Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Thomas Janssen]

2009/10/21 Jesse Keating :
> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 13:28 -0400, Darryl L. Pierce wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 06:22:04PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
>> > IIUC, you're mis-interpreting the YUM output there. NetworkManager-gnome
>> > doesn't have a dependancy on KDE, rather it happens to be part of the
>> > "KDE (K Desktop Environment)"  group. ie in doing a 'groupremove'
>> > you explicitly asked YUM to remove 'NetworkManager-gnome' since its
>> > in that group. If you had just done an package level remove, eg
>> > 'yum remove kde*' then NetworkManager-gnome would not have been removed
>>
>> You're correct in that removing the KDE group attempts to remove the
>> NetworkManager-gnome rpm. I remembered uninstalling KDE also removed
>> NetworkManager-gnome which borked my laptop until I re-installed the
>> RPM. That's something that should be fixed.
>
>
> Group removals are dangerous.  Groups can share packages between them.
> Perhaps somebody should submit a patch to yum that gives groupremove a
> flag that says don't remove any package that is listed in any other
> group.

That is the perfect idea/solution. Sadly i can't volunteer.

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Seth Vidal]

On Wed, 21 Oct 2009, Bill Nottingham wrote:


Darryl L. Pierce (dpie...@redhat.com) said:

You're correct in that removing the KDE group attempts to remove the
NetworkManager-gnome rpm. I remembered uninstalling KDE also removed
NetworkManager-gnome which borked my laptop until I re-installed the
RPM. That's something that should be fixed.


I believe the documented solution is 'groupremove is bad and does not
usually do what you want', FWIW.



groupremove does exactly what it says it will do - if we need to revisit 
then it'd be nice if we did it in such a way that we don't break everyone 
else.


-sv

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 10/21/2009 10:58 PM, Darryl L. Pierce wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 06:22:04PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
>> IIUC, you're mis-interpreting the YUM output there. NetworkManager-gnome
>> doesn't have a dependancy on KDE, rather it happens to be part of the 
>> "KDE (K Desktop Environment)"  group. ie in doing a 'groupremove'
>> you explicitly asked YUM to remove 'NetworkManager-gnome' since its
>> in that group. If you had just done an package level remove, eg 
>> 'yum remove kde*' then NetworkManager-gnome would not have been removed
> 
> You're correct in that removing the KDE group attempts to remove the
> NetworkManager-gnome rpm. I remembered uninstalling KDE also removed
> NetworkManager-gnome which borked my laptop until I re-installed the
> RPM. That's something that should be fixed.

KDE SIG put that package in their own group since the KDE alternative
isn't working well yet. They can perhaps remove it from the group and
add it the ks file but you wouldn't get NetworkManager goodness in KDE
if you group install or use the DVD to select KDE.

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Charley Wang]

- "Jesse Keating"  wrote:

> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 13:28 -0400, Darryl L. Pierce wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 06:22:04PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> > > IIUC, you're mis-interpreting the YUM output there.
> NetworkManager-gnome
> > > doesn't have a dependancy on KDE, rather it happens to be part of
> the 
> > > "KDE (K Desktop Environment)"  group. ie in doing a 'groupremove'
> > > you explicitly asked YUM to remove 'NetworkManager-gnome' since
> its
> > > in that group. If you had just done an package level remove, eg 
> > > 'yum remove kde*' then NetworkManager-gnome would not have been
> removed
> > 
> > You're correct in that removing the KDE group attempts to remove
> the
> > NetworkManager-gnome rpm. I remembered uninstalling KDE also
> removed
> > NetworkManager-gnome which borked my laptop until I re-installed
> the
> > RPM. That's something that should be fixed.
> 
> 
> Group removals are dangerous.  Groups can share packages between
> them.
> Perhaps somebody should submit a patch to yum that gives groupremove
> a
> flag that says don't remove any package that is listed in any other
> group.
> 

Maybe just a confirmation (i.e: 
"The following packages are also listed in other groups:
superpackage -- awesomegroup, importantgroup
uselesspackage   -- evilgroup
Are you sure you want to remove them? (Y/N)"

?

-Charley


> 
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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Jesse Keating]

On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 13:28 -0400, Darryl L. Pierce wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 06:22:04PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> > IIUC, you're mis-interpreting the YUM output there. NetworkManager-gnome
> > doesn't have a dependancy on KDE, rather it happens to be part of the 
> > "KDE (K Desktop Environment)"  group. ie in doing a 'groupremove'
> > you explicitly asked YUM to remove 'NetworkManager-gnome' since its
> > in that group. If you had just done an package level remove, eg 
> > 'yum remove kde*' then NetworkManager-gnome would not have been removed
> 
> You're correct in that removing the KDE group attempts to remove the
> NetworkManager-gnome rpm. I remembered uninstalling KDE also removed
> NetworkManager-gnome which borked my laptop until I re-installed the
> RPM. That's something that should be fixed.


