Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Gene Heskett wrote: I've been with redhat/fedora for a bit over 10 years now for my main machine. When F8 support ends, I think that will be grounds for a divorce. I'm tired of the "keep the good stuff on the other side of the pond for legal reasons" BS that is endlessly repeated from Research Triangle Park. Why the hell should we be 2nd class citizens? This "issue" has been discussed ad nauseum on this list. What is your solution? Does Red Hat allow the Fedora Project to include all the bits and subject themselves to litigation? Not include anything related to multimedia? Point their users to places to pick things up...and subject themselves to litigation? It sounds like Fedora doesn't meet your needs. If that is the case, then it is OK to move. I seriously doubt Red Hat will change its position for you...unless you offer to pay any and all legal fees as well as all judgments against them. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Gene Heskett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > I've been with redhat/fedora for a bit over 10 years now for my main > machine. > When F8 support ends, I think that will be grounds for a divorce. I'm > tired > of the "keep the good stuff on the other side of the pond for legal > reasons" > BS that is endlessly repeated from Research Triangle Park. Why the hell > should we be 2nd class citizens? > Do you have the time to actively maintain a fork of ffmpeg that uses a mature runtime detectable plugin framework that allows us to separate out specifically encumbered bits from the bits of ffmpeg that we can ship? Because that is exactly what its going to take. A lot of applications sit on top of ffmpeg and ffmpeg is structured that you have to make compile time choices as to what sort of functionality it exposes. We could include a crippled ffmpeg stack and the applications which make use of it that let us work with a subset of codecs but because of ffmpeg's lack of runtime functionality detection..those applications could not be supplimented with additional codec support via plugins from elsewhere. So as a result we dont include anything which needs ffmpeg as a build time dependancy, because we have been reluctant to provide cut down applications which can not be supplimented with plugins for additional functionality. Sucks.. but the ffmpeg developers made a framework chose that is incredibly inflexible. Unlike xine...unlike gstreamer. If you want mature video editting in Fedora..support new application codebases which make use of gstreamer as a framework and do not directly relying on ffmpeg. pitivi could use some solid developer love. -jef -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: >On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Gene Heskett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: >> I've been with redhat/fedora for a bit over 10 years now for my main >> machine. >> When F8 support ends, I think that will be grounds for a divorce. I'm >> tired >> of the "keep the good stuff on the other side of the pond for legal >> reasons" >> BS that is endlessly repeated from Research Triangle Park. Why the hell >> should we be 2nd class citizens? > >Do you have the time to actively maintain a fork of ffmpeg that uses a >mature runtime detectable plugin framework that allows us to separate out >specifically encumbered bits from the bits of ffmpeg that we can ship? >Because that is exactly what its going to take. > >A lot of applications sit on top of ffmpeg and ffmpeg is structured that you >have to make compile time choices as to what sort of functionality it >exposes. We could include a crippled ffmpeg stack and the applications which >make use of it that let us work with a subset of codecs but because of >ffmpeg's lack of runtime functionality detection..those applications could >not be supplimented with additional codec support via plugins from >elsewhere. > >So as a result we dont include anything which needs ffmpeg as a build time >dependancy, because we have been reluctant to provide cut down applications >which can not be supplimented with plugins for additional functionality. > >Sucks.. but the ffmpeg developers made a framework chose that is incredibly >inflexible. I wasn't aware of that aspect of it. >Unlike xine...unlike gstreamer. If you want mature video editting in >Fedora..support new application codebases which make use of gstreamer as a >framework and do not directly relying on ffmpeg. pitivi could use some solid >developer love. Can gstreamer do what an offshore ffmpeg can? I think not, regardless of how much better it can handle plugins, you would still be removing those bits that actually make it work. Also, gstreamer, which might be somebodies pet for all I know, seems to do weird things that require a tap on the reset button here, so AFAIAC, its not ready for prime time either. Whats a 'pitivi'? >-jef Thanks Jef -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) I find this corpse guilty of carrying a concealed weapon and I fine it $40. -- Judge Roy Bean, finding a pistol and $40 on a man he'd just shot. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
> Greetings; > > Why is it that every decent multimedia production tool > always requires stuff > to build its tarball that is not part of the fedora > repositories? > > I have now failed for the second time to build a video > editing application > that is compatible with the camera I have, and the > multimedia build tools > available for fedora. Most recently, kino, which FWIW I > had running > flawlessly on FC2. > > 2 weeks ago I gave up building OpenMovieEditor for the same > reason, its > dependencies simply cannot be satisfied on an F8 system. > > Here is the exit stanza for a 'make' in the kino > src tree, most recent > release: > > In file included from dvtitler.cc:32: > ../frame.h:51:35: error: libavcodec/avcodec.h: No such file > or directory > ../frame.h:52:37: error: libavformat/avformat.h: No such > file or directory > ../frame.h:54:35: error: libswscale/swscale.h: No such file > or directory > ../frame.h:111: error: ISO C++ forbids declaration of > ‘AVCodecContext’ with no > type > ../frame.h:111: error: expected ‘;’ before ‘*’ > token > make[3]: *** [dvtitler.lo] Error 1 > make[3]: Leaving directory > `/usr/src/kino-1.3.1/src/dvtitler' > make[2]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 > make[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/src/kino-1.3.1/src' > make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 > make[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/src/kino-1.3.1' > make: *** [all] Error 2 > > Those files are similar to the failure of OpenMovieEditor, > which if I could > build, I might be able to use, but I still need kino to > manage the video > importation from my camera, which has a firewire port and > handles video in > real time, something that I don't believe > OpenMovieEditor can manage. > > I've been with redhat/fedora for a bit over 10 years > now for my main machine. > When F8 support ends, I think that will be grounds for a > divorce. I'm tired > of the "keep the good stuff on the other side of the > pond for legal reasons" > BS that is endlessly repeated from Research Triangle Park. > Why the hell > should we be 2nd class citizens? > > -- > Cheers, Gene > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of > liberty: > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that > order." > -Ed Howdershelt (Author) > The difference between a career and a job is about 20 hours > a week. > > -- This is the same stuff/error that kills vlc from building when compiling from source. It asked for ffmpeg, I got that and installed it, it then complains about ffmeg-devel and I get it and install it and it still complains about not having it. I know I can get vlc from livna and I have done that, but I wanted to build it from source so I can easily update, but it does not work :( Try to install it via yum. Enable livna or freshrpms and install it from there. I guess it might be the best way? Regards, Antonio -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Gene Heskett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > Can gstreamer do what an offshore ffmpeg can? ffmpeg can do a lot that is not directly tied to a specific encumbered encoding. All libraries end up decoding the encumbered formats and using some sort of internal representation of the stream that is useful to work with as a raw data source. Video editting does not strictly require encumbered crap. If we had the video editting application such as kino in the distro...we could edit raw dv from camcorders into quite usable compress theora videos. Sadly kino relies on ffmpg to do this. So I could rip out the encumbered bits from ffmpeg, include that as a package..and then package kino to use it. In fact I personally have such a package, but I haven't submitted any of it for inclusion..because including that sort of thing would mean that the users of that package could not add support for other codecs to use with kino. They'd be stuck with my crippled ffmpeg and thus a crippled kino. And it would be marginally harder for them to install a fully functional kino once my package was available. 3rd party repos which provide a fully functional ffmpeg and kino would have to bend over backwards to work around my 'crippled' ffmpeg stack. And as much as I want to make useful video production tools available in distro..I don't want to make work harder for the maintainers and users of those 3rd party repsotiories. All of this because ffmpeg doesn't deal with plugin technology at any level. Unlike xine... unlike gstreamer. > I think not, regardless of how > much better it can handle plugins, you would still be removing those bits infinitely better support...since ffmpeg has no support at all for runtime detection of codec support. c'mon even windows media player's framework lets you add codec support as plugins doesn't it? > > that actually make it work. Also, gstreamer, which might be somebodies pet > for all I know, seems to do weird things that require a tap on the reset > button here, so AFAIAC, its not ready for prime time either. > > Whats a 'pitivi'? > I suggest you make an effort to read up on gstreamer and the applications which are attempting to make use of it. gst is already pretty deeply integrated into the default gnome application stack. You are probably making use of the framework without knowing it already. If you want to work on a technical solution towards better video production tools in Fedora, gstreamer's pretty much the only framework that's flexible enough to build on with out running directly into legal issues to get anything in at all. Pitivi is a simple non-linear editor that is in distro right now, but it needs some love. There are several of music sequencing applications based on gst, and there are some reasonably good video playback applictions out there, even video streaming and capturing apps... but the one thing that is really unexplored is video editing. If all you want to do is get mad and shake your first in the air and march around in a little circle beating your chest at the fact that we are cautious about legal issues..including patently unreasonable things..like software patents...I guess I can't stop you..but you should know...you look really funny doing it... and its not helpful. You want to be helpful? Work towards getting a mature video editting app on this list: http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/apps/ If we can get that done, that would go a long way. -jef -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote: [...] > >This is the same stuff/error that kills vlc from building when compiling > from source. It asked for ffmpeg, I got that and installed it, it then > complains about ffmeg-devel and I get it and install it and it still > complains about not having it. I know I can get vlc from livna and I have > done that, but I wanted to build it from source so I can easily update, but > it does not work :( > >Try to install it via yum. Enable livna or freshrpms and install it from > there. I guess it might be the best way? > Dunno about freshrpms, but livna's versions of kino are very long in the tooth. >Regards, > >Antonio Thanks Antonio. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Youth doesn't excuse everything. -- Dr. Janice Lester (in Kirk's body), "Turnabout Intruder", stardate 5928.5. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Dunno about freshrpms, but livna's versions of kino are very long in the > tooth. > dude... they just release 1.3.1 this week... livna has 1.3.0 which was the last release in like feb. Do you even keep up with kino development? I talked to the kino developer last november...at that point in time he considered kino development as done...and did not expect to see much more in the way of new exciting development with kino. He's keeping it maintained just so it basically keeps working as it is. Adding an additional default export script or adding contributed translations are pretty minor advancements. I actually worked with him to create an ogg theora exporter that uses gstreamer, instead of ffmpeg prior to the 1.3.0 release in Feb. -jef -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: >On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Gene Heskett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: >> Can gstreamer do what an offshore ffmpeg can? > >ffmpeg can do a lot that is not directly tied to a specific encumbered >encoding. All libraries end up decoding the encumbered formats and using >some sort of internal representation of the stream that is useful to work >with as a raw data source. Video editting does not strictly require >encumbered crap. If we had the video editting application such as kino in >the distro...we could edit raw dv from camcorders into quite usable compress >theora videos. > >Sadly kino relies on ffmpg to do this. So I could rip out the encumbered >bits from ffmpeg, include that as a package..and then package kino to use >it. In fact I personally have such a package, but I haven't submitted any of >it for inclusion..because including that sort of thing would mean that the >users of that package could not add support for other codecs to use with >kino. They'd be stuck with my crippled ffmpeg and thus a crippled kino. And >it would be marginally harder for them to install a fully functional kino >once my package was available. 3rd party repos which provide a fully >functional ffmpeg and kino would have to bend over backwards to work around >my 'crippled' ffmpeg stack. And as much as I want to make useful video >production tools available in distro..I don't want to make work harder for >the maintainers and users of those 3rd party repsotiories. > >All of this because ffmpeg doesn't deal with plugin technology at any level. >Unlike xine... unlike gstreamer. > >> I think not, regardless of how >> much better it can handle plugins, you would still be removing those bits > >infinitely better support...since ffmpeg has no support at all for runtime >detection of codec support. c'mon even windows media player's framework >lets you add codec support as plugins doesn't it? > >> that actually make it work. Also, gstreamer, which might be somebodies >> pet for all I know, seems to do weird things that require a tap on the >> reset button here, so AFAIAC, its not ready for prime time either. >> >> Whats a 'pitivi'? > >I suggest you make an effort to read up on gstreamer and the applications >which are attempting to make use of it. gst is already pretty deeply >integrated into the default gnome application stack. You are probably making >use of the framework without knowing it already. > >If you want to work on a technical solution towards better video production >tools in Fedora, gstreamer's pretty much the only framework that's flexible >enough to build on with out running directly into legal issues to get >anything in at all. > >Pitivi is a simple non-linear editor that is in distro right now, but it >needs some love. There are several of music sequencing applications based >on gst, and there are some reasonably good video playback applictions out >there, even video streaming and capturing apps... but the one thing that is >really unexplored is video editing. > >If all you want to do is get mad and shake your first in the air and march >around in a little circle beating your chest at the fact that we are >cautious about legal issues..including patently unreasonable things..like >software patents...I guess I can't stop you..but you should know...you look >really funny doing it... and its not helpful. > I wasn't trying to be funny, Jef. In fact, since I've got sugar and am several years the far side of 70 already, only a masochist would enjoy watching that. But I am a great believer in making things work the way I want them to work, and going to an offshore distro seems to me to be the most efficient use of my remaining time. I need it to work now, not at some point in an indefinitely measured future. That's all that has ever been promised, and there have been 2 or 3 multimedia editors marched in as being the current version of kitten britches since FC2 & a kino that worked, and each has fallen by the wayside. It seems the coders can come up with a pretty face & nothing behind it, or difficult to use cli tools, and never the twain shall meet under US law. >You want to be helpful? Work towards getting a mature video editting app on >this list: >http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/apps/ > >If we can get that done, that would go a long way. My days of giving code a bunch of much needed TLC were 15 years ago, and about 56 bits narrower a data bus. Now I play canary in a coal mine by running the last Linus blessed rc kernel, 2.6.27-rc3 ATM. >-jef Nah. I've used kino before. The button has been pushed, and Ubuntu 8.04 is coming in via ktorrent right now. