Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On 30/06/09 01:39, Bill Nottingham wrote: That's a really crappy place for that message, though. What's the user supposed to do there... reboot and then go download another 700MB - 4GB? Yes it's a crappy place. I knew that when I suggested it. I just couldn't think of a Javascript hack which would cough up the CPU features even when running under a 32b OS like Windows Xp. Suggestions welcomed. -- Glen Turner http://www.gdt.id.au/~gdt/ -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:16 PM, Glen Turnerg...@gdt.id.au wrote: On 30/06/09 01:39, Bill Nottingham wrote: That's a really crappy place for that message, though. What's the user supposed to do there... reboot and then go download another 700MB - 4GB? Yes it's a crappy place. I knew that when I suggested it. I just couldn't think of a Javascript hack which would cough up the CPU features even when running under a 32b OS like Windows Xp. Suggestions welcomed. Ah, on OS like Windows, maybe ActiveX helps. I don't have such a beast at the minute to test, but maybe this[1] works. [1] http://www.devarticles.com/c/a/JavaScript/How-to-Use-JavaScript-for-Hardware-Knowledge/1/ -- Iain. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Glen Turner (g...@gdt.id.au) said: That's a really crappy place for that message, though. What's the user supposed to do there... reboot and then go download another 700MB - 4GB? Yes it's a crappy place. I knew that when I suggested it. I just couldn't think of a Javascript hack which would cough up the CPU features even when running under a 32b OS like Windows Xp. Suggestions welcomed. Dual-arch media. (Which is a pain, and will run into space issues sooner or later.) Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Bill Nottinghamnott...@redhat.com wrote: Glen Turner (g...@gdt.id.au) said: That's a really crappy place for that message, though. What's the user supposed to do there... reboot and then go download another 700MB - 4GB? Yes it's a crappy place. I knew that when I suggested it. I just couldn't think of a Javascript hack which would cough up the CPU features even when running under a 32b OS like Windows Xp. Suggestions welcomed. Dual-arch media. (Which is a pain, and will run into space issues sooner or later.) I don't see this as an issue for live media (if it is possible to do here). We have 700MB x 2 = 1400MB out of 4GB which we can ship on a DVD. We can provide an extra link download CD if someone really still has no dvd burner / drive in 2009. This also would allow us to add software like openoffice to the live media (which is ommited for space reasons because we insist on the pointless cd limit). -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On 01/07/09 00:22, inode0 wrote: snip So if the community agreed to these two changes, which seem reasonable to me, then what? Well, I think at this point we hit the real wall in this debate, but I really don't think we can avoid the subsequent requests for more equal treatment by refusing to call GNOME GNOME. John +1 Frank -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Bill Nottingham wrote: 1) You argue that the name 'Desktop' makes people think that it contains *all possible desktops*. I'm arguing that people will either think that or (more likely) that GNOME is the only possible desktop (a misconception which the featuring the GNOME desktop small print wouldn't fix either). Now technically they'd in both cases think that it contains all possible desktops (if they think there's just one, it would be all possible), but the distinction is important because: Given that to assume that you'd already have to know of other desktops, then you would already know what the 'KDE fans...' text means, or know what the long list of things on the torrent pages are. ... this is not true in the second case. 2) I feel that changing the name on get-fedora doesn't give any benefits; it adds verbiage that's *already there* in the description. Having in the title would be clearer (see also the above) and make sure the information appears everywhere, not just on that page. 3) On get-fedora-all... you're coming from a page (#2) that already describes it as being GNOME. Except if you go (e.g. from some link on some other site) directly to get-fedora-all because the fancy page hides 5 of the 7 primary options (it would be 7 of 9 if we started shipping PPC Live CDs, which is now technically possible as of F11). 3) If you're talking about torrent.fp.o, the descriptions on that are so bad that there are a whole host of things that need fixed before one filename. Still, having GNOME in the name would at least make it automatically show up there and everywhere else. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Bill Nottingham wrote: 1) You argue that the name 'Desktop' makes people think that it contains *all possible desktops*. I'm arguing that people will either think that or (more likely) that GNOME is the only possible desktop (a misconception which the featuring the GNOME desktop small print wouldn't fix either). Now technically they'd in both cases think that it contains all possible desktops (if they think there's just one, it would be all possible), but the distinction is important because: Given that to assume that you'd already have to know of other desktops, then you would already know what the 'KDE fans...' text means, or know what the long list of things on the torrent pages are. ... this is not true in the second case. 2) I feel that changing the name on get-fedora doesn't give any benefits; it adds verbiage that's *already there* in the description. Having in the title would be clearer (see also the above) and make sure the information appears everywhere, not just on that page. 3) On get-fedora-all... you're coming from a page (#2) that already describes it as being GNOME. Except if you go (e.g. from some link on some other site) directly to get-fedora-all because the fancy page hides 5 of the 7 primary options (it would be 7 of 9 if we started shipping PPC Live CDs, which is now technically possible as of F11). 3) If you're talking about torrent.fp.o, the descriptions on that are so bad that there are a whole host of things that need fixed before one filename. Still, having GNOME in the name would at least make it automatically show up there and everywhere else. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
2009/6/30 Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at: Seth Vidal wrote: On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, R P Herrold wrote: umm -- trying to boot and install the x86_86 image on a i686 unit returns basically the same under Anaconda's kernel which is why i686 isos are the ones users get by default. ... which is bad. Users should get the x86_64 version by default if they don't know what they have, it's the one which should be tried first, if it doesn't work, they can always get the legacy version. Sorry, but i have to disagree with that. Because *that* would be really bad. Give the user at least the arch that works no matter how old his box is (ok, if it's too old he is screwed anyways). Get him download 700MB again for the LiveCD and he will walk away. Back to windows with a bad experience (linux not working at all) or to another distro. And i speak of the default for users who cant/want find out what arch they need (x86). *Some* people dont want to read too much and want just download something to try it. For all the other users we would have choices as shown in the other thread with some very basic ASCII mockup. -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Kevin Kofler (kevin.kof...@chello.at) said: Chris Adams wrote: ISTR FESCo voted that down. They voted it down based on false assumptions, such as the one from Bill Nottingham (the one that it doesn't make any actual difference, You know, I realize we may not agree. But I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. If you'll see the log: 17:33:02 notting The current naming misleads users into either thinking GNOME is the only available desktop environment in Fedora or thinking the image also provides the other options. - i don't really think either of these are accurate 17:33:26 notting skvidal: the download page already says 'featuring the gnome desktop' (The quoted part is your rationale from the ticket). My only other comments on the subject were questioning why you waited until you joined FESCo to propose this, when it didn't require that at all, and a comment that the discussion was going in circles, which it was. But hey, thanks for the unfounded assertion that everyone who voted against it was operating under false assumptions, and they could not possibly have any rational reasons for disagreeing with you. Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Tue, 30 Jun 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote: Chris Adams wrote: ISTR FESCo voted that down. They voted it down based on false assumptions, such as the one from Bill Nottingham (the one that it doesn't make any actual difference, which was also Seth Vidal's main argument) I just rectified in the post you're replying to. I'll do what I can to get it up for a revote based on the feedback from this thread. It really wasn't my main argument. My main argument was that we need a default no matter what and that adding 'GNOME' to the label doesn't change anything and adds to the confusion of new users. It's the same argument that notting and ricky and others gave. Asserting that the only reason your proposal was rejected is b/c everyone else misunderstood is just outrageous. -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Bill Nottingham wrote: 17:33:02 notting The current naming misleads users into either thinking GNOME is the only available desktop environment in Fedora or thinking the image also provides the other options. - i don't really think either of these are accurate Well, I don't see how that's not the case. OK, the description on the download page says GNOME in small print, as you point out: 17:33:26 notting skvidal: the download page already says 'featuring the gnome desktop' but other references to the Desktop Edition or Desktop Live don't, e.g. the one on get-fedora-all, documentation, discussions etc. There's plenty of potential for misleading users. My only other comments on the subject were questioning why you waited until you joined FESCo to propose this, when it didn't require that at all Jef Spaleta nagged me about putting it before FESCo when the elections were already underway. I decided to wait until after the election because it was not a highly pressing matter and it was just a matter of a few days. The thing is, any moment is as good as any other to file a proposal to FESCo, I don't see why I *shouldn't* have filed it now. Surely I can't go back in time and file it before the election (or even months before, when nobody even told me to file it with FESCo). ;-) I think saying it has been like that for ages, you should have filed it earlier is a pretty weak argument against my proposal. Just because the status quo has existed for a long time doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. and a comment that the discussion was going in circles, which it was. It was because you (plural) didn't want to listen to my arguments, you were just eager to shoot my proposal down no matter what. But hey, thanks for the unfounded assertion that everyone who voted against it was operating under false assumptions, and they could not possibly have any rational reasons for disagreeing with you. The arguments you (plural) have brought have been very weak. If there are such rational reasons, I'd like to read them! Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Seth Vidal wrote: It really wasn't my main argument. My main argument was that we need a default no matter what and that adding 'GNOME' to the label doesn't change anything If it doesn't change anything, why can't we add it? That argument doesn't make sense. and adds to the confusion of new users. How so? I see quite the opposite, i.e. it removes confusion! And incidentally, that's also what it'd change (so it changes something). How is it not confusing to users to have a spin called just Desktop? If KDE Desktop has KDE, what does Desktop contain? Something other than KDE, most likely, but that's all the name says. And taken by itself, Desktop could be anything: KDE, GNOME, even Sugar. Or all on the same spin. Calling it GNOME Desktop makes it clear it's GNOME and does not remove any information (it just adds a word)! And even if you know the Desktop spin contains GNOME, you may still think that having the GNOME spin called just Desktop implies it's the only desktop. That's actually a pretty rational assumption, as normally when there's more than one asdf, you don't just say asdf Edition, but Foo asdf Edition to distinguish it from Bar asdf Edition. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 5:12 PM, Kevin Koflerkevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: Seth Vidal wrote: It really wasn't my main argument. My main argument was that we need a default no matter what and that adding 'GNOME' to the label doesn't change anything If it doesn't change anything, why can't we add it? That argument doesn't make sense. and adds to the confusion of new users. How so? I see quite the opposite, i.e. it removes confusion! And incidentally, that's also what it'd change (so it changes something). Either way it is named can and probably will confuse some users. I don't think this is an important point since people will be confused either way. How is it not confusing to users to have a spin called just Desktop? It doesn't confuse the people who would be confused by adding GNOME to it when they don't know what GNOME is. Honestly, all arguments about this or that confusing or misleading users are not compelling. I happen to support the following changes. (1) I prefer the name of the Fedora-11-i686-Live.iso image to be Fedora-11-i686-Live-GNOME.iso to present consistent and accurate information about the content of the images in a directory listing. (2) On the wiki I prefer the Fedora 11 Desktop Edition be called the Fedora 11 GNOME Desktop Edition because that again makes for a consistent presentation and because that is what it is. Listening to a recent RadioTux broadcast I heard it called the GNOME Live Spin by a prominent community member. Both of these changes I would also support because I think it is nuts to deepen a rift in the community over them. If we continue to only have the GNOME Live image on the get-fedora page this won't confuse the new users looking for the desktop spin because it will be the only one they see and they will just take it. So if the community agreed to these two changes, which seem reasonable to me, then what? Well, I think at this point we hit the real wall in this debate, but I really don't think we can avoid the subsequent requests for more equal treatment by refusing to call GNOME GNOME. John -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Kevin Kofler (kevin.kof...