Group removals are dangerous.  Groups can share packages between them.
Perhaps somebody should submit a patch to yum that gives groupremove a
flag that says don't remove any package that is listed in any other
group.


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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Bill Nottingham]

Darryl L. Pierce (dpie...@redhat.com) said: 
> You're correct in that removing the KDE group attempts to remove the
> NetworkManager-gnome rpm. I remembered uninstalling KDE also removed
> NetworkManager-gnome which borked my laptop until I re-installed the
> RPM. That's something that should be fixed.

I believe the documented solution is 'groupremove is bad and does not
usually do what you want', FWIW.

Bill

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Darryl L. Pierce]

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 06:22:04PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> IIUC, you're mis-interpreting the YUM output there. NetworkManager-gnome
> doesn't have a dependancy on KDE, rather it happens to be part of the 
> "KDE (K Desktop Environment)"  group. ie in doing a 'groupremove'
> you explicitly asked YUM to remove 'NetworkManager-gnome' since its
> in that group. If you had just done an package level remove, eg 
> 'yum remove kde*' then NetworkManager-gnome would not have been removed

You're correct in that removing the KDE group attempts to remove the
NetworkManager-gnome rpm. I remembered uninstalling KDE also removed
NetworkManager-gnome which borked my laptop until I re-installed the
RPM. That's something that should be fixed.

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Daniel P. Berrange]

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 01:08:43PM -0400, Darryl L. Pierce wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:00:13AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 12:58 -0400, Darryl L. Pierce wrote:
> > > 
> > > And you can't uninstall KDE without killing gnome since
> > > NetworkManager-gnome has a dependency on KDE... 
> > 
> > Um, what?  Care to elaborate? 
> 
> http://www.pastebin.org/46726
> 
> If you try to uninstall the "KDE (K Desktop Environment)" group then
> NetworkManager-gnome is marked for deletion as well.

IIUC, you're mis-interpreting the YUM output there. NetworkManager-gnome
doesn't have a dependancy on KDE, rather it happens to be part of the 
"KDE (K Desktop Environment)"  group. ie in doing a 'groupremove'
you explicitly asked YUM to remove 'NetworkManager-gnome' since its
in that group. If you had just done an package level remove, eg 
'yum remove kde*' then NetworkManager-gnome would not have been removed

Regards,
Daniel
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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Darryl L. Pierce]

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:00:13AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 12:58 -0400, Darryl L. Pierce wrote:
> > 
> > And you can't uninstall KDE without killing gnome since
> > NetworkManager-gnome has a dependency on KDE... 
> 
> Um, what?  Care to elaborate? 

http://www.pastebin.org/46726

If you try to uninstall the "KDE (K Desktop Environment)" group then
NetworkManager-gnome is marked for deletion as well.

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Jesse Keating]

On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 12:58 -0400, Darryl L. Pierce wrote:
> 
> And you can't uninstall KDE without killing gnome since
> NetworkManager-gnome has a dependency on KDE... 

Um, what?  Care to elaborate? 

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Darryl L. Pierce]

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:52:49PM -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> I suspect the problem with that is attempting to determine a universal
> concept of 'offensive'. Heck, we might have no-offensive-packages-kde
> that conflicts with 'gnome-*', and no-offensive-packages-gnome...

And you can't uninstall KDE without killing gnome since
NetworkManager-gnome has a dependency on KDE...

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Bill Nottingham]

Eric Springer (erik...@gmail.com) said: 
> > It's probably abusing the system and breaks a million guidelines, but what
> about making a "no-offensive-packages" package that explicitly conflicts
> with a list of offensive packages?

I suspect the problem with that is attempting to determine a universal
concept of 'offensive'. Heck, we might have no-offensive-packages-kde
that conflicts with 'gnome-*', and no-offensive-packages-gnome...

Bill

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Eric Springer]

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Steven James Drinnan wrote:

>
> Well any ideas, for me Package Kit would be the way to go. Then users
> could add the packages or groups to the exclude list. Maybe an extra
> password (optional) for parents / supervisors.
>
> Or like was mentioned  a way to create a YUM exclude list.
>
> Stop this bickering lets try and solve an issue.
>
> Steven
>
>
> It's probably abusing the system and breaks a million guidelines, but what
about making a "no-offensive-packages" package that explicitly conflicts
with a list of offensive packages?
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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Steven James Drinnan]

Wow this has really hit sore point, It just goes to show that there pro
and cons on both sides. 

Like or not people want the ability to filter content that that deem
unfit.


Thats why I asked about it in the first place the concern was simple, I
have young children and I installed a screamingly innocent package. That
had foul language. Some of may not be too concerned but it does put
Fedora's rep in question.



A user/parent/employer should be able to restrict what content is
allowed or not allowed. 

And what is the best way to accomplish this. 