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Hope is a waking dream. -- Aristotle -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 7:50 PM, Gene Heskett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > Nah. I've used kino before. The button has been pushed, and Ubuntu 8.04 is > coming in via ktorrent right now. > Good for you. It's important to find a solution that works for you. For your sake, I sincerely hope that Canonical never reaches profitability. So that they will never have to re-evaluate their exposure to the potential legal risk that software patents represent to their business model in the jurisdictions where they sell and service their product..so you'll never have to go distro shopping again. -jef -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 21:40 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 7:50 PM, Gene Heskett > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Nah. I've used kino before. The button has been pushed, and > Ubuntu 8.04 is > coming in via ktorrent right now. > > Good for you. It's important to find a solution that works for you. > For your sake, I sincerely hope that Canonical never reaches > profitability. So that they will never have to re-evaluate their > exposure to the potential legal risk that software patents represent > to their business model in the jurisdictions where they sell and > service their product..so you'll never have to go distro shopping > again. > > -jef Fantastic work, Jeff. Now we have yet another loyal fedora user jumping ship to go to ubuntu, after being told: 1. You need to put up with the crappy apps you already have 2. You need to use your valuable time on this earth to code and not actually use the computer -- to help us with our crappy forced-licensing ideology which is never going to work anyway btw 3. Oh, you're going to Ubuntu? Rots of ruck. You know, one big brass-balled difference between M$ and Red Hat is that, at MicroSoft, they tell the lawyers what to do. At Red Hat, the lawyers tell Red Hat what to do. I'm seeing that it's a big f*king difference. This is the kind of dumb shit Alan Cox mentality that is killing Fedora. I've heard enough excuses, it's done; there's no excuse at all for another distro cleaning your clock when you were on the top of the heap in the first place. Why is it that Ubuntu just works without excuses, and then on the fedora list all we hear is whah whah explanations and justifications? It's patently absurd when the infrastructure of Red Hat itself is in fact RUNNING THE USERS OFF! Oh yeah let me read the script from the peanut gallery that's entering stage right; "duh, shut up I don't want to hear it... whine whine excuse whine excuse.etc." Let's see how many more you run off. LX > -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 10:02 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: > Gene Heskett wrote: > > > I've been with redhat/fedora for a bit over 10 years now for my main > > machine. > > When F8 support ends, I think that will be grounds for a divorce. I'm > > tired > > of the "keep the good stuff on the other side of the pond for legal > > reasons" > > BS that is endlessly repeated from Research Triangle Park. Why the hell > > should we be 2nd class citizens? > > This "issue" has been discussed ad nauseum on this list. Yeah, with you providing the nauseum part of it. > > What is your solution? Does Red Hat allow the Fedora Project to include all > the bits and subject themselves to litigation? Not include anything related > to multimedia? Point their users to places to pick things up...and subject > themselves to litigation? Litigation from who, exactly? Who is going to sue RH for providing a service that makes the OS actually function correctly after decades of development? Time is up, we are into the epoch of absurdity with the question of functionality. The only thing breaching the functionality issue is a dumbass ideology that needs to be decided in court. IF there needs to be a court battle to put the os in the people's favor with other-licensed software, then that's a battle that needs to be fought. Your argument is that someone has the means or motivation to stop functionality from being added to Fedora via another license; I sincerely doubt that, but so what if that's the case? If the battle needs to be fought then it needs to be fought and no amount of hand wringing or head hiding from you will change that fact. After decades of development, this ideology has no more excuses. It is now a barrier to the people, stopping other-licensed technology from making the os usable. Ubuntu has been put forward as a concrete example. It's the GNU Flagellants that are in the way of progress, not anyone else. LX -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Lyvim Xaphir wrote: On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 10:02 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: Litigation from who, exactly? Who is going to sue RH for providing a service that makes the OS actually function correctly after decades of development? Time is up, we are into the epoch of absurdity with the question of functionality. The only thing breaching the functionality issue is a dumbass ideology that needs to be decided in court. So what you want is for Fedora to disregard licenses and publicly redistribute content owned by other organizations? This is an absurd request. That would make Fedora liable in a lawsuit, and then the result might be that Fedora would cease to exist in the end. Anyway, why is this a discussion on the fedora mailing list. It does not help users of fedora, and merely creates distortion. I would suggest moving the discussion to another forum. /ken -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Lyvim Xaphir wrote: On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 10:02 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: Gene Heskett wrote: I've been with redhat/fedora for a bit over 10 years now for my main machine. When F8 support ends, I think that will be grounds for a divorce. I'm tired of the "keep the good stuff on the other side of the pond for legal reasons" BS that is endlessly repeated from Research Triangle Park. Why the hell should we be 2nd class citizens? This "issue" has been discussed ad nauseum on this list. Yeah, with you providing the nauseum part of it. Don't think so... But you are certainly welcome to your opinion. What is your solution? Does Red Hat allow the Fedora Project to include all the bits and subject themselves to litigation? Not include anything related to multimedia? Point their users to places to pick things up...and subject themselves to litigation? Litigation from who, exactly? Who is going to sue RH for providing a service that makes the OS actually function correctly after decades of development? Time is up, we are into the epoch of absurdity with the question of functionality. The only thing breaching the functionality issue is a dumbass ideology that needs to be decided in court. Me thinks you've not researched this too much. This has 0 to do with O/S functionality. What is being talked about is, for example, the fact that RH/Fedora does not provide the tools or libraries to play MP3 (for example) since MP3 requires that one obtain a license and pay royalties to those entities owning the particular patents. Have a gander at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mp3#Licensing_and_patent_issues Also, you can do yourself a favor and do some research about the Music and Video industry and find when they have sued to protect their rights. You will learn why RH/Fedora doesn't include or give pointers to libdvdcss. Hope you do some research to learn the issues. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
2008/8/14 Lyvim Xaphir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Let's see how many more you run off. Don't let us stop you .. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 19:23 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Video editting does not strictly require encumbered crap. If we had > the video editting application such as kino in the distro...we could > edit raw dv from camcorders into quite usable compress theora videos. From time to time, I look into trying video editing on Linux, dabble with some semi-functional software, and give up in disgust. There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding in what's needed with video editing (and some other video related things, like DVD-video backing up), in that we need to create an end-product that's directly usable by someone else. If I create a video, I have to give someone on a DVD that they can play in a standard player connected to their TV set. Ogg theora output is useless. The input side of things is similarly warped. I need to be able to import DV, and work on the files in their own format. Notwithstanding the problems in trying to get video into a system on a virtually ignored firewire port, converting digital video from one format to another is not only wastefully time consuming, but damaging to video quality. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.11-97.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote: [...] > >This is the same stuff/error that kills vlc from building when compiling > from source. It asked for ffmpeg, I got that and installed it, it then > complains about ffmeg-devel and I get it and install it and it still > complains about not having it. I know I can get vlc from livna and I have > done that, but I wanted to build it from source so I can easily update, but > it does not work :( > >Try to install it via yum. Enable livna or freshrpms and install it from > there. I guess it might be the best way? Someone said livna was up to kino-1.3.0, but all I can see is 1.2.0, and it insults our intelligence by needing that worthless POS pulseaudio. Put me on a list so you can let me know when pulseaudio works. Or if it now works in some private lab setting, how to make it work on an F8 x86 system. I nuked that with extreme prejudice when I installed F8, and haven't had a lick of trouble with my audio since. AFAIC its just another aggravation foisted off on us to remind us this is a "bleeding edge" distro and that we should not ever expect it to "just work". >Regards, > >Antonio -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Seen on a button at an SF Convention: Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force. 1990-1951. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
> question of functionality. The only thing breaching the functionality > issue is a dumbass ideology that needs to be decided in court. You appear very confused. Courts enforce the law and in some parts of the world interpret it (sometimes using prior interpretation sometimes not depending upon the court system) *Polticians* create the law. You need to direct your efforts into changing the law in problem countries like the USA. Alan -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Jeff Spaleta wrote: A lot of applications sit on top of ffmpeg and ffmpeg is structured that you have to make compile time choices as to what sort of functionality it exposes. Why is it problematic for an end user to make a compile time choice in an open source system that includes a compiler? Philosophically, I mean - I know RPM packaging is not conducive to using the source. Sucks.. but the ffmpeg developers made a framework chose that is incredibly inflexible. Isn't this really as much a fedora packaging choice that makes working with source inflexible? But realistically, if you have to get the codecs from a third party you might as well get the whole thing there. There really isn't a lot of point in having a crippled version pre-built at all so omitting it from the distro is best for everyone. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 05:24 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: > On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote: > [...] > > > >This is the same stuff/error that kills vlc from building when compiling > > from source. It asked for ffmpeg, I got that and installed it, it then > > complains about ffmeg-devel and I get it and install it and it still > > complains about not having it. I know I can get vlc from livna and I have > > done that, but I wanted to build it from source so I can easily update, but > > it does not work :( > > > >Try to install it via yum. Enable livna or freshrpms and install it from > > there. I guess it might be the best way? > > Someone said livna was up to kino-1.3.0, but all I can see is 1.2.0, and it > insults our intelligence by needing that worthless POS pulseaudio. > > Put me on a list so you can let me know when pulseaudio works. Or if it now > works in some private lab setting, how to make it work on an F8 x86 system. > I nuked that with extreme prejudice when I installed F8, and haven't had a > lick of trouble with my audio since. AFAIC its just another aggravation > foisted off on us to remind us this is a "bleeding edge" distro and that we > should not ever expect it to "just work". I think that you completely misunderstand the point of pulseaudio but that is your prerogative but it's unfair for you to spread the FUD I'm sure it will come as a shock to you to find that pulseaudio is also included in Ubuntu. enjoy Craig -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thursday 14 August 2008, Craig White wrote: >On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 05:24 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: >> On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote: >> [...] >> >> >This is the same stuff/error that kills vlc from building when compiling >> > from source. It asked for ffmpeg, I got that and installed it, it then >> > complains about ffmeg-devel and I get it and install it and it still >> > complains about not having it. I know I can get vlc from livna and I >> > have done that, but I wanted to build it from source so I can easily >> > update, but it does not work :( >> > >> >Try to install it via yum. Enable livna or freshrpms and install it from >> > there. I guess it might be the best way? >> >> Someone said livna was up to kino-1.3.0, but all I can see is 1.2.0, and >> it insults our intelligence by needing that worthless POS pulseaudio. >> >> Put me on a list so you can let me know when pulseaudio works. Or if it >> now works in some private lab setting, how to make it work on an F8 x86 >> system. I nuked that with extreme prejudice when I installed F8, and >> haven't had a lick of trouble with my audio since. AFAIC its just another >> aggravation foisted off on us to remind us this is a "bleeding edge" >> distro and that we should not ever expect it to "just work". > > >I think that you completely misunderstand the point of pulseaudio but >that is your prerogative but it's unfair for you to spread the FUD > >I'm sure it will come as a shock to you to find that pulseaudio is also >included in Ubuntu. I'm aware of that, also aware that they did like we did, nuked it so they can have sound more complex than the pc's beeper. When I last installed from the December respin, it still did not work, and that was what, the 2nd or 3rd respin? Seems to me if it was going to work, it should have worked for >90% of the people by then. Bare in mind I have two sound systems in this machine, I use the motherboards AC97 chipset for skype and friends, and an Audigy 2 (the good one) for everything else. If pulseaudio cannot be respectful of the settings in my /etc/modprobe.conf that achieve that, then it is of no use to me. >From an lspci: 00:06.0 Multimedia audio controller: nVidia Corporation nForce2 AC97 Audio Controler (MCP) (rev a1) 01:07.0 Multimedia video controller: Conexant CX23880/1/2/3 PCI Video and Audio Decoder (rev 05) 01:07.2 Multimedia controller: Conexant CX23880/1/2/3 PCI Video and Audio Decoder [MPEG Port] (rev 05) 01:08.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB0400 Audigy2 Value All of which I expect to work, and which do so now with as much pulseaudio removed as can be without nuking the whole system. If however, it is now working for others, please share with me what it took to make it work, preferably for everyone. Or better yet cuz the list will be quieter, point me to a how to URL. Thanks Craig. >enjoy > >Craig -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) HERE LIES LESTER MOORE SHOT 4 TIMES WITH A .44 NO LES NO MOORE -- tombstone, in Tombstone, AZ -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Lyvim Xaphir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Fantastic work, Jeff. Now we have yet another loyal fedora user jumping > ship to go to ubuntu, after being told: > Thanks, its always nice to hear when people praise the very hard work I do to relate the truth to people, instead of just telling them what they want to hear. You don't want to hear the truth, you are free to ignore me. > 1. You need to put up with the crappy apps you already have > Actually i didn't say that. I pointed out exactly where the technical issues are that can be address. I'm not going to lie to you or anyone. ffmpeg is a problem.. it will continue to be a problem until it has support for runtime detectable plugins. I can't wish the problem away, or yell it away or hold my breath until its fixed..or threaten to move to another distro.. none of that solves the actual technical problem. All I can do is find and encourage developers make use of a more flexible framework. > > 2. You need to use your valuable time on this earth to code and not > actually use the computer -- to help us with our crappy forced-licensing > ideology which is never going to work anyway btw > Someone has to code this stuff, the code doesn't magically fall from the code tree. Yes... you are absolutely right.. people's time is valuable.. developer time is the most precious of the resources that we have. We need more of it. And I will heartily thank anyone who uses their time to help develop a robust video editing application which uses gstreamer as its audio/video framework so we could get reasonable support for raw dv video and theora editting in the distro. Which reminds me I should go on to the pitivi development lists and do some massive amounts of ego stroking to encourage them to do more work. > It's patently absurd when the infrastructure of Red Hat > itself is in fact RUNNING THE USERS OFF! > It's not that we aren't sympathetic. I very much doubt that anyone likes the software patent situation. Legal issues suck, but I'm not going to lie to you about it. We will avoid some patent encumbered code based on Red Hat's legal council because we are not interested in creating a situation where we increase the legal risks for anyone. The legal risk of people like downstream developers who base their work on Fedora. God forbid we accidently cause a legal problem for an embedded developer showing off some sort of mp3 capable device in Germany such that they are handed cease and desist orders at the conference they are attending. For reference: http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=8723 http://news.softpedia.com/news/Police-Raids-51-CeBIT-Booths-For-Patent-Violations-80362.shtml 3 years running now, CeBit has seen German police raids over mp3 patent infringement. It would be really nice to ignore this, and make some simple-minded claims that the problem is strictly a problem in the US and to beat Red Hat up about it...but I can't, Fedora as a project can't, because we have a larger international base and a growing number of downstream distributions which make use of our tech. If we accidentally created a legal problem for someone over a/v patents, I would feel far worse than I do about hearing that I've lost users because we are in their opinion overly cautious about breaking the law. It's not just the home user that we care about nor just Red Hat's legal risks as a sponsor. We care about the legal risks to our global Fedora community, including the ones who might be doing development in Germany or elsewhere where software patents lurk. Or currently we have a small situation with trademarks on OpenOffice.org that is Brazil specific that we need to work through so our Ambassadors and users there avoid a problem. Now as a user you can either live with that or you can't. If you can, and are interested in video production, make a pledge to work with me to find a way to bring a robust gstreamer based video application forward for everyone to make use of. If you can't, then yes you are going to be happier using a distribution other distros take a much more cavilier approach these issues. We are not going to be cavilier with regard to legal risks. We take them seriously. > > Let's see how many more you run off. > Let me be clear. I do not need...nor do I desire for every single person to be running Fedora. Users are not pogs... they are not pokemon...we do not in fact have to catch them all. Does it help me or Fedora to lie to Gene and attempt to keep him as a user? All I can do is be honest about what the technical issues are..ffmpeg...and what the potential solutions are..gstreamer. If he still chooses to distro shop instead of working on solving the problem, I'm not going to run after him with pretty, empty promises that someone else is going to do the work for him. Someone has to do the work, or it's not going to get done. The pitivi developers would probably welcome some more manhours. The success of Fedora
