Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-23 Thread Tim
On Fri, 2008-08-22 at 13:40 +0200, Timothy Murphy wrote:
> So you use the term "automatic" to mean that
> the program should work without user intervention?
> There are many programs of this kind, eg the kernel,
> but they are not normally described as "automatic".

It doesn't matter what you think the word means, the word means what it
does.  That it sorts out the behind-the-scenes mechanics of an operation
by itself.

I have no disagreements with your annoyance about its lack of useful
documentation and error handling.  It doesn't handle errors gracefully,
such as notification that "automatic configuration hasn't succeeded,
would you like to (a) try again, (b) manually handle things, (c) abort.

Hopefully, not like the infamous abort/retry/fail of DOS.



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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-22 Thread Timothy Murphy
Tim wrote:

>> 2) I don't believe NM is "automatic", whatever that means.
> 
> There's no mystery to what the word automatic means.  The system sorts
> itself out, according to how it was designed.  i.e. No manual
> intervention required.

So you use the term "automatic" to mean that
the program should work without user intervention?
There are many programs of this kind, eg the kernel,
but they are not normally described as "automatic".

To my mind, the term "automatic" is just a sales term
meaning, "I hope this program will work on any machine
and any configuration you throw at it".

It seems to be used in the case of NM
as an excuse for the complete lack of documentation.

I prefer a program which hopefully works without user intervention,
but which if it does not work gives the user at least a hint
of why it is not working, and what one might do about it.
In other words, basic documentation.


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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-22 Thread Tim
Tim:
>> It's *always* been the case that automatic /somethings/ aren't
>> suitable for all situations (cars with automatic transmissions have
>> problems in some conditions, auto-focus lenses make mistakes under
>> many conditions, etc.).

Timothy Murphy:
> 3) If I had an automatic car that did not work
> I would not be happy if the garage told me
> that the solution was to get another car.

With automatic cars one accepts the case that they're not always going
to be the best thing, and that occasionally one has to manually select
some gears (and I don't just mean forward/drive or reverse).

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-22 Thread Tim
Timothy Murphy:
> 1) NM is actually working fine for me.

Mostly it is here, though it didn't on one computer.

> 2) I don't believe NM is "automatic", whatever that means.

There's no mystery to what the word automatic means.  The system sorts
itself out, according to how it was designed.  i.e. No manual
intervention required.

> It is pretty obvious if you look at it
> that NM stores quite a lot of information.

Doesn't preclude it things from automatic, that's part of its automatic
system.  There's all sorts of things that are (or can be) automatic, as
far as the user's concerned (DHCP network address assignments, mounting
of media, etc.).  For the most part, these generally work for a lot of
people.  They don't work for everybody or all circumstances, that's why
there's alternatives.

> 3) If I had an automatic car that did not work
> I would not be happy if the garage told me
> that the solution was to get another car.

There's an entirely different situation to taking a car back to just
using some other software.  Even more so when you've already got it.

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-22 Thread Timothy Murphy
Tim wrote:

>> it's rather annoying to be told something works automatically
>> if in fact it doesn't work for you.
>> It doesn't leave much room for advice on what to do about it.
> 
> The answer's rather obvious:  If it doesn't work for you, then use
> something *else* that's not automatic.  It's *always* been the case that
> automatic /somethings/ aren't suitable for all situations (cars with
> automatic transmissions have problems in some conditions, auto-focus
> lenses make mistakes under many conditions, etc.).


1) NM is actually working fine for me.

2) I don't believe NM is "automatic", whatever that means.
It is pretty obvious if you look at it
that NM stores quite a lot of information.
Also the minuscule NM documentation suggests that
it does look at /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ .

3) If I had an automatic car that did not work
I would not be happy if the garage told me
that the solution was to get another car.


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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-21 Thread Tim
On Thu, 2008-08-21 at 18:31 +0200, Timothy Murphy wrote:
> it's rather annoying to be told something works automatically
> if in fact it doesn't work for you.
> It doesn't leave much room for advice on what to do about it.

The answer's rather obvious:  If it doesn't work for you, then use
something *else* that's not automatic.  It's *always* been the case that
automatic /somethings/ aren't suitable for all situations (cars with
automatic transmissions have problems in some conditions, auto-focus
lenses make mistakes under many conditions, etc.).

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-21 Thread Timothy Murphy
Jeff Spaleta wrote:

> NM does most of what it does automatically.

But it's rather annoying to be told something works automatically
if in fact it doesn't work for you.
It doesn't leave much room for advice on what to do about it.


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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ?? [SOLVED -- for now]

2008-08-18 Thread Aaron Konstam
On Sun, 2008-08-17 at 15:23 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> On Sun, 2008-08-17 at 13:09 -0400, William Case wrote:
> > Hi Aaron et al;
> > 
> > This is my last post (for a while) on this subject.  Actually the
> > answers are quite simple.  Just after spending $45 for "Understanding
> > Linux Network Internals" (but not yet delivered) it came to me what
> > everyone was saying.
> > 
> > Below I have tried out my own explanation.  No response is required
> > other than to add to the conversation if you want.  I am going to
> > spend
> > a week or so diving into the whole network question.  When I come up
> > for
> > air I might have a question or two.
> > 
> > By the way, there is one thing I do NOT have an answer to.  Several
> > people, Jeff in particular, have made reference to the info, settings
> > etc. that are in gconf.  I have searched /etc/gconf, ~/.gconf and
> > gconf-editor and can find no network or NetworkManager data or keys
> > whatsoever.  If I am looking in the wrong place or for the wrong info,
> > please tell me.  If it should be there, please point to name or tree
> > so
> > I can find it.  Help me fix it if I reply (in a new thread) that I
> > definitely do NOT have such data. 
> I  can't find all the connection activity I had found previously but in
> gconf-editor there is a database called:
> system->networking->connections which contains subdirectories that
> contain some connection info.
And gnome-keyring-manager will allow you to see the passwds.
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-17 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan
On Sun, 2008-08-17 at 15:55 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 5:46 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Or am I misunderstanding something?
> 
> 
> I think you should get acquainted with the NM roadmap, specifically
> the work concerning how user connections are going to be publishable
> as system wide settings so NM can bring up interfaces at boot
> 
> And if you are KDE user then you should check in with how kde4.1 plans
> to interfaces with NM.  I'm not a kde user, so I can't tell you. All I
> can tell you is that the release notes for kde 4 and the betas leading
> up to 4.1 have mentioned NM integration.  There's absolutely no reason
> that each and every desktop that wants to can implement its on user
> session daemon to communicate with the system level daemon via D-Bus.
> I'm pretty sure for KDE 4.x there is something native to fill the role
> that nm-applet does. But since I'm not a KDE users I'm not going to
> pretend to understand it to the point of explaining it.

Fair enough. It's just that your previous posts imply that this has
something to do with NM itself, not nm-applet. However I see that
although NM is a Gnome project it is designed to allow a variety of
"info-managers" including GConf, LDAP, KConfig etc. See
http://live.gnome.org/NetworkManagerConfiguration

I'll need to read more to understand how this is going to work when the
same machine is running several different desktops at the same time.

poc

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-17 Thread Jeff Spaleta
On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 5:46 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Or am I misunderstanding something?


I think you should get acquainted with the NM roadmap, specifically
the work concerning how user connections are going to be publishable
as system wide settings so NM can bring up interfaces at boot

And if you are KDE user then you should check in with how kde4.1 plans
to interfaces with NM.  I'm not a kde user, so I can't tell you. All I
can tell you is that the release notes for kde 4 and the betas leading
up to 4.1 have mentioned NM integration.  There's absolutely no reason
that each and every desktop that wants to can implement its on user
session daemon to communicate with the system level daemon via D-Bus.
I'm pretty sure for KDE 4.x there is something native to fill the role
that nm-applet does. But since I'm not a KDE users I'm not going to
pretend to understand it to the point of explaining it.