Well any ideas, for me Package Kit would be the way to go. Then users
could add the packages or groups to the exclude list. Maybe an extra
password (optional) for parents / supervisors.

Or like was mentioned  a way to create a YUM exclude list. 

Stop this bickering lets try and solve an issue.

Steven


On Mon, 2009-10-19 at 11:47 +1000, Eric Springer wrote: 
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:39 AM, Ismael Olea  wrote:
> > My 0.02€
> 
> More like your troll-cents. Despite the absurdity (of this whole
> thing, in fact) I've added a category and included it. And people can
> make up their own minds.
> 


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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Steven James Drinnan]

 
On Mon, 2009-10-19 at 12:30 +0200, Josephine Tannhäuser wrote:
> 
> 
> 2009/10/16 Steven James Drinnan 
> I recently installed gestikk. And to my horror one of the
> dialogs said.
> 
> (Check Box) F*** off
> 
> No lie,
> 
> So how does one recommend that this be removed.
> 
> Steven
> 
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> 
> the word fuck is in many sourcecodes. Mostly as comment.
> Do you think, that we should remove these comments too?

Short answer yes, should we as programmers need to use such language.

> 
> Btw. It's harder to see the word "fuck" in some spec-files!
> 
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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Seth Vidal]

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009, Muayyad AlSadi wrote:


https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Offensive_Packages


hahaha! what a bad joke!



This thread needs to stop, too.

If you wish to continue discussing it - please do so off-list.

Thank You,
-sv

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Muayyad AlSadi]

> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Offensive_Packages

hahaha! what a bad joke!

not only you advertise pornography packages

you give conclusions and according to which things you called
"offensive packages" made a pornography packages equivalent to
glorifying  God (minbar package) how cheap

this listing is more silly that my x-proposal
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/InappropriateContents

and as I said before this is nothing but  advertising pornography packages

note: within one work day, I can make an equivalent to gn*ty but with
that very site replaces with one which shows the propaganda of some
group/organization which you might consider  to be terrorist
organization, and then file a package review ticket I want to see how
would you reject it with something that does not apply to gn*ty

sorry to use this fictitious example but this is the only way you are
programmed to accept censorship.

the only thing gn*ty package do is to advertise a single site the only
thing that the site do is to show videos that are illegal in many
places (merely pornography)

yes there are no guidelines in fedora packaging against advertising
and there are no guidelines in fedora packaging against pornography
but the same can be said Nazi propaganda advertising.
or any similar topic

I guess it's the time to remove gn*ty from fedora's repos
no need for censorship, it's just the community as this is the second
long thread about it is made.

one of the four fundamentals  in fedora is Friends ie. the community
ie. us. You and me.

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Matěj Cepl]

Dne 19.10.2009 13:27, Thomas Janssen napsal(a):
> Well, this thread was disputable. But you crossed a line here. Some
> idiots on this planet grab the same statement all the time when they
> run out of arguments. This is not even acceptable as a "tongue in the
> cheek".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law -- you apparently don't know
what we are talking about (or, more likely, I got caught).

Matěj

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Daniel P. Berrange]

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 01:59:50PM +0200, Josephine Tannh?user wrote:
> 2009/10/19 Guido Grazioli 
> 
> > Come on guys, let this thread die.
> > In other words, shut the
> > export YUM_I_LIKE_BAD_WORDS=1 && yum -y install fuck
> > up  ;-)
> 
> 
> f.u.c.k.u.p. the computer of Hagbard Celine?
> My favorite quote about fuck is from southpark - bigger longer uncut:

[snip]

Please stop this now, it has gone way beyond discussing real technical
issues, and is just being gratuitously offensive & thus off-topic for
this list. There are plenty of places on the internet for this. The 
Fedora development list is not one of them.

Regards,
Daniel
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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Josephine Tannhäuser]

2009/10/19 Thomas Janssen 

> Well, this thread was disputable. But you crossed a line here. Some
> idiots on this planet grab the same statement all the time when they
> run out of arguments. This is not even acceptable as a "tongue in the
> cheek". 
>

+1

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Thomas Janssen]

2009/10/19 Ismael Olea :
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Josephine Tannhäuser
>  wrote:
>>
>> btw. I'm still missing Godwin's Law. It's a must for stupid
>> nonsense-discussions, but I'm not missing it!
>
> 
> So, you are acting clearly as a Nazi!
> 

Well, this thread was disputable. But you crossed a line here. Some
idiots on this planet grab the same statement all the time when they
run out of arguments. This is not even acceptable as a "tongue in the
cheek".

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Josephine Tannhäuser]

OMG
Even 4chan is funnier than you
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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Ismael Olea]

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Josephine Tannhäuser <
josephine.tannhau...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> btw. I'm still missing Godwin's Law. It's a must for stupid
> nonsense-discussions, but I'm not missing it!



So, you are acting clearly as a Nazi!