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 12:03 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: > On Thursday 14 August 2008, Craig White wrote: > >On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 05:24 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: > >> On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote: > >> [...] > >> > >> >This is the same stuff/error that kills vlc from building when compiling > >> > from source. It asked for ffmpeg, I got that and installed it, it then > >> > complains about ffmeg-devel and I get it and install it and it still > >> > complains about not having it. I know I can get vlc from livna and I > >> > have done that, but I wanted to build it from source so I can easily > >> > update, but it does not work :( > >> > > >> >Try to install it via yum. Enable livna or freshrpms and install it from > >> > there. I guess it might be the best way? > >> > >> Someone said livna was up to kino-1.3.0, but all I can see is 1.2.0, and > >> it insults our intelligence by needing that worthless POS pulseaudio. > >> > >> Put me on a list so you can let me know when pulseaudio works. Or if it > >> now works in some private lab setting, how to make it work on an F8 x86 > >> system. I nuked that with extreme prejudice when I installed F8, and > >> haven't had a lick of trouble with my audio since. AFAIC its just another > >> aggravation foisted off on us to remind us this is a "bleeding edge" > >> distro and that we should not ever expect it to "just work". > > > > > >I think that you completely misunderstand the point of pulseaudio but > >that is your prerogative but it's unfair for you to spread the FUD > > > >I'm sure it will come as a shock to you to find that pulseaudio is also > >included in Ubuntu. > > I'm aware of that, also aware that they did like we did, nuked it so they can > have sound more complex than the pc's beeper. > > When I last installed from the December respin, it still did not work, and > that was what, the 2nd or 3rd respin? Seems to me if it was going to work, > it should have worked for >90% of the people by then. > > Bare in mind I have two sound systems in this machine, I use the motherboards > AC97 chipset for skype and friends, and an Audigy 2 (the good one) for > everything else. If pulseaudio cannot be respectful of the settings in > my /etc/modprobe.conf that achieve that, then it is of no use to me. > > >From an lspci: > 00:06.0 Multimedia audio controller: nVidia Corporation nForce2 AC97 Audio > Controler (MCP) (rev a1) > 01:07.0 Multimedia video controller: Conexant CX23880/1/2/3 PCI Video and > Audio Decoder (rev 05) > 01:07.2 Multimedia controller: Conexant CX23880/1/2/3 PCI Video and Audio > Decoder [MPEG Port] (rev 05) > 01:08.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB0400 Audigy2 Value > > All of which I expect to work, and which do so now with as much pulseaudio > removed as can be without nuking the whole system. > > If however, it is now working for others, please share with me what it took > to > make it work, preferably for everyone. Or better yet cuz the list will be > quieter, point me to a how to URL. pulseaudio is userland and since you run GUI as root, it's meaningless to you anyway...that's what I meant by stating that you don't understand it's use/purpose. Of course it's only going to get in your way as does all other userland conveniences since you always have the power of superuser and have access to all devices. Since you use GUI as root and have little reason to adapt to userland conveniences, your utterance of disdain for pulseaudio can only be FUD Craig -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thursday 14 August 2008, Craig White wrote: >On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 12:03 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: >> On Thursday 14 August 2008, Craig White wrote: >> >On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 05:24 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: >> >> On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote: >> >> [...] >> >> >> >> >This is the same stuff/error that kills vlc from building when >> >> > compiling from source. It asked for ffmpeg, I got that and installed >> >> > it, it then complains about ffmeg-devel and I get it and install it >> >> > and it still complains about not having it. I know I can get vlc >> >> > from livna and I have done that, but I wanted to build it from source >> >> > so I can easily update, but it does not work :( >> >> > >> >> >Try to install it via yum. Enable livna or freshrpms and install it >> >> > from there. I guess it might be the best way? >> >> >> >> Someone said livna was up to kino-1.3.0, but all I can see is 1.2.0, >> >> and it insults our intelligence by needing that worthless POS >> >> pulseaudio. >> >> >> >> Put me on a list so you can let me know when pulseaudio works. Or if >> >> it now works in some private lab setting, how to make it work on an F8 >> >> x86 system. I nuked that with extreme prejudice when I installed F8, >> >> and haven't had a lick of trouble with my audio since. AFAIC its just >> >> another aggravation foisted off on us to remind us this is a "bleeding >> >> edge" distro and that we should not ever expect it to "just work". >> > >> > >> >I think that you completely misunderstand the point of pulseaudio but >> >that is your prerogative but it's unfair for you to spread the FUD >> > >> >I'm sure it will come as a shock to you to find that pulseaudio is also >> >included in Ubuntu. >> >> I'm aware of that, also aware that they did like we did, nuked it so they >> can have sound more complex than the pc's beeper. >> >> When I last installed from the December respin, it still did not work, and >> that was what, the 2nd or 3rd respin? Seems to me if it was going to >> work, it should have worked for >90% of the people by then. >> >> Bare in mind I have two sound systems in this machine, I use the >> motherboards AC97 chipset for skype and friends, and an Audigy 2 (the good >> one) for everything else. If pulseaudio cannot be respectful of the >> settings in my /etc/modprobe.conf that achieve that, then it is of no use >> to me. >> >> >From an lspci: >> >> 00:06.0 Multimedia audio controller: nVidia Corporation nForce2 AC97 Audio >> Controler (MCP) (rev a1) >> 01:07.0 Multimedia video controller: Conexant CX23880/1/2/3 PCI Video and >> Audio Decoder (rev 05) >> 01:07.2 Multimedia controller: Conexant CX23880/1/2/3 PCI Video and Audio >> Decoder [MPEG Port] (rev 05) >> 01:08.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB0400 Audigy2 Value >> >> All of which I expect to work, and which do so now with as much pulseaudio >> removed as can be without nuking the whole system. >> >> If however, it is now working for others, please share with me what it >> took to make it work, preferably for everyone. Or better yet cuz the list >> will be quieter, point me to a how to URL. > > >pulseaudio is userland and since you run GUI as root, it's meaningless >to you anyway...that's what I meant by stating that you don't understand >it's use/purpose. So far Craig, no one has has offered a clear, lucid explanation of how it (is supposed to) works. It's just like alsa, a big secret, and devoid even of a means to re-init it other than rebooting. Where is the 'service alsa restart'? This is NOT the foss way. >Of course it's only going to get in your way as does >all other userland conveniences since you always have the power of >superuser and have access to all devices. I've been denied access to something by selinux several times. Probably unrelated, but its happened. >Since you use GUI as root and have little reason to adapt to userland >conveniences, your utterance of disdain for pulseaudio can only be FUD But no link to a howto, how very obvious... > >Craig -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) sticky bit has come loose -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 12:53 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: > On Thursday 14 August 2008, Craig White wrote: > >On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 12:03 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: > >> On Thursday 14 August 2008, Craig White wrote: > >> >On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 05:24 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: > >> >> On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote: > >> >> [...] > >> >> > >> >> >This is the same stuff/error that kills vlc from building when > >> >> > compiling from source. It asked for ffmpeg, I got that and installed > >> >> > it, it then complains about ffmeg-devel and I get it and install it > >> >> > and it still complains about not having it. I know I can get vlc > >> >> > from livna and I have done that, but I wanted to build it from source > >> >> > so I can easily update, but it does not work :( > >> >> > > >> >> >Try to install it via yum. Enable livna or freshrpms and install it > >> >> > from there. I guess it might be the best way? > >> >> > >> >> Someone said livna was up to kino-1.3.0, but all I can see is 1.2.0, > >> >> and it insults our intelligence by needing that worthless POS > >> >> pulseaudio. > >> >> > >> >> Put me on a list so you can let me know when pulseaudio works. Or if > >> >> it now works in some private lab setting, how to make it work on an F8 > >> >> x86 system. I nuked that with extreme prejudice when I installed F8, > >> >> and haven't had a lick of trouble with my audio since. AFAIC its just > >> >> another aggravation foisted off on us to remind us this is a "bleeding > >> >> edge" distro and that we should not ever expect it to "just work". > >> > > >> > > >> >I think that you completely misunderstand the point of pulseaudio but > >> >that is your prerogative but it's unfair for you to spread the FUD > >> > > >> >I'm sure it will come as a shock to you to find that pulseaudio is also > >> >included in Ubuntu. > >> > >> I'm aware of that, also aware that they did like we did, nuked it so they > >> can have sound more complex than the pc's beeper. > >> > >> When I last installed from the December respin, it still did not work, and > >> that was what, the 2nd or 3rd respin? Seems to me if it was going to > >> work, it should have worked for >90% of the people by then. > >> > >> Bare in mind I have two sound systems in this machine, I use the > >> motherboards AC97 chipset for skype and friends, and an Audigy 2 (the good > >> one) for everything else. If pulseaudio cannot be respectful of the > >> settings in my /etc/modprobe.conf that achieve that, then it is of no use > >> to me. > >> > >> >From an lspci: > >> > >> 00:06.0 Multimedia audio controller: nVidia Corporation nForce2 AC97 Audio > >> Controler (MCP) (rev a1) > >> 01:07.0 Multimedia video controller: Conexant CX23880/1/2/3 PCI Video and > >> Audio Decoder (rev 05) > >> 01:07.2 Multimedia controller: Conexant CX23880/1/2/3 PCI Video and Audio > >> Decoder [MPEG Port] (rev 05) > >> 01:08.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB0400 Audigy2 Value > >> > >> All of which I expect to work, and which do so now with as much pulseaudio > >> removed as can be without nuking the whole system. > >> > >> If however, it is now working for others, please share with me what it > >> took to make it work, preferably for everyone. Or better yet cuz the list > >> will be quieter, point me to a how to URL. > > > > > >pulseaudio is userland and since you run GUI as root, it's meaningless > >to you anyway...that's what I meant by stating that you don't understand > >it's use/purpose. > > So far Craig, no one has has offered a clear, lucid explanation of how it (is > supposed to) works. It's just like alsa, a big secret, and devoid even of a > means to re-init it other than rebooting. Where is the 'service alsa > restart'? This is NOT the foss way. sysV services were never intended to launch processes that only run in user space. I suppose you could do a 'man pulseaudio' or just blindly figure out that a SIGHUP will restart a process (even alsa). www.pulseaudio.org Craig -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 1:09 AM, Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If I create a video, I have to give someone on a DVD that they can play > in a standard player connected to their TV set. Ogg theora output is > useless. > There is no perfect solution. Yes, the de-facto audio/video standards are patented encumbered. Fedora ships the dvdauthor tool... ive never attempted to use it.. i should. The fight for open standards never ends. I would give my i-teeth to see 1% of the heat caused by OOXML's iso process be moved over and aimed at encumbered video data format "standards". The fact that firefox is going to get native support for theora via the new tag is good news however. http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/?p=492. Open data formats are important. The establishment and use of open data formats for governments and municipality use are probably the most important issue facing modern digital societies. > The input side of things is similarly warped. I need to be able to > import DV, and work on the files in their own format. Notwithstanding > the problems in trying to get video into a system on a virtually ignored > firewire port, converting digital video from one format to another is > not only wastefully time consuming, but damaging to video quality. > hmm... dvgrab as shipped in F9 saw my camera on my firewire port just fine. And i can do simple clip manipulation of the dv footage pulled with dvgrab in pitivi then render it to whatever compressed formats gstreamer supports on the system...by default that would be theora. Pitivi needs love, but I've had it work for me for simple needs. Honestly its the only application in the space that I think has the ability to be further developed..it just needs more attention. -jef -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
> > > >pulseaudio is userland and since you run GUI as root, > it's meaningless > >to you anyway...that's what I meant by stating that > you don't understand > >it's use/purpose. I beg to differ. What does running as root have to do with pulseaudio? It should work, it works for many but not for Gene and others :( > > So far Craig, no one has has offered a clear, lucid > explanation of how it (is > supposed to) works. It's just like alsa, a big secret, > and devoid even of a > means to re-init it other than rebooting. Where is the > 'service alsa > restart'? This is NOT the foss way. There is always this page: http://www.pulseaudio.org/ And this page which might/might not help ? http://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/PerfectSetup I cannot complain because I have sound :), it works for me, but for others it does not and they need working solutions. I see some alsa related stuff from dmesg, but I have sound. I wonder whey I get these, but they are there ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_intel.c:1318: azx_pcm_prepare: bufsize=0x4400, format=0x4011 ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:716: hda_codec_setup_stream: NID=0x6, stream=0x5, channel=0, format=0x4011 ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:716: hda_codec_setup_stream: NID=0x2, stream=0x5, channel=0, format=0x4011 ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:716: hda_codec_setup_stream: NID=0x3, stream=0x5, channel=0, format=0x4011 ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:716: hda_codec_setup_stream: NID=0x4, stream=0x5, channel=0, format=0x4011 ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:716: hda_codec_setup_stream: NID=0x5, stream=0x5, channel=0, format=0x4011 ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x2 ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x3 ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x4 ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x5 ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x6 ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x2 ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x3 ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x4 ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x5 > > >Of course it's only going to get in your way as > does > >all other userland conveniences since you always have > the power of > >superuser and have access to all devices. Selinux stops some of these, as it was meant to protect users including the superuser from doing much more than was intended. > > I've been denied access to something by selinux several > times. Probably > unrelated, but its happened. > > >Since you use GUI as root and have little reason to > adapt to userland > >conveniences, your utterance of disdain for pulseaudio > can only be FUD It should even work better as superuser, he shall not see permission errors, if he does, then there are obviously problems here! > > But no link to a howto, how very obvious... > > > >Craig > > -- > Cheers, Gene > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of > liberty: > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that > order." > -Ed Howdershelt (Author) > sticky bit has come loose > > -- Regards, Antonio -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