@chello.at) said: The thing is, any moment is as good as any other to file a proposal to FESCo, I don't see why I *shouldn't* have filed it now. I wasn't asking as a means of making an argument against it. I'm asking because this is something that could have been raised to FESCo at any time in the past by you (or others), regardless of your status on FESCo. The fact that you filed it immediately after joining FESCo, combined with your own statement of 'I've been proposing this on the mailing list for ages' and 'My platform was clear', makes the implication that it was *intentional* to wait until now, and in essence use a FESCo position as the colloquial bully pulpit. Which I find sort of sad. But hey, thanks for the unfounded assertion that everyone who voted against it was operating under false assumptions, and they could not possibly have any rational reasons for disagreeing with you. The arguments you (plural) have brought have been very weak. If there are such rational reasons, I'd like to read them! 1) You argue that the name 'Desktop' makes people think that it contains *all possible desktops*. I find that to be an extremely unlikely reading of the name. Given that to assume that you'd already have to know of other desktops, then you would already know what the 'KDE fans...' text means, or know what the long list of things on the torrent pages are. 2) I feel that changing the name on get-fedora doesn't give any benefits; it adds verbiage that's *already there* in the description. 3) On get-fedora-all... you're coming from a page (#2) that already describes it as being GNOME. 3) If you're talking about torrent.fp.o, the descriptions on that are so bad that there are a whole host of things that need fixed before one filename. Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Hi Kevin, It was because you (plural) didn't want to listen to my arguments, you were just eager to shoot my proposal down no matter what. I think this is your 60th post to this thread, in the four days that it's been going. I don't have anything to say about the thread itself, but I'd encourage you to take a break from the thread and consider what else you think it's important to add to it. This is just advice, naturally; I'm interested in ways that we can use this list more constructively. - Chris. -- Chris Ball c...@laptop.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Matthew Garrett wrote: But when we talk about Fedora features, we're not talking about packaging updates. But all this focus on Fedora features is what I'm objecting to in the first place. Users care about what features are there, not about who wrote them. Yet I don't see us filling in feature pages for every new feature in upstream KDE (and it probably wouldn't be welcome according to the feature process, it focuses on stuff developed by Fedora contributors). When we talk about what differentiates Fedora from other distributions, it's rarely the quality of the packaging that's the focus. I think it's quite the opposite. We all package the same software. The packaging is what differentiates us from the others. People choose between distributions based on the features that they provide. Those features tend to be almost the same. Fast-moving distributions like Fedora will usually have them first, even if we weren't the ones implementing them. But otherwise, there's not much difference! If the primary focus of Fedora is to produce a compelling operating system, then upstream features and development are a significant part of making that argument to potential users. But what if upstream is doing well already and does not need our help? I'm sure, yes. It makes several mistakes that I've been arguing against for years (presenting power management in terms of profiles, making it easy for users to change cpu frequency governer mode without making it clear that almost anything they change there will consume more power and will probably compromise performance, implying that performance and pwoersaving are a tradeoff) KDE focuses on configurability. You won't get a KDE developer to agree to not give the user any options. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Matthias Clasen wrote: Now I guess it would be my turn to feel insulted, and stamp my foot, because I do the majority of the stable Gnome updates. And yes, they do exist. At the rate of one update per month to every GNOME package? Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Rahul Sundaram wrote: nm-applet doesn't work the KDE Wallet for example. This is exactly what I mean by lack of integration. That's why we're switching to the plasmoid. :-) And how is this relevant to the user? The user cares about what features they're getting, not who has written the code for them. It is relevant from the Fedora perspective. The user does not care, so why present things to the user as if they should? KDE does lack integration with them. That word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. I understand perfectly well what it means. It's just that you aren't willing to accept that they are integration gaps. You're calling things integration which are just features, e.g. fingerprint reading. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Rahul Sundaram wrote: The constructiveness if for KDE SIG and individuals to accept that his claim of perfect integration is silly when there are many gaps to address. Those gaps are not integration issues. They're just features which GNOME happens to have. I have no problems with that except for the concern that users who are completely new to Linux don't understand jargon like GNOME or KDE. It means nothing and I think download page isn't going to the right place to do it. I would like to see a good proposal, perhaps a mockup showing us how it can be done instead of voting in FESCo. Just link to an info page for each. Why single out desktop environments? Is the justifications for all of our defaults documented anywhere? Shouldn't it be? Default apps are basically implied by the desktop environment (we ship apps designed for the respective spin's desktop environment). I think, the amount of resources within Fedora directed at one desktop environment is a big factor and it does make a significant difference in the end user experience when new technologies developed within Fedora. And I think the amount of resources directed towards KDE is sufficient (though as I wrote repeatedly, more help would be perfectly welcome). And, the answers to these questions will only get more important over time, it seems, as more and more viable alternatives arise (within Fedora), like sugar, XFCE, LXDE, etc... .. and this makes it even more important to make the right decision. Would it be right to provide a long list of desktop environments and live cd's associated within the download page or upfront within the installer? Yes. How do you even describe the differences appropriately? Just link to info pages. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Kevin Koflerkevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: This x86_64 issue is also a nasty side effect of your design policy: why are we defaulting to reduced performance for the vast majority of new hardware (basically only netbooks and a handful pretty specialized devices use 32-bit-only CPUs these days!) just in the name of avoiding a choice and potential frustration of clueless users who don't know they need the 32-bit version? That's yet another bad tradeoff in the name of usability. I know several people who have accidentally downloaded the 32-bit version when they actually wanted x86_64 because the 64-bit version is hidden the way it is. It's hard to find even for clueful users! Definitely. You know who I think really gets it right? http://software.opensuse.org/ It completely and absolutely leaves Fedora download page for dead. As for DE's -- I think we can all agree XFCE/GNOME/KDE are all pretty solid. So the major selling point of each, is simply what they look like. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Screenshot_Tour So why not have something like Fedora_11_(KDE|GNOME|XFCE)_Screenshot_Tour and links to them? And a one line selling each: GNOME aims for simplicity and elegance KDE aims for control and configurability XFCE aims to be fast and light. (And default to GNOME to represent Fedora's position) -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
2009/6/29 Eric Springer erik...@gmail.com: On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Kevin Koflerkevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: This x86_64 issue is also a nasty side effect of your design policy: why are we defaulting to reduced performance for the vast majority of new hardware (basically only netbooks and a handful pretty specialized devices use 32-bit-only CPUs these days!) just in the name of avoiding a choice and potential frustration of clueless users who don't know they need the 32-bit version? That's yet another bad tradeoff in the name of usability. I know several people who have accidentally downloaded the 32-bit version when they actually wanted x86_64 because the 64-bit version is hidden the way it is. It's hard to find even for clueful users! Definitely. You know who I think really gets it right? http://software.opensuse.org/ It completely and absolutely leaves Fedora download page for dead. As for DE's -- I think we can all agree XFCE/GNOME/KDE are all pretty solid. So the major selling point of each, is simply what they look like. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Screenshot_Tour So why not have something like Fedora_11_(KDE|GNOME|XFCE)_Screenshot_Tour and links to them? And a one line selling each: GNOME aims for simplicity and elegance KDE aims for control and configurability XFCE aims to be fast and light. (And default to GNOME to represent Fedora's position) Yes Sir! You can link even to more information or use ajax (to prevent too much extra sites or popups). Thanks! -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On 06/29/2009 12:54 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: The user does not care, so why present things to the user as if they should? I said nothing about users. You should as a Fedora developer care about integration with leading edge features that makes Fedora stand out. You're calling things integration which are just features, e.g. fingerprint reading. I guess that is a just a different perspective. My point of view is that, finger print functionality already exists for quite sometime. What is new is the integration with desktop environment and display manager. I find it amusing that you won't even agree that shipping nm-applet in KDE results is a gap in integration. This was a result of the KDE 3 - KDE 4 migration. Let's just agree to disagree. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
2009/6/29 Michal Hlavinka mhlav...@redhat.com: On Friday 26 June 2009 20:50:58 Jon Stanley wrote: ... 18:42:08 Kevin_Kofler Sweeping them under the carpet is bad. 18:42:16 Kevin_Kofler I also hate how x86_64 is being hidden. 18:42:21 nirik presenting them all on the top page is also fail. 18:42:22 jds2001 and I defer to her on design decisions, since I couldn't design my way out of a paper bag :) 18:42:29 j-rod hey, I was just going to mention x86_64 18:42:43 nirik perhaps we could come up with a better way somehow. I'm sure they are open to creative ideas. 18:43:08 Kevin_Kofler jds2001: The problem is, if you read her credentials (GNOME Women membership etc.), she's very biased. 18:43:13 nirik also, x86_64/i686 dual arch disks would be lovely. 18:43:33 j-rod so it should be Get Fedora 11 GNOME Desktop Edition for Intel Pentium, Pentium II, Pentium III, early Pentium IV, Core Duo, AMD Athlon XP, Athlon MP, Via C3... Now! 18:43:33 * thomasj will make a main page and send it to the website people, so they can decide if it's better or not. 18:43:56 thomasj eeww 18:44:07 j-rod (yes, I left some off, it got tiring typing that many ancient crappy processors) 18:44:36 Kevin_Kofler I think i686 should be deprecated and clearly advertised as only for old computers or netbooks, not catered for with dual-arch disks. 18:44:48 j-rod ha. powerpc is more obviously displayed than x86_64 is ... Is there any info message telling user something like: You are installing 32bit system on 64bit hardware. Consider using 64bit system for better performance? AFAIK not in Fedora, if I remember me correctly, the SuSE installer shows up such a message if you try to boot a X86 disk on a amd64 capable system. -- Regards, Niels Michal -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 09:22:44AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Matthias Clasen wrote: Now I guess it would be my turn to feel insulted, and stamp my foot, because I do the majority of the stable Gnome updates. And yes, they do exist. At the rate of one update per month to every GNOME package? Before you continute to show this as an example of something good, think about it for a second. It is not obvious to me without seeing comparison data as to why it's such a good thing to have numerous stable updates. And no, I don't want you to go get comparison data. There are many other things that the KDE SIG does extremely well. While this may or may not be one of them, I do agree with whoever said that this is the wrong metric to be using. josh -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: That said, it's possible to improve over their design, in particular by adding links to info pages about the desktops and 32 vs. 64 bit right next to the respective choice. But removing choice is not an improvement. What if the user was only given one option at a time? Sort of like an expert system --download.html-- Which Arch? [big shiny box for each arch, with description and links] --download-86_64.html-- Live CD or DVD [big shiny box for each with description, advantages, uses, links] etc. It's a little slower, but definitely more informative, which is important if we want people to get the right install media. And no one can claim we're just copying opensuse. Anyone object? :P -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Josh Boyer wrote: It is not obvious to me without seeing comparison data as to why it's such a good thing to have numerous stable updates. It's a good thing because those updates fix bugs, update translations and in some cases add features. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Kevin Koflerkevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: Josh Boyer wrote: It is not obvious to me without seeing comparison data as to why it's such a good thing to have numerous stable updates. It's a good thing because those updates fix bugs, update translations and in some cases add features. and introduce new bugs ;) -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Rahul Sundaram wrote: I find it amusing that you won't even agree that shipping nm-applet in KDE results is a gap in integration. This was a result of the KDE 3 - KDE 4 migration. It was actually a result of the NM 0.6 - 0.7 migration. The KDE 3 - KDE 4 migration just made it worse by splitting the efforts on KNetworkManager into 2 separate codebases. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Bastien Nocera wrote: I'm sure that a KDE hacker with access to a supported fingerprint reader could implement the enrollment facility within an afternoon. There's already an implementation: http://blog.djaara.net/wordpress/2009/ That's a student from Brno, ltinkl and jreznik know him personally, so I'm sure they'll package it (or get the author to package it) as soon as they feel it's ready. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Saturday, June 27 2009, Kevin Kofler said: * fixing comps so task-oriented groups like SoundVideo aren't biased towards GNOME apps (this most likely requires extending the comps format or having separate comps-kde and comps-gnome - I think extending the format to handle conditionals based on the desktop selected via radiobutton would be the more maintainable solution in the long run): where I'd like to get to is that if I select SoundVideo after having selected GNOME as the desktop, I get Totem and Rhythmbox by default and kdemultimedia, Amarok and Kaffeine as optional checkboxes, but if I select SoundVideo after having selected KDE as the desktop, I get kdemultimedia, Amarok and Kaffeine by default and Totem and Rhythmbox as optional checkboxes, fwiw, concrete discussions on how to actually improve comps so that it scales to the order of magnitude more packages + many many many more use cases we have are welcome. We had a long discussion about it at the FUDCon in January, but no one was really happy with the idea we came up with (as it introduced new problems and didn't solve all the existing ones) and so we continue to live with where we are. Jeremy -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On 06/29/2009 07:20 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: The biggest issue is lack of communication from the only right Desktop - we can't catch changes if these changes are communicated to community too late. Lot of new free desktop techs come from Fedora and we know it and we're working really hard with upstream to solve it and catch current state. But we're unfortunately out of sync with KDE upstream releases and so it's harder sometimes. It helps to drop the foo vs bar fight, finger pointing and get on the irc channel or in mailing lists if necessary and ask questions. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 15:15 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Bastien Nocera wrote: I'm sure that a KDE hacker with access to a supported fingerprint reader could implement the enrollment facility within an afternoon. There's already an implementation: http://blog.djaara.net/wordpress/2009/ That's a student from Brno, ltinkl and jreznik know him personally, so I'm sure they'll package it (or get the author to package it) as soon as they feel it's ready. Nice, though he didn't contact either myself, or the upstream fprintd list about it, which is why I didn't know about it. Neat. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Niels Haase (a...@fedoraproject.org) said: Magical can be: Shows up a list at the installer where you can chose from Gnome or KDE (both on the same line with no default activation) and on the next line an alternative environment, here you have thinks like E17, XFCE, LXDE ... But you only the them, if you click on alternative. ... of all the suggestions, this seems the worst. At least with spins you don't have to do specific hacks in the installer for each new desktop, you don't have to know at compose time the set of spins that you may want to target, etc. Ideally, the DVD Fedora spin should *die*. Having no target makes it pretty pointless. Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Monday 29 June 2009 17:12:42 Bastien Nocera wrote: On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 15:15 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Bastien Nocera wrote: I'm sure that a KDE hacker with access to a supported fingerprint reader could implement the enrollment facility within an afternoon. There's already an implementation: http://blog.djaara.net/wordpress/2009/ That's a student from Brno, ltinkl and jreznik know him personally, so I'm sure they'll package it (or get the author to package it) as soon as they feel it's ready. Nice, though he didn't contact either myself, or the upstream fprintd list about it, which is why I didn't know about it. I asked him to be more in touch with upstream - both KDM and fprint. From what I know he asked for some advise and proposals on mailing list but he wasn't specific about why he need it. But we're again in lack of communication (now from his side)... :( Neat. -- Jaroslav Řezník jrez...@redhat.com Associate Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno Office: +420 532 294 275 Mobile: +420 731 455 332 Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/ -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Kevin Kofler (kevin.kof...@chello.at) said: It's not a default if you're providing a choice. I see no reason why we can't provide a choice of 2 desktops. Because giving people a choice when they can't possibly make a good informed decision is horrible UI. If you've got someone new to Fedora, and they go to the page, asking them to choose between Mumble and Frotz (and Moof, and Wobble), with no other data (as exists right now on get-fedora, or even on the OpenSUSE page), there's no way they can make a useful decision, and it's only going to make their experience worse. Go back to people who have asked for a button in the install to enable /etc/init.d/network vs. NetworkManager, or (heaven forbid) asking for a switch between NM and conman; neither of these are sane UI decisions to make or choices to ask the user. So, I look at the download page now, and I see the default. (which we're going to have no matter what - if you think we should give the user something random, well) It says 'Desktop Edition ... *featuring the GNOME desktop*'. I don't see that as misleading, so, I find your proposal full of unnecessary drama. If you want to change the download page in a way that makes the KDE image more prominent while still remaining useful and informative, or want to change something in comps that makes it more same from a composition install standpoint, go ahead, please. But that's *not the proposal you made*. In fact, the proposal you made reads as I want to promote KDE! We start by ... un-promoting GNOME! When you follow that up in this thread with statements about how the KDE sig shouldn't need to do anything else, and the docs and website people should start providing you content/catering to you (as you yourself suggested, in essence it's core Fedora which needs to change), all that does is make you sound petulant. Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Kevin Kofler (kevin.kof...@chello.at) said: The word representative contains represent. You're supposed to represent the opinions of the people who elected you, not just your own. ... Kevin Kofler (kevin.kof...@chello.at) said: I'm not going to vote against my electoral promises nor against KDE SIG's interests. So, if someone from the XFCE Sig voted for you, you're not going to represent any of their opinions which are against your KDE-centric views? Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Niels Haase (a...@fedoraproject.org) said: Is there any info message telling user something like: You are installing 32bit system on 64bit hardware. Consider using 64bit system for better performance? AFAIK not in Fedora, if I remember me correctly, the SuSE installer shows up such a message if you try to boot a X86 disk on a amd64 capable system. That's a really crappy place for that message, though. What's the user supposed to do there... reboot and then go download another 700MB - 4GB? Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, Bill Nottingham wrote: That's a really crappy place for that message, though. What's the user supposed to do there... reboot and then go download another 700MB - 4GB? umm -- trying to boot and install the x86_86 image on a i686 unit returns basically the same under Anaconda's kernel -- Russ herrold -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, Orcan Ogetbil wrote: On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: Kevin Kofler said: It's not a default if you're providing a choice. I see no reason why we can't provide a choice of 2 desktops. Because giving people a choice when they can't possibly make a good informed decision is horrible UI. I am confused. How does this comply with the it doesn't really matter argument which was the primary reasoning that was presented to reject this proposal? no, I said calling it 'gnome' or 'desktop' doesn't really matter. We need a simple default not a choose-your-own-adventure book for downloading images. That's all I ever said. -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
2009/6/29 Seth Vidal skvi...@fedoraproject.org: On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, R P Herrold wrote: On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, Bill Nottingham wrote: That's a really crappy place for that message, though. What's the user supposed to do there... reboot and then go download another 700MB - 4GB? umm -- trying to boot and install the x86_86 image on a i686 unit returns basically the same under Anaconda's kernel which is why i686 isos are the ones users get by default. And that should stay as default. Users who know that they want x86_64 could choose it. Even new users could do it with enough information how to find out if you want to learn something. Thank you too. -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 12:31:59PM -0500, Matthew Woehlke wrote: I love how the other side keeps ignoring that we have a chicken-and-egg situation here. We have two problems: 1. Fedora has trouble attracting KDE developers. 2. Fedora presents Gnome as better. Okay, it's been argued into the ground that #2 is justified by #1. The problem is, #1 is *also* justified by #2. Neither of the justifications is going to disappear until the opposing problem disappears. Refusing to do anything is just going to maintain the status-quo (vicious cycle, and all that). That's certainly an argument, though it's a harder one to make - it's not easy to show that changing #1 will result in #2 changing. However, it is easy to argue that treating KDE as equivalent to Gnome without having equivalent developer resources causes some level of cost for our users. Are the long term benefits worth it? Perhaps, but that's hard to quantify. Maybe we'd just end up reducing interest in Fedora as a whole and everyone would suffer. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Matthew Garrett wrote: That's certainly an argument, though it's a harder one to make - it's not easy to show that changing #1 will result in #2 changing. However, it is easy to argue that treating KDE as equivalent to Gnome without having equivalent developer resources causes some level of cost for our users. Are the long term benefits worth it? Perhaps, but that's hard to quantify. Maybe we'd just end up reducing interest in Fedora as a whole and everyone would suffer. Judging from the quantity of happy users of Fedora+KDE we have, I don't think we have any actual problems making our users happy despite our somewhat limited (but growing over time) manpower. (We was Fedora KDE SIG in that sentence.) This we (Fedora) have to protect our users from that understaffed, poorly supported desktop argument just makes no sense when you look at the facts. KDE is NOT poorly supported in Fedora. Our manpower is limited (and yes, the way we present KDE is one of the reasons for that!), but not insufficient. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Bill Nottingham wrote: If you've got someone new to Fedora, and they go to the page, asking them to choose between Mumble and Frotz (and Moof, and Wobble), with no other data (as exists right now on get-fedora, or even on the OpenSUSE page), there's no way they can make a useful decision, and it's only going to make their experience worse. If they have never heard of GNOME and KDE before, they should look it up. We can make that easy for them, just link to an informational page for each! The right solution is to allow users to make an informed choice, not to promote ignorance and laziness by patronizing our users. So, I look at the download page now, and I see the default. (which we're going to have no matter what - if you think we should give the user something random, well) It says 'Desktop Edition ... *featuring the GNOME desktop*'. I don't see that as misleading, so, I find your proposal full of unnecessary drama. But why can't it say GNOME Desktop Edition? The featuring the GNOME desktop part isn't even in the title, only in the description. It's missing entirely on get-fedora-all, there's only a GNOME foot logo hinting at it there. And in many places (documentation, ML discussions etc.) the spins get referred to only by their title, so it makes a difference whether that information is part of the title or just of some description which happens to be on the download page. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Bill Nottingham wrote: So, if someone from the XFCE Sig voted for you, you're not going to represent any of their opinions which are against your KDE-centric views? How am I to know that they voted for me? It makes sense to take a mailing list consensus into account, but not a random single voter's opinion (which will not match the opinions of the other voters anyway, also considering that I also voted for myself). Your counterexample is badly chosen. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Seth Vidal wrote: On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, R P Herrold wrote: umm -- trying to boot and install the x86_86 image on a i686 unit returns basically the same under Anaconda's kernel which is why i686 isos are the ones users get by default. ... which is bad. Users should get the x86_64 version by default if they don't know what they have, it's the one which should be tried first, if it doesn't work, they can always get the legacy version. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at said: But why can't it say GNOME Desktop Edition? ISTR FESCo voted that down. How about moving on to something more productive? -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Bill Nottingham wrote: That's a really crappy place for that message, though. What's the user supposed to do there... reboot and then go download another 700MB - 4GB? Sure, why not? If they haven't figured out what CPU they have by then (and we should make it easy for them by providing an information page listing common 32-bit and 64-bit CPUs linked on the download page), they learn their lesson. Think before you download a huge ISO! Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at said: Sure, why not? If they haven't figured out what CPU they have by then (and we should make it easy for them by providing an information page listing common 32-bit and 64-bit CPUs linked on the download page), they learn their lesson. Think before you download a huge ISO! A lot of users think they have a Dell CPU. The result of giving them one that doesn't work will be try something else before you download Fedora. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