-jef
.

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ?? [SOLVED] kinda

2008-08-17 Thread William Case
Thanks for your time and thoughtful explanation Marko;

On Sun, 2008-08-17 at 20:49 +, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> Ok, can I give it a try to help clear things up? Not that I am an expert on 
> the subject, but hopefully... :-) Somebody please correct me if I get 
> something wrong here.
[BIG SNIP]

I have copied and pasted your explanation into the notes I am keeping.
You come close to describing what I have come to understand over the
last week.

It would probably been more clear if I had had system => networking =>
connections showing in my gconf-editor.  Now I have to figure out how to
fix that.  I think I will start with a yum remove and yum install
gconf-editor.

I am not sure whether networking data was in there originally and got
removed by my messing around, or was never there.

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ?? [SOLVED -- for now]

2008-08-17 Thread William Case
Thank you very much Aaron;

I am not going crazy!


On Sun, 2008-08-17 at 15:23 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> On Sun, 2008-08-17 at 13:09 -0400, William Case wrote:
[snip]
> I  can't find all the connection activity I had found previously but in
> gconf-editor there is a database called:
> system->networking->connections which contains subdirectories that
> contain some connection info.

My gconf-editor has 'system' which includes things like dns_sd;
gstreamer; http_proxy; etc.  But definitely,no => networking; and no =>
networking => connections.

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ?? [SOLVED] kinda

2008-08-17 Thread Marko Vojinovic

Ok, can I give it a try to help clear things up? Not that I am an expert on 
the subject, but hopefully... :-) Somebody please correct me if I get 
something wrong here.

When we speak of "network", there are several layers at work here.

First, there is hardware. Cables, network cards at their ends and such. Your 
particular host machine may have two network cards, for example (wired and 
wireless, typically for a laptop). These network cards, the *hardware*, are 
called "network interfaces". They are present in your computer whether you 
like it or not, and can have a "state", for example they can be "active" or 
"inactive" and such.

Next there is the kernel. It has drivers and other software to communicate 
with other computers using the network cards, ie. interfaces. This software 
(inside the kernel) encompasses various protocols, firewall, settings, 
parameters etc. You may wish to take a look at /proc/net for a feel of it. 
The kernel is responsible for actual communication, it holds inside the 
settings such as IP number of each interface, its current state and such.

Then there are various utilities that are used to setup and configure these 
settings in the kernel. It goes along the way of conversation like:

utility: "Please, could you set the IP for eth0 interface to be 10.0.0.1?"
kernel: "Ok, it is set, from now on eth0 operates with this IP."
utility: "Please, could you drop any udp packets coming from 1.2.3.4 if they 
are not a response to an outgoing connection?"
kernel: "Ok, the appropriate firewall rule is set up."
utility: "Please, could you tell me if wlan0 interface is active and 
configured?"
kernel: "No, the wlan0 interface is not active, but is configured."

(I hope you get the idea.) Various utilities are used to set up various 
aspects of communication. These utilities include ifconfig, ip, iptables, 
arp, rarp, tc, and so on. These utilities also have appropriate config files 
which they consult when asking the kernel to do this or that. Some of these 
config files reside under /etc/sysconfig/network*, while other reside 
elsewhere (for example, resolv.conf resides in /etc).

Now here is the catch. There may be more than one utility to perform the same 
configuration of network interfaces. These utilities that do equivalent job 
may have config files that differ or contradict each other. This means that 
*only one* of those should be used, in order to avoid potential havoc.

At this point let me simplify a bit --- there are basically *two* utilities 
that do this on a Fedora system. One is the script /etc/init.d/network (go 
take a look at it) which does its job by looking at appropriate config files 
(those in /etc/sysconfig/network*) and calls some executables (like /sbin/ip) 
to do the job. Another is the NetworkManager, which has its config files 
elsewhere and does all on its own or uses other executables (or maybe the 
same?).

Now having, say, two network interfaces on the system, you may choose to 
configure for example eth0 using the /etc/init.d/network, while wlan0 using 
NetworkManager. This is ok, as long as you say to *both* of these services to 
"ignore the other interface". As for /etc/init.d/network, you tell it to 
ignore wlan0 by starting system-config-network gui and clicking appropriate 
checkmark, or manually editing a file under /etc/sysconfig/network*. As for 
NetworkManager I don't know, but guess that there should be some way to tell 
it to ignore some interface (btw, the system-config-network gui has 
*absolutely nothing* to do with NetworkManager --- it is merely a gui for the 
files under /etc/sysconfig/network* which NM doesn't use at all). Given all 
this, if you configure everything properly, you would want *both* 
NetworkManager service and network service active under 
system-config-services. But it is usually easier to configure only one of 
them for all interfaces and shut down the other, in order to avoid confusion.
Which one you would want to use is up to your preference and needs, because 
the two tools use different paradigms to function and one may be better 
suited over the other for a particular task. Hence both are included in 
Fedora.

Having all that in mind, you should be aware that there is no daemon to 
control the network --- the kernel does this, and these utilities merely 
communicate to the kernel to ask for this or that behavior. This means that 
you can use one tool (NM) to configure eth0 interface, and then use another 
(service network status) to ask the kernel for the status of eth0. This is 
why the sequence

# service network stop
# service network status

gives you the output that seems confusing at first glance. The NetworkManager 
has configured and activated eth0, so it is active no matter that service 
network is stopped. Service network is probably configured not to touch eth0 
(because it is serviced by NM) so when you say "stop" it doesn't stop eth0, 
but rather ignores it. This is the action of the appropriate 

Re: network vs NetworkManger services ?? [SOLVED -- for now]

2008-08-17 Thread Aaron Konstam
On Sun, 2008-08-17 at 13:09 -0400, William Case wrote:
> Hi Aaron et al;
> 
> This is my last post (for a while) on this subject.  Actually the
> answers are quite simple.  Just after spending $45 for "Understanding
> Linux Network Internals" (but not yet delivered) it came to me what
> everyone was saying.
> 
> Below I have tried out my own explanation.  No response is required
> other than to add to the conversation if you want.  I am going to
> spend
> a week or so diving into the whole network question.  When I come up
> for
> air I might have a question or two.
> 
> By the way, there is one thing I do NOT have an answer to.  Several
> people, Jeff in particular, have made reference to the info, settings
> etc. that are in gconf.  I have searched /etc/gconf, ~/.gconf and
> gconf-editor and can find no network or NetworkManager data or keys
> whatsoever.  If I am looking in the wrong place or for the wrong info,
> please tell me.  If it should be there, please point to name or tree
> so
> I can find it.  Help me fix it if I reply (in a new thread) that I
> definitely do NOT have such data. 
I  can't find all the connection activity I had found previously but in
gconf-editor there is a database called:
system->networking->connections which contains subdirectories that
contain some connection info.
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ?? [SOLVED -- for now]

2008-08-17 Thread William Case
Hi Aaron et al;

This is my last post (for a while) on this subject.  Actually the
answers are quite simple.  Just after spending $45 for "Understanding
Linux Network Internals" (but not yet delivered) it came to me what
everyone was saying.

Below I have tried out my own explanation.  No response is required
other than to add to the conversation if you want.  I am going to spend
a week or so diving into the whole network question.  When I come up for
air I might have a question or two.

By the way, there is one thing I do NOT have an answer to.  Several
people, Jeff in particular, have made reference to the info, settings
etc. that are in gconf.  I have searched /etc/gconf, ~/.gconf and
gconf-editor and can find no network or NetworkManager data or keys
whatsoever.  If I am looking in the wrong place or for the wrong info,
please tell me.  If it should be there, please point to name or tree so
I can find it.  Help me fix it if I reply (in a new thread) that I
definitely do NOT have such data. 