> > If I create a video, I have to give someone on a DVD > that they can play > > in a standard player connected to their TV set. Ogg > theora output is > > useless. > > > > There is no perfect solution. Yes, the de-facto audio/video > standards are > patented encumbered. Fedora ships the dvdauthor tool... > ive never > attempted to use it.. i should. Can a good solution be to use the free stuff built for the EvilEmpire's OS and run them through wine? There are a few applications that work fine through wine and were designed for windows users in mind. There are ffmpeg, dvdauthor and the same free stuff(that is patent encumbered) made available for windows users that like to use them. Why not use those through wine? Some users have reported success with those. Why not try them out? > > The fight for open standards never ends. I would give my > i-teeth to see 1% > of the heat caused by OOXML's iso process be moved over > and aimed at > encumbered video data format "standards". > > The fact that firefox is going to get native support for > theora via the new > tag is good news however. > http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/?p=492. > > Open data formats are important. The establishment and use > of open data > formats for governments and municipality use are probably > the most important > issue facing modern digital societies. Yes they are, but not making it easier to users to add support for the other stuff is also important. > > > > The input side of things is similarly warped. I need > to be able to > > import DV, and work on the files in their own format. > Notwithstanding > > the problems in trying to get video into a system on a > virtually ignored > > firewire port, converting digital video from one > format to another is > > not only wastefully time consuming, but damaging to > video quality. Here we have to make use of the EvilEmpireOS if we need to make things just work, unless of course via wine we can get those apps to work. > > > > hmm... dvgrab as shipped in F9 saw my camera on my firewire > port just fine. > And i can do simple clip manipulation of the dv footage > pulled with dvgrab > in pitivi then render it to whatever compressed formats > gstreamer supports > on the system...by default that would be theora. Pitivi > needs love, but > I've had it work for me for simple needs. Honestly its > the only application > in the space that I think has the ability to be further > developed..it just > needs more attention. There are many good things and apps already working, but for a better user experience many things can be better. > > -jef > -- Regards, Antonio -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
> > A lot of applications sit on top of ffmpeg and ffmpeg > is structured that you > > have to make compile time choices as to what sort of > functionality it > > exposes. > > Why is it problematic for an end user to make a compile > time choice in > an open source system that includes a compiler? > Philosophically, I > mean - I know RPM packaging is not conducive to using the > source. > > > Sucks.. but the ffmpeg developers made a framework > chose that is incredibly > > inflexible. > > Isn't this really as much a fedora packaging choice > that makes working > with source inflexible? But realistically, if you have to > get the > codecs from a third party you might as well get the whole > thing there. > There really isn't a lot of point in having a crippled > version pre-built > at all so omitting it from the distro is best for everyone. > > -- >Les Mikesell > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > -- +1) It is very difficult for end users to get all the ***BAD STUFF***, dvd playback, editing, mp3 playback and all other patent encumbered stuff, ..., etc. working through compiling from source. Default Fedora applications like Totem, which is good for the things that it can play, and *it wants to play a DVD when you put it in there*, its intentions are good, but it can't play because of all the reasons we know. Why doesn't Fedora say OK, We will make it easier by removing all of the **good stuff** we give you(the ones that are truly free and not patent encumbered)_ and we will let you the user(s) do what you want. We will give you the base(core), gcc development tools, and libraries and you can build your system from the ground up with all the DVD stuff that you want to put into it, with mp3 playback and all of the ***BAD STUFF** that is patent encumbered. This way the user is solely responsible for fighting with the laws of their own country. Yes, I know that other distros already do this, but why not offer users a Fedora system which does not get in the way with their free/non-free/ugly/not ugly codecs and stuff. Yes, I know that livna and freshrpms build the ***BAD STUFF*** and we can install it, but how about those of us that want to build from source and we are confident in what we can do. For multimedia purposes, the only player that I can get working from source is mplayer. If I try xine, there will be conflicts with the fedora version. Vlc fails to build becuase of ffmpeg/ffmpeg-devel stuff. If one tries to build dvdauthor, k9copy, vamps, ..., others are a pain in the a** to build because several things get in the way. Telling us to move to another distro is not the correct answer. Also to get it from livna or freshrpms might be an option, but is it the best alternative? Thanks jeff for trying to help us out, but it does not do much good despite all the hard efforts that are put forth. Regards, Antonio -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Antonio Olivares wrote: Telling us to move to another distro is not the correct answer. Also to get it from livna or freshrpms might be an option, but is it the best alternative? Ideally, we would see software patents going away but meanwhile we would want to see good support for non patent encumbered codecs and supporting them out of the box by using multimedia frameworks like gstreamer is the best alternative we have and that is what Fedora does. Third party repos makes it very easy to drop in the additional codecs as plugins. As Jef noted, Firefox 3.1 will include native support for ogg (theora for video and vorbis for audio) which is also a pretty good move. If you disagree and want proprietary or patent encumbered codec support by default, Fedora probably isn't the right choice for you. Rahul -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
> Thanks, its always nice to hear when people praise the very > hard work I do > to relate the truth to people, instead of just telling them > what they want > to hear. You don't want to hear the truth, you are free > to ignore me. > I will not ignore you, although most of the reasons are the same and they won't change :( > > > 1. You need to put up with the crappy apps you > already have > > > > Actually i didn't say that. I pointed out exactly where > the technical issues > are that can be address. I'm not going to lie to you or > anyone. ffmpeg is a > problem.. it will continue to be a problem until it has > support for runtime > detectable plugins. I can't wish the problem away, or > yell it away or hold > my breath until its fixed..or threaten to move to another > distro.. none of > that solves the actual technical problem. All I can do is > find and encourage > developers make use of a more flexible framework. > > > 2. You need to use your valuable time on this earth > to code and not > > actually use the computer -- to help us with our > crappy forced-licensing > > ideology which is never going to work anyway btw > > > > Someone has to code this stuff, the code doesn't > magically fall from the > code tree. Yes... you are absolutely right.. people's > time is valuable.. > developer time is the most precious of the resources that > we have. We need > more of it. And I will heartily thank anyone who uses > their time to help > develop a robust video editing application which uses > gstreamer as its > audio/video framework so we could get reasonable support > for raw dv video > and theora editting in the distro. Which reminds me I > should go on to the > pitivi development lists and do some massive amounts of ego > stroking to > encourage them to do more work. > This is where I think you can say okay, we will alleviate this problem by not including these applications or making a Fedora spin ***without the free stuff that is useless for many users***, and that way you the end users can do what you want, but we will not be responsible if you get sued or end up in jail because of violating so-so patent(s). > > > It's patently absurd when the infrastructure of > Red Hat > > itself is in fact RUNNING THE USERS OFF! > > > > It's not that we aren't sympathetic. I very much > doubt that anyone likes the > software patent situation. Legal issues suck, but I'm > not going to lie to > you about it. We will avoid some patent encumbered code > based on Red Hat's > legal council because we are not interested in creating a > situation where we > increase the legal risks for anyone. The legal risk of > people like > downstream developers who base their work on Fedora. God > forbid we > accidently cause a legal problem for an embedded developer > showing off some > sort of mp3 capable device in Germany such that they are > handed cease and > desist orders at the conference they are attending. > > For reference: > http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=8723 > http://news.softpedia.com/news/Police-Raids-51-CeBIT-Booths-For-Patent-Violations-80362.shtml > This is good to know thanks for pointing it out. Since I do not live in Germany or Great Britian(UK) I can see the threats, but I hope *crosses fingers* that we can avoid such threats here in the US. > > 3 years running now, CeBit has seen German police raids > over mp3 patent > infringement. It would be really nice to ignore this, and > make some > simple-minded claims that the problem is strictly a problem > in the US and to > beat Red Hat up about it...but I can't, Fedora as a > project can't, because > we have a larger international base and a growing number of > downstream > distributions which make use of our tech. If we > accidentally created a legal > problem for someone over a/v patents, I would feel far > worse than I do about > hearing that I've lost users because we are in their > opinion overly cautious > about breaking the law. To not break the law, you can avoid a great deal of work without providing the stuff that is truly free so that users have the power to get what they want and build from source or build a different Fedora spin to meet the needs of those users that do not want crippled versions of stuff that works with somethings, but not all things that users want/need to play. > > It's not just the home user that we care about nor just > Red Hat's legal > risks as a sponsor. We care about the legal risks to our > global Fedora > community, including the ones who might be doing > development in Germany or > elsewhere where software patents lurk. Or currently we have > a small > situation with trademarks on OpenOffice.org that is Brazil > specific that we > need to work through so our Ambassadors and users there > avoid a problem. Alexandre should help here. He's with the FSFA in Latin America. He can flex his muscle(s) over there and give us a report. > > Now as a user you can either live with that or
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:10 AM, Antonio Olivares <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > For multimedia purposes, the only player that I can get working from source > is mplayer. If I try xine, there will be conflicts with the fedora version. > Vlc fails to build becuase of ffmpeg/ffmpeg-devel stuff. If one tries to > build dvdauthor, k9copy, vamps, ..., others are a pain in the a** to build > because several things get in the way. > What exactly do you want... you want us to provide the sources for ffmpeg for you? We can't...sorry. We can't even provide you the sources. That's how crappy the legal situation is. We can't even point you to the sources. Honestly I don't know what you are trying to ask for. We provide the development tools... we provide a completely self-contained build environment apparatus via mock that lets you build your own rpms in a repeatable way. Our package maintainers uses these very same tools on a daily basis to do the work that they do. I would be shocked if a good number of livna maintainers did not make use of these tools as well, though I do not have first hand knowledge of that fact. I can very easily build whatever I want. I have my own versions of things that I play with.. I make spec files.. i build rpms..and then using yum plugins such as yum-priorities to make sure my locally built repository of packages do not get overridden by fedora updates. In fact I did just that to build my cutdown version of ffmpeg that does not include the encumbered bits as I understand them. I pull the srpm from livna.. i stripped out the code that I think is encumbered...I made a new source tarball from that cutdown code...I use that as a new source in a new srpm..still called ffmpeg, and I built it under mock against the Fedora 9 target to make sure it built cleanly without 3rd party deps. I then put the result into a local repository on my lan, so that it was accessible to all my machines. I think used that local repository as a source for a local rebuild of kino and gstreamer-ffmpeg under mock. The result is that I have a local binary rpm of a crippled kino, gstreamer-ffmpeg and a crippled ffmpeg so that I can get access to the ffmpeg functionality that is not tied to encumbered codecs. I use yum priorities plugin to make my local repo a higher priority than other repo definitions so I never have to worry about an update dragging in kino or ffmpeg or gst-ffmpeg ever again on my systems. great fun. How exactly did you want it to be easier than that? > Telling us to move to another distro is not the correct answer. Also to > get it from livna or freshrpms might be an option, but is it the best > alternative? > I did not tell anyone to move. Gene made a choice. What I am telling people is that there is work to be done to build a video-editor that can be included. If the work does not get done, the situation with regard to video-editting in Fedora will not get better. Someone who cares about this needs to step up and work on a gstreamer based solution. Contiuing to reiterate the complaints isn't doing anything constructive. We get it, the legal issues suck. We know, Message received. Each and every person who reads what I am writing has a choice to make. I do not assume to know what the right choice is for every person. But I do think I know what the right choice is for Fedora and the long term sustainability of an open technology platform for video editting. And chief among them is a gst based video editting solution which makes use of plugins for encumbered functionality. Users who believe they can strong arm others into taking on ill-advised legal risks associated with software patents..is not among the things I think we need. > > Thanks jeff for trying to help us out, but it does not do much good despite > all the hard efforts that are put forth. > Shrug. If I thought this was not important. I would not bother with it. I do not need to be told that its a difficult problem. -jef"I am not afriad of failure, and thus I free myself to succeed"spaleta -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
> > Telling us to move to another distro is not the > correct answer. Also to get it from livna or freshrpms > might be an option, but is it the best alternative? > > Ideally, we would see software patents going away but > meanwhile we would > want to see good support for non patent encumbered codecs > and supporting > them out of the box by using multimedia frameworks like > gstreamer is the > best alternative we have and that is what Fedora does. > Third party repos > makes it very easy to drop in the additional codecs as > plugins. Here like I have mentioned in the same thread. A Fedora spin without (all the free stuff(non patent encumbered ) that is provided by default) would make sense and would free Fedora/Red Hat from litigation and would make it easier to include the stuff that will make media players play everything under the sun and will not get in the way when buiding these apps. For instance the totem that comes with Fedora, tries very hard to play dvd's, but it can't because of the legal issues. Why not make a spin that does not have Totem, gstreamer and all the free stuff so that users can have the power to build these apps non-crippled? > > As Jef noted, Firefox 3.1 will include native support for > ogg (theora > for video and vorbis for audio) which is also a pretty good > move. If you > disagree and want proprietary or patent encumbered codec > support by > default, Fedora probably isn't the right choice for > you. IT is a good thing, but it will not support everything out there under the sun :( That is why users are asking for, is it reasonable for end users to ask that Fedora *not include all the free stuff* so that they can add the stuff that they want and play everything that they want and of course, Fedora/Red Hat will have no responsibility whatsoever if an end user gets sued, Fedora/Redhat will be immune and should not/cannot be taken to court. > > Rahul It is not a bad thing Rahul. I have mplayer and gecko-media player built from source and I am doing fine. I am not complaining. It would make sense to not have to ship crippled players *unless the users want those only** Regards, Antonio -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Antonio Olivares <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > To not break the law, you can avoid a great deal of work without providing > the stuff that is truly free so that users have the power to get what they > want and build from source or build a different Fedora spin to meet the > needs of those users that do not want crippled versions of stuff that works > with somethings, but not all things that users want/need to play. Hey if you want to build spin that contains none of the multimedia applications that you seem to have problems with, you are welcome to attempt it. We have the tools for people to create their own 'spin' concepts. I challenge you to do it, generate a spin concept for a desktop which does not include the things you have problems with to be used as a base so you can build the applications as you want them. -jef -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Craig White wrote: sysV services were never intended to launch processes that only run in user space. And sound services don't really have much to do with a user login or GUI. I suppose you could do a 'man pulseaudio' or just blindly figure out that a SIGHUP will restart a process (even alsa). Does that tell you how to reconfigure fedora to run a sound server that isn't tied to a user? I think pulseaudio is capable of this, but 'man pulseaudio' probably doesn't tell you how to undo the stock fedora setup. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Antonio Olivares <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > It is not a bad thing Rahul. I have mplayer and gecko-media player built > from source and I am doing fine. I am not complaining. It would make sense > to not have to ship crippled players *unless the users want those only** > Uhm since totem actually uses gst... you get the write gst plugin installed..and you can use totem as shipped with Fedora to play dvds...no rebuilding of totem needed. I think you under-estimate how flexible gst actual is in this regard and as a result your undercut the argument you are trying to make. -jef -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
