Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
2008/12/12 Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at: Jeff Spaleta wrote: That's a question I don't have an answer for. Epoch could have been bumped to handle the version downgrade for a reversion. I think this was the first mention of reverting the dbus update that I have seen in discussion. Actually I already suggested it. It could have been done without an Epoch bump, by pushing an 1.2.6-2 build with just the security policy change reverted using a patch. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines Does the maintainer read this list? He still works on it (in koji) but it seams he doesn't know that the user are using his broken update -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:35 AM, Joshua C. joshua...@googlemail.com wrote: Does the maintainer read this list? He still works on it (in koji) but it seams he doesn't know that the user are using his broken update He's aware.. he's apologized publicly in the -devel-list. -jef -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:35 AM, Joshua C. joshua...@googlemail.com wrote: Does the maintainer read this list? He still works on it (in koji) but it seams he doesn't know that the user are using his broken update He's aware.. he's apologized publicly in the -devel-list. -jef in a world where people are simply used to windows crashing and burning on a regular basis, it's amusing to see the consternation in the linux community when one bad package escapes into the wild. man, some of you folks have gotten spoiled. rday -- Robert P. J. Day Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry: Have classroom, will lecture. http://crashcourse.ca Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:35 AM, Joshua C. joshua...@googlemail.com wrote: Does the maintainer read this list? He still works on it (in koji) but it seams he doesn't know that the user are using his broken update He's aware.. he's apologized publicly in the -devel-list. in a world where people are simply used to windows crashing and burning on a regular basis, it's amusing to see the consternation in the linux community when one bad package escapes into the wild. man, some of you folks have gotten spoiled. Sorry to destroy your illusions, but I work with hundreds of windows servers that stay up for years with only a few scheduled reboots. Before (say) Win2k SP2 you might have been able to make a point about this. Today you can't. -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Robert P. J. Day rpj...@crashcourse.ca wrote: On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:35 AM, Joshua C. joshua...@googlemail.com wrote: Does the maintainer read this list? He still works on it (in koji) but it seams he doesn't know that the user are using his broken update He's aware.. he's apologized publicly in the -devel-list. -jef in a world where people are simply used to windows crashing and burning on a regular basis, it's amusing to see the consternation in the linux community when one bad package escapes into the wild. man, some of you folks have gotten spoiled. rday I have to admit, not having to do weekly virus+spyware+defrag+updates does get one lazy. -- Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin ( www.pembo13.com ) -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
Arthur Pemberton wrote: On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Robert P. J. Day rpj...@crashcourse.ca wrote: On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:35 AM, Joshua C. joshua...@googlemail.com wrote: Does the maintainer read this list? He still works on it (in koji) but it seams he doesn't know that the user are using his broken update He's aware.. he's apologized publicly in the -devel-list. -jef in a world where people are simply used to windows crashing and burning on a regular basis, it's amusing to see the consternation in the linux community when one bad package escapes into the wild. man, some of you folks have gotten spoiled. rday I have to admit, not having to do weekly virus+spyware+defrag+updates does get one lazy. Excuse me? YUM is completely broken! What the #$@$ am I supposed to do now but wait? Until January? This is a period of time when most companies have a code freeze. I will be amazed if ReadHat does not take to the same. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Alex Makhlin makhl...@gmail.com wrote: Arthur Pemberton wrote: [ snip ] I have to admit, not having to do weekly virus+spyware+defrag+updates does get one lazy. Excuse me? YUM is completely broken! What the #$@$ am I supposed to do now but wait? Until January? This is a period of time when most companies have a code freeze. I will be amazed if ReadHat does not take to the same. I have no idea what you're talking about. And I'm slightly worried for you. -- Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin ( www.pembo13.com ) -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:53:59 -0800, Alex wrote: Excuse me? YUM is completely broken! How? What the #$@$ am I supposed to do now but wait? Until January? Wait for what? This is a period of time when most companies have a code freeze. Fedora is not a company. I will be amazed if ReadHat does not take to the same. What or who is ReadHat? Perhaps you mean Red Hat? I'm not sure, because that has been pointed out to you before. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