A lot of users think they have a Dell CPU. The result of giving them one that doesn't work will be try something else before you download Fedora. I completely agree, I told my father on the phone just today to open his web browser as I was helping him deal with some wireless issues and he had no clue what a web browser was. Now, he's in his late 40's but he's still what I would consider the average user in a lot of ways. -Adam -- http://maxamillion.googlepages.com - () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
2009/6/27 Jon Stanley jonstan...@gmail.com: On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Adam Millermaxamill...@gmail.com wrote: If it is official, I think it should at least get placed on the same web page as the gnome/default one like it used to. +1 We're well aware that the current download page is deficient. The design team is actively working to correct that - it's very newbie oriented at this point, and harder if you know what you want. I might understand it wrong. But from my point of view. It's not newbie oriented at all. If it would be newbie oriented it would offer information and give options to choose, included with some basic screenshots of what the user gets after installation (GNOME and KDE at least, if XFCE is a official Spin as well, then XFCE also). Nobody cares about the default Desktop in Fedora. If i come from another distribution, i already know what i want. But it matters for newbies. Why not give them the freedom and the right to choose what they want on the same Page, with enough information and screenshots linked. Oh and by the way, even the information already given is just poor. How would a newbie decide of the arch he should use? Provide information how he can find out on the same page, nicely linked. Link information or use technics like ajax to provide information. You will get a lot more users HAPPY with what they get. Sometime at the FESCO meeting i thought really the GNOME Fans are afraid of losing their default status over time. But thats just IMO. Sorry, just my 2 cents. -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
2009/6/28 Rahul Sundaram sunda...@fedoraproject.org: On 06/28/2009 12:40 PM, Thomas Janssen wrote: I might understand it wrong. But from my point of view. It's not newbie oriented at all. If it would be newbie oriented it would offer information and give options to choose, included with some basic screenshots of what the user gets after installation (GNOME and KDE at least, if XFCE is a official Spin as well, then XFCE also). None of this is going to change with a FESCo vote. What it requires is someone interested in working with the websites team. Where was i speaking of a FESCO Vote? No, what it really requires is the interest to do the things right. To think before you do. To really care about your old and new users. There is already a website team. But before i will join them or work with them together, i read a lot and try to find out what will happen. And i doubt it was the website team who made the decision how ugly (sorry just IMO) and poor it looks like. And what happens is best described in that long thread. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/ShowUs Involve the design team as well. Instead of pointlessly arguing in FESCo Pointlessly arguing in FESCo.. That pointlessly arguing brought up a lot. Still not enough, but a lot. So i have to do the work. Not a problem at all. I already made some pages. But i'm sure (more than that) that the guys who does the job actually can do it not just as well, but even better. So my question is, why is it then as it is? And why would my work change anything? I think right now, there needs some changes in some minds before. just do the work involved instead. I really like to contribute but it's still my decision. I'm one of the 2nd. class citizens. Good design and a better website will not come out of a committee vote. Sure? -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On 06/28/2009 01:43 PM, Thomas Janssen wrote: There is already a website team. But before i will join them or work with them together, i read a lot and try to find out what will happen. And i doubt it was the website team who made the decision how ugly (sorry just IMO) and poor it looks like. You have any reasons to doubt it? It is all recorded in the public website list archives. Go ahead and read it. Good design and a better website will not come out of a committee vote. Sure? Yep. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
2009/6/28 drago01 drag...@gmail.com: On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 11:27 PM, Niels Haasea...@fedoraproject.org wrote: 2009/6/27 Kevin Fenzi ke...@scrye.com: I never know where to reply to these sort of threads... but I guess I will pick here. ;) On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 19:44:48 -0500 inode0 ino...@gmail.com wrote: ...snip... When I look at a directory listing and see Fedora-11-x86_64-Live.iso Fedora-11-x86_64-Live-KDE.iso it is pretty clear to KDE users which image they want. How about we give the poor Gnome users the same courtesy and indicate which image includes what they are looking for? Why should KDE be treated better? Because lots of people who go to download Fedora have no idea or desire to know what Gnome or KDE means. Let me pass along (again) my reasoning on this issue: Currently, a number of folks (myself included) thinks that Fedora should have in their target demographic users who are new to Linux in general and Fedora in particular. The sort of people who read a review in a magazine and decide to try out Fedora/Linux, or who have someone suggest they do so. These people expect to go and download Fedora and try it out. If they go to a page that has 20 choices, none of which they understand a high percentage of them will just go do something else, or try one and be upset when they download the wrong arch. If the Board decides that this demographic is NOT what Fedora should be aiming for, then I am all for the re-naming and reorganizing the download page. We could have Gnome desktop, KDE Desktop, Xfce Desktop, LXDE desktop, server edition, bare netinstall, and anything else that has enough people working on it to provide a valid offering. So, to try to bring this back to being constructive: 1. Feel free to appeal this decision to the Board. Ask them to overrule FESCo if you think this is a incorrect decision. 2. Try and gather statistics or other data that does indicate that Fedora isn't popular or used by new linux users, and we should abandon trying to interest these people in fedora. Based on all the time I spend helping new folks in #fedora, I don't see this being the case at all. 3. Try and come up with some magical layout that does not present 20 choices to new users, but allows those more experenced users to find the KDE and other installs they want. I really don't know how that would look, but perhaps there is some way. Magical can be: Shows up a list at the installer where you can chose from Gnome or KDE (both on the same line with no default activation) and on the next line an alternative environment, here you have thinks like E17, XFCE, LXDE ... But you only the them, if you click on alternative. Why treat XFCE as second class citizen ... ok lets add it to the list. But what about LXDE ? . GNOME KDE - official support from fedora (first class citizen) XFCE - spin only (second class citizen) LXDE - remix only (third class citizen) Just my two pennies worth. -- Regards, Niels You see where this leads too ... a distro should (I would even say must) provide a default choice. Its a distro not a bunch of packages that gets shipped. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On 06/28/2009 03:35 PM, Niels Haase wrote: GNOME KDE - official support from fedora (first class citizen) XFCE - spin only (second class citizen) LXDE - remix only (third class citizen) Just my two pennies worth. Xfce and LXDE are in the central repository and maintained well by the maintainers involved just like GNOME and KDE. Whether it is part of a separate spin or remix or neither doesn't really indicate any differences in the level of support. Some of the best maintained packages are in a niche and not part of any media. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
2009/6/28 Rahul Sundaram sunda...@fedoraproject.org: On 06/28/2009 03:35 PM, Niels Haase wrote: GNOME KDE - official support from fedora (first class citizen) XFCE - spin only (second class citizen) LXDE - remix only (third class citizen) Just my two pennies worth. Xfce and LXDE are in the central repository and maintained well by the maintainers involved just like GNOME and KDE. Whether it is part of a separate spin or remix or neither doesn't really indicate any differences in the level of support. Some of the best maintained packages are in a niche and not part of any media. I'm sorry for the badly chosen words. What I want to try to say was, that, if you take a look and the [1] page, it show you KDE and GNOME. For the normal user, it's look like that this version are the official supported one. Hope it's make it clear ;) [1] http://fedoraproject.org/de/get-fedora-all -- Regards, Niels Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Rahul Sundaram wrote: None of this is going to change with a FESCo vote. What it requires is someone interested in working with the websites team. The websites team has told me that using Desktop Edition as the name was a FESCo decision, that's why I brought up the name change in FESCo. Can we please stop the hot potato tactics and work together on fixing this mess? Or are the folks involved (except for me) just not interested in actually fixing the problem (or even actively interested in NOT fixing it) and thus trying to push it off to somebody else? Unfortunately, that's the impression I'm getting. :-( Involve the design team as well. One of the most vocal people from the websites team in the discussions so far is also one of the main design team members, so AFAICT it's already involved. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Rahul Sundaram wrote: The difference between features like a desktop globe and things like NetworkManager is obvious. I know NM is important, and in fact that's why we have been shipping the mature NM-gnome in KDE spins so far, and it does work fine in KDE. And chances are good for the native NM plasmoid to be ready to be the default for F12. It's already available as an option. I am talking about core desktop infrastructure. Core desktop infrastructure like flickerfree boot which is SARCASMsurely worlds more useful and important to people/SARCASM than a desktop globe with OpenStreetMap integration providing Free as in Speech street-level maps and place search, among other nice features? I use Marble a lot. Whereas doing away with a flicker at boot time is not going to radically change my life. What are you using if not Marble? Dead-tree maps? Some proprietary web service? (Are you aware of the strict copyright and even usage restrictions on those proprietary map services?) Sure you can use the openstreetmap.org website, but a desktop app like Marble is a nicer user interface, and it also has other features than just being a client for OSM. Moreover all the features I mention were driven within Fedora. And how is this relevant to the user? The user cares about what features they're getting, not who has written the code for them. KDE does lack integration with them. That word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Am Sonntag, den 28.06.2009, 15:21 +0200 schrieb Kevin Kofler: Core desktop infrastructure like flickerfree boot which is SARCASMsurely worlds more useful and important to people/SARCASM than a desktop globe with OpenStreetMap integration providing Free as in Speech street-level maps and place search, among other nice features? I use Marble a lot. Whereas doing away with a flicker at boot time is not going to radically change my life. What are you using if not Marble? Dead-tree maps? Some proprietary web service? (Are you aware of the strict copyright and even usage restrictions on those proprietary map services?) Sure you can use the openstreetmap.org website, but a desktop app like Marble is a nicer user interface, and it also has other features than just being a client for OSM. Moreover all the features I mention were driven within Fedora. And how is this relevant to the user? The user cares about what features they're getting, not who has written the code for them. KDE does lack integration with them. Okay, first of all, Marble has nothing to do with the discussion and to be fair let Viking be mentioned, which is a bit harder to use but surely works. Then to the point of Fedora-specific features: It is true, that almost every feature on the feature page of a new release gets integrated into the Gnome desktop first, the other desktops sometimes get them one release later (or not at all). Let's take the language changer as example. When I change the desktops language via system-config-language and log in again, it offers me to rename my folders. That is exclusively restricted to Gnome, but is surely useful and could be counted as Core desktop infrastructure. So the question is: Where do we draw the line? Do we draw the line by the ressources we have available to develop it? Or do we draw the line by user's needs, even if some people who only use Gnome anyway have to write a little hack for XFCE too? That is surely a political question, because we can't force people to implement their features for every desktop (we can't force them to do anything at all), besides from creating a policy that Fedora features have to work on every desktop (as long as they are GUI-related) if they want to be included in the release. So, do we want that, or do we want to continue like we did before? Apart from that, I agree that _someone_ has to change the download page _some day_. I don't wanna do that (I even couldn't), does anyone here? signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Am Sonntag, den 28.06.2009, 15:29 +0200 schrieb drago01: +---+ | [*] Fedora Live, featuring the GNOME Desktop | +---+ | [] Fedora Live KDE Edition| | [] Fedora Live XFCE Edition | | [] Fedora Live LXDE Edition | +---+ | [] Fedora Installation DVD| +(System Architectures)-+ | [*] x86 | | [] x86_64 | | [] PPC| | [] PPC64 | +---+ | (Download)| +---+ Would this make everybody happy? - The default Desktop is at the top and selected by default. - It is visiable that it includes GNOME for people who are looking for a specific Desktop - Other DEs are listed in at the default Download page rather than hidden behind links - The Arch can be selected at the download