On Sun, 2008-08-17 at 08:46 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 23:35 -0400, William Case wrote: 
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 18:28 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 18:11 -0400, William Case wrote: 
[snip]
> 
> This is a hard question to answer. network uses the ifcfg-x files
> in /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/.
> NM spreads the information over a collection of programs. wpa-client,
> dns, dhclient,nm-applet and their associated config files which are
> automatically created.
> 
> Truthfully, I am not sure where all the configurations are stored
> however in trying to answer one of your previous questions (I don't
> blame you). I wish I knew how I did it. One problem is I knew where
> these were in previous versions of Fedora but I can't find it in F9.
> 
> I am not sure that the other responses to your question on the list make
> it any clearer.
> 
> For definitive information sign up for [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I am going to sign up today.

What I have discovered -- I think:

There are two entities -- init.d scripts; one called 'network' and one
called 'NetworkManager'.  (entities might equal objects, but never
having done C++ or other OOp, I hesitate to use technical terms.)

The 'network' script references the
various /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts to get all its parts and pieces
running during initialization.

The 'NetworkManager' script references /etc/sysconfig/networking
which in turn has subdirectories ./devices and ./profiles.  ./devices
has a copy of 'ifcfg-eth0'; ./profiles/default has copies of 'hosts'
'ifcfg-eth0' and 'resolv.conf'.

Obviously, there is room to dig a lot deeper into the kernel and the
various scripts.

Some concerns I have are:

  * Not nearly enough clear and detailed manuals, help text and
tutorials; particularly for NetworkManager.
  * Too much overlap in the names used for various things; too much
reliance on the use of words that have a common generic meaning
as well as a computer specific meaning.
  * The copying of certain files to a new directory.  That strikes
me as a bit of an unreliable hack. Links at least would have
been explanatory if the scripts used were exactly the same and
would remain identical, a new name would be preferable if they
weren't. I currently have two or three copies of most networking
files or scripts.
  * It would be nice to be able to see the kernel contents of both
(and/or other) network managers in a cat /sys/... virtual file
system.
  * Each network management system should be completely shielded
from each other so that there are various options and choices of
which system to use and how.  It doesn't have to be one or the
other.
  * The use of the NetworkManager gui is unclear.  As simple as it
seems to an experienced user, for new users, every data entry
field should be clearly and exactly explained.  If you are a
beginner, networking contains many difficult concepts to grasp.

That's where I now stand on this subject.  I intend to find out a lot
more.  Thanks to everyone for their patience and help over the last week
or so. 

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ?? [SOLVED] kinda

2008-08-17 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 23:29 -0400, William Case wrote:
> Hi Patrick;
> 
> As I said I am now satisfied that a conflict between some entity called
> 'network' or NM is the cause of my problems.  So some of this discussion
> is a bit moot.
> 
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 20:15 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 18:41 -0400, William Case wrote:
> > > So why can't I get rid of 'network' entirely?  I understand that
> > > 'network' is not an application to be removed, but something is
> > > sticking it in the list of services.  With NetworkManager running,
> > > 'network' is not a service I need.  So why confuse the issue?
> > 
> > Bill, if your question is "why do I get a network status report when I
> > invoke 'service network status'?" the answer is that the status is
> > simply a report on the state of the various interfaces. It has nothing
> > whatever to do with you using system-config-network.
> > 
> It seems that the word 'network' is being used in two different
> senses.  

At least two, correct.

> If I look at system-config-services I see what looks like an entity
> (program, application or process) that can be enabled, disabled,
> started, stopped or restarted as can its alternate NetworkManager.  I
> supposed that that entity (network) was what I was looking at with the
> command service network status.

To me "entity" implies a single thing, which it clearly isn't. The
*network service* is a set of related "entities", and if you look at
system-config-network this is fairly explicit.

> But it seems with the service network status command the word network is
> simply a generalized reference to any network.  So be it, but it is
> confusing.

No, it's not even that. The status command shows you the state of your
network interfaces, that's all. It says nothing about the various
networks you are connected to (that would be another meaning of
"network").

> If this second meaning is true, it would make far more sense if
> 'network' was not listed as running in system-config-services.  Or had
> another name such as 'default_networking' (poor choice but ...) that
> would assign some definition and distinction to it. 

"networking" would be clearer perhaps.

poc

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-17 Thread Aaron Konstam
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 23:35 -0400, William Case wrote: 
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 18:28 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 18:11 -0400, William Case wrote: 
> 
> > 
> > > It lists 'Wired Network' and ' . System eth0' as the Access Points.
> > 
> > > 
> > Which tells me it detects no access points in the neighborhood. Do you
> > have any and do they have eessids?
> 
> I know of no wireless access points in the neighbourhood.
> 
> Aaron, in an earlier post you said "If you use NM then
> system-confiig-network is of no use. It controls the
> scripts for network."  How can I find out exactly which scripts NM
> controls for the network?  I am assuming the antecedent for the 'It'
> pronoun quoted above is the word 'NM'.

This is a hard question to answer. network uses the ifcfg-x files
in /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/.
NM spreads the information over a collection of programs. wpa-client,
dns, dhclient,nm-applet and their associated config files which are
automatically created.

Truthfully, I am not sure where all the configurations are stored
however in trying to answer one of your previous questions (I don't
blame you). I wish I knew how I did it. One problem is I knew where
these were in previous versions of Fedora but I can't find it in F9.

I am not sure that the other responses to your question on the list make
it any clearer.

For definitive information sign up for [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-17 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 19:52 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> You already found the connections area under gconf...NM holds
> information in there about connections its name in there.

Somewhat OT, but is anyone else slightly concerned about the fact that
NM seems to be dependant on gconf, i.e. Gnome? I fail to see how the
underlying plumbing of network setup relates to a specific desktop,
especially when the same plumbing is needed even if there is no desktop.
It seems like a very Windows-like view of the world to me.

Or am I misunderstanding something?

poc

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-17 Thread Aaron Konstam
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 20:46 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 17:28 -0400, William Case wrote:
> > Hi Matthew;
> > 
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 16:54 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:55 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
> > 
> > > He's referring to /etc/initi.d/network.  And no, it should be off if you
> > > are running NetowrkManager (and vice versa).  And the interfaces you
> > > want to be managed by NetworkManager should be so set in
> > > system-config-network.
> > 
> > They *are set* in system-config-network.
> 
> Sorry if I wasn't clear.  In system-config-network, there is a check-box
> for each interface indicating whether it is controlled by
> NetworkManager.  If you have NetworkManager service running and the
> network service off, you want that box checked.  If you have
> NetworkManager off and network running, you want that box unchecked.
> 
I use NM and that box ix not checked and does not have to be. There is
no real reason to use system-config-network when using NM.
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-17 Thread Mike
Matthew Saltzman  clemson.edu> writes:

> Sorry if I wasn't clear.  In system-config-network, there is a check-box
> for each interface indicating whether it is controlled by
> NetworkManager.  If you have NetworkManager service running and the
> network service off, you want that box checked.  If you have
> NetworkManager off and network running, you want that box unchecked.

Just to add another twist to the options
Of course you can define the interfaces in /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/
ifcfg-

 and then start/run these using 
service network start
chkconfig network on

But not have NetworkManager running or

you can 
service network stop
chkconfig network off

and then use NetworkManager during a logged in session to control connections.