2008/12/12 Jeff Spaleta jspal...@gmail.com: On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:35 AM, Joshua C. joshua...@googlemail.com wrote: Does the maintainer read this list? He still works on it (in koji) but it seams he doesn't know that the user are using his broken update He's aware.. he's apologized publicly in the -devel-list. -jef -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines I haven't read the post, but in this case i have to apologize for my comments, too. I know that a pckage can escape in the wild but in my opinion he has to revert the change and bump the version number, so that everything goes back to normal. --joshua -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 3:50 PM, Michael Schwendt mschwe...@gmail.com wrote: What or who is ReadHat? Perhaps you mean Red Hat? I'm not sure, because that has been pointed out to you before. It seems there is such a thing as write-only email... poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
ohhh gawwd... indeed, a disappointment to see this sort of thing; not the reassuring premier, membership e-mail to receive, eh? ... for such a /mature/ project as Fedora? (albeit, i do have a knack for /timing/, so to speak. No doubt, however, Time will tell-- also /so to speak/.) ach! oh well. one must persevere, knowing that tolerance-- err-- since tolerance appears to have its limits for the numbed-so skull, and other petty annoyances, not unlike this very example details the sort whereof i find my own gut is nauseated aww-- such is life. it's only Castles burning. toot-a-lue On 12/12/08, Patrick O'Callaghan pocallag...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 3:50 PM, Michael Schwendt mschwe...@gmail.com wrote: What or who is ReadHat? Perhaps you mean Red Hat? I'm not sure, because that has been pointed out to you before. It seems there is such a thing as write-only email... poc -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines -- Visit www.NoviceNotes.Net -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
On Friday 12 December 2008, Les Mikesell wrote: Robert P. J. Day wrote: On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:35 AM, Joshua C. joshua...@googlemail.com wrote: Does the maintainer read this list? He still works on it (in koji) but it seams he doesn't know that the user are using his broken update He's aware.. he's apologized publicly in the -devel-list. in a world where people are simply used to windows crashing and burning on a regular basis, it's amusing to see the consternation in the linux community when one bad package escapes into the wild. man, some of you folks have gotten spoiled. Sorry to destroy your illusions, but I work with hundreds of windows servers that stay up for years with only a few scheduled reboots. Before (say) Win2k SP2 you might have been able to make a point about this. Today you can't. Heck Les, that was even true of W95, with one exception, you had to reboot it every 48 days or the tick counter rolled over and it went face down in the deep end. W-95 itself was stable, and so was that old server version of AP-NewsDesk. If a newsie can crash a windows box, they will (I think they teach that as a requisite in journalism schools), and they can invent some very creative ways to crash and burn the boxes under their desks, but the central server? The only reboots were every 45 days, and we changed the postit on the box for the next date each time. -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Charlie was a chemist, But Charlie is no more. For what he thought was H2O, Was H2SO4. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Michael Cronenworth m...@cchtml.com wrote: Where was this discussed? Where was this tested? The maintainer responsible for the push already apologized publicly for pushing to stable: http://cgwalters.livejournal.com/22189.html https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-December/msg00812.html Pushing to stable was not intended and was done by mistake. Shall I have him brought to the Board Room and flogged for his incompetence? Mistakes happen. I very much expect Colin will be making a personal extra effort to careful for awhile, to ensure he doesn't make that sort of mistake again. Why wasn't the change *REVERTED* immediately? That's a question I don't have an answer for. Epoch could have been bumped to handle the version downgrade for a reversion. I think this was the first mention of reverting the dbus update that I have seen in discussion. I will say that there is a general problem in reverting. Once a package is in the wild, and a subset of affected packages are submited as updates to match it, reverting may not be a silver bullet as it would require reverting subsequent updates. I don't know if this is the case. Reverting policy is something for FESCo to talk about I think. -jef -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
Original Message Subject: Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release? From: Jeff Spaleta jspal...@gmail.com To: Community assistance, encouragement, and advice for using Fedora. fedora-list@redhat.com Date: 12/11/2008 12:42 PM http://cgwalters.livejournal.com/22189.html https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-December/msg00812.html Thanks for pointing out those posts. The fedora-devel thread was quite long and I stopped following it. I assume most other users are in the dark as well and I wanted to start a thread on it. Instead of having a thousand PackageKit is broke threads, a dbus thread was called for. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Michael Cronenworth m...