page - Maybe we can make the System Architectures section expandable and collapsed by default to not clutter the interface with to many options - Not sure about PPC (its moving to a secondary arch in F13) This looks awesome! If we set links to the different DE's on their names (I volounteer to create something like fedoraproject.org/wiki/WhatIsGnome) it would be perfect. We could even just set the links to the Wikipedia articles, they'll work fine too. signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 03:09:26PM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Niels Haase wrote: GNOME KDE - official support from fedora (first class citizen) XFCE - spin only (second class citizen) LXDE - remix only (third class citizen) It's actually worse than that: GNOME - presented on the main download page (first class citizen) KDE - hidden behind a pointless extra link (second class citizen) XFCE - hidden on spins.fedoraproject.org (third class citizen) LXDE - hidden in some fedorapeople.org directory (fourth class citizen) Your classification is somewhat flawed. There is a lot more going on here that it skims over. The Desktop (or Gnome) and KDE spins are both primary spins hosted on the master mirror and mirrored worldwide. It is also very apparent on the main download page. If your only classification for being treated as a 'secondary cititzen' is that there is a big button you have to click to get it, then I think you're ignoring the effort that goes on behind the scenes elsewhere. XFCE is an official spin, hosted on spins.fedoraproject.org with the rest of the non-primary spins. The LXDE spin is a fairly new spin. I don't know why it's not on spins.fedoraproject.org at the moment off the top of my head. What's next? A spin or remix for which you have to personally phone an ambassador for an inquiry and send a self-addressed stamped envelope to obtain it on one of those self-destructing CDs? ;-) New spins don't start at the top. They work through the Spins SIG, get approved, and get hosted on spins.fp.org. If there are massive downloads of a particular spin that warrant it being mirrored on the master mirror, that is possible. I don't believe that has happened yet. This is starting to feel like a hierarchical and very undemocratic society. There is a hierarchy. I'm not sure why you think this is a new development. We've always had some kind of hierarchy due to resource constraints in one form or another. Also, we are not a pure democracy. The word most used to describe the project is a meritocracy. I find that slightly misleading as well, but it's closer to an accurate description than a democracy would be. josh -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Josh Boyer wrote: The Desktop (or Gnome) and KDE spins are both primary spins hosted on the master mirror and mirrored worldwide. It is also very apparent on the main download page. If your only classification for being treated as a 'secondary cititzen' is that there is a big button you have to click to get it, then I think you're ignoring the effort that goes on behind the scenes elsewhere. I'm not ignoring the behind-the-scenes effort, I'm part of it! I'm complaining about the presentation not matching that effort. The LXDE spin is a fairly new spin. I don't know why it's not on spins.fedoraproject.org at the moment off the top of my head. Because it hasn't gotten approved yet. So this situation is likely to improve (making it hidden on spins.fedoraproject.org like XFCE and the specialized spins like FEL). Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Thomas Janssen wrote: Not really. Why not the same name for gnome as for the other spins. And why not give the user finally information and screenshots of what they get, for every spin? Why still treat the user as if he's dumb and need you to decide what he want. Give him enough information and he will decide. Plus, I'd put the dash after KDE, not before KDE. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Rahul, I question the point of ... making laundry lists of pros, cons, bugs of desktop X vs Y... I'm sure folks can come up with a similar list of gnome (or other) related negative items, or kde-only features too but I question it's constructiveness. My only comments here: 1. The desktop spin *is* gnome for cryin out loud. Seriously, common sense is just screaming in my head to call a spade a spade. 2. A bigger question to me is what does it mean to be the default desktop. All this it's the default because... comments make me wonder if folks are just grasping for reasons to justify the status quo. Where or how is this documented anywhere? If it isn't, shouldn't it be? I'd love to be wrong, but I bet being able to make a compelling and definitive justification is going to be *hard*. And, the answers to these questions will only get more important over time, it seems, as more and more viable alternatives arise (within Fedora), like sugar, XFCE, LXDE, etc... Hopefully it won't end up being something like: ... because The Board or FESCo says so, which is fine... it's close to honest (as I see it), but would be largely unsatisfying. -- Rex -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Sun, 28 Jun 2009, Christopher Stone wrote: Whatever desktop RH employees are paid to work on to satisfy their biggest RHEL customers needs. Or what they *think* their biggest RHEL customers want. I think the question you need to ask is why they must force this onto the Fedora *community* OS when the community is clearly objecting to it. 'the community' is an awfully flexibly concept. I think we have a handful of vocal opponents. luckily we don't have to implement every whim that the majority or a vocal group yells about. we are ( at best) a representative democracy. The representatives (on fesco) had an idea suggested to them. They voted. The idea was rejected. Now, instead of accepting that this how the system works we've spent nearly 3 days arguing about a decision which is DONE. I'm glad we've made such productive use of the system we set up. If someone believes fesco made a bad decision then you are welcome to take it to the board. The discussion here is completely unhelpful and never going to produce results that ANY group wants. -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
2009/6/28 Christopher Stone I think the question you need to ask is why they must force this onto the Fedora *community* OS when the community is clearly objecting to it. The *community* is not objecting to it - just parts of it. and only recently - a year ago, the KDE desktop was ion no shape to be considered the primary desktop. It is now according to its developers and those that drink the koolaid. However there are a significant number of people who either like Gnome or simply do not care too much. PS are there any plans to give KDE a unified theme with gnome? the two default themes are currently too different (kde being too grey). (I got KDE set up to my liking once - I accidentally only installed kdeworkspace and plasma, none of the KDE apps, and was thinking hey, this is not too bad. Nice and minimal too. Gotta say I am not a fan of the KDE apps as once I installed them, I decided to go back to gnome.) -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 03:09:26PM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Niels Haase wrote: GNOME KDE - official support from fedora (first class citizen) XFCE - spin only (second class citizen) LXDE - remix only (third class citizen) It's actually worse than that: GNOME - presented on the main download page (first class citizen) KDE - hidden behind a pointless extra link (second class citizen) The reality is that KDE *is* a second class citizen in Fedora - it doesn't get anywhere near the attention that Gnome does. If what you actually want is to change KDE's status, then that will involve attracting more developers and ensuring that they're as involved in the Fedora feature development process as the Gnome developers are. Once that's done then it's time for a discussion of how the options should be presented, but right now claiming that the two are equivalent is simply false. Changing the text on the website doesn't alter that. Fix reality before trying to fix our description of it. (And if KDE developers are failing to get involved in Fedora because of the layout of the download page, then I think there are larger problems...) -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Rahul, I question the point of ... making laundry lists of pros, cons, bugs of desktop X vs Y... I'm sure folks can come up with a similar list of gnome (or other) related negative items, or kde-only features too but I question it's constructiveness. My only comments here: 1. The desktop spin *is* gnome for cryin out loud. Seriously, common sense is just screaming in my head to call a spade a spade. 2. A bigger question to me is what does it mean to be the default desktop. All this it's the default because... comments make me wonder if folks are just grasping for reasons to justify the status quo. Where or how is this documented anywhere? If it isn't, shouldn't it be? We have a Desktop team. So IMHO the default desktop is what they decide it to be. They are currently focused only on Gnome. If they were focused on KDE, then the default desktop would be KDE. To change that, it would take some KDE contributors to join the Desktop team. When both are as well represented in the Desktop team, then the default desktop might be both of them. If KDE becomes more represented in the Desktop team, then it might become the one default desktop. To me, it's only a matter of who does the work. Would you complain that most of our webapps use TurboGears instead of Tomcat ? No, simply becasue that's what those who do the work (the Infrastructure team) decided to use. That's the same for the Desktop team. It doesn't take any policy to change this fact. It takes people willing to do the job where it needs to happen, in the right team. Just my thoughts anyway... -- Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Seth Vidal wrote: On Sun, 28 Jun 2009, Christopher Stone wrote: Whatever desktop RH employees are paid to work on to satisfy their biggest RHEL customers needs. Or what they *think* their biggest RHEL customers want. I think the question you need to ask is why they must force this onto the Fedora *community* OS when the community is clearly objecting to it. 'the community' is an awfully flexibly concept. I think we have a handful of vocal opponents. luckily we don't have to implement every whim that the majority or a vocal group yells about. we are ( at best) a representative democracy. The representatives (on fesco) had an idea suggested to them. They voted. The idea was rejected. Now, instead of accepting that this how the system works we've spent nearly 3 days arguing about a decision which is DONE. I'm glad we've made such productive use of the system we set up. If someone believes fesco made a bad decision then you are welcome to take it to the board. The discussion here is completely unhelpful and never going to produce results that ANY group wants. I agree that the voting was democratic and a decision was made by the votes of the majority in FESCo. However I do not agree that the discussion here is completely unhelpful. It shows some of us directly the bad decision(s) we made when we cast our votes in FESCo elections, so that we don't make the same mistake(s) again. I, for one, will be more careful to give my vote to those who are capable of performing (at least basic) reasoning and who are constructive in resolving conflicts. It really doesn't matter for me that much which direction they take, whether they are thinking my way or not. I just want to see my representatives doing their homework. Best, Orcan -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) wrote: 1. The desktop spin *is* gnome for cryin out loud. Seriously, common sense is just screaming in my head to call a spade a spade. We have a Desktop team. So IMHO the default desktop is what they decide it to be. They are currently focused only on Gnome. See #1. Call a spade a spade. -- Rex -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Seth Vidal wrote: I think we have a handful of vocal opponents. Where have you seen a hand with thousands of fingers? ;-) luckily we don't have to implement every whim that the majority or a vocal group yells about. If you go against the wishes of the majority, that's per definition undemocratic. Now, instead of accepting that this how the system works we've spent nearly 3 days arguing about a decision which is DONE. Decisions can be revised. If you aren't open to feedback from the community, you are a bad representative. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
2009/6/28 Orcan Ogetbil oget.fed...@gmail.com: On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Seth Vidal wrote: On Sun, 28 Jun 2009, Christopher Stone wrote: Whatever desktop RH employees are paid to work on to satisfy their biggest RHEL customers needs. Or what they *think* their biggest RHEL customers want. I think the question you need to ask is why they must force this onto the Fedora *community* OS when the community is clearly objecting to it. 'the community' is an awfully flexibly concept. I think we have a handful of vocal opponents. luckily we don't have to implement every whim that the majority or a vocal group yells about. we are ( at best) a representative democracy. The representatives (on fesco) had an idea suggested to them. They voted. The idea was rejected. Now, instead of accepting that this how the system works we've spent nearly 3 days arguing about a decision which is DONE. I'm glad we've made such productive use of the system we set up. If someone believes fesco made a bad decision then you are welcome to take it to the board. The discussion here is completely unhelpful and never going to produce results that ANY group wants. I agree that the voting was democratic and a decision was made by the votes of the majority in FESCo. However I do not agree that the discussion here is completely unhelpful. It shows some of us directly the bad decision(s) we made when we cast our votes in FESCo elections, so that we don't make the same mistake(s) again. I, for one, will be more careful to give my vote to those who are capable of performing (at least basic) reasoning and who are constructive in resolving conflicts. It really doesn't matter for me that much which direction they take, whether they are thinking my way or not. I just want to see my representatives doing their homework. Sorry for the full quote, but +100 -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 20:20:27 +0200 Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: Seth Vidal wrote: I think we have a handful of vocal opponents. Where have you seen a hand with thousands of fingers? ;-) luckily we don't have to implement every whim that the majority or a vocal group yells about. If you go against the wishes of the majority, that's per definition undemocratic. I always thought of Fedora being more of a meritocracy than a democracy. or in other words code / effort talks more than words. -- Arjan van de VenIntel Open Source Technology Centre For development, discussion and tips for power savings, visit http://www.lesswatts.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