I have an alternative way of running my wireless network on a laptop 
which I want to have the wireless running before a user logs in... that
way I can log in wirelessly and do updates etc without the extra load from
an X desktop.  How I do this is to run wpa_supplicant directly, after
setting up the config files /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
and /etc/sysconfig/wpa_supplicant and then have NetworkManager not running
and do
service wpa_supplicant start
chkconfig wpa_supplicant on

This is also useful if administering a laptop for a user who knows little
about networking - and wpa_supplicant can be set up to run with local
wpa encrypted LANs, or wireless networks elsewhere or open networks all
governed by sets of lines defining the networks in 
/etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_suppliant.conf

So there are three choices - though for running wpa encrypted wireless
I had problems trying with the "network" service and could only get
things to work with NetworkManager and wpa_supplicant



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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Jeff Spaleta
On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 9:00 PM, Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> network configuration manually.  If you want to manually configure
> things, then stop using automatic configuration systems, completely.


The NM in F9 supports manual configuration through the applet... right
click...edit connections.  You can setup both wired and wireless
'connections' manually. I've never had to use it. But i just did it
just now to manually set an ip for this machine different from the one
my dhcp server is configured to give me and it works. You can setup a
static ip.. you can setup a dns server you can even setup the
domainname to search.  Once manually configured that information is
stored in ,gconf down under .system/networking/connections for that
user associated with a connection name.  You select the connection as
named from the list in the applet...and NM will use those manual
settings.  If the manual setting UI is confusing, and you have some
thoughts on how it should be rearranged more intutively, file bugs
upstream.  If people want to screw around with the gconf keys instead
of using the UI...and need documentation on how to generate the gconf
files necessary to do this by hand...that is something to take up with
the upstream project most likely via its dedicated mailing list or irc
channel.  If people want to see nm-connection-editor grow cmdline
support that is also something to take up with upstream.

-jef

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Tom Horsley
From: Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 1. If you have a DHCP server on the network, then *IT* will configure
> your network, "automatically".  There's no client-side
> user-configuration involved with that, the server holds the
> configuration data.  Yes, it is possible for a DHCP client to have
> overriding local configuration, but network manager doesn't seem to
> support it, and that sort of thing's a kludge to try and get around
> problems with badly set up DHCP servers, which would be better sorted
> out by reconfiguring the server.

Unfortunately, not everything can be specified via DHCP. The one
in particular I need a dhclient exit hook for is to fix the
"search" directive in the resolv.conf file. I found it absolutely
incredible that NetworkManager decided it just had to invent
completely new (undocumented) ways to run hooks instead of using
the (moderately) documented hooks already described in the dhclient
documentation. So you can have perfectly operating dhclient hooks,
but they won't work in NetworkManager because it is far too
"improved" to be anything like backward compatible :-(.

Fortunately the "network" service will also configure your system
from a DHCP server, and it still works the same way it always did,
using the same dhclient hooks that always worked before. (I just
wonder how long fedora will continue to ship both services).

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Tim
Jeff Spaleta:
>> You continue to confuse yourself.  NM does most of what it does
>> automatically. 

William Case:
> In computers, nothing does most of what it does automagically.

I wish people would stop using that bogus term.  Apart from it being a
stupid word, there's nothing "magic" about it, at all.  What Jeff said
was "automatically".  The system (i.e. the whole thing, both client and
server, in combination) sorts itself out, according to how it's
designed.  That's "automatic".  There's no more *magic* involved here
than there is in automatic transmission cars.  It does what it does in
the way that it's been engineered to work.

Getting back to network manager, there's two basic ways you can expect
it to sort out a network, that work fairly well at the moment:

1. If you have a DHCP server on the network, then *IT* will configure
your network, "automatically".  There's no client-side
user-configuration involved with that, the server holds the
configuration data.  Yes, it is possible for a DHCP client to have
overriding local configuration, but network manager doesn't seem to
support it, and that sort of thing's a kludge to try and get around
problems with badly set up DHCP servers, which would be better sorted
out by reconfiguring the server.

2. If you have no DHCP server, then there's the zeroconf (aka bonjour or
link-local) scheme, where each client assigns itself a unique IP, at
random, after first checking that nobody else on the same LAN is already
using that address.  Again, there's no real client-side configuration
for this, it's "automatic".

Neither of those methods should really have users trying to diddle the
network configuration manually.  If you want to manually configure
things, then stop using automatic configuration systems, completely.

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread William Case
Hi Jeff;

On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 19:52 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 7:35 PM, William Case <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Aaron, in an earlier post you said "If you use NM then
> > system-confiig-network is of no use. It controls the
> > scripts for network."  How can I find out exactly which scripts NM
> > controls for the network?  I am assuming the antecedent for the 'It'
> > pronoun quoted above is the word 'NM'.
> 
> 
> You continue to confuse yourself.  NM does most of what it does
> automatically. 

In computers, nothing does most of what it does automagically.  It does
things because it has electricity, transistors, cpus, memory, compiled
code, code in kernel space and code in user space.  If a process calls
on other code or scripts, it still exists as a separate entity that
starts several processes.  It may do it in one way when it is just
considered the 'network' or an other way when it it is called
NewtworkManager. 

> In Fedora 9 it does expose some ability to support
> static ip addresses but i havent used that particular feature so I can
> not point to exactly where it holds that information.
> 
> For typical uses, where NM is talking to a dhcp server... NM doesn't
> hold need to hold much of anything with regard to configuration...so
> you are looking for configuration files which don't typically
> exist...a futile effort.
> 
> You already found the connections area under gconf...NM holds
> information in there about connections its name in there.  

I did NOT find any references to NM or connections in .gconfig or
gconfig-editor.  If I had found them, that would probably have satisfied
me.  I responded to your post a couple of days ago saying exactly that.

> -jef"These conversations are proof that s-c-network and the legacy
> network service should be removed by default in F10 for at least the
> Desktop spin"spaleta
> 

Paying attention to manuals and help documentation which explains what
is happening would go a lot further than the proposed M$ solution of
hiding things from the user.  For example, some reference to netfs and
how that virtual net file system might be used and viewed would go along
way.

There is no need to remove services that still have some use to some
people.  Implying that people are too stupid to understand is an
attitude that the Open Source movement has eshewed. Open Source by its
very definition assumes people can come to understand.

My experience is that people who can't explain things; can't do so
because they don't themselves really understand.

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Jeff Spaleta
On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 7:35 PM, William Case <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Aaron, in an earlier post you said "If you use NM then
> system-confiig-network is of no use. It controls the
> scripts for network."  How can I find out exactly which scripts NM
> controls for the network?  I am assuming the antecedent for the 'It'
> pronoun quoted above is the word 'NM'.


You continue to confuse yourself.  NM does most of what it does
automatically. In Fedora 9 it does expose some ability to support
static ip addresses but i havent used that particular feature so I can
not point to exactly where it holds that information.

For typical uses, where NM is talking to a dhcp server... NM doesn't
hold need to hold much of anything with regard to configuration...so
you are looking for configuration files which don't typically
exist...a futile effort.

You already found the connections area under gconf...NM holds
information in there about connections its name in there.  .I'm not
really sure what else you are expecting to find.   If you want to know
how NM works in a deep way you are going to have to go to the upstream
project communication channels and try to suck information out of the
developers.  For the end-users cases that NM is meant to be used for,
it is meant to be interacted with via the applet UI, so for most of us
who use it we don't have a need to go poking around at its gconf keys
or any other configs. When it works.. it works.  And for you
specifically, your problems have been that you have gone messing
around with configs unnecessarily. NM was working for you, and the
last time we spoke you confirmed for me that it was working for you
again.  If you keep running system-config-network you are going to
just break things..again.