> > For multimedia purposes, the only player that I can > get working from source > > is mplayer. If I try xine, there will be conflicts > with the fedora version. > > Vlc fails to build becuase of ffmpeg/ffmpeg-devel > stuff. If one tries to > > build dvdauthor, k9copy, vamps, ..., others are a pain > in the a** to build > > because several things get in the way. > > > > What exactly do you want... you want us to provide the > sources for ffmpeg > for you? We can't...sorry. We can't even provide > you the sources. That's > how crappy the legal situation is. We can't even point > you to the sources. I want a Fedora spin that does not have any of this or makes the crippled stuff dependent on it. I can get ffmpeg and build it from source, I appreciate Fedora has developement tools, and libraries to build it from the ground up. What I would like is a Fedora system without the crippled stuff(No multimedia stuff, ie, totem, gstreamer, rhythmbox) all the stuff that is included. I can install my own. What I want at my own risk of course. This is all. This way I can build a good xine that can play dvd's and do stuff that the regular xine+totem can't do, ***although it tries very hard, but cant :( *** > > Honestly I don't know what you are trying to ask for. > We provide the > development tools... we provide a completely self-contained > build > environment apparatus via mock that lets you build your own > rpms in a > repeatable way. Our package maintainers uses these very > same tools on a > daily basis to do the work that they do. I would be shocked > if a good number > of livna maintainers did not make use of these tools as > well, though I do > not have first hand knowledge of that fact. I wonder how these guys get to build vlc and make it work. Their work is admirable. Try to build vlc from source and see all the problems that you encounter. It is a pain in the a** > > I can very easily build whatever I want. I have my own > versions of things > that I play with.. I make spec files.. i build rpms..and > then using yum > plugins such as yum-priorities to make sure my locally > built repository of > packages do not get overridden by fedora updates. > In fact I did just that to build my cutdown version of > ffmpeg that does not > include the encumbered bits as I understand them. I pull > the srpm from > livna.. i stripped out the code that I think is > encumbered...I made a new > source tarball from that cutdown code...I use that as a new > source in a new > srpm..still called ffmpeg, and I built it under mock > against the Fedora 9 > target to make sure it built cleanly without 3rd party > deps. I then put the > result into a local repository on my lan, so that it was > accessible to all > my machines. I think used that local repository as a > source for a local > rebuild of kino and gstreamer-ffmpeg under mock. This is awesome for you of course. I do not know how to build rpms and deal with this, I have read tutorials but I get no where because errors arise and deps come into the picture it is not very nice :( > > The result is that I have a local binary rpm of a crippled > kino, > gstreamer-ffmpeg and a crippled ffmpeg so that I can get > access to the > ffmpeg functionality that is not tied to encumbered codecs. > I use yum > priorities plugin to make my local repo a higher priority > than other repo > definitions so I never have to worry about an update > dragging in kino or > ffmpeg or gst-ffmpeg ever again on my systems. > > great fun. How exactly did you want it to be easier than > that? For you it is, but for me I just want to build from source. But it is very difficult. Of all the multimedia players out there only mplayer is the one that I can successfully build. > > > > Telling us to move to another distro is not the > correct answer. Also to > > get it from livna or freshrpms might be an option, but > is it the best > > alternative? > > > I did not tell anyone to move. Gene made a choice. What I > am telling people > is that there is work to be done to build a video-editor > that can be > included. If the work does not get done, the situation with > regard to > video-editting in Fedora will not get better. Someone who > cares about this > needs to step up and work on a gstreamer based solution. > Contiuing to > reiterate the complaints isn't doing anything > constructive. We get it, the > legal issues suck. We know, Message received. Each and > every person who > reads what I am writing has a choice to make. I do not > assume to know what > the right choice is for every person. But I do think I know > what the right > choice is for Fedora and the long term sustainability of an > open technology > platform for video editting. And chief among them is a gst > based video > editting solution which makes use of plugins for encumbered > functionality. > Users who believe they can strong arm others into taking on > ill-advised > legal risks associated with softw
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Antonio Olivares wrote: Here like I have mentioned in the same thread. A Fedora spin without (all the free stuff(non patent encumbered ) that is provided by default) would make sense and would free Fedora/Red Hat from litigation and would make it easier to include the stuff that will make media players play everything under the sun and will not get in the way when buiding these apps. It won't make sense for Fedora to not include support for the non-patent encumbered codecs since one of the primary objectives of Fedora is to enable and support free and open source software. Besides multimedia frameworks like gstreamer is a dependency of many many apps and excluding them all is not feasible. Normally users who want additional components would just grab those from a third party repo. If you are compiling from source, that's a smaller nice of users and you are very well equipped to remove whatever you don't want. Again, if you disagree and think your goal will help end users, feel free to build a Fedora spin exactly the way you want. The tools that we used to build Fedora are all available as part of Fedora. It is not a bad thing Rahul. I have mplayer and gecko-media player built from source and I am doing fine. I am not complaining. It would make sense to not have to ship crippled players *unless the users want those only** Gstreamer has a plugin model and we don't include some of the plugins. This process doesn't require actively crippling anything. Rahul -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
> > It is not a bad thing Rahul. I have mplayer and > gecko-media player built > > from source and I am doing fine. I am not > complaining. It would make sense > > to not have to ship crippled players *unless the users > want those only** > > > > Uhm since totem actually uses gst... you get the write gst > plugin > installed..and you can use totem as shipped with Fedora to > play dvds...no > rebuilding of totem needed. I think you under-estimate how > flexible gst > actual is in this regard and as a result your undercut the > argument you are > trying to make. > > -jef Tell me how/Show me how to do that. When I try to build xine-lib or lib-xine it fails to compile and I just give up. I would like to have xine, mplayer and vlc all working, but only mplayer does the job so far and I also have the gecko- plugin for gnome-mplayer that Kevin Dekorte works on. And I am very happy to use them. I would not mind if you told me how to build the gst* stuff to make totem play DVDs. In fact I would appreciate it. This way I won't have to mess around with xine-lib and xine-ui. Regards, Antonio -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
> > Here like I have mentioned in the same thread. A > Fedora spin without (all the free stuff(non patent > encumbered ) that is provided by default) > would make sense and would free Fedora/Red Hat from > litigation and would > make it easier to include the stuff that will make media > players play > everything under the sun and will not get in the way when > buiding these > apps. > > It won't make sense for Fedora to not include support > for the non-patent > encumbered codecs since one of the primary objectives of > Fedora is to > enable and support free and open source software. Besides > multimedia > frameworks like gstreamer is a dependency of many many apps > and > excluding them all is not feasible. Normally users who want > additional > components would just grab those from a third party repo. > If you are > compiling from source, that's a smaller nice of users > and you are very > well equipped to remove whatever you don't want. Again, > if you disagree > and think your goal will help end users, feel free to build > a Fedora > spin exactly the way you want. The tools that we used to > build Fedora > are all available as part of Fedora. > > > > It is not a bad thing Rahul. I have mplayer and > gecko-media player built from source and I am doing fine. I > am not complaining. > It would make sense to not have to ship crippled players > *unless the > users want those only** > > Gstreamer has a plugin model and we don't include some > of the plugins. > This process doesn't require actively crippling > anything. Jeff has mentioned the plugin system if it can be built from source, I will take a look into it. Otherwise, I guess using livna or freshrpms is the answer besides working with mock and learning more about the process. I will see what I can do. Thanks, Antonio > > Rahul -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Antonio Olivares wrote: Jeff has mentioned the plugin system if it can be built from source, I will take a look into it. Otherwise, I guess using livna or freshrpms is the answer besides working with mock and learning more about the process. I will see what I can do. Many of the multimedia packages have complex interdependencies and configuration options. It is not easy to get it all right while building from source and that really isn't necessary. Is there any particular reason you are not using pre-built binaries? Rahul PS: You should set your mail client to do line wraps properly. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thursday 14 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote: > >It should even work better as superuser, he shall not see permission errors, > if he does, then there are obviously problems here! Ok, I re-installed the whole maryann: Aug 14 15:52:59 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: pulseaudio.i386 0.9.8-5.fc8 Aug 14 15:53:00 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: pulseaudio-utils.i386 0.9.8-5.fc8 Aug 14 15:53:00 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: pulseaudio-module-lirc.i386 0.9.8-5.fc8 Aug 14 15:53:00 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: pulseaudio-module-bluetooth.i386 0.9.8-5.fc8 Aug 14 15:53:01 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: pulseaudio-module-x11.i386 0.9.8-5.fc8 Aug 14 15:53:01 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: pulseaudio-libs-glib2.i386 0.9.8-5.fc8 Aug 14 15:53:01 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: pulseaudio-esound-compat.i386 0.9.8-5.fc8 Aug 14 15:53:02 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: pulseaudio-module-gconf.i386 0.9.8-5.fc8 Aug 14 15:53:02 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: pulseaudio-module-zeroconf.i386 0.9.8-5.fc8 Aug 14 15:53:02 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: pulseaudio-libs-zeroconf.i386 0.9.8-5.fc8 Aug 14 15:53:03 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: pulseaudio-module-jack.i386 0.9.8-5.fc8 Aug 14 15:56:00 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: alsa-plugins-pulseaudio.i386 1.0.15-3.fc8.1 Aug 14 15:56:02 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: gconfmm26.i386 2.20.0-1.fc8 Aug 14 15:56:03 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: pavucontrol.i386 0.9.5-0.4.svn20070925.fc8 Aug 14 15:56:04 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: paman.i386 0.9.4-0.1.svn20070816.fc8 Aug 14 15:56:04 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: pavumeter.i386 0.9.3-0.2.svn20070925.fc8 Aug 14 15:56:05 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: padevchooser.i386 0.9.4-0.3.svn20070925.fc8 Aug 14 15:56:05 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: gstreamer-plugins-pulse.i386 0.9.5-0.4.svn20070924.fc8 Aug 14 15:56:06 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: kde-settings-pulseaudio.noarch 3.5-38.fc8 Aug 14 15:56:06 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: paprefs.i386 0.9.6-0.2.svn20070925.fc8 Aug 14 15:56:06 coyote yum(yumex): Installed: xine-lib-pulseaudio.i386 1.1.12-2.fc8 Running paman from a shell gets a connection refused, and I don't see anything in /etc/rc.d/init.d to start a server which could then refuse the connection. And of course my system is now silent. Consulting First Steps, I tried "pulseaudio -nC" and got sort of a prompt, which when I enter "help", spits out a long list of options. As I'm sitting there contemplating the next step, my kde related sound effects to indicate the type of incoming mail are now working again. I've done a killall on it and restarted with some of the other options, but they all exit for various permissions problems. And I think my audio is still working but I have not tested all paths. A ps -ea shows its running, and an lsof|grep pulse returns a lengthy list. But nothing has made it to dmesg or messages. padevchooser is there, but gives no output anyplace. A ^C kills it back to the shell prompt. pavucontrol runs, puts up a connection refused box and exits when the box is closed. pavumeter (--record) only show the refused box. Next? -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) "Facts are stupid things." -- President Ronald Reagan (a blooper from his speech at the '88 GOP convention) -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 10:57 -0700, Antonio Olivares wrote: > Can a good solution be to use the free stuff built for the > EvilEmpire's OS and run them through wine? > > There are a few applications that work fine through wine and were > designed for windows users in mind. There are ffmpeg, dvdauthor and > the same free stuff(that is patent encumbered) made available for > windows users that like to use them. Why not use those through wine? I don't see what is gained by this in a *legal* sense. Anything that requires a proprietary codec requires a non-free license, whether it works via Wine or not. AFAIK Fedora could still not include it, for precisely the same reasons. And if you can use non-free codecs from Livna or whatever, as many of us undoubtedly do, then Wine is irrelevant as regards the legal position. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
> > Can a good solution be to use the free stuff built for > the > > EvilEmpire's OS and run them through wine? > > > > There are a few applications that work fine through > wine and were > > designed for windows users in mind. There are ffmpeg, > dvdauthor and > > the same free stuff(that is patent encumbered) made > available for > > windows users that like to use them. Why not use > those through wine? > > I don't see what is gained by this in a *legal* sense. > Anything that > requires a proprietary codec requires a non-free license, > whether it > works via Wine or not. AFAIK Fedora could still not include > it, for > precisely the same reasons. Well in Windows you can run lots of proprietary stuff via crack(s)(ed) software. To many people they are equivalent to free software because 1) they did not pay for it 2) they are using it for free and it works 3) it will work for what they want and that is all that matters for them You can also run free programs(endorsed by FSF) on Windows without any problems, and using those same programs here on the Linux side *might be bad* because of patents. Some are some are not. It is very hard to determine why and where do you draw the line between what is free and patent proof and free but with a few gotchas. Of course I am not asking that Fedora to include it. I am not stupid and do not want to hurt Fedora in any way shape or form. I am stating that those programs that help in editing video and producing stuff that is *very hard* to make it work in Fedora, to try it out with some free software/or proprietary software for the EvilEmpireOS via wine and see if it works or not? > > And if you can use non-free codecs from Livna or whatever, > as many of us > undoubtedly do, then Wine is irrelevant as regards the > legal position. That will not change the position. You are right :) > > poc > > -- Regards, Antonio -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Gene Heskett wrote: > > Running paman from a shell gets a connection refused, and I don't see anything > in /etc/rc.d/init.d to start a server which could then refuse the connection. > > And of course my system is now silent. Consulting First Steps, I tried > "pulseaudio -nC" and got sort of a prompt, which when I enter "help", spits > out a long list of options. As I'm sitting there contemplating the next step, > my kde related sound effects to indicate the type of incoming mail are now > working again. > > I've done a killall on it and restarted with some of the other options, but > they all exit for various permissions problems. And I think my audio is > still working but I have not tested all paths. > > A ps -ea shows its running, and an lsof|grep pulse returns a lengthy list. > But nothing has made it to dmesg or messages. > > padevchooser is there, but gives no output anyplace. A ^C kills it back to > the shell prompt. > > pavucontrol runs, puts up a connection refused box and exits when the box is > closed. > > pavumeter (--record) only show the refused box. > > Next? > Dumb question - do you have X running? If so, is root logged into the GUI? I believe these 3 programs are all GUI programs, and even root will get a connection refused message if another user is logged in. Mikkel -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> {{ 21,012 - 9,967 }}
>
> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Lyvim Xaphir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Fantastic work, Jeff. Now we have yet another loyal fedora user jumping
>> ship to go to ubuntu, after being told:
>
> Thanks, its always nice to hear when people praise the very hard work I do
> to relate the truth to people, instead of just telling them what they want
> to hear. You don't want to hear the truth, you are free to ignore me.
and here after, that is what it will be for me. at least as long as you
continue to send *html* in your email.
please note numbers above, below your name. that shows you wasted 11,045
bytes of storage on my system and every one else that received it. that is,
unless they have a mail parser set up remove 'html'.
this is not first email that you have sent, nor is it last from what i have
noted by my 'html' email box. 3 messages, 27,778 bytes. but it is last that
i will read, as i have now added another filter and this one is just for you;
from = "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" and "Content-Type: text/html"
action = move to trash
your missive's have been of how much you have done for good and support,
and i have enjoyed reading, some of them have been a good laugh. but that
is now to an end. that is until you change your configurations on 'gmail'.
- --
tc,hago.
g
.
in a free world without fences, who needs gates.