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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Josephine Tannhäuser]

2009/10/19 Yaakov Nemoy 

> This is really a stupid thread.
>

Of course! But who is the stupid?
The one who started this thread or those  who answered it or those who
wasting so much time to discuss about nonsense?

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Yaakov Nemoy]

2009/10/19 Josephine Tannhäuser :
>
>
> 2009/10/16 Steven James Drinnan 
>>
>> I recently installed gestikk. And to my horror one of the dialogs said.
>>
>> (Check Box) F*** off
>>
>> No lie,
>>
>> So how does one recommend that this be removed.
>>
>> Steven
>>
>> --
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>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
>
> the word fuck is in many sourcecodes. Mostly as comment.
> Do you think, that we should remove these comments too?
>
> Btw. It's harder to see the word "fuck" in some spec-files!

I think brainfuck is a fine language, and if you do some swear word
statistics on the Fedora wiki, you can see my appreciation for
brainfuck.

Do we block it because of some trolling?

This is really a stupid thread.

-Yaakov

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Matěj Cepl]

Dne 19.10.2009 02:39, Ismael Olea napsal(a):
> bibletime.i586 : BibleTime is an easy to use Bible study tool for KDE
> gnomesword.i586 : GNOME-based Bible research tool
> kio_sword.i586 : A lightweight frontend for the Sword Bible project for KDE
> sword.i586 : Free Bible Software Project
> sword-devel.i586 : Development files for the sword project
> xiphos.i586 : Bible study and research tool
> 
> Maybe some parents would like to keep their children apart of contents
> like these.

Let's not go into comparing mental illness with Bibles (and any replies
which will try to do so, go mercilessly to /dev/null). For purposes of
our discussion what's material is that neither sword-derived programs
nor gnaughty bring any content (there are no Bibles in all those
packages, you have to download them from the Sword website), so any
discussion about that are pure loss.

Matěj

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Eric Springer]

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:39 AM, Ismael Olea  wrote:
> My 0.02€

More like your troll-cents. Despite the absurdity (of this whole
thing, in fact) I've added a category and included it. And people can
make up their own minds.

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Ismael Olea]

> Maybe this could be added as a feature in future releases -  there may
> not be many packages that need to be added but it would give a big group
> of users some peace of mind.

IMHO if this kind of feature is accepted would be needed to do in other
cases, for example about religion. In a fast search:

bibletime.i586 : BibleTime is an easy to use Bible study tool for KDE
gnomesword.i586 : GNOME-based Bible research tool
kio_sword.i586 : A lightweight frontend for the Sword Bible project for KDE
sword.i586 : Free Bible Software Project
sword-devel.i586 : Development files for the sword project
xiphos.i586 : Bible study and research tool

Maybe some parents would like to keep their children apart of contents like
these.

My 0.02€


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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Steven James Drinnan]

On Mon, 2009-10-19 at 09:35 +1000, Eric Springer wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Steven James Drinnan  wrote:
> > I recently installed gestikk. And to my horror one of the dialogs said.
> 
> Not sure if it's the best road to take, how ever I've created a page
> in the wiki (that can be edited mercilessly or deleted if you think
> it'll just attract attention):
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Offensive_Packages
> 

A good start, yes I agree that fedora is about freedom and choice. For
me this seems a good option ( having an exclude function for offensive
packages). Making this part of package kit would be good. Almost like a
parental control system for software. 

I do think as distributor it is good to be family friendly as possible.

Maybe this could be added as a feature in future releases -  there may
not be many packages that need to be added but it would give a big group
of users some peace of mind.

Steven Drinnan


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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Eric Springer]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Steven James Drinnan  wrote:
> I recently installed gestikk. And to my horror one of the dialogs said.

Not sure if it's the best road to take, how ever I've created a page
in the wiki (that can be edited mercilessly or deleted if you think
it'll just attract attention):

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Offensive_Packages

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Adam Williamson]

On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 03:28 +0200, Guido Grazioli wrote:

> I didnt say i find profanity not offensive; also, i strongly agree
> with your
> point (*when* wouldnt profanity be considered gratuitous?).
> 
> My question was, would you call that patch a "bugfix", or
> "enhancement"?
> Or it is just like the beep over a bad word on tv, and by all means
> you can
> do that thanks to gpl?

I wouldn't spend any time worrying about terminology when it's clearly a
case of improving the work that Fedora does.

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 10/17/2009 06:58 AM, Guido Grazioli wrote:

> My question was, would you call that patch a "bugfix", or  "enhancement"?
> Or it is just like the beep over a bad word on tv, and by all means you can
> do that thanks to gpl?

In this case, since the wording has already been fixed upstream, it
would be a backported bug fix and any free and open source license would
allow that freedom. Not just GPL.

