started the same. The main motive of >the SIG will be to roll out one live DVD per fedora release which will >have all the packages of live cd and other packages as suggested by the >community. For this to be a success, community support is very much >required. Interested contributors please join the SIG at >[1]https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD .� Any kind of suggestions >or pointers are most >welcome. To clarify, what I was talking about was the fact that the Installation DVD is really just a continuation of what has shipped since time immemorial in Red Hat Linux many years ago. It doesn't have any particular target. At the same time, our Live CDs are highly constrained by a combination of (1) the 700 MB limit, and (2) our desire -- a worthy one, IMHO -- to keep them usable in as many languages as possible. So whenever we talk about media that includes a bunch of applications that users do really want, but we can't include on a CD-sized medium, we fall back to the DVD, which loses much of the appeal of the Live image. I think the Desktop SIG has already been discussing the need for a larger image due to constantly having to bump out useful applications to stay under the CD size limit. At the same time, the Installation DVD does provide a helpful testing bed for Anaconda. Mainly, I was just interested in the idea of existing SIGs feeling empowered to produce their Live spins for larger media, rather than everyone needing more applications having to fall back to the Installation DVD. I'm not sure what an equally untargeted generic Live spin really achieves, but at the same time, if there are contributors interested in producing one, our spin process certainly permits it. -- Paul W. Frieldshttp://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
Great Idea!! It would be really nice if this could be implemented successfully. Live CD + An internal Repo + A bit of php coding to choose the packages = Live DVD Genius :) On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 1:25 AM, Colin Walters wrote: > > Right, understood. What I'm arguing is that what you get when you > install the "Live DVD" should actually be identical to the comps > group. > > However if it's desired to fill the full 4 gigabytes (i.e. actually be > DVD size), then I suggest what you do is pre-load a lot of stuff into > the yum cache, but not actually install it. A bit of PackageKit work > could expose to the interface "only search cached stuff" perhaps. Or > maybe the UI already knows about http:// versus file://, and if you > just made a repository which pointed at the mounted DVD? > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > -- Aditya Patawari Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD http://blog.adityapatawari.com/ https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania India -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 7:46 PM, Aditya Patawari wrote: > > We thought of this earlier. Being a fedora ambassador when I go to promote > fedora the most common problem I hear is that people are not able to get > everything from repo due to bad internet connection Right, understood. What I'm arguing is that what you get when you install the "Live DVD" should actually be identical to the comps group. However if it's desired to fill the full 4 gigabytes (i.e. actually be DVD size), then I suggest what you do is pre-load a lot of stuff into the yum cache, but not actually install it. A bit of PackageKit work could expose to the interface "only search cached stuff" perhaps. Or maybe the UI already knows about http:// versus file://, and if you just made a repository which pointed at the mounted DVD? -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 1:03 AM, Colin Walters wrote: > > I think the cleanest way to fix this is to have a post-installation > program for the Live CD image which offers to "Complete your > installation?" and does the PackageKit equivalent of yum groupinstall > > We thought of this earlier. Being a fedora ambassador when I go to promote fedora the most common problem I hear is that people are not able to get everything from repo due to bad internet connection or just because they don't know what to install to get a particular job done. The problem with dvd install is that not everyone is familiar that what packages he/she require to do a particular task. Live DVD will be helpful in these situations. There won't be any need to download packages from internet as most common of them will be pre-installed. -- Aditya Patawari Join Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD http://blog.adityapatawari.com/ https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania India -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Le 13/09/2009 20:29, Kevin Kofler a écrit : >> >> The DVD size would allow us to include more stuff, >> like translations (kde-l10n-*, those are fairly huge and there are many >> supported languages), input method support (the current GNOME live CDs >> include that, but we weren't able to fit it on the KDE ones), additional >> applications (there are plenty of nice KDE apps, and we might also >> consider >> including stuff like OO.o), maybe upstream wallpapers (not as the default, >> but as options). We've found the CD size to be very limiting. > > Well, the CD does not include most of the fonts we package. Not enough fonts > is a recurrent user complaint (was moded up +5 insightful several times > again when /. posted its “why users reject FLOSS apps” article). So I'd > expect desktop livecds to address this. I think the cleanest way to fix this is to have a post-installation program for the Live CD image which offers to "Complete your installation?" and does the PackageKit equivalent of yum groupinstall . (This is another reason why the kickstart files should only be subtraction-for-space from a comps group). The Live CD should basically be enough to bootstrap and get a good feel for the system and do basic tasks. This also moves us much closer to having 1 defined set of things in the "installation" instead of two wildly different things which is really broken from a QA/marketing/etc. standpoint. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