-jef"These conversations are proof that s-c-network and the legacy
network service should be removed by default in F10 for at least the
Desktop spin"spaleta

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread William Case
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 18:28 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 18:11 -0400, William Case wrote: 

> 
> > It lists 'Wired Network' and ' . System eth0' as the Access Points.
> 
> > 
> Which tells me it detects no access points in the neighborhood. Do you
> have any and do they have eessids?

I know of no wireless access points in the neighbourhood.

Aaron, in an earlier post you said "If you use NM then
system-confiig-network is of no use. It controls the
scripts for network."  How can I find out exactly which scripts NM
controls for the network?  I am assuming the antecedent for the 'It'
pronoun quoted above is the word 'NM'.



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> 
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ?? [SOLVED] kinda

2008-08-16 Thread William Case
Hi Patrick;

As I said I am now satisfied that a conflict between some entity called
'network' or NM is the cause of my problems.  So some of this discussion
is a bit moot.

On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 20:15 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 18:41 -0400, William Case wrote:
> > So why can't I get rid of 'network' entirely?  I understand that
> > 'network' is not an application to be removed, but something is
> > sticking it in the list of services.  With NetworkManager running,
> > 'network' is not a service I need.  So why confuse the issue?
> 
> Bill, if your question is "why do I get a network status report when I
> invoke 'service network status'?" the answer is that the status is
> simply a report on the state of the various interfaces. It has nothing
> whatever to do with you using system-config-network.
> 
It seems that the word 'network' is being used in two different
senses.  

If I look at system-config-services I see what looks like an entity
(program, application or process) that can be enabled, disabled,
started, stopped or restarted as can its alternate NetworkManager.  I
supposed that that entity (network) was what I was looking at with the
command service network status.

But it seems with the service network status command the word network is
simply a generalized reference to any network.  So be it, but it is
confusing.

If this second meaning is true, it would make far more sense if
'network' was not listed as running in system-config-services.  Or had
another name such as 'default_networking' (poor choice but ...) that
would assign some definition and distinction to it. 

> If that's not your question, I'm at a loss to understand what it is.
> 

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread William Case
Matthew we seem to be talking at cross purposes.

On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 20:46 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 17:28 -0400, William Case wrote:
> > Hi Matthew;
> > 
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 16:54 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:55 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
> > 
> > > He's referring to /etc/initi.d/network.  And no, it should be off if you
> > > are running NetowrkManager (and vice versa).  And the interfaces you
> > > want to be managed by NetworkManager should be so set in
> > > system-config-network.
> > 
> > They *are set* in system-config-network.
> 
> Sorry if I wasn't clear.  In system-config-network, there is a check-box
> for each interface indicating whether it is controlled by
> NetworkManager.  If you have NetworkManager service running and the
> network service off, you want that box checked.  If you have
> NetworkManager off and network running, you want that box unchecked.
> 
I just re-opened 'root]$ system-config-network'.  The Network
Configuration gui popped up.  On the devices tab which is the device
interface, Profile is checkmarked; Status is active; Device is eth0
Nickname is eth0; Type is Ethernet. Hardware tab info is correct; DNS
tab info is correct; Hosts tab only shows loopback data after I check
mark 'show loopback'. Active profile is listed as Common.

My NetworkManager is enabled, running and configured to runlevel
2,3,4,5.  

The network service is disabled but running and configured to no
runlevels at all.

> 
> > 
> -- 
> Matthew Saltzman
> 
> Clemson University Math Sciences
> mjs AT clemson DOT edu
> http://www.math.clemson.edu/~mjs
> 
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Matthew Saltzman

On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 17:28 -0400, William Case wrote:
> Hi Matthew;
> 
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 16:54 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:55 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
> 
> > He's referring to /etc/initi.d/network.  And no, it should be off if you
> > are running NetowrkManager (and vice versa).  And the interfaces you
> > want to be managed by NetworkManager should be so set in
> > system-config-network.
> 
> They *are set* in system-config-network.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.  In system-config-network, there is a check-box
for each interface indicating whether it is controlled by
NetworkManager.  If you have NetworkManager service running and the
network service off, you want that box checked.  If you have
NetworkManager off and network running, you want that box unchecked.


> 
-- 
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mjs AT clemson DOT edu
http://www.math.clemson.edu/~mjs

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ?? [SOLVED] kinda

2008-08-16 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 18:41 -0400, William Case wrote:
> So why can't I get rid of 'network' entirely?  I understand that
> 'network' is not an application to be removed, but something is
> sticking it in the list of services.  With NetworkManager running,
> 'network' is not a service I need.  So why confuse the issue?

Bill, if your question is "why do I get a network status report when I
invoke 'service network status'?" the answer is that the status is
simply a report on the state of the various interfaces. It has nothing
whatever to do with you using system-config-network.

If that's not your question, I'm at a loss to understand what it is.

Cheers

poc

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread g
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Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

> Since I'm not aware of having responded to you before now on this topic,
> I don't understand the sarcasm.

my apologies. was not meant as sarcasm.

only that if william had run 'locate', he would have found scripts and rest
related to 'network' and by looking over scripts, and rest, he would have a
better idea of how things relate.


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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Aaron Konstam
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 18:11 -0400, William Case wrote: 
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 17:02 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
> > > Hi;
> > > 
> > > NetworkManager has apparently screwed up a lot of small Gnome processes.
> > > 
> > >   * Trouble with Evo getting itself stuck in downloading mail
> > > (looping ??).
> > >   * Clock applet not getting task and calendar info from Evolution
> > > properly.
> > >   * I have been told that NM configuration info and keys should be
> > > in my gconf-editor.  They are not.
> > >   * A couple of other little things (I forget now) not operating
> > > properly after turning NetworkManager off and on.
> > I have not had the problems above. Although right now I can't find my
> > keys . I have seen them in earlier versions of NM, and they must be here
> > since the connections are made.
> > > 
> 
> > No you should run one of them but not both of them. Do you see a
> > nm-applet in the upper right panel. What do you see if you left click on
> > it. You should see the available APs.

> It lists 'Wired Network' and ' . System eth0' as the Access Points.

> 
Which tells me it detects no access points in the neighborhood. Do you
have any and do they have eessids?
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ?? [SOLVED] kinda

2008-08-16 Thread Mikkel L. Ellertson
William Case wrote:
> 
> So why can't I get rid of 'network' entirely?  I understand that
> 'network' is not an application to be removed, but something is sticking
> it in the list of services.  With NetworkManager running, 'network' is
> not a service I need.  So why confuse the issue?
> 
It is handy for people that need the network to be up when no-one is
 logged in. On my desktop, I use the network service instead of hte
NetworkManager service because there are a couple of cron jobs that
need the network connection. I may not be logged in all the time,
but the computer normally runs 24/7.

Mikkel
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Aaron Konstam
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 17:28 -0400, William Case wrote:
> Hi Matthew;
> 
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 16:54 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:55 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
> 
> > He's referring to /etc/initi.d/network.  And no, it should be off if you
> > are running NetowrkManager (and vice versa).  And the interfaces you
> > want to be managed by NetworkManager should be so set in
> > system-config-network.
> 
> They *are set* in system-config-network.
They don't have to be if network is not being used.
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ?? [SOLVED] kinda

2008-08-16 Thread Aaron Konstam
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 18:41 -0400, William Case wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 17:57 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 17:10 -0400, William Case wrote:
> > > Thank you Matthew. That was why I was double checking.
> [snip]
> > To ensure that the network service does not run at boot, run 'chkconfig
> > network off' as root.  If the network service is stopped, it may still
> > report active interfaces, even if they are being managed by
> > NetworkManager.
> 
> Ran 'chkconfig' etc.. It reports everything at every run level is off.
> 
> So I can safely say it is not having an effect on anything and that any
> issues lie elsewhere.  The following question is just a 'by-the-way'
> curiosity.
> 
> So why can't I get rid of 'network' entirely?  I understand that
> 'network' is not an application to be removed, but something is sticking
> it in the list of services.  With NetworkManager running, 'network' is
> not a service I need.  So why confuse the issue?
> 
It can be removed but turning it off with chkconfig will keep it from
running at boot, which should be sufficient to keep it from bothering
you.
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 22:48 +, g wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> 
> > My qualification "in the sense I think you mean" was intended to convey
> > the idea that "network" is not a single process or daemon. Of course
> > there is a set of things collectively called "network service".
> 
> which is why i suggested that he run 'locate network|grep -v icons'.