Rahul

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Guido Grazioli]

2009/10/17 Adam Williamson 

> On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 01:09 +0200, Guido Grazioli wrote:
> > Is GPL really a way to freely censor a developer work, as in this
> > case?
> > If it were closed source, you wouldn't had the right to do that.
> >
> > That string is more stupid than offensive; and the escalation found
>
> There are people who find profanity genuinely offensive. Dealing with it
> is a matter of balance; it's obviously intolerable to try and ban it
> entirely, but I think it's an equally bad idea to try and argue that,
> because _you_ find the concept of bad language being offensive absurd,
> it's completely okay to use it entirely gratuitously when you have a
> reasonable chance of offending people who disagree.
>
> In other words, as others have said, since this use of profanity is
> entirely gratuitous - it's not necessary or valuable in any way
> whatsoever - it's a perfectly reasonable choice to patch it out.
>
>
I didnt say i find profanity not offensive; also, i strongly agree with your
point (*when* wouldnt profanity be considered gratuitous?).

My question was, would you call that patch a "bugfix", or  "enhancement"?
Or it is just like the beep over a bad word on tv, and by all means you can
do that thanks to gpl?



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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Adam Williamson]

On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 01:09 +0200, Guido Grazioli wrote:
> Is GPL really a way to freely censor a developer work, as in this
> case?
> If it were closed source, you wouldn't had the right to do that.
> 
> That string is more stupid than offensive; and the escalation found 

There are people who find profanity genuinely offensive. Dealing with it
is a matter of balance; it's obviously intolerable to try and ban it
entirely, but I think it's an equally bad idea to try and argue that,
because _you_ find the concept of bad language being offensive absurd,
it's completely okay to use it entirely gratuitously when you have a
reasonable chance of offending people who disagree.

In other words, as others have said, since this use of profanity is
entirely gratuitous - it's not necessary or valuable in any way
whatsoever - it's a perfectly reasonable choice to patch it out.

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Guido Grazioli]

Is GPL really a way to freely censor a developer work, as in this case?
If it were closed source, you wouldn't had the right to do that.

That string is more stupid than offensive; and the escalation found here,
starting from the word fuck to things like sexism, racism and tolerance
probably was more appropriate on slashdot (or better, nowhere)

Just my honest opinion
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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Haïkel Guémar]

Just to make it clear, I just don't care about gnaughty presence or not
in repositories. I'm not a Debian freak, you know :)


I'm just worried that we might burden package maintainers with
additional, boring and mostly useless censorship tasks. First, optional,
then mandatory.
Erm, if we were to take care about rude language, we might need to patch
some Fedora maintainers too, though it would make things much less
entertaining.

To finish with gnaughty, we do have some underaged Fedora users. The
youngest, I ever met at an event was 12 yo (and he did install himself
his Fedora!). I don't think that parents would agree about distributing
such stuff.
My opinion is parents should monitor their kids, not Fedora guys, but
implementing some kind of filter as a yum or a PackageKit plugin might
help them. But this is another discussion.

H.

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Todd Zullinger]

Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> * I volunteered to make the patch if the maintainer didn't want to do it.
>   (And then perhaps I can talk the reporter into submitting hte patch
>   upstream for me ;-) So this takes part of the time burden away.

You might not even have to.  I think, from only a little poking, that
the current code in brz has already removed this string.  Of course,
that code might not be stable so updating to a development checkout
might not be an option.  I didn't look much further as a) I don't use
gestikk and b) I don't know bzr well enough to be able to quickly
compare the branches to see how significant the changes are.

The code is at: https://launchpad.net/gestikk if anyone wants to poke
at it.

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Toshio Kuratomi]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:29:46PM +0200, Haïkel Guémar wrote:
> Le 16/10/2009 19:19, Toshio Kuratomi a écrit :
> > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:58:39PM +0800, Steven James Drinnan wrote:
> >> I recently installed gestikk. And to my horror one of the dialogs said.
> >>
> >> (Check Box) F*** off 
> >>
> >> No lie, 
> >>
> >> So how does one recommend that this be removed.
> >>
> > What we'll probably do is patch the code to have a less obscene and more
> > helpful dialog.  To get that done, submit a bug on::
> >   https://bugzilla.redhat.com/
> > 
> > with what to click on to get the offending dialog to pop up.
> > That will get the maintainer's attention and they'll be able to deal with
> > it. If you don't get a response for some reason (maintainer on vacation,
> > etc), feel free to CC my email address and I'll take a look at creating a
> > patch.
> > 
> > -Toshio
> > 
> 
> I recently came accross Gnaughty (aka Fast and Easy Porn Downloader),
> I'm seriously thinking to file a ticket against it. It can be used to
> download p0rn, yuck !
> What sort of content should we provide as replacement ?
> 
> Is this a joke ? On the one hand, we provide gnaughty, on the other
> hand, we are seriously thinking patching Gestikk for the use of the
> F-U-C-K word in an obscure dialog. Non coherent, either throw gnaughty
> away and patch Gestikk, or just let it be.
> 
Well -- this is different in two ways:
1) gnaughty's purpose is to download porn.  Getting rid of its ability to
download porn makes it pretty useless.  gestikk's purpose is to enable mouse
gestures on multiple window managers.  If we rid of the "Fuck off" string
it's still able to perform its activities.