learn linux:
'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz
'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/
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MSim9CtpDrMh5uYvztHXKoM=
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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 1:51 PM, g <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > and here after, that is what it will be for me. at least as long as you > continue to send *html* in your email. Crap how long have i been sending html out without knowing it. Apologizes. This one should definitely be text. If its not..someone punch me. -jef -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 1:51 PM, g <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> and here after, that is what it will be for me. at least as long as you >> continue to send *html* in your email. > > Crap how long have i been sending html out without knowing it. Apologizes. > > This one should definitely be text. If its not..someone punch me. lol. i do not know. but thanks for changing. now i can have more good laughs. - -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIpKwM+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAlBpAKCQvhoNr3bbuc45hMXW5/Gb10V+4ACeP0A/ yX8J63KlQVS63NskNC8qrnc= =844y -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 14:42 -0700, Antonio Olivares wrote: > Of course I am not asking that Fedora to include it. I am not stupid > and do not want to hurt Fedora in any way shape or form. I am stating > that those programs that help in editing video and producing stuff > that is *very hard* to make it work in Fedora, to try it out with some > free software/or proprietary software for the EvilEmpireOS via wine > and see if it works or not? Sorry if I misunderstood you Antonio (I thought you were proposing a workaround to the license/patent problems). OT: you *really* should take a look at your mail client (Yahoo apparently). The long lines and the lack of attribution in citations make your posts really quite hard to read. Cheers poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
> > Of course I am not asking that Fedora to include it. > I am not stupid > > and do not want to hurt Fedora in any way shape or > form. I am stating > > that those programs that help in editing video and > producing stuff > > that is *very hard* to make it work in Fedora, to try > it out with some > > free software/or proprietary software for the > EvilEmpireOS via wine > > and see if it works or not? > > Sorry if I misunderstood you Antonio (I thought you were > proposing a > workaround to the license/patent problems). I wish I could find some solutions, but I lack the legal expertise and knowledge to determine if they could be used. I can use language, and my words carefully, but it will sadly not work :( I can find contradictions, and parts where "you may use ...", but those statements will unfortunately not hold water in a court of law :( > > OT: you *really* should take a look at your mail client > (Yahoo > apparently). The long lines and the lack of attribution in > citations > make your posts really quite hard to read. Rahul also referred something dealing with this he wrote >> PS: You should set your mail client to do line wraps properly. > > Cheers > > poc > > -- I am using old yahoo mail, new yahoo mail encourages me to top-post and does not put ">" when replying to mail :( I thought that it was OK, but hopefully some experienced yahoo user can advice me to fix this :) Regards, Antonio -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 15:37 -0700, Antonio Olivares wrote: > I am using old yahoo mail, new yahoo mail encourages me to top-post > and does not put ">" when replying to mail :( I thought that it was > OK, but hopefully some experienced yahoo user can advice me to fix > this :) Don't use it myself, but a look at the online help doesn't indicate an obvious fix, i.e. it's as broken as most webmails. The new version does allow attributed citations (in a highly non-standard format), and you can reply inline or at the end by remembering to do it, but in that sense it's just the same as Evolution, which also encourages top-posting (hopefully to be an option in a future release). BTW, it also says it's "supported" on Windoze and MacOS, whatever that means. No mention of Linux of course. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 18:45 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > in that sense it's just the same as Evolution, which also encourages > top-posting Not here it doesn't... -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.11-97.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Tim: >> The input side of things is similarly warped. I need to be able to >> import DV, and work on the files in their own format. Notwithstanding >> the problems in trying to get video into a system on a virtually ignored >> firewire port, converting digital video from one format to another is >> not only wastefully time consuming, but damaging to video quality. Jeff Spaleta: > hmm... dvgrab as shipped in F9 saw my camera on my firewire port just > fine. And i can do simple clip manipulation of the dv footage pulled > with dvgrab in pitivi then render it to whatever compressed formats > gstreamer supports on the system...by default that would be theora. Here, nothing would import video through the firewire port, even if I just hit play on the camera and didn't try remotely controlling the player from the computer (which didn't work either). Apparently the firewire port does work enough that you can see the camera's been recognised, if you look through the system logs. And even if I imported video via Windows, then tried to make use of the already captured files in Linux, I got nowhere. And adding every available codec didn't help, things, at all. Again, re-rendering lossy compressed video is to be avoided at all costs, it's seriously detrimental to quality. And usually would be completely avoidable, anyway, as most editing is "cuts only" which doesn't need re-rendering, just interrupting the streams at the right moment, and joining two streams together. To be fair, though, I find all computer editing software to be crap (including Windows and Mac). Unless you have the dosh for real professional editing software, they're rotten to use compared to a real edit suite. Terrible user-interfaces, lacking essential features (while full of rubbish features), time-wasting operating principles... -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.11-97.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 09:14 +0930, Tim wrote: > On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 18:45 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > in that sense it's just the same as Evolution, which also encourages > > top-posting > > Not here it doesn't... Yes it does. If you hit Reply the cursor is left at the top of the quoted material and has to be manually moved to the bottom. That to me is "encouraging top-posting". I reported this on the Evo Bugzilla a while back, and after exchanging views with the devels was told they would add an option to change this in a future version. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Antonio Olivares wrote: > I am using old yahoo mail, new yahoo mail encourages me to top-post > and does not put ">" when replying to mail :( I thought that it was > OK, but hopefully some experienced yahoo user can advice me to fix this :) switch to gmail and set up configurations. or just use a local mail client and set it up as it should be. not as msbsos does. > > Regards, > > Antonio > > > > - -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIpMdA+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAhg4AJwKes0jDYkk9kDTTcsLKpmmgkcWLQCgoRVE V5BLqFqZ25Pt1pRpgq91+GQ= =/nkw -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Here, nothing would import video through the firewire port, even if I > just hit play on the camera and didn't try remotely controlling the > player from the computer (which didn't work either). Apparently the > firewire port does work enough that you can see the camera's been > recognised, if you look through the system logs. We should look at this more closely...probably in another thread. It might be a kernel regression..or it could be some sort of acl issue associated with the new authorization scheme that PolicyKit/ConsoleKit uses for device access. We need to compare notes..but not in this thread. And even if I imported > video via Windows, then tried to make use of the already captured files > in Linux, I got nowhere. And adding every available codec didn't help, > things, at all. > > Again, re-rendering lossy compressed video is to be avoided at all > costs, it's seriously detrimental to quality. And usually would be > completely avoidable, anyway, as most editing is "cuts only" which > doesn't need re-rendering, just interrupting the streams at the right > moment, and joining two streams together. pitivi knows how to deal with dv as source material.. and it does basic clip sequencing and chopping. I've use it to sequence a couple of things shot from the panasonic minidv camcorder that I have, and then used audacity to edit the sound track separately, then mixed the two together into a final theora video with vorbis audio. A topic for another thread. -jef -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 00:01 +, g wrote: > switch to gmail and set up configurations. Gmail also encourages top-posting, though at least the quoting mechanism is a bit more standard. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Gmail also encourages top-posting, though at least the quoting mechanism is a bit more standard. You do know how to move the cursor, don't you? Starting with the cursor at the top shouldn't encourage you to top-post, it should encourage you to move down through the quoted text, deleting unwanted context and adding your response in line in each section. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Patrick O'Callaghan: > Yes it does. If you hit Reply the cursor is left at the top of the > quoted material and has to be manually moved to the bottom. That to me > is "encouraging top-posting". I reported this on the Evo Bugzilla a > while back, and after exchanging views with the devels was told they > would add an option to change this in a future version. If it put blank space above the quoted text, with the cursor there, and quoted text *further* below, I'd tend to agree. But it doesn't, the quoted text is right at the top of the page. That's not exactly conducive to typing there. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.11-97.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thursday 14 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote: >> > Telling us to move to another distro is not the >> >> correct answer. Also to get it from livna or freshrpms >> might be an option, but is it the best alternative? >> >> Ideally, we would see software patents going away but >> meanwhile we would >> want to see good support for non patent encumbered codecs >> and supporting >> them out of the box by using multimedia frameworks like >> gstreamer is the >> best alternative we have and that is what Fedora does. >> Third party repos >> makes it very easy to drop in the additional codecs as >> plugins. > >Here like I have mentioned in the same thread. A Fedora spin without (all > the free stuff(non patent encumbered ) that is provided by default) would > make sense and would free Fedora/Red Hat from litigation and would make it > easier to include the stuff that will make media players play everything > under the sun and will not get in the way when buiding these apps. > >For instance the totem that comes with Fedora, tries very hard to play > dvd's, but it can't because of the legal issues. Why not make a spin that > does not have Totem, gstreamer and all the free stuff so that users can > have the power to build these apps non-crippled? > >> As Jef noted, Firefox 3.1 will include native support for >> ogg (theora >> for video and vorbis for audio) which is also a pretty good >> move. If you >> disagree and want proprietary or patent encumbered codec >> support by >> default, Fedora probably isn't the right choice for >> you. > >IT is a good thing, but it will not support everything out there under the > sun :( > >That is why users are asking for, is it reasonable for end users to ask that > Fedora *not include all the free stuff* so that they can add the stuff that > they want and play everything that they want and of course, Fedora/Red Hat > will have no responsibility whatsoever if an end user gets sued, > Fedora/Redhat will be immune and should not/cannot be taken to court. > >> Rahul > >It is not a bad thing Rahul. I have mplayer and gecko-media player built > from source and I am doing fine. I am not complaining. It would make > sense to not have to ship crippled players *unless the users want those > only** > >Regards, > >Antonio I'm going to throw in a hearty second to that notion. In my attempts to get some, any damned thing to work here, it appears I now have a dep clash even with kino-1.2.0 from livna: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]# kino kino: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/libavformat.so.51: undefined symbol: av_crc04C11DB7 I have removed the house cleaning lines from all the gmerlin stuffs and rebuilt them, of which that is a small part, and I will now see if I can nuke what must be a newer version of libavformat. Which isn't doing any good. Apparently kino is fixated on libavformat.so.51 and there seems to be no way that I can make it look at the locally built libavformat.so.52 located in /opt/gmerlin/lib, and I think is properly setup in /etc/ld.so.conf.d. Since the kino on livna is about 8 months old, version 1.2.0, is there a chance that 1.3.1 will hit livna before F8 is dead? It might be built against the later libraries. Thanks. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Air pollution is really making us pay through the nose. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thursday 14 August 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >Antonio Olivares wrote: >> Here like I have mentioned in the same thread. A Fedora spin without (all >> the free stuff(non patent encumbered ) that is provided by default) > >would make sense and would free Fedora/Red Hat from litigation and would >make it easier to include the stuff that will make media players play >everything under the sun and will not get in the way when buiding these >apps. > >It won't make sense for Fedora to not include support for the non-patent >encumbered codecs since one of the primary objectives of Fedora is to >enable and support free and open source software. Besides multimedia >frameworks like gstreamer is a dependency of many many apps and >excluding them all is not feasible. Normally users who want additional >components would just grab those from a third party repo. If you are >compiling from source, that's a smaller nice of users and you are very >well equipped to remove whatever you don't want. Again, if you disagree >and think your goal will help end users, feel free to build a Fedora >spin exactly the way you want. The tools that we used to build Fedora >are all available as part of Fedora. > >> It is not a bad thing Rahul. I have mplayer and gecko-media player built >> from source and I am doing fine. I am not complaining. > >It would make sense to not have to ship crippled players *unless the >users want those only** > >Gstreamer has a plugin model and we don't include some of the plugins. >This process doesn't require actively crippling anything. > >Rahul Then why, after installing about 10 or 12 packages all purported to be gstreamer related, can I not make it run & do something? I doesn't even show up in the kde menu's. Seems like a good question to me anyway. Based on the hoopla here over the last 2 days, I've installed all the pulseaudio stuffs yum can find, and all the gstreamer stuffs that yum can find. The end result for pulseaudio has already been posted in this thread, and absolutely zip of gstreamer or gst as it seems to be called in some corners of the ring, and nothing of those packages can be executed. Do they conflict? If so, why is there absolutely zip about either in the logs? -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) "Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines." -- Bertrand Russell -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thursday 14 August 2008, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote: >Gene Heskett wrote: >> Running paman from a shell gets a connection refused, and I don't see >> anything in /etc/rc.d/init.d to start a server which could then refuse the >> connection. >> >> And of course my system is now silent. Consulting First Steps, I tried >> "pulseaudio -nC" and got sort of a prompt, which when I enter "help", >> spits out a long list of options. As I'm sitting there contemplating the >> next step, my kde related sound effects to indicate the type of incoming >> mail are now working again. >> >> I've done a killall on it and restarted with some of the other options, >> but they all exit for various permissions problems. And I think my audio >> is still working but I have not tested all paths. >> >> A ps -ea shows its running, and an lsof|grep pulse returns a lengthy list. >> But nothing has made it to dmesg or messages. >> >> padevchooser is there, but gives no output anyplace. A ^C kills it back >> to the shell prompt. >> >> pavucontrol runs, puts up a connection refused box and exits when the box >> is closed. >> >> pavumeter (--record) only show the refused box. >> >> Next? > >Dumb question - do you have X running? yes of course. >If so, is root logged into >the GUI? Ditto. >I believe these 3 programs are all GUI programs, and even >root will get a connection refused message if another user is logged in. Maybe I'm dense, but what the heck has x running as root, a visual interface, got to do with what is supposed to be an audio application? >Mikkel -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) QOTD: If you're looking for trouble, I can offer you a wide selection. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
> >> Here like I have mentioned in the same thread. A > Fedora spin without (all > >> the free stuff(non patent encumbered ) that is > provided by default) > > > >would make sense and would free Fedora/Red Hat from > litigation and would > >make it easier to include the stuff that will make > media players play > >everything under the sun and will not get in the way > when buiding these > >apps. > > > >It won't make sense for Fedora to not include > support for the non-patent > >encumbered codecs since one of the primary objectives > of Fedora is to > >enable and support free and open source software. > Besides multimedia > >frameworks like gstreamer is a dependency of many many > apps and > >excluding them all is not feasible. Normally users who > want additional > >components would just grab those from a third party > repo. If you are > >compiling from source, that's a smaller nice of > users and you are very > >well equipped to remove whatever you don't want. > Again, if you disagree > >and think your goal will help end users, feel free to > build a Fedora > >spin exactly the way you want. The tools that we used > to build Fedora > >are all available as part of Fedora. > > > >> It is not a bad thing Rahul. I have mplayer and > gecko-media player built > >> from source and I am doing fine. I am not > complaining. > > > >It would make sense to not have to ship crippled > players *unless the > >users want those only** > > > >Gstreamer has a plugin model and we don't include > some of the plugins. > >This process doesn't require actively crippling > anything. > > > >Rahul > > Then why, after installing about 10 or 12 packages all > purported to be > gstreamer related, can I not make it run & do > something? I doesn't even show > up in the kde menu's. > > Seems like a good question to me anyway. Based on the > hoopla here over the > last 2 days, I've installed all the pulseaudio stuffs > yum can find, and all > the gstreamer stuffs that yum can find. > > The end result for pulseaudio has already been posted in > this thread, and > absolutely zip of gstreamer or gst as it seems to be called > in some corners > of the ring, and nothing of those packages can be executed. > Do they > conflict? If so, why is there absolutely zip about either > in the logs? > > -- > Cheers, Gene > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of > liberty: > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that > order." > -Ed Howdershelt (Author) > "Religion is something left over from the infancy of > our intelligence, it will > fade away as we adopt reason and science as our > guidelines." > -- Bertrand Russell > > -- There are several gstreamer plugins: http://www.gnome.org/projects/totem/ Codecs Totem can display a variety of formats, based on what backend you use. To see what backend you are using check the "About" dialog of Totem. GStreamer When using the GStreamer backend, you can install multiple plugin packages. You can install them the same way as you would install totem. Some information about the gstreamer-plugins packages can be found here. gst-plugins-base the basic and essential plug-ins for GStreamer gst-plugins-good the plug-ins for most Open formats gst-plugins-ugly good-quality plug-ins that might pose distribution problems, needed for DVD playback gst-plugins-bad a set of plug-ins that need more work, needed