Where did you say that? I see no other message from you on this thread,
including in the archives. Perhaps you mailed him privately.

> this would have shown him just how much is related to 'network'.
> 
> but what do i know. i am just a 'newbie' who has been using linux from
> time of slackware release on cd, before there was a 'redhat'.

Since I'm not aware of having responded to you before now on this topic,
I don't understand the sarcasm.

(Linux user since kernel 1.95, around early 1996 I think, and just as
fallible as ever.)

poc

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Aaron Konstam
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 17:10 -0400, William Case wrote:
> Thank you Matthew. That was why I was double checking.
> 
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 16:54 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:55 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
> [snip]
> > 
> > He's referring to /etc/initi.d/network.  And no, it should be off if you
> > are running NetowrkManager (and vice versa).  And the interfaces you
> > want to be managed by NetworkManager should be so set in
> > system-config-network.
> 
> network won't turn off.
> 
> The command line shows:
> 
> ]# service network status
> Configured devices:
> lo eth0
> Currently active devices:
> lo eth0
> 
> ]# service network stop
> Shutting down interface eth0:  [  OK  ]
> Shutting down loopback interface:  [  OK  ]
> 
> and then;
> NetworkManager's gui shows warning 'disconnected'; does its grind;
> produces a dialogue (tool tip thingy) that says I am reconnected.
> 
> If I check, I get:
> 
> ]# service network status
> Configured devices:
> lo eth0
> Currently active devices:
> lo eth0
> 
> And it is back running.  Even after hot or cold re-boot.
To stop network from running aftere reboot you must run:
chkconfig network off
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread William Case
Sorry Patrick;

As they say in the political world, 'I mis-spoke'.

On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 18:01 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

> You mean you moved the /sbin/ifconfig command to somewhere else? I can't
> see any sane reason for doing that. It's definitely a sledgehammer way
> of preventing it from being executed, but I'd say it's likely to cause
> trouble (e.g. in scripts which are trying to run it).
> 
I moved aside dhclient-eth0.conf & dhcp6c.conf

Those were the files that I was told were causing problems.

> Note also that any earlier execution of ifconfig will have remained in
> force unless you also rebooted or did something specific to change it.

> 
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread g
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

> My qualification "in the sense I think you mean" was intended to convey
> the idea that "network" is not a single process or daemon. Of course
> there is a set of things collectively called "network service".

which is why i suggested that he run 'locate network|grep -v icons'.

this would have shown him just how much is related to 'network'.

but what do i know. i am just a 'newbie' who has been using linux from
time of slackware release on cd, before there was a 'redhat'.

> 
> poc
> 

- --
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g
.

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learn linux:
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ?? [SOLVED] kinda

2008-08-16 Thread William Case
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 17:57 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 17:10 -0400, William Case wrote:
> > Thank you Matthew. That was why I was double checking.
[snip]
> To ensure that the network service does not run at boot, run 'chkconfig
> network off' as root.  If the network service is stopped, it may still
> report active interfaces, even if they are being managed by
> NetworkManager.

Ran 'chkconfig' etc.. It reports everything at every run level is off.

So I can safely say it is not having an effect on anything and that any
issues lie elsewhere.  The following question is just a 'by-the-way'
curiosity.

So why can't I get rid of 'network' entirely?  I understand that
'network' is not an application to be removed, but something is sticking
it in the list of services.  With NetworkManager running, 'network' is
not a service I need.  So why confuse the issue?

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 17:50 -0400, William Case wrote:
> On advice in an earlier thread, it was suggested that ifconfig was
> interfering and that I had no use for it.  That I should move it aside
> so that it would not be found. I moved it to a dir I keep in root for
> such things -- /root/MoveAsides.

You mean you moved the /sbin/ifconfig command to somewhere else? I can't
see any sane reason for doing that. It's definitely a sledgehammer way
of preventing it from being executed, but I'd say it's likely to cause
trouble (e.g. in scripts which are trying to run it).

(It is occasionally valid to move a command to one side and put a
surrogate in its place, such as a shell script that simply logs its
arguments and then executes the original, all this for debugging
purposes, but I don't get the impression that that's what you're doing).

Note also that any earlier execution of ifconfig will have remained in
force unless you also rebooted or did something specific to change it.

poc

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread William Case
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 17:02 -0500, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
> > Hi;
> > 
> > NetworkManager has apparently screwed up a lot of small Gnome processes.
> > 
> >   * Trouble with Evo getting itself stuck in downloading mail
> > (looping ??).
> >   * Clock applet not getting task and calendar info from Evolution
> > properly.
> >   * I have been told that NM configuration info and keys should be
> > in my gconf-editor.  They are not.
> >   * A couple of other little things (I forget now) not operating
> > properly after turning NetworkManager off and on.
> I have not had the problems above. Although right now I can't find my
> keys . I have seen them in earlier versions of NM, and they must be here
> since the connections are made.
> > 

> No you should run one of them but not both of them. Do you see a
> nm-applet in the upper right panel. What do you see if you left click on
> it. You should see the available APs.

It lists 'Wired Network' and ' . System eth0' as the Access Points.


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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Aaron Konstam
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:55 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
> > I will see if I can get help with NetworkManager on the
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] , but meanwhile, so as to avoid asking
> > really stupid questions in more than one place.  Is the 'network'
> > service supposed to be running while the NetworkManager service is on?
> 
> There is no such thing as *the* 'network' service (in the sense I think
> you mean). People on this list are using Network vs. NM as a shorthand
> for two ways of configuring the various network components, some of
> which are in the kernel and some in user space. Specifically when they
> say Network in this context they mean the set of scripts invoked via the
> system-config-network command.
If you use NM then system-confiig-network is of no use. It controls the
scripts for network.
> 
> > Is it compiled into the kernel?  I thought it was a module?  Are those
> > questions even relevant?
> 
> The TCP/IP network protocol stack is wired into the kernel. Various
> device drivers may be wired in or loadable as modules. Other bits such
> as DHCP service run in user space.
> 
> > ps aux shows NetworkManager but no 'network' or friends.
> 
> Because it's not a single process.
> 
> poc
> 
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Aaron Konstam
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
> Hi;
> 
> NetworkManager has apparently screwed up a lot of small Gnome processes.
> 
>   * Trouble with Evo getting itself stuck in downloading mail
> (looping ??).
>   * Clock applet not getting task and calendar info from Evolution
> properly.
>   * I have been told that NM configuration info and keys should be
> in my gconf-editor.  They are not.
>   * A couple of other little things (I forget now) not operating
> properly after turning NetworkManager off and on.
I have not had the problems above. Although right now I can't find my
keys . I have seen them in earlier versions of NM, and they must be here
since the connections are made.
> 
> I will see if I can get help with NetworkManager on the
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] , but meanwhile, so as to avoid asking
> really stupid questions in more than one place.  Is the 'network'
> service supposed to be running while the NetworkManager service is on?
No you should run one of them but not both of them. Do you see a
nm-applet in the upper right panel. What do you see if you left click on
it. You should see the available APs.
> 
> Is it compiled into the kernel?  I thought it was a module?  Are those
> questions even relevant?
> 
> ps aux shows NetworkManager but no 'network' or friends.
> 
> The command line shows:
> 
> ]# service network status
> Configured devices:
> lo eth0
> Currently active devices:
> lo eth0
> 
> ]# service network stop
> Shutting down interface eth0:  [  OK  ]
> Shutting down loopback interface:  [  OK  ]
> 
> and then;
> 
> ]# service network status
> Configured devices:
> lo eth0
> Currently active devices:
> lo eth0
> 
> There is no Fedora manual or 'Help' for NetworkManager
> 
> 'man NetworkManager' produces only:
> "DESCRIPTION
>The NetworkManager daemon attempts to keep an active
> network connection available at all times.  The point of
> NetworkManager is  to  make  networking  configuration and setup
> as painless and automatic as possible. If using DHCP,
> NetworkManager is intended to  replace  default  routes,obtain
> IP addresses from a DHCP server, and change nameservers whenever
> it sees fit, with the aim of making networking Just Work."
> 
> nm-tool shows me no more info than is available in the NM gui.
> 
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Tools/NetworkManager simply tells me how
> to configure for pam.  My pam.d/gdm is 
> auth   optionalpam_gnome_keyring.so
> session    optionalpam_gnome_keyring.so auto_start
>  
> googled sites gives info for gentoo and mandrivia only.
> 
> I am stumped.  I will re-ask on the NetworkManager list, but first I
> would like to straighten out in my mind the network vs NetworkManger
> services thing.
> 
> -- 
> Regards Bill;
> Fedora 9, Gnome 2.22.3
> Evo.2.22.3.1, Emacs 22.2.1
> 
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread William Case
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 16:52 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> William Case wrote:
> > 