2) Removing gnaughty from the distribution prevents people who want to use
it from being able to use the program.  Removing the string in the glade
file of gestikk does not impact their ability to use the program.

3) gnaughty's description reads: "Application to download automatically
adult sex content, i.e. movies and : pictures, from a known internet
directory".  gestikk's description does not inform the user that language
unsafe for making a good impression on the boss to see is held in the
program.

4) if someone installs gnaughty and clicks on the menu entry, they
immediately realize that it's retrieving pornography and they would be wise
not to show that particular program to their parents, kids, or coworkers.
If someone installs gestikk they will get a program that seems inocuous
enough until someone forgets to click on Apply before closing the
configuraiton dialog (and apparently, only with certain values even then).


> It's not really that offensive (sexist, racist, homophobic etc...), it's
> not installed by default so it won't hurt our image. Anyone offended
> should go complain to upstream, Fedora maintainers have no time to waste
> on such petty issues.
> If you don't like it, don't yum it first.

I disagree on several counts.  Most relevant first:

* This is a problem that a Fedora maintainer should hear about.  The Fedora
  maintainer may choose to spend time on it or may choose to send it
  upstream.  This may be related to time or may be related to how they feel
  about non-professional language.  This is a maintainer's choice.
* I volunteered to make the patch if the maintainer didn't want to do it.
  (And then perhaps I can talk the reporter into submitting hte patch
  upstream for me ;-) So this takes part of the time burden away.
* I agree this isn't in the same realm as overt racism, sexism, homophobism,
  etc.  It's more in the realm of unproffessionalism.  If our users can't
  tell that they could be showing a coworker or their parents how to use
  this program and how they use it that particular time shows something
  that gives the viewer a lower opinion of Fedora then we are failing.
* People need to be informed that this language exists in the program if we
  expect them to make the choice to not yum install it.  Rather than
  labeling all of our software safe/not safe for work we should simply make
  it safe when it's an easy change like this.

-Toshio


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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Mary Ellen Foster]

2009/10/16 Haïkel Guémar :
> Le 16/10/2009 19:19, Toshio Kuratomi a écrit :
>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:58:39PM +0800, Steven James Drinnan wrote:
>>> I recently installed gestikk. And to my horror one of the dialogs said.
>>>
>>> (Check Box) F*** off
>
> I recently came accross Gnaughty (aka Fast and Easy Porn Downloader),
> I'm seriously thinking to file a ticket against it. It can be used to
> download p0rn, yuck !
> What sort of content should we provide as replacement ?
>
> Is this a joke ? On the one hand, we provide gnaughty, on the other
> hand, we are seriously thinking patching Gestikk for the use of the
> F-U-C-K word in an obscure dialog. Non coherent, either throw gnaughty
> away and patch Gestikk, or just let it be.
>
> It's not really that offensive (sexist, racist, homophobic etc...), it's
> not installed by default so it won't hurt our image. Anyone offended
> should go complain to upstream, Fedora maintainers have no time to waste
> on such petty issues.
> If you don't like it, don't yum it first.

I disagree with that last line -- on the one hand, people installing
gnaughty presumable know what they're installing, but "if you don't
like it, don't yum it" doesn't really apply to apparently mainstream
apps that unexpectedly swear at you.

I wouldn't advocate the app being removed from Fedora or anything, but
I do think things like this are inappropriate and should be patched by
the maintainer.

MEF

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Dr. Diesel]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Haïkel Guémar  wrote:

>
>
> It's not really that offensive (sexist, racist, homophobic etc...), it's
> not installed by default so it won't hurt our image. Anyone offended
> should go complain to upstream, Fedora maintainers have no time to waste
> on such petty issues.
> If you don't like it, don't yum it first.
>
> H.
>

+1, best said yet.


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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Haïkel Guémar]

Le 16/10/2009 19:19, Toshio Kuratomi a écrit :
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:58:39PM +0800, Steven James Drinnan wrote:
>> I recently installed gestikk. And to my horror one of the dialogs said.
>>
>> (Check Box) F*** off 
>>
>> No lie, 
>>
>> So how does one recommend that this be removed.
>>
> What we'll probably do is patch the code to have a less obscene and more
> helpful dialog.  To get that done, submit a bug on::
>   https://bugzilla.redhat.com/
> 
> with what to click on to get the offending dialog to pop up.
> That will get the maintainer's attention and they'll be able to deal with
> it. If you don't get a response for some reason (maintainer on vacation,
> etc), feel free to CC my email address and I'll take a look at creating a
> patch.
> 
> -Toshio
> 

I recently came accross Gnaughty (aka Fast and Easy Porn Downloader),
I'm seriously thinking to file a ticket against it. It can be used to
download p0rn, yuck !
What sort of content should we provide as replacement ?