2009/6/28 Matthew Garrett m...@redhat.com: On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 03:09:26PM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Niels Haase wrote: GNOME KDE - official support from fedora (first class citizen) XFCE - spin only (second class citizen) LXDE - remix only (third class citizen) It's actually worse than that: GNOME - presented on the main download page (first class citizen) KDE - hidden behind a pointless extra link (second class citizen) The reality is that KDE *is* a second class citizen in Fedora - it doesn't get anywhere near the attention that Gnome does. Thanks, but i think everybody knows that very well. (And if KDE developers are failing to get involved in Fedora because of the layout of the download page, then I think there are larger problems...) The KDE SIG does a great job. We can have (and i use) always the latest and greatest KDE releases. As we speak here KDE 4.3Beta2. To be a first class citizen, there's no need to have more developers. More developers would of course be fine. It is enough to have finally a smart webpage where users can find out what they get with every spin, so they can decide what will be their default desktop. NOBODY out there in the wild, who maybe wants to become a Fedora user, cares about what FESCo, The Board or anyone else decides what's the default desktop is. If you think that having more developers and treat people like they are dumb is the better way, then you're wrong. The only thing you get with that behavior is, you will loose your userbase. There's as always more than one way. We can help them with a proper webpage or we can let them go to other Distros where they get the information to decide what they want. It is not too hard to understand what's the part of a webpage. At least i thought so. But maybe i'm wrong and the downloadpage is just for some measuring. Would be sad. -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Sun, 28 Jun 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote: Seth Vidal wrote: I think we have a handful of vocal opponents. Where have you seen a hand with thousands of fingers? ;-) luckily we don't have to implement every whim that the majority or a vocal group yells about. If you go against the wishes of the majority, that's per definition undemocratic. 1. Do you know what a representative democracy is? 2. I've yet to see this majority you speak of. President Nixon always talked about a great, silent majority except he was completely full of crap. Decisions can be revised. If you aren't open to feedback from the community, you are a bad representative. So at no point do we stop arguing and allow decisions to be made? You just keep screaming and hurling invectives until you get your way? What sort of system is that? Rule by tantrum? -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Christopher Stonechris.st...@gmail.com wrote: Whatever desktop RH employees are paid to work on to satisfy their biggest RHEL customers needs. Or what they *think* their biggest RHEL customers want. I think the question you need to ask is why they must force this onto the Fedora *community* OS when the community is clearly objecting to it. RedHat employees are paid to work on Fedora, why would anyone scoff at their contributions to the project? Would it be more acceptable if someone from Intel or Dell were developing and contributing to Fedora and backing Gnome? This is a community and we are fortunate enough to have some of our community members who are lucky enough to have landed a job where they are paid to work full time on our community based project. Does the fact that they get a pay check make their contributions any different than those of us who do it in our spare time? I honestly don't see where this has been forced into the distribution by RedHat either, it has been decided upon by the community, by community members. -Adam -- http://maxamillion.googlepages.com - () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Adam Millermaxamill...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Christopher Stonechris.st...@gmail.com wrote: Whatever desktop RH employees are paid to work on to satisfy their biggest RHEL customers needs. Or what they *think* their biggest RHEL customers want. I think the question you need to ask is why they must force this onto the Fedora *community* OS when the community is clearly objecting to it. RedHat employees are paid to work on Fedora, why would anyone scoff at their contributions to the project? Because they are focusing their efforts in the wrong place. They should be helping KDE, not GNOME! GNOME is a dying if not dead desktop. It can barely hold its own as a default install on Fedora! The sooner RH employees abandon GNOME the better prepared they will be for the ultimate transition they will have to eventually make. Would it be more acceptable if someone from Intel or Dell were developing and contributing to Fedora and backing Gnome? Acceptable to me? I don't own stock in Intel or Dell. I own shares of RHT. If Redhat is wasting resources on GNOME, I care about it! This is a community and we are fortunate enough to have some of our community members who are lucky enough to have landed a job where they are paid to work full time on our community based project. Does the fact that they get a pay check make their contributions any different than those of us who do it in our spare time? Yes, it would appear they get to force their misguided choice of desktop onto the ignorant masses, and even still it can barely hold its own as the default. RH is going to have to abandon GNOME eventually, and the sooner they do so the better. I honestly don't see where this has been forced into the distribution by RedHat either, it has been decided upon by the community, by community members. -Adam -- http://maxamillion.googlepages.com - () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 7:03 AM, Kevin Koflerkevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: Rahul Sundaram wrote: None of this is going to change with a FESCo vote. What it requires is someone interested in working with the websites team. The websites team has told me that using Desktop Edition as the name was a FESCo decision, that's why I brought up the name change in FESCo. Can we please stop the hot potato tactics and work together on fixing this mess? Or are the folks involved (except for me) just not interested in actually fixing the problem (or even actively interested in NOT fixing it) and thus trying to push it off to somebody else? Unfortunately, that's the impression I'm getting. :-( Here are the issues as I see it: 1) You are using language that inflames opinions (as much as the people talking opposite). And then you want reason to come into the discussion. 2) You see a problem, but are having a problem communicating what the problem is without going into what I a neutral person feel like is 'you are with us or against us'. Personally we all know how that usually goes. Doesn't matter if the cause is just people will choose to be against because they do not like that kind of rhetoric. 3) You keep trying to get the last word as if that will somehow will win an internet fight. You want things fixed? How about the following: A) Quit being vocal about it. It is only throwing chum in the water and basically turning people off. Look and listen. Ask people privately what they are seeing and why you aren't getting your point across. B) Look at the problem and realize its currently not (and probably never been ) about technical qualifications. Either side pushing what features are in and are out are missing the point. Look and learn what the point really is and frame the questions and possible answers to answer those hidden points. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. The Merchant of Venice -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On 06/28/2009 01:12 PM, Seth Vidal wrote: 2. I've yet to see this majority you speak of. Here I am, part of the silent KDE-users majority, who uses Fedora because it provides great KDE experience. I am frustrated however by the fact that even finding Fedora KDE download page is experience similar to looking for Linux laptops on Dell website... I have been using Red Hat Linux since RH 4.2 through 9 and then following Fedora... Attitudes I see from Fedora Gnome camp are exactly what makes KDE users (and I presume developers too) wary of the distro. It certainly worries me. Looks like you are afraid of actually getting bigger KDE majority for some reason. -- thufor -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 8:29 AM, drago01drag...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Kevin Koflerkevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: Niels Haase wrote: GNOME KDE - official support from fedora (first class citizen) XFCE - spin only (second class citizen) LXDE - remix only (third class citizen) It's actually worse than that: GNOME - presented on the main download page (first class citizen) KDE - hidden behind a pointless extra link (second class citizen) XFCE - hidden on spins.fedoraproject.org (third class citizen) LXDE - hidden in some fedorapeople.org directory (fourth class citizen) What's next? A spin or remix for which you have to personally phone an ambassador for an inquiry and send a self-addressed stamped envelope to obtain it on one of those self-destructing CDs? ;-) This is starting to feel like a hierarchical and very undemocratic society. +---+ | [*] Fedora Live, featuring the GNOME Desktop | +---+ | [] Fedora Live KDE Edition | | [] Fedora Live XFCE Edition | | [] Fedora Live LXDE Edition | +---+ | [] Fedora Installation DVD | +(System Architectures)-+ | [*] x86 | | [] x86_64 | | [] PPC | | [] PPC64 | +---+ | (Download) | +---+ Would this make everybody happy? - The default Desktop is at the top and selected by default. - It is visiable that it includes GNOME for people who are looking for a specific Desktop - Other DEs are listed in at the default Download page rather than hidden behind links - The Arch can be selected at the download page - Maybe we can make the System Architectures section expandable and collapsed by default to not clutter the interface with to many options - Not sure about PPC (its moving to a secondary arch in F13) -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list +1 -Adam -- http://maxamillion.googlepages.com - () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Matthew Garrett wrote: The reality is that KDE *is* a second class citizen in Fedora - it doesn't get anywhere near the attention that Gnome does. SARCASMThanks/SARCASM for insulting our (KDE SIG's) work yet again, that's SARCASMreally appreciated/SARCASM! :-/ Where are the monthly bugfix updates of the entirety of GNOME in the stable updates? Where are the updates to minor feature releases? Oh wait, they don't exist! Yet we provide all this for KDE! We even provide a semi-official unstable repository (at kde-redhat) with the latest beta KDE backported to stable Fedora releases, again where's the equivalent service for GNOME? If what you actually want is to change KDE's status, then that will involve attracting more developers While we would of course appreciate more help, we have enough developers right now to fully support KDE. It's the presentation on common Fedora places like the download page which is lacking. and ensuring that they're as involved in the Fedora feature development process as the Gnome developers are. Most of those features are upstream GNOME features which just happen to be implemented by Fedora developers (or, in most cases more accurately, RH developers) and which are inherently or by the nature of their implementation GNOME-specific. It's simply unreasonable to expect KDE to support every single new GNOME feature at the same time as GNOME, the opposite is not true either! We do track features which are required for distro integration and take those seriously. I personally did a lot of the work to make these work. Some success stories: * ConsoleKit was supported in KDM right from Fedora 7 when it got introduced. I did the integration work. * PulseAudio got enabled by default in KDE at the same time as in GNOME (Fedora 8). Rex Dieter did most of that work (it was coordinated through IRC). It involved adding a startup script to kde-settings (no longer needed in current releases because PulseAudio's startup is now handled through the standard /etc/xdg/autostart mechanism) and making aRts (Fedora 8 was KDE 3) work on top of it. * FeatureDictionary (i.e. using hunspell throughout) was implemented for KDE in the same release which implemented it in GNOME (Fedora 9). I did the required patches (backporting the Sonnet Enchant backend to KDE 3's KSpell2, adding hunspell support to the legacy KSpell (KDE 3) / K3Spell (KDE 4)). Once that's done then it's time for a discussion of how the options should be presented, but right now claiming that the two are equivalent is simply false. Changing the text on the website doesn't alter that. Fix reality before trying to fix our description of it. Reality doesn't need fixing, the website does. The work is being done already. (And if KDE developers are failing to get involved in Fedora because of the layout of the download page, then I think there are larger problems...) Can't you understand that volunteer developers are reluctant to work on a distribution which considers their work second class? You seem to either be completely unfamiliar with or have completely lost touch with the concept of volunteer development, judging both from your repeated insistence on full-time developers and from your lack of understanding of what motivates or demotivates volunteers. Getting paychecks from RH is not the only thing which can motivate people to participate in Fedora! I do a lot of work for Fedora completely for free, because I like Fedora and want it to be great. Getting continuously criticized along with other fellow SIG members (most of which are also unpaid volunteers) for supposedly not doing enough when we're even doing things the GNOME maintainers are not doing (such as new version backports, both stable ones in official updates and unstable or regression-prone ones in a separate unstable repository) is extremely frustrating and demotivating. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On 2009-06-28 03:29:52 PM, drago01 wrote: +---+ | [*] Fedora Live, featuring the GNOME Desktop | +---+ | [] Fedora Live KDE Edition| | [] Fedora Live XFCE Edition | | [] Fedora Live LXDE Edition | +---+ | [] Fedora Installation DVD| +(System Architectures)-+ | [*] x86 | | [] x86_64 | | [] PPC| | [] PPC64 | +---+ | (Download)| +---+ Would this make everybody happy? - The default Desktop is at the top and selected by default. - It is visiable that it includes GNOME for people who are looking for a specific Desktop - Other DEs are listed in at the default Download page rather than hidden behind links - The Arch can be selected at the download page - Maybe we can make the System Architectures section expandable and No, this would not make everybody happy. The websites team has given up on making everybody happy a long time ago. Just like with the old download page at http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora-all, new users would be confused about exactly what they need to choose. Just ask anybody that has been helping out in #fedora before we changed the main download page. We choose one group to target more than the others, and that group is new users that don't know what to choose. We direct those new users at the default and most common download instead of throwing choices at them. People that do know exactly what they want have one extra click to go to http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora-all where they have all of the choices listed. If other DEs were to be moved off of spins.fp.o in the future, this is where they'd go as well. Thanks, Ricky pgpPOLtx8KxTy.pgp Description: PGP signature -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Arjan van de Ven wrote: I always thought of Fedora being more of a meritocracy than a democracy. or in other words code / effort talks more than words. The code / effort is what we're doing in KDE SIG. All I'm asking for is for that work to be accurately represented in places like the download page and for misleading terms like Desktop or even the desktop to stop being used to designate GNOME (because doing so implies there's only one desktop and does not do justice to the work we're doing in KDE SIG, nor to the work of the XFCE, LXDE and Sugar SIGs for that matter). Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Am Sonntag, den 28.06.2009, 13:45 -0700 schrieb Christopher Stone: Because they are focusing their efforts in the wrong place. They should be helping KDE, not GNOME! GNOME is a dying if not dead desktop. It can barely hold its own as a default install on Fedora! The sooner RH employees abandon GNOME the better prepared they will be for the ultimate transition they will have to eventually make. Are you really serious about that? I don't think Gnome is dying, I just see it may not have a very clear goal in Gnome 3. But the Gnome desktop as it is is surely usable and is under active development. Claiming that Gnome is dying, or dead, sounds like FUD. If you really think so, please back it up with facts. signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 11:45 PM, Julian Aloofijulian.fedorali...@googlemail.com wrote: Am Sonntag, den 28.06.2009, 13:45 -0700 schrieb Christopher Stone: Because they are focusing their efforts in the wrong place. They should be helping KDE, not GNOME! GNOME is a dying if not dead desktop. It can barely hold its own as a default install on Fedora! The sooner RH employees abandon GNOME the better prepared they will be for the ultimate transition they will have to eventually make. Are you really serious about that? I don't think Gnome is dying, I just see it may not have a very clear goal in Gnome 3. But the Gnome desktop as it is is surely usable and is under active development. Claiming that Gnome is dying, or dead, sounds like FUD. If you really think so, please back it up with facts. There aren't any facts that's pure BS. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Dariusz J. Garbowski schrieb: On 06/28/2009 01:12 PM, Seth Vidal wrote: 2. I've yet to see this majority you speak of. Here I am, part of the silent KDE-users majority, who uses Fedora because it provides great KDE experience. I am frustrated however by the fact that even finding Fedora KDE download page is experience similar to looking for Linux laptops on Dell website... I have been using Red Hat Linux since RH 4.2 through 9 and then following Fedora... Attitudes I see from Fedora Gnome camp are exactly what makes KDE users (and I presume developers too) wary of the distro. It certainly worries me. Looks like you are afraid of actually getting bigger KDE majority for some reason. I feel exactly the same. And please add me to the same list. /ds -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Just look at the page of openSUSE: http://software.opensuse.org/ openSUSE is more targetet at newbies than Fedora is, and reading through their forums I don't see many people who are confused by this page, they always have a little Help button if they don't understand a certain point. And if someone doesn't understand how this simple web page works, I doubt he'll survive the partitioning... signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Sun, 28 Jun 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote: Seth Vidal wrote: So at no point do we stop arguing and allow decisions to be made? You just keep screaming and hurling invectives until you get your way? What sort of system is that? Rule by tantrum? In this case, additional feedback was gained which would justify reconsidering the issue. What additional feedback? All I've heard in this thread is the same tired argument over and over. -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Naheem Zaffar wrote: The *community* is not objecting to it - just parts of it. and only recently - a year ago, the KDE desktop was ion no shape to be considered the primary desktop. KDE 4.0.3 (which is the first KDE 4 version Fedora shipped) worked just fine for daily use, I used it on my notebook computer just fine, and at 4.1.2 both my machines were running KDE 4. Most other KDE SIG members started using KDE 4 full time even before me. But anyway, it's pointless to argue whether KDE 4.0 was crap or not, the fact is that KDE 4.2 (i.e. what we have now) is clearly a serious successor to KDE 3.5 as one of the 2 main desktops. However there are a significant number of people who either like Gnome or simply do not care too much. But are they opposed to calling the GNOME spin GNOME spin rather than Desktop spin? If they don't care either way, fixing the name won't hurt them in any way. PS are there any plans to give KDE a unified theme with gnome? It already exists, it's called Bluecurve/Quarticurve. :-) We also ship things like gtk-qt-engine and the QGtkStyle which is now part of Qt 4.5 which allow using widget styles for one in the other. (I got KDE set up to my liking once - I accidentally only installed kdeworkspace and plasma, none of the KDE apps, and was thinking hey, this is not too bad. Nice and minimal too. Gotta say I am not a fan of the KDE apps as once I installed them, I decided to go back to gnome.) Well, the KDE desktop can be used without the apps and vice-versa. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Sun, 2009-06-28 at 20:20 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Seth Vidal wrote: I think we have a handful of vocal opponents. Where have you seen a hand with thousands of fingers? ;-) luckily we don't have to implement every whim that the majority or a vocal group yells about. If you go against the wishes of the majority, that's per definition undemocratic. If we were being democratic, i.e. proper majority rule, we'd kick KDE out of the distro as its definitely not 50% of developers or users. Maybe we should have Survivor: Desktop, where we can vote KDE off the island. Dave. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) wrote: We have a Desktop team. That's just yet another syndrom of the misnomer disease, though it's not easy to change because that team is part of RH, not Fedora. So IMHO the default desktop is what they decide it to be. Nonsense. The Desktop Team is an internal team at RH which has no authority or mandate from Fedora to take such decisions. They are currently focused only on Gnome. If they were focused on KDE, then the default desktop would be KDE. To change that, it would take some KDE contributors to join the Desktop team. That's a completely wrong premise. The so-called Desktop Team is a team at RH specifically tasked to work on GNOME. KDE is NOT part of the Desktop Team at RH, ltinkl and jreznik are on the Base OS Team at RH, not the Desktop Team. (I'm not sure what organization unit Than Ngo is part of at RH.) What we could try to form is a Desktop SIG in Fedora comprising contributors to all the desktops, but I don't see such a SIG as beneficial, it makes more sense to be organized in one SIG per desktop. There was an attempt at building a Desktop SIG, but that was really a GNOME SIG and it didn't live very long. It seems to me that the Desktop Team at RH is not interested in a true community SIG for GNOME, let alone in a cross-desktop Desktop SIG. When both are as well represented in the Desktop team, then the default desktop might be both of them. If KDE becomes more represented in the Desktop team, then it might become the one default desktop. To me, it's only a matter of who does the work. Would you complain that most of our webapps use TurboGears instead of Tomcat ? No, simply becasue that's what those who do the work (the Infrastructure team) decided to use. That's the same for the Desktop team. It doesn't take any policy to change this fact. It takes people willing to do the job where it needs to happen, in the right team. Just my thoughts anyway... The problem is that you're fundamentally misunderstanding the nature and purpose of the Desktop Team. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Adam Miller wrote: RedHat employees are paid to work on Fedora, why would anyone scoff at their contributions to the project? Would it be more acceptable if someone from Intel or Dell were developing and contributing to Fedora and backing Gnome? This is a community and we are fortunate enough to have some of our community members who are lucky enough to have landed a job where they are paid to work full time on our community based project. Does the fact that they get a pay check make their contributions any different than those of us who do it in our spare time? What we're scoffing at is that some people are, in fact, treating them differently, see e.g. the continuous Where are your full-time employees? bullsh*t used by some people who will recognize themselves to discredit the mostly-volunteer KDE SIG. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 11:35:07PM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Matthew Garrett wrote: The reality is that KDE *is* a second class citizen in Fedora - it doesn't get anywhere near the attention that Gnome does. SARCASMThanks/SARCASM for insulting our (KDE SIG's) work yet again, that's SARCASMreally appreciated/SARCASM! :-/ I think the KDE SIG does a wonderful job given the resources available to them. But implying that they're able to produce the same quantity of useful work as the Fedora developers working on Gnome is either unrealistic or a direct insult to those developers. Given the same average level of competence (and assuming useful management), a larger team will produce more work in a given period of time. Where are the monthly bugfix updates of the entirety of GNOME in the stable updates? Where are the updates to minor feature releases? Oh wait, they don't exist! Yet we provide all this for KDE! We even provide a semi-official unstable repository (at kde-redhat) with the latest beta KDE backported to stable Fedora releases, again where's the equivalent service for GNOME? I think you're using the wrong metric here. and ensuring that they're as involved in the Fedora feature development process as the Gnome developers are. Most of those features are upstream GNOME features which just happen to be implemented by Fedora developers (or, in most cases more accurately, RH developers) and which are inherently or by the nature of their implementation GNOME-specific. It's simply unreasonable to expect KDE to support every single new GNOME feature at the same time as GNOME, the opposite is not true either! I work on power management. I think this is an important and worthwhile feature, and so I spend a lot of time ensuring that Fedora has bleeding-edge power management functionality that sets us apart from every other OS. This requires desktop integration. KDE does not have that level of power management integration. KDE has, in fact, a power management UI that commits almost every single power management error possible. If KDE is to be considered equivalent to Gnome, then that means we can't say Fedora has awesome power management. Instead, we're limited to saying Fedora (Gnome spin) has awesome power management. That's not a useful way to communicate what we're doing. If there are resources in the Fedora KDE SIG who are willing to help fix this, that'd be awesome. It'll involve a fair amount of upstream work, including convincing developers who have resisted this issue in the past. It's not work I'm willing to do myself. (I'll be giving a presentation on these issues at the cross desktop track at the desktop summit in a week's time. If anyone is there and interested in working on this, that'd be great) We do track features which are required for distro integration and take those seriously. I personally did a lot of the work to make these work. Some success stories: * ConsoleKit was supported in KDM right from Fedora 7 when it got introduced. I did the integration work. Excellent! * PulseAudio got enabled by default in KDE at the same time as in GNOME (Fedora 8). Rex Dieter did most of that work (it was coordinated through IRC). It involved adding a startup script to kde-settings (no longer needed in current releases because PulseAudio's startup is now handled through the standard /etc/xdg/autostart mechanism) and making aRts (Fedora 8 was KDE 3) work on top of it. Excellent! * FeatureDictionary (i.e. using hunspell throughout) was implemented for KDE in the same release which implemented it in GNOME (Fedora 9). I did the required patches (backporting the Sonnet Enchant backend to KDE 3's KSpell2, adding hunspell support to the legacy KSpell (KDE 3) / K3Spell (KDE 4)). Excellent! But this is a subset of what was added to Fedora in each of these releases, and if we're going to advertise certain important functionality as a Fedora feature then it needs to be included in the Fedora that we encourage users to use. If you want KDE to be considered on parity then either KDE needs to implement everything we define as a Fedora feature or we need to alter the fedora feature process in such a way that features are flagged for the desktops that implement them. If that's what you want, then make that argument rather than complaining about the naming. You're trying to put the cart before the horse. Once that's done then it's time for a discussion of how the options should be presented, but right now claiming that the two are equivalent is simply false. Changing the text on the website doesn't alter that. Fix reality before trying to fix our description of it. Reality doesn't need fixing, the website does. The work is being done already. I disagree, but I think that's pretty clear by now. (And if KDE developers are failing to get involved in Fedora because of the layout of the download page, then I think there are larger