> The way "service network status" works is that it uses the ip
> command to get the list of interfaces that are up. So the list will
> be the same if they are controlled by the network or the
> NetworkManager service. Or if you brought them up manually using the
> ifconfig command.)
> 

Ok Mikkel. that makes sense.

Then why is my system-config-services showing network at all; much less
as disabled, but running and it won't stop.  Or, do I have some
misinformation here -- that 'network' shouldn't be showing in
system-config-services if NetworkManager is enabled and running?  I was
told (or read) that a couple of weeks ago!!

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Matthew Saltzman

On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 17:10 -0400, William Case wrote:
> Thank you Matthew. That was why I was double checking.
> 
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 16:54 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:55 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
> [snip]
> > 
> > He's referring to /etc/initi.d/network.  And no, it should be off if you
> > are running NetowrkManager (and vice versa).  And the interfaces you
> > want to be managed by NetworkManager should be so set in
> > system-config-network.
> 
> network won't turn off.
> 
> The command line shows:
> 
> ]# service network status
> Configured devices:
> lo eth0
> Currently active devices:
> lo eth0
> 
> ]# service network stop
> Shutting down interface eth0:  [  OK  ]
> Shutting down loopback interface:  [  OK  ]
> 
> and then;
> NetworkManager's gui shows warning 'disconnected'; does its grind;
> produces a dialogue (tool tip thingy) that says I am reconnected.
> 
> If I check, I get:
> 
> ]# service network status
> Configured devices:
> lo eth0
> Currently active devices:
> lo eth0
> 
> And it is back running.  Even after hot or cold re-boot.

To ensure that the network service does not run at boot, run 'chkconfig
network off' as root.  If the network service is stopped, it may still
report active interfaces, even if they are being managed by
NetworkManager.
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Mikkel L. Ellertson
William Case wrote:
> 
> If I check, I get:
> 
> ]# service network status
> Configured devices:
> lo eth0
> Currently active devices:
> lo eth0
> 
> And it is back running.  Even after hot or cold re-boot.

The way "service network status" works is that it uses the ip
command to get the list of interfaces that are up. So the list will
be the same if they are controlled by the network or the
NetworkManager service. Or if you brought them up manually using the
ifconfig command.)

Mikkel
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread William Case
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 17:03 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 17:25 -0400, William Case wrote:
> > Hi Patrick;
> > 
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 16:26 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 15:02 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> > > > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > [snip]
[snip]
> 
> Bill, we may be going off at a tangent here since I really haven't
> attempted to answer your original question, but the interfaces are
> always going to be there (assuming the drivers are loaded). What changes
> is whether they are marked UP or not. The state of each interface is
> internal to the kernel, all the various commands do is manipulate it or
> report it.
> 
> Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "removed the ifconfig".

On advice in an earlier thread, it was suggested that ifconfig was
interfering and that I had no use for it.  That I should move it aside
so that it would not be found. I moved it to a dir I keep in root for
such things -- /root/MoveAsides.

That action did get NM reworking, but the service called 'network'
remains running apparently.

My problems are all those annoying little gnome issues I listed in my
original post.  All of which seemed to have started when I turned NM off
then on again.

My main objective is to get my networking working properly with no extra
programs or processes hanging around.  I want -- need -- to start poking
around my network setup to learn networking.  I want to make sure that
there is a direct correlation between my poking and any network
breakdowns so I can trace back what I shouldn't have done. 
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Paulo Cavalcanti
On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 6:28 PM, William Case <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Matthew;
>
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 16:54 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:55 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
>
> > He's referring to /etc/initi.d/network.  And no, it should be off if you
> > are running NetowrkManager (and vice versa).  And the interfaces you
> > want to be managed by NetworkManager should be so set in
> > system-config-network.
>
> They *are set* in system-config-network.
>
>

And what about NetworkManager-openvpn ?
I have it installed but when I try to configure a vpn connection
the setup only shows a vpnc option. Why openvpn does not show up?


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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 17:25 -0400, William Case wrote:
> Hi Patrick;
> 
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 16:26 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 15:02 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> > > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> [snip]
> > 
> > My qualification "in the sense I think you mean" was intended to convey
> > the idea that "network" is not a single process or daemon. Of course
> > there is a set of things collectively called "network service".
> 
> I believe that network services were managed by the
> system-control-network gui which used the ifconfig page as its data
> source.  I have removed the ifconfig. Yet 'something' is running and
> making reference to configured devices 'lo eth0' etc.

Bill, we may be going off at a tangent here since I really haven't
attempted to answer your original question, but the interfaces are
always going to be there (assuming the drivers are loaded). What changes
is whether they are marked UP or not. The state of each interface is
internal to the kernel, all the various commands do is manipulate it or
report it.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "removed the ifconfig".

poc

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread William Case
Hi Matthew;

On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 16:54 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:55 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:

> He's referring to /etc/initi.d/network.  And no, it should be off if you
> are running NetowrkManager (and vice versa).  And the interfaces you
> want to be managed by NetworkManager should be so set in
> system-config-network.

They *are set* in system-config-network.

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread William Case
Hi Patrick;

On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 16:26 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 15:02 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
[snip]
> 
> My qualification "in the sense I think you mean" was intended to convey
> the idea that "network" is not a single process or daemon. Of course
> there is a set of things collectively called "network service".

I believe that network services were managed by the
system-control-network gui which used the ifconfig page as its data
source.  I have removed the ifconfig. Yet 'something' is running and
making reference to configured devices 'lo eth0' etc.

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Regards Bill;
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread William Case
Thank you Matthew. That was why I was double checking.

On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 16:54 -0400, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:55 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
[snip]
> 
> He's referring to /etc/initi.d/network.  And no, it should be off if you
> are running NetowrkManager (and vice versa).  And the interfaces you
> want to be managed by NetworkManager should be so set in
> system-config-network.

network won't turn off.