Is this a joke ? On the one hand, we provide gnaughty, on the other
hand, we are seriously thinking patching Gestikk for the use of the
F-U-C-K word in an obscure dialog. Non coherent, either throw gnaughty
away and patch Gestikk, or just let it be.

It's not really that offensive (sexist, racist, homophobic etc...), it's
not installed by default so it won't hurt our image. Anyone offended
should go complain to upstream, Fedora maintainers have no time to waste
on such petty issues.
If you don't like it, don't yum it first.

H.



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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Seth Vidal]

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009, Kevin Kofler wrote:


Steven James Drinnan wrote:

But my point was the image of Fedora.Does Fedora want be associated with
software vendors that use this type of language?


Why the fuck would we not? Is there something fucking wrong with the word
"fuck"? Let's just fucking stop this fucking "politically correct" nonsense,
fuck!



 Kevin, chill out.



-sv

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Kevin Kofler]

Steven James Drinnan wrote:
> But my point was the image of Fedora.Does Fedora want be associated with
> software vendors that use this type of language?

Why the fuck would we not? Is there something fucking wrong with the word 
"fuck"? Let's just fucking stop this fucking "politically correct" nonsense, 
fuck!

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Toshio Kuratomi]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:58:39PM +0800, Steven James Drinnan wrote:
> I recently installed gestikk. And to my horror one of the dialogs said.
> 
> (Check Box) F*** off 
> 
> No lie, 
> 
> So how does one recommend that this be removed.
> 
What we'll probably do is patch the code to have a less obscene and more
helpful dialog.  To get that done, submit a bug on::
  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/

with what to click on to get the offending dialog to pop up.
That will get the maintainer's attention and they'll be able to deal with
it. If you don't get a response for some reason (maintainer on vacation,
etc), feel free to CC my email address and I'll take a look at creating a
patch.

-Toshio


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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Bill Nottingham]

Steven James Drinnan (ste...@scc.hk) said: 
> I will file  a ticket.
> 
> But my point was the image of Fedora.Does Fedora want be associated with
> software vendors that use this type of language?

There are worse things in the package collection, alas, depending on your
point of view.

In any case, gestikk is not installed by default, and is not listed in a group
to be selected in the GUI. If upstream maintains this sort of attitude
towards the strings they ship, I'm fairly sure it never will be installed by
default.

Bill

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Till Maas]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 01:10:09PM +0400, Peter Lemenkov wrote:
> 2009/10/16 Rahul Sundaram :
> > On 10/16/2009 02:29 PM, Peter Lemenkov wrote:
> >
> >> You see, I personally prefer to live in the society with some level of
> >> aggressively thinking and speaking minorities, rather than in dark
> >> ages of censorship, brainwashing and hypocrisy.
> 
> > You seem to be equating "aggressive thinking" with sexism and racism and
> > censorship with a requirement for civil and decent behaviour in
> > communities.
> 
> Civil and decent behavior is to be tolerant to others, right? So,
> please, be tolerant to sexists/racists/-ists.

Being tolerant does not mean to support or accept intolerant behaviour,
but not to discriminate against them because of their sex, race or other
characteristics. Nobody here is suggesting that racists or sexists
should be discriminated against because of their sex or race. But it
does not mean that their intolerant behaviour will be accepted.

Also racism and sexism do not contradict to censorship and brainwashing
but they support each other.

Nevertheless, if you prefer a racist and sexist environment, you are
wrong here in the Fedora Project.

Regards
Till


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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 10/16/2009 02:40 PM, Peter Lemenkov wrote:

> Civil and decent behavior is to be tolerant to others, right? So,
> please, be tolerant to sexists/racists/-ists.

Quite the opposite. You are really confused about what being civil and
decent actually means. If someone is being sexist or racist towards
others, NOT tolerating it is decent behaviour.

Rahul

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Peter Lemenkov]

2009/10/16 Rahul Sundaram :
> On 10/16/2009 02:29 PM, Peter Lemenkov wrote:
>
>> You see, I personally prefer to live in the society with some level of
>> aggressively thinking and speaking minorities, rather than in dark
>> ages of censorship, brainwashing and hypocrisy.

> You seem to be equating "aggressive thinking" with sexism and racism and
> censorship with a requirement for civil and decent behaviour in
> communities.

Civil and decent behavior is to be tolerant to others, right? So,
please, be tolerant to sexists/racists/-ists.

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 10/16/2009 02:29 PM, Peter Lemenkov wrote:

> You see, I personally prefer to live in the society with some level of
> aggressively thinking and speaking minorities, rather than in dark
> ages of censorship, brainwashing and hypocrisy.

You seem to be equating "aggressive thinking" with sexism and racism and
censorship with a requirement for civil and decent behaviour in
communities.