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Ricky Zhou wrote: We choose one group to target more than the others, and that group is new users that don't know what to choose. We direct those new users at the default and most common download instead of throwing choices at them. The thing is, that's exactly the type of design GNOME is using and KDE is rejecting, so you will never get KDE people to approve of this. And thus following that policy makes our download page look biased and uninviting to KDE users. You seem to also be missing the fact that the default download page is the first impression EVERYONE will get of Fedora, even people experienced with GNU/Linux who know very well what KDE and GNOME are. People that do know exactly what they want have one extra click to go to http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora-all where they have all of the choices listed. That assumes they actually know what they get when they click on the mysterious sidebar link. People can be experienced GNU/Linux users without knowing the sitemap of the Fedora web site by heart. And as irrelevant as it may be in practice for experienced users, people do look at how the default download page looks like to judge how much a distribution supports the various desktop environments. It may sound silly to you, it might even actually BE silly, but it's something people do, so it has to be taken into account in your design. Trading our reputation in the KDE community (i.e. about half of the GNU/Linux user base!) for the convenience of completely clueless potential users who don't even know what GNOME and KDE are and can't even be bothered to look them up with a search engine (who are unlikely to become permanent Fedora users and even more unlikely to become contributors) is a really bad tradeoff! If other DEs were to be moved off of spins.fp.o in the future, Count on me to fight tooth and nails against declassing KDE in that way! Turning the KDE spin torrent-only (as the spins.fp.o spins are now) would be a real catastrophe. Not everyone can use BitTorrent. We really need the KDE live image to remain mirrored over HTTP/FTP. And it also deserves to be listed on the official download page! Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Matthew Garrett wrote: Where are the monthly bugfix updates of the entirety of GNOME in the stable updates? Where are the updates to minor feature releases? Oh wait, they don't exist! Yet we provide all this for KDE! We even provide a semi-official unstable repository (at kde-redhat) with the latest beta KDE backported to stable Fedora releases, again where's the equivalent service for GNOME? I think you're using the wrong metric here. I'm just pointing out that we're providing services the GNOME packagers aren't providing. And those are packaging-level services which I consider to be an important part of a desktop's user experience on a distro. We shouldn't forget during all this talk about features that the primary purpose of Fedora packagers is packaging, not upstream development, and we're doing a great job at that. Sure, I'd like more Fedora involvement in upstream KDE development, but upstream development is not primarily what our SIG is for. I work on power management. I think this is an important and worthwhile feature, and so I spend a lot of time ensuring that Fedora has bleeding-edge power management functionality that sets us apart from every other OS. This requires desktop integration. KDE does not have that level of power management integration. KDE has, in fact, a power management UI that commits almost every single power management error possible. If KDE is to be considered equivalent to Gnome, then that means we can't say Fedora has awesome power management. Instead, we're limited to saying Fedora (Gnome spin) has awesome power management. That's not a useful way to communicate what we're doing. Are you really sure that PowerDevil is objectively bad and this it not just a personal opinion? I don't think the people who work on PowerDevil are idiots, so they must have had some reason(s) to design the UI the way they did. And I haven't personally noticed anything obviously bad with PowerDevil. [...] or we need to alter the fedora feature process in such a way that features are flagged for the desktops that implement them. This is obviously the right solution. I agree. The multiple years of unpaid work I spent on Debian and Ubuntu ought to demonstrate that. I care enough about Fedora that I spend a significant amount of time working on it outside my paid hours. Many of the contributions I've made to Fedora are entirely out of the scope of my job, but I do it because I care about producing an OS that's competitive with anything else on the market. Excellent! So please try not to sound like volunteers' work is somehow inferior to paid engineers' work. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 01:54:37AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Matthew Garrett wrote: I think you're using the wrong metric here. I'm just pointing out that we're providing services the GNOME packagers aren't providing. And those are packaging-level services which I consider to be an important part of a desktop's user experience on a distro. We shouldn't forget during all this talk about features that the primary purpose of Fedora packagers is packaging, not upstream development, and we're doing a great job at that. Sure, I'd like more Fedora involvement in upstream KDE development, but upstream development is not primarily what our SIG is for. But when we talk about Fedora features, we're not talking about packaging updates. When we talk about what differentiates Fedora from other distributions, it's rarely the quality of the packaging that's the focus. People choose between distributions based on the features that they provide. If the primary focus of Fedora is to produce a compelling operating system, then upstream features and development are a significant part of making that argument to potential users. I work on power management. I think this is an important and worthwhile feature, and so I spend a lot of time ensuring that Fedora has bleeding-edge power management functionality that sets us apart from every other OS. This requires desktop integration. KDE does not have that level of power management integration. KDE has, in fact, a power management UI that commits almost every single power management error possible. If KDE is to be considered equivalent to Gnome, then that means we can't say Fedora has awesome power management. Instead, we're limited to saying Fedora (Gnome spin) has awesome power management. That's not a useful way to communicate what we're doing. Are you really sure that PowerDevil is objectively bad and this it not just a personal opinion? I don't think the people who work on PowerDevil are idiots, so they must have had some reason(s) to design the UI the way they did. And I haven't personally noticed anything obviously bad with PowerDevil. I'm sure, yes. It makes several mistakes that I've been arguing against for years (presenting power management in terms of profiles, making it easy for users to change cpu frequency governer mode without making it clear that almost anything they change there will consume more power and will probably compromise performance, implying that performance and pwoersaving are a tradeoff) and whenever I bring these issues up I'm either told that I'm wrong or that it doesn't do that. It's heavily based on how people think power management works, as opposed to how power management actually works on modern hardware. There's a lot of counterintuitive results in this field. [...] or we need to alter the fedora feature process in such a way that features are flagged for the desktops that implement them. This is obviously the right solution. Ok. This is a solid change that you can present to fesco and have discussed. It's got a lot more bearing on how we treat Gnome and KDE than the layout of the download page, and I'd consider it as something that would need to be done if you're going to argue for parity in that respect. Because, fundamentally, your argument isn't about CD naming. It's about how these two desktops are treated in the distribution. Changing the names doesn't change the treatment, whereas changing the treatment eventually results in the name change ocurring naturally. I agree. The multiple years of unpaid work I spent on Debian and Ubuntu ought to demonstrate that. I care enough about Fedora that I spend a significant amount of time working on it outside my paid hours. Many of the contributions I've made to Fedora are entirely out of the scope of my job, but I do it because I care about producing an OS that's competitive with anything else on the market. Excellent! So please try not to sound like volunteers' work is somehow inferior to paid engineers' work. I don't think it is. I think that volunteers are capable of producing work of equal quality to full-time workers. But I also think that full-time workers are able to produce more of that work, and if there's more of them to start with then that makes an even larger difference to the total contribution to the project. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Sun, 2009-06-28 at 23:35 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Matthew Garrett wrote: The reality is that KDE *is* a second class citizen in Fedora - it doesn't get anywhere near the attention that Gnome does. SARCASMThanks/SARCASM for insulting our (KDE SIG's) work yet again, that's SARCASMreally appreciated/SARCASM! :-/ Where are the monthly bugfix updates of the entirety of GNOME in the stable updates? Where are the updates to minor feature releases? Oh wait, they don't exist! Now I guess it would be my turn to feel insulted, and stamp my foot, because I do the majority of the stable Gnome updates. And yes, they do exist. But I propose we stop this game now. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
Matthias Clasen wrote: On Sun, 2009-06-28 at 23:35 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Matthew Garrett wrote: The reality is that KDE *is* a second class citizen in Fedora - it doesn't get anywhere near the attention that Gnome does. SARCASMThanks/SARCASM for insulting our (KDE SIG's) work yet again, that's SARCASMreally appreciated/SARCASM! :-/ Where are the monthly bugfix updates of the entirety of GNOME in the stable updates? Where are the updates to minor feature releases? Oh wait, they don't exist! Now I guess it would be my turn to feel insulted, and stamp my foot, because I do the majority of the stable Gnome updates. And yes, they do exist. But I propose we stop this game now. seconded. constructive productivity has left the building. -- Rex -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 01:21:15AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Dave Airlie wrote: If we were being democratic, i.e. proper majority rule, we'd kick KDE out of the distro as its definitely not 50% of developers or users. That assumes that the people who are not using KDE want it kicked out. I don't think a majority of Fedora community members would be dumb enough to vote for instantly losing around 30% of our users. Personally I think that kicking KDE out would be a good idea if it would get rid of all the KDE fanbois and fanboi-type shrill argumentation. -- Cheers! (Relax...have a homebrew) Neil ...aliquando et insanire iucundum est. -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 04:09:39AM +0200, Neil Thompson wrote: Personally I think that kicking KDE out would be a good idea if it would get rid of all the KDE fanbois and fanboi-type shrill argumentation. That's unnecessary. The people involved in this discussion have contributed a lot to Fedora, and there's no need to imply that they're lacking in rationality. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: FESCo meeting summary for 2009-06-26
On 2009-06-29 01:13:07 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: The thing is, that's exactly the type of design GNOME is using and KDE is rejecting, so you will never get KDE people to approve of this. And thus following that policy makes our download page look biased and uninviting to KDE users. Sorry, but even if presenting one default, unconfusing choice to new users that have absolutely no idea what they want is considered biased against what KDE users approve of, then there is no way to make you happy while sticking to the goal of that page. We make sure clueless users can get the default choice first - people that know what they want can live with an extra click. If KDE were the default choice for these new clueless users, it would certainly also be the single default choice on the front get-fedora page. That assumes they actually know what they get when they click on the mysterious sidebar link. People can be experienced GNU/Linux users without knowing the sitemap of the Fedora web site by heart. I'm sorry? KDE fans go here! is mysterious? We're happy to take suggestions for better text there. And as irrelevant as it may be in practice for experienced users, people do look at how the default download page looks like to judge how much a distribution supports the various desktop environments. It may sound silly to you, it might even actually BE silly, but it's something people do, so it has to be taken into account in your design. Trading our reputation in the KDE community (i.e. about half of the GNU/Linux user base!) for the convenience of completely clueless potential users who don't even know what GNOME and KDE are and can't even be bothered to look them up with a search engine (who are unlikely to become permanent Fedora users and even more unlikely to become contributors) is a really bad tradeoff! Somebody could just as well say, Trading the convenience of completely clueless potential users for experienced users who can't even be bothered to look up how much a distribution supports the various desktop environments (or just click the giant KDE button on the sidebar) is a really bad tradeoff! You're welcome to bring up the target user for our get-fedora page on fedora-websites-list if you disagree, but the vast majority of us want to put clueless users first and have experienced users that know exactly what they want make one extra click. If other DEs were to be moved off of spins.fp.o in the future, Count on me to fight tooth and nails against declassing KDE in that way! Turning the KDE spin torrent-only (as the spins.fp.o spins are now) would be a real catastrophe. Just to be clear, I said nothing about KDE being moved to spins.fp.o, I said if other DEs were to be moved _off_ of spins.fp.o, it would get an entry on get-fedora-all and maybe a dedicated page like KDE, but it would not be yet another option on the front get-fedora page. Thanks, Ricky pgpP37eLG7l15.pgp Description: PGP signature -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