for YouTube videos gst-ffmpeg FFmpeg-based plug-in, contains all the basic decoders for popular codecs, such as DivX and WMV Pitfdll Plug-ins using the Windows codec DLLs for which no free software implementation exists yet. xine-lib Everything's included in this version, apart from some proprietary codecs that require Windows DLLs. Check the FAQ on xine-lib's website. That should sort most of you out. And there's the xine part. To use that one, we can install totem-xine, if not it falls back on gstreamer plugins. I have sucessfully installed the latest xine-lib-1.1.15 from xine.de page. I have made it work. Onto VLC which I will try again one of these days. Hope you succeed building new kino Gene! Don't give up. I'll cheer for you :) Regards, Antonio -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Gene Heskett wrote: > On Thursday 14 August 2008, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote: > >> I believe these 3 programs are all GUI programs, and even >> root will get a connection refused message if another user is logged in. > > Maybe I'm dense, but what the heck has x running as root, a visual interface, > got to do with what is supposed to be an audio application? > What I was trying to say is that if another user is using X, then even root can not start a GUI program from the command line. You do not have permission to connect to the X server. Now, if you have more then one X secession open, then you may have to pass the display to your program, or set the DISPLAY variable. (DISPLAY is not set for a CLI login if you started X from another login.) You run into this problem with any that tryes to connect to the X server if you do not "own" the X server. (Unless you turn off access control.) With you logged in as root to the GUI, this is not the problem yo are running into - this is why I asked the question - to determine if this was your problem. As I don't log into the GUI as root, I am not sure if it causes problems with PA, but I am guessing that it does. I have not problems with PA when I am logged in as a normal user. If you have some spare time, try logging in as a normal user and see if that changes anything. If everything works, it is a good indication of a bug on how root is handled. If it does not work, then it is a good indication that it is a problem with your specific hardware/software combination... Mikkel -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Gene Heskett wrote: Then why, after installing about 10 or 12 packages all purported to be gstreamer related, can I not make it run & do something? I doesn't even show up in the kde menu's. You didn't mention the packages. Gstreamer plugins won't show up in the menu. These are plumbing that applications such as media players take advantage of. Not something end user consumable. Rahul -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thursday 14 August 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: >On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Here, nothing would import video through the firewire port, even if I >> just hit play on the camera and didn't try remotely controlling the >> player from the computer (which didn't work either). Apparently the >> firewire port does work enough that you can see the camera's been >> recognised, if you look through the system logs. > >We should look at this more closely...probably in another thread. It >might be a kernel regression..or it could be some sort of acl issue >associated with the new authorization scheme that PolicyKit/ConsoleKit >uses for device access. We need to compare notes..but not in this >thread. > >And even if I imported > >> video via Windows, then tried to make use of the already captured files >> in Linux, I got nowhere. And adding every available codec didn't help, >> things, at all. >> >> Again, re-rendering lossy compressed video is to be avoided at all >> costs, it's seriously detrimental to quality. And usually would be >> completely avoidable, anyway, as most editing is "cuts only" which >> doesn't need re-rendering, just interrupting the streams at the right >> moment, and joining two streams together. > >pitivi knows how to deal with dv as source material.. and it does >basic clip sequencing and chopping. I've use it to sequence a couple >of things shot from the panasonic minidv camcorder that I have, and >then used audacity to edit the sound track separately, then mixed the >two together into a final theora video with vorbis audio. A topic for >another thread. > >-jef But, it cannot import directly from the firewire, so without a working dvgrab, that is about as functional as those famous appendages on the tummy of a boar hog. FWIW, I did get kino-1.3.1 built and running, the showstopper was in frame.h in the ffmpeg sub src tree. So I'm a happy camper again & still using F8. I'll email Dan, the edits were very simple and I'd include them here, but the Lawyers would have a cow or 10. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Fats Loves Madelyn. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thursday 14 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote: [...] > >Hope you succeed building new kino Gene! Don't give up. I'll cheer for you > :) > I got that puppy, Antonio! See my other post from 5 minutes ago. 3 edits in a .h file and voila! >Regards, > >Antonio -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Somewhere in DOWNTOWN BURBANK a prostitute is OVERCOOKING a LAMB CHOP!! -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thursday 14 August 2008, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote: >Gene Heskett wrote: >> On Thursday 14 August 2008, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote: >>> I believe these 3 programs are all GUI programs, and even >>> root will get a connection refused message if another user is logged in. >> >> Maybe I'm dense, but what the heck has x running as root, a visual >> interface, got to do with what is supposed to be an audio application? > >What I was trying to say is that if another user is using X, then >even root can not start a GUI program from the command line. You do >not have permission to connect to the X server. Now, if you have >more then one X secession open, then you may have to pass the >display to your program, or set the DISPLAY variable. (DISPLAY is >not set for a CLI login if you started X from another login.) Only one user here, my wife can't even master a session of gedit if I run it for her and then give her this chair. >You run into this problem with any that tryes to connect to the X >server if you do not "own" the X server. (Unless you turn off access >control.) > >With you logged in as root to the GUI, this is not the problem yo >are running into - this is why I asked the question - to determine >if this was your problem. As I don't log into the GUI as root, I am >not sure if it causes problems with PA, but I am guessing that it >does. I have not problems with PA when I am logged in as a normal user. > >If you have some spare time, try logging in as a normal user and see >if that changes anything. If everything works, it is a good >indication of a bug on how root is handled. If it does not work, >then it is a good indication that it is a problem with your specific >hardware/software combination... > >Mikkel I did get kino-1.3.1 built and running just now. :) Thanks Mikkel. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Somewhere in DOWNTOWN BURBANK a prostitute is OVERCOOKING a LAMB CHOP!! -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
--- On Thu, 8/14/08, Gene Heskett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Gene Heskett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0) > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], "For users of Fedora" > Date: Thursday, August 14, 2008, 8:08 PM > On Thursday 14 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote: > [...] > > > >Hope you succeed building new kino Gene! Don't > give up. I'll cheer for you > > :) > > > I got that puppy, Antonio! See my other post from 5 > minutes ago. > > 3 edits in a .h file and voila! Great!!! I got xine-lib-1.1.15 working as well and now I have both xine and mplayer working :) Cheers, Antonio -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Les Mikesell wrote: > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: >> Gmail also encourages top-posting, though at least the quoting mechanism >> is a bit more standard. > > You do know how to move the cursor, don't you? Starting with the cursor > at the top shouldn't encourage you to top-post, it should encourage you > to move down through the quoted text, deleting unwanted context and > adding your response in line in each section. les, have you not noticed that poc always, that i have noticed, starts his 'stop-top-posting' below replier's top-post. [ tho he does tend to leave history. :o) ] my preference would be for cursor to start at 1st quote '>', this would save 3 down arrow strokes and make it easier for 'http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIpPfI+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAsuCAKDDY+V0P2a7p2ap6ENyD8uIJFcnMQCePO8Y 8mjY4mcMp8cIxg6fN529bis= =fWYk -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 10:10 +0930, Tim wrote: > Patrick O'Callaghan: > > Yes it does. If you hit Reply the cursor is left at the top of the > > quoted material and has to be manually moved to the bottom. That to me > > is "encouraging top-posting". I reported this on the Evo Bugzilla a > > while back, and after exchanging views with the devels was told they > > would add an option to change this in a future version. > > If it put blank space above the quoted text, with the cursor there, and > quoted text *further* below, I'd tend to agree. But it doesn't, the > quoted text is right at the top of the page. That's not exactly > conducive to typing there. IIRC this is actually what it used to do (I may be wrong). Why it stopped doing that but didn't go the whole hog and actually put the cursor at the bottom is something I don't understand. The current behaviour looks like something no-one is likely to be happy with. Also, moving the cursor to the bottom can only be done using the mouse, whereas typing a couple of carriage returns and backing up can be done with the keyboard, i.e. it's easier to top-post than not. The insane thing is that it still does this even when you quote selectively, i.e. when it's even more likely that you want to add something *after* the quoted material. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 19:36 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > > > Gmail also encourages top-posting, though at least the quoting mechanism > > is a bit more standard. > > > > You do know how to move the cursor, don't you? I'm going to assume this is a rhetorical question. > Starting with the cursor > at the top shouldn't encourage you to top-post, it should encourage you > to move down through the quoted text, deleting unwanted context and > adding your response in line in each section. OK, let's look at the possibilities: Policy: leave the cursor at the top User wants to top-post: starts typing User wants to bottom-post: has to scroll before typing User wants inline comments: has to scroll before typing Policy: put the cursor at the bottom: User wants to top-post: has to scroll before typing User wants to bottom-post: starts typing User wants inline comments: has to scroll before typing Which of the two policies is more conducive to top-posting? poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > Also, moving the cursor to the bottom can only be done using the mouse, > whereas typing a couple of carriage returns and backing up can be done > with the keyboard, i.e. it's easier to top-post than not. so you are saying page and arrow keys do not work? bummer... - -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIpZeR+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAnSrAKCxkZkfnc7/bM5bZOwxq2tWiVnSvwCg2Nn4 wfdOT+aDnCOxIU/1fAHB0gk= =DDIp -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Tim: >> But it doesn't, the quoted text is right at the top of the page. >> That's not exactly conducive to typing there. Patrick O'Callaghan: > IIRC this is actually what it used to do (I may be wrong). It's what it actually does, here... > Why it stopped doing that but didn't go the whole hog and actually put > the cursor at the bottom is something I don't understand. The current > behaviour looks like something no-one is likely to be happy with. There's just no pleasing some people.../python ;-) > > Also, moving the cursor to the bottom can only be done using the mouse Nup, I didn't need the mouse to move it. If anything, having the mouse at the top is quicker for when first remove extraneous quoted material. Most replies require quite a bit of snippage, often in more than one place. > The insane thing is that it still does this even when you quote > selectively, i.e. when it's even more likely that you want to add > something *after* the quoted material. Yes, in that case, it would make more sense to place the cursor at the end. I'm not saying Evolution's not annoying (he says, smirking at the pun), but I find other clients even more so. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.11-97.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Also, moving the cursor to the bottom can only be done using the mouse, whereas typing a couple of carriage returns and backing up can be done with the keyboard, i.e. it's easier to top-post than not. What interface won't move the cursor with the arrow keys, selecting as you go if you also hold down shift? Normally you can shift-arrow down as you read, stopping at anything you'd like to keep quoted, hit delete to remove the selected part above, go on past the context you want to keep and add your response, then continue down, selecting more to delete. It is all fairly natural and the technique works with anything following user interface standards from the last few decades. I think it goes at least back to IBM's CUA published in 1987. The insane thing is that it still does this even when you quote selectively, i.e. when it's even more likely that you want to add something *after* the quoted material. Why do you care where the editor thinks you want the cursor? Put it where _you_ want it. And delete junk as you go. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 19:36 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Gmail also encourages top-posting, though at least the quoting mechanism is a bit more standard. You do know how to move the cursor, don't you? I'm going to assume this is a rhetorical question. Starting with the cursor at the top shouldn't encourage you to top-post, it should encourage you to move down through the quoted text, deleting unwanted context and adding your response in line in each section. OK, let's look at the possibilities: Policy: leave the cursor at the top User wants to top-post: starts typing User wants to bottom-post: has to scroll before typing User wants inline comments: has to scroll before typing Policy: put the cursor at the bottom: User wants to top-post: has to scroll before typing User wants to bottom-post: starts typing User wants inline comments: has to scroll before typing Which of the two policies is more conducive to top-posting? None of the above. The choice is all up to you. The policies don't determine the location of what you post any more than they determine the content. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 10:43 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: [...] > None of the above. The choice is all up to you. The policies don't > determine the location of what you post any more than they determine the > content. You seem to have completely missed the point of what I'm saying. I am *not* in any way suggesting that the default cursor location is a limitation. How could it be? The very idea is ridiculous. What I *am* saying is that certain policies encourage certain behaviour. IMHO the incidence of top-posting on this and other lists is in some degree caused by these policies, since many users simply can't be bothered moving the cursor from its default position. That's all. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 14:49 +, g wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > > Also, moving the cursor to the bottom can only be done using the mouse, > > whereas typing a couple of carriage returns and backing up can be done > > with the keyboard, i.e. it's easier to top-post than not. > > so you are saying page and arrow keys do not work? bummer... Well, yes I guess you can lean on the arrow keys till you hit the right place. Still not as good as being in the right place to begin with. (Yes, I know there is no unique "right place", but some places are more likely to be right than others). poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 00:45 +0930, Tim wrote: > Tim: > >> But it doesn't, the quoted text is right at the top of the page. > >> That's not exactly conducive to typing there. > > Patrick O'Callaghan: > > IIRC this is actually what it used to do (I may be wrong). > > It's what it actually does, here... Not here. but I suspect you may have reversed the sense of what I was trying to say, which is that Evo 2.22.3 does not insert extra space before the quoted material. Some earlier versions did. > > Why it stopped doing that but didn't go the whole hog and actually put > > the cursor at the bottom is something I don't understand. The current > > behaviour looks like something no-one is likely to be happy with. > > There's just no pleasing some people.../python ;-) > > > > Also, moving the cursor to the bottom can only be done using the mouse > > Nup, I didn't need the mouse to move it. If anything, having the mouse > at the top is quicker for when first remove extraneous quoted material. > Most replies require quite a bit of snippage, often in more than one > place. > > > The insane thing is that it still does this even when you quote > > selectively, i.e. when it's even more likely that you want to add > > something *after* the quoted material. > > Yes, in that case, it would make more sense to place the cursor at the > end. > > I'm not saying Evolution's not annoying (he says, smirking at the pun), > but I find other clients even more so. I agree, which is why I use Evo more than 90% of the time. I still want to make it better though (and the cursor thing is my least important complaint). poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 10:40 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > > > Also, moving the cursor to the bottom can only be done using the mouse, > > whereas typing a couple of carriage returns and backing up can be done > > with the keyboard, i.e. it's easier to top-post than not. [...] > Why do you care where the editor thinks you want the cursor? Put it > where _you_ want it. And delete junk as you go. Because I'm lazy and want it to DWIM (Do What I Mean). You mean to say that's not what everyone wants? poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 10:43 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: [...] None of the above. The choice is all up to you. The policies don't determine the location of what you post any more than they determine the content. You seem to have completely missed the point of what I'm saying. I am *not* in any way suggesting that the default cursor location is a limitation. How could it be? The very idea is ridiculous. What I *am* saying is that certain policies encourage certain behaviour. IMHO the incidence of top-posting on this and other lists is in some degree caused by these policies, since many users simply can't be bothered moving the cursor from its default position. That's all. But the top is the correct position for anyone who intends to move logically through a document, changing it to what they want it to become. If you don't intend to do that, and as you suggest, there are people who don't, there's not much a program can do about it. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > (Yes, I know there is no unique "right place", but some places are more > likely to be right than others). that is what she said. :o) - -- tc,hago. g . in a free world without fences, who needs gates. learn linux: 'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz 'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Red Hat - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIpboN+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAsn2AJwI7Chr/fSQYmLOo0wU2GhqY8xiTACfXEBI imE4rc2aywusqaWt2U4+gDU= =Kp2T -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Also, moving the cursor to the bottom can only be done using the mouse, whereas typing a couple of carriage returns and backing up can be done with the keyboard, i.e. it's easier to top-post than not. [...] Why do you care where the editor thinks you want the cursor? Put it where _you_ want it. And delete junk as you go. Because I'm lazy and want it to DWIM (Do What I Mean). You mean to say that's not what everyone wants? Even if you don't care about cleaning up the context you are about to force everyone else to wade through, you have to be really, really lazy to not be able to punch control-end or control-home to jump from one end to the other. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 12:29 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > >>> Also, moving the cursor to the bottom can only be done using the mouse, > >>> whereas typing a couple of carriage returns and backing up can be done > >>> with the keyboard, i.e. it's easier to top-post than not. > > [...] > >> Why do you care where the editor thinks you want the cursor? Put it > >> where _you_ want it. And delete junk as you go. > > > > Because I'm lazy and want it to DWIM (Do What I Mean). You mean to say > > that's not what everyone wants? > > Even if you don't care about cleaning up the context you are about to > force everyone else to wade through You mean like I just did when replying to you? Why do you keep mixing up the default initial cursor placement with editing the context? > you have to be really, really lazy > to not be able to punch control-end or control-home to jump from one end > to the other. Not so much lazy as ignorant. I have to say I have never heard of this. I've never used an editor where this is the standard (neither vi nor emacs work this way). I see OpenOffice does, but I can't say I think of word-processing commands when using an email composer. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned. BTW the Evo documentation says nothing about it that I can see, neither in the online help nor in the quick reference sheet. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 12:10 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 10:43 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: > > [...] > >> None of the above. The choice is all up to you. The policies don't > >> determine the location of what you post any more than they determine the > >> content. > > > > You seem to have completely missed the point of what I'm saying. I am > > *not* in any way suggesting that the default cursor location is a > > limitation. How could it be? The very idea is ridiculous. What I *am* > > saying is that certain policies encourage certain behaviour. IMHO the > > incidence of top-posting on this and other lists is in some degree > > caused by these policies, since many users simply can't be bothered > > moving the cursor from its default position. > > > > That's all. > > But the top is the correct position for anyone who intends to move > logically through a document, changing it to what they want it to > become. If you don't intend to do that, and as you suggest, there are > people who don't, there's not much a program can do about it. Going round in circles I think. If people aren't going to bother, is it not preferable to leave the cursor at the bottom? If they are going to bother, you just mentioned in another post that this is a keystroke away (something I didn't know). poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Even if you don't care about cleaning up the context you are about to force everyone else to wade through You mean like I just did when replying to you? Why do you keep mixing up the default initial cursor placement with editing the context? They aren't mixed up - they are both something you change to suit yourself regardless of the initial state. you have to be really, really lazy to not be able to punch control-end or control-home to jump from one end to the other. Not so much lazy as ignorant. I have to say I have never heard of this. I've never used an editor where this is the standard (neither vi nor emacs work this way). I see OpenOffice does, but I can't say I think of word-processing commands when using an email composer. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned. I did say that things written in the last 2 decades use the standards that mostly started with IBM's 1987 CUA (common user interface) work. Emacs and vi predate that and don't follow any standards. BTW the Evo documentation says nothing about it that I can see, neither in the online help nor in the quick reference sheet. I'm not sure where to find the current standard interface tricks but the keyboard ones mostly go back to character mode days. But I normally surf the inbox and preview pane with the mouse/scroll wheel (you can hover over the preview window and scroll without losing focus on the header window so up/down/delete keys continue to work there) and use it to click the reply button, so my hand is on the mouse when the reply window opens and it is easiest to just click where I want to start, ignoring the default cursor position. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 12:26 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > What I *am* saying is that certain policies encourage certain > behaviour. IMHO the incidence of top-posting on this and other lists > is in some degree caused by these policies, since many users simply > can't be bothered moving the cursor from its default position. About the only thing that's going to work is a whacking great big prompt *in* the mail client that points to the space below and says: "Type your reply down here." Clues need a clue-by-four. Those that ignore the clue need a red hot branding iron. In all serious, without an explicit instruction, well ahead of time, some people are never going to know better, never mind about those who don't give a damn. Screenshot: http://imagebin.ca/view/BRrykNv.html which is deliberately over-the-top, to be amusing. I had thought of using GIF, so I could make it flash, but I think that might have been going too far. ;-) I tried posting it here, but it didn't seem to make it through. So rather than risk a double *big* post, reposting it, I've put the image separate from the message. If there's a size limit to attachments on this list, I don't know what it is, and it doesn't seem to notify the original poster about any rejections. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.11-97.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 16:58 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > > >> Even if you don't care about cleaning up the context you are about to > >> force everyone else to wade through > > > > You mean like I just did when replying to you? Why do you keep mixing up > > the default initial cursor placement with editing the context? > > They aren't mixed up - they are both something you change to suit > yourself regardless of the initial state. At no time have I said or implied anything different from this. The whole point of this discussion is what is the most convenient location for the cursor under the assumption that we'd like to discourage top-posting. > >> you have to be really, really lazy > >> to not be able to punch control-end or control-home to jump from one end > >> to the other. > > > > Not so much lazy as ignorant. I have to say I have never heard of this. > > I've never used an editor where this is the standard (neither vi nor > > emacs work this way). I see OpenOffice does, but I can't say I think of > > word-processing commands when using an email composer. Maybe I'm just > > old-fashioned. > > I did say that things written in the last 2 decades use the standards > that mostly started with IBM's 1987 CUA (common user interface) work. > Emacs and vi predate that and don't follow any standards. Well I've been using Unix since 1975 and never even heard of this (or have long forgotten it, who knows?). It would be interesting to have a straw poll on this list to see how many people know what it is. Does the GNU documentation make any reference to it? I've just had a look at the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_User_Access), where we find the following gem: "CUA has never had significant impact on Unix terminal applications." > > BTW the Evo documentation says nothing about it that I can see, neither > > in the online help nor in the quick reference sheet. > > I'm not sure where to find the current standard interface tricks but the > keyboard ones mostly go back to character mode days. But I normally > surf the inbox and preview pane with the mouse/scroll wheel (you can > hover over the preview window and scroll without losing focus on the > header window so up/down/delete keys continue to work there) and use it > to click the reply button, so my hand is on the mouse when the reply > window opens and it is easiest to just click where I want to start, > ignoring the default cursor position. IOW, what I said originally: you scroll to where you want. poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 08:52 +0930, Tim wrote: > In all serious, without an explicit instruction, well ahead of time, > some people are never going to know better, never mind about those who > don't give a damn. Well, I disagree. I think the ui can nudge the user in certain directions. In fact my point is that it already *does* nudge the user in certain directions. This is inevitable. > Screenshot: http://imagebin.ca/view/BRrykNv.html which is > deliberately > over-the-top, to be amusing. I had thought of using GIF, so I could > make it flash, but I think that might have been going too far. ;-) Very good :-) poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: I did say that things written in the last 2 decades use the standards that mostly started with IBM's 1987 CUA (common user interface) work. Emacs and vi predate that and don't follow any standards. Well I've been using Unix since 1975 and never even heard of this (or have long forgotten it, who knows?). It would be interesting to have a straw poll on this list to see how many people know what it is. Does the GNU documentation make any reference to it? I've just had a look at the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_User_Access), where we find the following gem: "CUA has never had significant impact on Unix terminal applications." Unix 'terminal' applications were mostly written before there was a standard terminal keyboard, much less a standard for using key modifiers along with cursor motion keys. Before the IBM PC you could barely count on having a control key, and if you had arrow keys, shift and control weren't likely to work with them. But, we aren't talking about terminal applications. GUI applications have an evolving human interface standard that most things follow to one extent or another, and most of the current versions inherited their design from Motif which followed CUA. I spend about equal amounts of time in windows/linux/mac apps and they mostly use the same motion/selection methods. I think these days you'd learn them in early grade school or in a 'keyboarding' class required before high school. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 11:24 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > > question of functionality. The only thing breaching the functionality > > issue is a dumbass ideology that needs to be decided in court. > > You appear very confused. Courts enforce the law and in some parts of the We're not talking about interpretation or enforcement of the law, idiot. We are talking about the legal interpretation of a license via court precedent. You're the only one that's mentioned the word "law". > You need to direct your efforts into changing the law in problem > countries like the USA. > > Alan > LX -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
> precedent. You're the only one that's mentioned the word "law". "The interpretaion of a licence via court precedent" to quote you would be the law (or more properly the legal system). Defined by politicians and interpreted by the courts. Thus what dictates the content of Fedora and what can lawfully be shipped is the law, which is defined by the politicial process. The Fedora Project can only ship those items which it is permitted in law to ship. That means it must respect trademark, copyright and patent law in the countries in which it is based and operates. Nor can the Fedora project change the licences in software it ships - almost without exception it is not the copyright holder of the components in question. Alan -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 03:07 -0400, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: > On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 21:40 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 7:50 PM, Gene Heskett > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Nah. I've used kino before. The button has been pushed, and > > Ubuntu 8.04 is > > coming in via ktorrent right now. > > > > Good for you. It's important to find a solution that works for you. > > For your sake, I sincerely hope that Canonical never reaches > > profitability. So that they will never have to re-evaluate their > > exposure to the potential legal risk that software patents represent > > to their business model in the jurisdictions where they sell and > > service their product..so you'll never have to go distro shopping > > again. > > > > -jef > > Fantastic work, Jeff. Now we have yet another loyal fedora user jumping > ship to go to ubuntu, after being told: > > 1. You need to put up with the crappy apps you already have > > 2. You need to use your valuable time on this earth to code and not > actually use the computer -- to help us with our crappy forced-licensing > ideology which is never going to work anyway btw > > 3. Oh, you're going to Ubuntu? Rots of ruck. > > You know, one big brass-balled difference between M$ and Red Hat is > that, at MicroSoft, they tell the lawyers what to do. At Red Hat, the > lawyers tell Red Hat what to do. I'm seeing that it's a big f*king > difference. > > This is the kind of dumb shit Alan Cox mentality that is killing Fedora. > I've heard enough excuses, it's done; there's no excuse at all for > another distro cleaning your clock when you were on the top of the heap > in the first place. Why is it that Ubuntu just works without excuses, > and then on the fedora list all we hear is whah whah explanations and > justifications? It's patently absurd when the infrastructure of Red Hat > itself is in fact RUNNING THE USERS OFF! > > Oh yeah let me read the script from the peanut gallery that's entering > stage right; "duh, shut up I don't want to hear it... whine whine excuse > whine excuse.etc." > > Let's see how many more you run off. I installed CentOS which is as close to FC6 as you can get, I have all of my applications, my multimedia working, KDE 3.5.4, and even Xvfb works like a charm. Imagine that! Now I don't even CARE that it never works with Fedora. No more gripes! I can depend on my machine behaving like it did yesterday and the day before, it's all good. Everyone has been right, install CentOS if it's a soft ride you're looking for. My favorite vehicle has always been an older Cadillac! But, I'd definitely install Kubuntu to Mom's machine. I created another partition, installed Kubuntu to it, and there are some things I absolutely love about it, and some that I despise. CentOS is right there solidly in the middle between Fedora and Ubuntu. Happy as a clam, no mo' bitchin', Ric -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 06:16 -0700, Craig White wrote: > On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 05:24 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: > > On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote: > > [...] > > > > > >This is the same stuff/error that kills vlc from building when compiling > > > from source. It asked for ffmpeg, I got that and installed it, it then > > > complains about ffmeg-devel and I get it and install it and it still > > > complains about not having it. I know I can get vlc from livna and I > > > have > > > done that, but I wanted to build it from source so I can easily update, > > > but > > > it does not work :( > > > > > >Try to install it via yum. Enable livna or freshrpms and install it from > > > there. I guess it might be the best way? > > > > Someone said livna was up to kino-1.3.0, but all I can see is 1.2.0, and it > > insults our intelligence by needing that worthless POS pulseaudio. > > > > Put me on a list so you can let me know when pulseaudio works. Or if it > > now > > works in some private lab setting, how to make it work on an F8 x86 system. > > > > I nuked that with extreme prejudice when I installed F8, and haven't had a > > lick of trouble with my audio since. AFAIC its just another aggravation > > foisted off on us to remind us this is a "bleeding edge" distro and that we > > should not ever expect it to "just work". > > I think that you completely misunderstand the point of pulseaudio but > that is your prerogative but it's unfair for you to spread the FUD > > I'm sure it will come as a shock to you to find that pulseaudio is also > included in Ubuntu. I didn't see that it was installed by default. I see it "unchecked" in the Kubuntu package manager, and I just left it that way. Ric -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Mon, 2008-08-18 at 23:56 -0400, Ric Moore wrote: > I installed CentOS which is as close to FC6 as you can get, I have all > of my applications, my multimedia working, KDE 3.5.4, and even Xvfb > works like a charm. Imagine that! Now I don't even CARE that it never > works with Fedora. No more gripes! I'm just curious which you're using for your other pet project (the rehab thing you've been developing). Because it strikes me that you'd want a longer term base for any project that you're going to have other people make use of. I've had a bit of a dabble with CentOS, but mostly for server reasons. I have to get around to moving our mail server over from Fedora Core 4 to CentOS, but the process has been complicated by wanting to move the IMAP server from using mbox files to maildir, at the same time, and without playing drag-n-drop games through a mail client. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ uname -r 2.6.25.14-108.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 17:47 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 14:42 -0700, Antonio Olivares wrote: > > Of course I am not asking that Fedora to include it. I am not stupid > > and do not want to hurt Fedora in any way shape or form. I am stating > > that those programs that help in editing video and producing stuff > > that is *very hard* to make it work in Fedora, to try it out with some > > free software/or proprietary software for the EvilEmpireOS via wine > > and see if it works or not? > > Sorry if I misunderstood you Antonio (I thought you were proposing a > workaround to the license/patent problems). > > OT: you *really* should take a look at your mail client (Yahoo > apparently). The long lines and the lack of attribution in citations > make your posts really quite hard to read. I'd recommend gmail over yahoo any day of the week. I don't know if they still require "invites" but I have a zillion of them to give away. Ric -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 19:36 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > > > Gmail also encourages top-posting, though at least the quoting mechanism > > is a bit more standard. > > > > You do know how to move the cursor, don't you? Starting with the cursor > at the top shouldn't encourage you to top-post, it should encourage you > to move down through the quoted text, deleting unwanted context and > adding your response in line in each section. Great Minds! Ric -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 19:53 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 00:01 +, g wrote: > > switch to gmail and set up configurations. > > Gmail also encourages top-posting, though at least the quoting mechanism > is a bit more standard. It could also be said that it encourages the user to start at the top, to remove all the cruft, as you go downwards to where you compose your reply. Otherwise the lazy would start at the bottom and just add their two-cents without removing extraneous text. It's all in the perspectives. But for someone to say "I top-post because Gmail made me do it!", has some real problems with the up-arrow / down-arrow keys. Ric -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
Ric Moore wrote: > > It could also be said that it encourages the user to start at the top, > to remove all the cruft, as you go downwards to where you compose your > reply. > > Otherwise the lazy would start at the bottom and just add their > two-cents without removing extraneous text. It's all in the > perspectives. But for someone to say "I top-post because Gmail made me > do it!", has some real problems with the up-arrow / down-arrow keys. > Ric > We see enough of that type of reply on this list. You know it is bad when they don't even trim out the signatures or mailing list footers. Mikkel -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Tue, 2008-08-19 at 17:44 -0400, Ric Moore wrote: > On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 19:53 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 00:01 +, g wrote: > > > switch to gmail and set up configurations. > > > > Gmail also encourages top-posting, though at least the quoting mechanism > > is a bit more standard. > > It could also be said that it encourages the user to start at the top, > to remove all the cruft, as you go downwards to where you compose your > reply. > > Otherwise the lazy would start at the bottom and just add their > two-cents without removing extraneous text. At the moment most of them start at the top and don't remove the extraneous text, which by some lights is worse. > It's all in the > perspectives. But for someone to say "I top-post because Gmail made me > do it!", has some real problems with the up-arrow / down-arrow keys. Nobody says it because they don't even notice. We've been over all this before days ago Ric (read the rest of the thread). poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)
On Tue, 2008-08-19 at 17:38 -0400, Ric Moore wrote: > I'd recommend gmail over yahoo any day of the week. I don't know if > they still require "invites" but I have a zillion of them to give > away. Ric They don't. It's still Beta though :-) poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