@cchtml.com wrote: Thanks for pointing out those posts. The fedora-devel thread was quite long and I stopped following it. I assume most other users are in the dark as well and I wanted to start a thread on it. Instead of having a thousand PackageKit is broke threads, a dbus thread was called for. Dbus hasn't been the only package affected by a pre-mature push to stable. Its happened to less critical applications as well. I've had applications I had to scramble to update because a dep was pushed directly into stable by another maintainer. We have to be very careful about finding the balance between protecting users from human error without overburdening maintainers with a set of bureaucracy that makes it more difficult for them to contribute. Part of that balance could be having more automated testing.. but that sort of thing takes people to develop and implement. If there was a general call made for new contributors to help implement more automated testing would you step up and help write code to implement that? -jef -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:42:45 -0900 Jeff Spaleta jspal...@gmail.com wrote: Pushing to stable was not intended and was done by mistake. Shall I have him brought to the Board Room and flogged for his incompetence? Mistakes happen. I very much expect Colin will be making a personal extra effort to careful for awhile, to ensure he doesn't make that sort of mistake again. To the best of my knowledge, the oldpackage flag still works for RPM. I have sawed off enough limbs that I was sitting on to empathize with the developer but it's NOT the end of the world. Apparently, only gay marriage in California can create that dilemma. -- Neither Lifestyle nor Agenda http://www.tips-Q.com -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
Original Message Subject: Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release? From: Jeff Spaleta jspal...@gmail.com To: Community assistance, encouragement, and advice for using Fedora. fedora-list@redhat.com Date: 12/11/2008 01:03 PM Dbus hasn't been the only package affected by a pre-mature push to stable. Its happened to less critical applications as well. I've had applications I had to scramble to update because a dep was pushed directly into stable by another maintainer. The dbus security policy change was the heart of the issue. If it had been reverted, other packages would not have needed to be changed. I'm not saying the change would need to be permanently reverted either nor am I calling for anyone's head. We have to be very careful about finding the balance between protecting users from human error without overburdening maintainers with a set of bureaucracy that makes it more difficult for them to contribute. I'm not oblivious to this fact. Part of that balance could be having more automated testing.. but that sort of thing takes people to develop and implement. If there was a general call made for new contributors to help implement more automated testing would you step up and help write code to implement that? Automated X-driven testing? Nothing exists yet, correct? I would love to have something to test my software at work. Is there a SIG or mailing list of folks willing to do such a thing? Yes, I'd be willing to help. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 12:21 PM, Michael Cronenworth m...@cchtml.com wrote: The dbus security policy change was the heart of the issue. Its the issue that got noticed by a significant number of users. Anyone who watches the broken dep reports which are generated for package maintainers knows that pre-mature pushes to stable happen sporadically for more niche parts of the software collection. The pre-mature push to stable isn't anything earth shattering, it just happened to be high profile this time. So no the dbus update itself is not the heart of the problem, its just the most obvious symptom and one of the more complicated case since its deeply subtle breakage which affects multiple applications. Honestly I'm having a hard time even thinking about how you would run an automated test that would have caught this breakage, unless you were already expecting it. And if you were expecting it...then what's the point of the test. Automated X-driven testing? Nothing exists yet, correct? I would love to have something to test my software at work. Is there a SIG or mailing list of folks willing to do such a thing? Yes, I'd be willing to help. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA -jef -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
Original Message Subject: Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release? From: Jeff Spaleta jspal...@gmail.com To: Community assistance, encouragement, and advice for using Fedora. fedora-list@redhat.com Date: 12/11/2008 03:36 PM Honestly I'm having a hard time even thinking about how you would run an automated test that would have caught this breakage, unless you were already expecting it. And if you were expecting it...then what's the point of the test. $ system-config-services ERROR:dbus.proxies:Introspect error.. [snipped] I've joined QA. Danke. Excuse my ignorance. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Why was this dbus disaster released mid-release?
Jeff Spaleta wrote: That's a question I don't have an answer for. Epoch could have been bumped to handle the version downgrade for a reversion. I think this was the first mention of reverting the dbus update that I have seen in discussion. Actually I already suggested it. It could have been done without an Epoch bump, by pushing an 1.2.6-2 build with just the security policy change reverted using a patch. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