Rahul

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Peter Lemenkov]

2009/10/16 Till Maas :

> You may also want to think about whether you really find it great that
> there's sexism on the internet, because you might have confused it with
> sexual content.

No, I meant sexism. I thought, that sexism is modern trend nowadays,
since almost every OSS-related rss-feed is full of "Sexism in OSS"
articles.

And yes, I forgot about racism, also.

You see, I personally prefer to live in the society with some level of
aggressively thinking and speaking minorities, rather than in dark
ages of censorship, brainwashing and hypocrisy.

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Till Maas]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:48:24AM +0400, Peter Lemenkov wrote:

> Please, disconnect yourself from the Internet asap, because it's full
> of obscene videos, jokes, sexism and so on. And that's great!

Even if something is on the internet, this does not meant that it has a
place within the Fedora Community or Collection. Somewhere in the wiki,
there is also some information about this hidden iirc. Especially sexism
or obscenity does not have its place within Fedora, as well as racism
and discrimination against anything at all.

You may also want to think about whether you really find it great that
there's sexism on the internet, because you might have confused it with
sexual content.

From Wikipedia[0], the free encyclopedia:

| Sexism, a term coined in the mid-20th century,[1] is the belief or
| attitude that one gender or sex is inferior to, less competent, or less
| valuable than the other.

I don't think it's great, that there is sexism anywhere.

Regards
Till

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism


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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Peter Lemenkov]

2009/10/16 Steven James Drinnan :
> I will file  a ticket.
>
> But my point was the image of Fedora.Does Fedora want be associated with
> software vendors that use this type of language?

Please, disconnect yourself from the Internet asap, because it's full
of obscene videos, jokes, sexism and so on. And that's great!

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Conrad Meyer]

On Thursday 15 October 2009 11:39:26 pm Steven James Drinnan wrote:
> I will file  a ticket.
> 
> But my point was the image of Fedora.Does Fedora want be associated with
> software vendors that use this type of language?
> 
> Steven

Absolutely! As long as the software is good, I don't care what kind of 
language they use.

Best regards,
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Conrad Meyer 

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 10/16/2009 12:09 PM, Steven James Drinnan wrote:
> I will file  a ticket.
> 
> But my point was the image of Fedora.Does Fedora want be associated with
> software vendors that use this type of language?

They aren't usually vendors. They are usually just hobbyists. It would
be good to highlight such issues when they occur however. Thanks for
that.  We have removed some software in the extreme cases (screensavers
scrapping random images off the net which accidentally ends up showing
adult images in office workspaces for example) due to similar problems
but usually it is not necessary.

Rahul

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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Steven James Drinnan]

I will file  a ticket.

But my point was the image of Fedora.Does Fedora want be associated with
software vendors that use this type of language?

Steven


On Fri, 2009-10-16 at 07:31 +0200, Haïkel Guémar wrote:
> Le 16/10/2009 06:58, Steven James Drinnan a écrit :
> > I recently installed gestikk. And to my horror one of the dialogs said.
> > 
> > (Check Box) F*** off 
> > 
> > No lie, 
> > 
> > So how does one recommend that this be removed.
> > 
> > Steven
> > 
> 
> File a ticket upstream.
> The string itself is in the .glade file, since it's a translatable
> string, removing it brutally would not be wise. Anyway, it seems to
> entertain most gestikk users. :)
> 
> H.
> 


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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Steven James Drinnan]

I will file  a ticket.

But my point was the image of Fedora.Does Fedora want be associated with
software vendors that use this type of language?

Steven


On Fri, 2009-10-16 at 07:31 +0200, Haïkel Guémar wrote:
> Le 16/10/2009 06:58, Steven James Drinnan a écrit :
> > I recently installed gestikk. And to my horror one of the dialogs said.
> > 
> > (Check Box) F*** off 
> > 
> > No lie, 
> > 
> > So how does one recommend that this be removed.
> > 
> > Steven
> > 
> 
> File a ticket upstream.
> The string itself is in the .glade file, since it's a translatable
> string, removing it brutally would not be wise. Anyway, it seems to
> entertain most gestikk users. :)
> 
> H.
> 


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Re: Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Haïkel Guémar]

Le 16/10/2009 06:58, Steven James Drinnan a écrit :
> I recently installed gestikk. And to my horror one of the dialogs said.
> 
> (Check Box) F*** off 
> 
> No lie, 
> 
> So how does one recommend that this be removed.
> 
> Steven
> 

File a ticket upstream.
The string itself is in the .glade file, since it's a translatable
string, removing it brutally would not be wise. Anyway, it seems to
entertain most gestikk users. :)

H.

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Who do I send to get a package removed because of bad language.

[Steven James Drinnan]

I recently installed gestikk. And to my horror one of the dialogs said.

(Check Box) F*** off 

No lie, 

So how does one recommend that this be removed.

Steven


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