The command line shows:

]# service network status
Configured devices:
lo eth0
Currently active devices:
lo eth0

]# service network stop
Shutting down interface eth0:  [  OK  ]
Shutting down loopback interface:  [  OK  ]

and then;
NetworkManager's gui shows warning 'disconnected'; does its grind;
produces a dialogue (tool tip thingy) that says I am reconnected.

If I check, I get:

]# service network status
Configured devices:
lo eth0
Currently active devices:
lo eth0

And it is back running.  Even after hot or cold re-boot.
-- 
Regards Bill;
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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 15:02 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
> >> I will see if I can get help with NetworkManager on the
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] , but meanwhile, so as to avoid asking
> >> really stupid questions in more than one place.  Is the 'network'
> >> service supposed to be running while the NetworkManager service is on?
> > 
> > There is no such thing as *the* 'network' service (in the sense I think
> > you mean). People on this list are using Network vs. NM as a shorthand
> > for two ways of configuring the various network components, some of
> > which are in the kernel and some in user space. Specifically when they
> > say Network in this context they mean the set of scripts invoked via the
> > system-config-network command.
> > 
> Yes there is. I have to check F9, but F8 has both the NetworkManager
> and network services. NetworkManager is started with run level 5,
> and network is started with run level 3 by default. (The spelling is
> important if you want to start/stop them manually.)
> 
> In any case, he would have gotten an error when he used the service
> command if there was not a network service.

My qualification "in the sense I think you mean" was intended to convey
the idea that "network" is not a single process or daemon. Of course
there is a set of things collectively called "network service".

poc

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Matthew Saltzman

On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:55 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
> > I will see if I can get help with NetworkManager on the
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] , but meanwhile, so as to avoid asking
> > really stupid questions in more than one place.  Is the 'network'
> > service supposed to be running while the NetworkManager service is on?
> 
> There is no such thing as *the* 'network' service (in the sense I think
> you mean). People on this list are using Network vs. NM as a shorthand
> for two ways of configuring the various network components, some of
> which are in the kernel and some in user space. Specifically when they
> say Network in this context they mean the set of scripts invoked via the
> system-config-network command.

He's referring to /etc/initi.d/network.  And no, it should be off if you
are running NetowrkManager (and vice versa).  And the interfaces you
want to be managed by NetworkManager should be so set in
system-config-network.

> 
> > Is it compiled into the kernel?  I thought it was a module?  Are those
> > questions even relevant?
> 
> The TCP/IP network protocol stack is wired into the kernel. Various
> device drivers may be wired in or loadable as modules. Other bits such
> as DHCP service run in user space.
> 
> > ps aux shows NetworkManager but no 'network' or friends.
> 
> Because it's not a single process.
> 
> poc
> 
> 
-- 
Matthew Saltzman

Clemson University Math Sciences
mjs AT clemson DOT edu
http://www.math.clemson.edu/~mjs

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread William Case
Now I am getting more confused.

On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 15:02 -0500, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
> >> I will see if I can get help with NetworkManager on the
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] , but meanwhile, so as to avoid asking
> >> really stupid questions in more than one place.  Is the 'network'
> >> service supposed to be running while the NetworkManager service is on?
> > 
> > There is no such thing as *the* 'network' service (in the sense I think
> > you mean). People on this list are using Network vs. NM as a shorthand
> > for two ways of configuring the various network components, some of
> > which are in the kernel and some in user space. Specifically when they
> > say Network in this context they mean the set of scripts invoked via the
> > system-config-network command.
> > 
> Yes there is. I have to check F9, but F8 has both the NetworkManager
> and network services. NetworkManager is started with run level 5,
> and network is started with run level 3 by default. (The spelling is
> important if you want to start/stop them manually.)
> 
> In any case, he would have gotten an error when he used the service
> command if there was not a network service.
> 
> Mikkel

When I run the system-config-services gui I get the following info:
NetworkManager => enabled, running, run level 2,3,4,5
network=> disabled, running, run level all off.

plus the same command line info as previously.

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Evo.2.22.3.1, Emacs 22.2.1

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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Mikkel L. Ellertson
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
>> I will see if I can get help with NetworkManager on the
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] , but meanwhile, so as to avoid asking
>> really stupid questions in more than one place.  Is the 'network'
>> service supposed to be running while the NetworkManager service is on?
> 
> There is no such thing as *the* 'network' service (in the sense I think
> you mean). People on this list are using Network vs. NM as a shorthand
> for two ways of configuring the various network components, some of
> which are in the kernel and some in user space. Specifically when they
> say Network in this context they mean the set of scripts invoked via the
> system-config-network command.
> 
Yes there is. I have to check F9, but F8 has both the NetworkManager
and network services. NetworkManager is started with run level 5,
and network is started with run level 3 by default. (The spelling is
important if you want to start/stop them manually.)

In any case, he would have gotten an error when he used the service
command if there was not a network service.

Mikkel
-- 

  Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!



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Re: network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan
On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 14:40 -0400, William Case wrote:
> I will see if I can get help with NetworkManager on the
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] , but meanwhile, so as to avoid asking
> really stupid questions in more than one place.  Is the 'network'
> service supposed to be running while the NetworkManager service is on?

There is no such thing as *the* 'network' service (in the sense I think
you mean). People on this list are using Network vs. NM as a shorthand
for two ways of configuring the various network components, some of
which are in the kernel and some in user space. Specifically when they
say Network in this context they mean the set of scripts invoked via the
system-config-network command.

> Is it compiled into the kernel?  I thought it was a module?  Are those
> questions even relevant?

The TCP/IP network protocol stack is wired into the kernel. Various
device drivers may be wired in or loadable as modules. Other bits such
as DHCP service run in user space.

> ps aux shows NetworkManager but no 'network' or friends.

Because it's not a single process.

poc

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network vs NetworkManger services ??

2008-08-16 Thread William Case
Hi;

NetworkManager has apparently screwed up a lot of small Gnome processes.

  * Trouble with Evo getting itself stuck in downloading mail
(looping ??).
  * Clock applet not getting task and calendar info from Evolution
properly.
  * I have been told that NM configuration info and keys should be
in my gconf-editor.  They are not.
  * A couple of other little things (I forget now) not operating
properly after turning NetworkManager off and on.

I will see if I can get help with NetworkManager on the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] , but meanwhile, so as to avoid asking
really stupid questions in more than one place.  Is the 'network'
service supposed to be running while the NetworkManager service is on?

Is it compiled into the kernel?  I thought it was a module?  Are those
questions even relevant?

ps aux shows NetworkManager but no 'network' or friends.

The command line shows:

]# service network status
Configured devices:
lo eth0
Currently active devices:
lo eth0

]# service network stop
Shutting down interface eth0:  [  OK  ]
Shutting down loopback interface:  [  OK  ]

and then;

]# service network status
Configured devices:
lo eth0
Currently active devices:
lo eth0

There is no Fedora manual or 'Help' for NetworkManager

'man NetworkManager' produces only:
"DESCRIPTION
   The NetworkManager daemon attempts to keep an active
network connection available at all times.  The point of
NetworkManager is  to  make  networking  configuration and setup
as painless and automatic as possible. If using DHCP,
NetworkManager is intended to  replace  default  routes,obtain
IP addresses from a DHCP server, and change nameservers whenever
it sees fit, with the aim of making networking Just Work."

nm-tool shows me no more info than is available in the NM gui.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Tools/NetworkManager simply tells me how
to configure for pam.  My pam.d/gdm is 
auth   optionalpam_gnome_keyring.so
sessionoptionalpam_gnome_keyring.so auto_start
 
googled sites gives info for gentoo and mandrivia only.

I am stumped.  I will re-ask on the NetworkManager list, but first I
would like to straighten out in my mind the network vs NetworkManger
services thing.

-- 
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Evo.2.22.3.1, Emacs 22.2.1

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