Le 13/09/2009 20:29, Kevin Kofler a écrit : The DVD size would allow us to include more stuff, like translations (kde-l10n-*, those are fairly huge and there are many supported languages), input method support (the current GNOME live CDs include that, but we weren't able to fit it on the KDE ones), additional applications (there are plenty of nice KDE apps, and we might also consider including stuff like OO.o), maybe upstream wallpapers (not as the default, but as options). We've found the CD size to be very limiting. Well, the CD does not include most of the fonts we package. Not enough fonts is a recurrent user complaint (was moded up +5 insightful several times again when /. posted its “why users reject FLOSS apps” article). So I'd expect desktop livecds to address this. -- Nicolas Mailhot -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
Thanks Kevin for all this help. I understand that mirroring it will be difficult due to space constraints. I'll take this to fedora infrastructure as soon as we have enough members on SIG. I see that you haven't joined the SIG yet, please do join it soon. Live DVD SIG : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > I can take up the idea of a KDE Live DVD with KDE SIG. (I'm cross-posting > this mail to fedora-kde.) The DVD size would allow us to include more > stuff, > like translations (kde-l10n-*, those are fairly huge and there are many > supported languages), input method support (the current GNOME live CDs > include that, but we weren't able to fit it on the KDE ones), additional > applications (there are plenty of nice KDE apps, and we might also consider > including stuff like OO.o), maybe upstream wallpapers (not as the default, > but as options). We've found the CD size to be very limiting. > > That said, getting the DVDs (also your GNOME one) mirrored might be non- > trivial, especially in the beginning, as there's already (still) the > installer DVD as well as both live CDs for mirrors to carry. > >Kevin Kofler > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > -- Aditya Patawari Birla Institute Of Technology, Mesra http://blog.adityapatawari.com/ https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania India -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
Aditya Patawari wrote: > Well, as per the info provided by Kevin creating more than one live DVD is > recommended. I can take up the idea of a KDE Live DVD with KDE SIG. (I'm cross-posting this mail to fedora-kde.) The DVD size would allow us to include more stuff, like translations (kde-l10n-*, those are fairly huge and there are many supported languages), input method support (the current GNOME live CDs include that, but we weren't able to fit it on the KDE ones), additional applications (there are plenty of nice KDE apps, and we might also consider including stuff like OO.o), maybe upstream wallpapers (not as the default, but as options). We've found the CD size to be very limiting. That said, getting the DVDs (also your GNOME one) mirrored might be non- trivial, especially in the beginning, as there's already (still) the installer DVD as well as both live CDs for mirrors to carry. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
Well, as per the info provided by Kevin creating more than one live DVD is
recommended. Also it makes more sense as the live dvd will copy the files
onto the system. Environment selection is tricky and can result into an
unstable or bug prone release.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 11:32 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>
> Which one? There's more than one live CD… I presume you mean the GNOME
> ("Desktop") one given where you cross-posted this. I think we'll either
> need
> more than one live DVD or the live DVD will have to carry more than one
> desktop environment (but if we choose the latter, we really need to fix
> GDM's usability for desktop environment selection, we have a lot of
> feedback
> from #fedora-kde and the fedora-kde ML that, after installing both, those
> users couldn't find KDE at all in GDM and only got into KDE once they
> switched to KDM, the fact that the desktop selection only shows up after
> you
> selected your user and at a location on the screen very far from the user
> selection is very counterintuitive).
>
>Kevin Kofler
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
--
Aditya Patawari
Birla Institute Of Technology, Mesra
http://blog.adityapatawari.com/
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania
India
--
fedora-devel-list mailing list
fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
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Re: Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
Aditya Patawari wrote:
> which will have all the packages of live cd
Which one? There's more than one live CD… I presume you mean the GNOME
("Desktop") one given where you cross-posted this. I think we'll either need
more than one live DVD or the live DVD will have to carry more than one
desktop environment (but if we choose the latter, we really need to fix
GDM's usability for desktop environment selection, we have a lot of feedback
from #fedora-kde and the fedora-kde ML that, after installing both, those
users couldn't find KDE at all in GDM and only got into KDE once they
switched to KDM, the fact that the desktop selection only shows up after you
selected your user and at a location on the screen very far from the user
selection is very counterintuitive).
Kevin Kofler
--
fedora-devel-list mailing list
fedora-devel-list@redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Introduction to a new SIG for creation of Live DVD
I was just reading the mails about the Fedora print magazine. There Paul Frields said that "In the longer term we really do want to move away from the Install DVD to a Live DVD that has more relevant applications and content". We didn't had any SIG for creating Live DVD and Live DVD spin. So I have started the same. The main motive of the SIG will be to roll out one live DVD per fedora release which will have all the packages of live cd and other packages as suggested by the community. For this to be a success, community support is very much required. Interested contributors please join the SIG at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveDVD . Any kind of suggestions or pointers are most welcome. -- Aditya Patawari Birla Institute Of Technology, Mesra http://blog.adityapatawari.com/ https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania India -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
