subject:"Fedora\: Freedom is a Feature."

El lun, 08-10-2007 a las 03:00 +0530, Rahul Sundaram escribió:

> 
> What are you doing to help? Just waving a big flag doesn't change anything.
> 
Personally, I firmly think that there are no much things around _so_
strong in order to promote a "weird" O.S. for most common people, AKA
Linux, than "wearing it" permanently from a very common person, without
fascination nor "big flags", without pompousness nor flattery, without
"Linux Install Parties", without ambassadors (sounds to me a bit like
"commercial" sellers..), without being an 2nd grade I.T. student,
without evangelisms nor talibanisms, etc, etc..
In the other hand, I won't -as you will probably guess- list here any
medal, not even suggest about its mere existence. Nevertheless, I
remember you that contributing to the Open Source movement can be done
in multiple ways, and you'll agree that the Fedora Project is no more
than a very restricted area of it. 
For me, collaboration for Linux in general is very different than
involving severely with a distribution in particular, since for the last
one you must believe completely in that, being 100% interested in that
(for any reason), to have enough time, etc. 
Who is convinced about this project in particular, don't worry that
he/she will do without asking.
Said that.., what happens if somebody is doing nothing for helping? Does
it denies "per se" the right to the constructive criticism? No. Most of
the people that use computers daily in a common/regular way won't do
anything for any "computing" community into their whole life. They
_just_ use computers (from time to time, sometimes some minutes a day,
etc...). Actually, I'm not into this group (as regards ways of
behaviour), but I would perfectly..(as regards computing for me is, at
the most, secondary). So what..? Are you going to tell/"ask" that phrase
to everyone that is coming newbie to Linux, or to Fedora, during the
next years?

> > It's possible. One read so much info throughout the weeks..
> > It was just a comment I read.. You seem uncomfortable with it. 
> > If sometime I find where it was, I promise that you will be the first I
> > will tell it.:-)
> 
> I am uncomfortable with people spreading misinformation, yes.
> 

Yeah! ...and specially with people that you know that, by telling his
opinion freely, has nothing to loose here, in this business. I'm not
from Red Hat (not an aspiring either..), I do not belong to the I.T.
engineering world, I'm not even a fanatic of computing and computers..,
I'm just a common man that when sitting down for a while in order to
make a task or whatever, is always facing a Linux as O.S., no more (no
less...). 

> > A strange colour for a skin, not? Maybe Fedora (=Teodora, Dorotea) is
> > ill. 
> 
> It's not a skin color. It is the color for a distribution.  Very 
> different things.
> 

Worrying.. There is a thing called humour, this sometimes includes games
such as double sense words, etc. 
Fedora _was_ from ages, still is, and _will be_ forever, and over the
rest of things (take note)... a name of woman. That's the basis. That
was precisely the trick.


> > Maybe like the freedom to use typical RH hats but in blue? What a
> > paradoxical!
> 
> It is part of a brand. Fedora's brand is explicitly different from 
> others. The name, logo and colors are part of it.
> 
:-) 
You forget the money that comes from Red Hat, the main sponsor.

> > In relation with "consolidate your replies", please let me know if there
> > is a only email that lacks of sense or not written seriously.
> 
> When you are replying to many mails, consolidate the replies. Dozens of 
> mails one after another as a answer for a week's worth of mails is not 
> very courteous to people reading those mails. Just common netiquette.
> 
There was just eight emails, not "dozens". Since you didn't take the
trouble to count them..., just eight in total and that taking part in
different threads. 
The question is why you have talked about "dozens", maybe for some
reason they seemed dozens to you... ;-) Let's think that they were just
bothering you, from the first to the last. Since they were (or tried to
be) serious, don't talk _you_ to me about netiquette..., I can smell the
bad behaviour, the interested behaviour, and bad intention from someone
from miles away.
I've seen between folks many complains about netiquette with the years,
but this is the first time that I see that someone is complaining about
8 fu* emails into a very very low-traffic list, just incredible!
Even them won't be enough to enliven it.
In respect to accusing me because of the delay in my interventions...
just ridiculous, since that IMO would be applicable to another
situations, where people is really in a hurry for solving some personal
problem or doubt, usually about hardware and/or software.. In addition,
the majority of the threads where I put some reply actually were opened
long time ago and I simply included thoughts, ideas, etc... not
solutions to end up the thread. The re

Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

El dom, 14-10-2007 a las 17:44 -0400, jkeating escribió:

> 
> If this were really true, they wouldn't use Fedora at all, they would
> use something else that has this software already in it or easier to
> obtain.
> 
Why not?
It's easier to put a vendaje over your eyes than digest the reality fro
some people..
The last is harder indeed. 

Daniel

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

El mié, 10-10-2007 a las 05:48 +0530, Rahul Sundaram escribió:

> 
> I guess you don't have much of an idea of who is doing the work and 
> regardless of who is doing it, the benefits is shared by everyone in the 
> community including Red Hat but certainly not limited to it.
Probably you're right here. 

> I see the necessity to capture the identity within the slogan but I 
> don't see the identity itself being questioned. It has been established 
> for a long time now.
> 
How curious! Just the opposite from I'd see both issues... :-)
Well, anyhow it was a pleasure to try to give my sincere opinion, my
thoughts and -to sum up..., the way I see things; I'm sure they were
well received and valued ;-)

Daniel

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-14 Thread Devrim GÜNDÜZ

Hi,

On Sun, 2007-10-14 at 23:33 +0200, M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
> E.g., what most people mostly love from Fedora is the Livna
> repository. 

Livna has been the only repository that broke my Fedora installation
with the mplayer (and related) packages it has.
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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-14 Thread jkeating

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 23:33:21 +0200
M Daniel R Magarzo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> E.g., what most people mostly love from Fedora is the Livna
> repository. 

That's a pretty bold statement and I can't fathom a method for you to
actually prove it.

If this were really true, they wouldn't use Fedora at all, they would
use something else that has this software already in it or easier to
obtain.

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

El mié, 10-10-2007 a las 12:01 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot escribió:
> Le Mer 10 octobre 2007 01:32, M Daniel R Magarzo a écrit :
> 
> >  Red Hat is Red Ha, and I don't care much about them, I sure they will
> > do their own things right; and Fedora should be maybe another thing,
> > not just an fixed extension from Red Hat.
> 
> Fedora inherited its core and past decisions from Red Hat. A lot of
> contributors and users chose Fedora because they liked this core (and
> Red Hat has been successful because this core is good). Should Fedora
> destroy its past just so you've less problems distinguishing between
> Fedora and Red Hat? I don't think so.
> 
I didn't mean that. Please, advice the adjetive into my paragraph:
"fixed" extension. 
Anyhow, forget my words, it's not important...

> Red Hat and Fedora are aligned on many things because both
> organisations like sound engineering.
> 
They are in its right. OK. End of discussion.

> -- 
> Nicolas Mailhot
> 

Daniel


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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

El mié, 10-10-2007 a las 04:37 +0530, Rahul Sundaram escribió:

> 
> This is serious hand waving. Debian has a non-free repository hosted by 
> Debian. Fedora does not.

Of course! Fedora leaves that "work" to other "partners" whom have
nothing to do with it.
E.g., what most people mostly love from Fedora is the Livna repository. 

Daniel

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature

2007-10-13 Thread Lloyd A

Im a little late in the disscussion but just wanted to add some

Fedora: More than just Freedom
Fedora: Freedom to operate
Fedora: Powered by Freedom

Lloyd
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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-10 Thread Nicolas Mailhot


Le Mer 10 octobre 2007 01:32, M Daniel R Magarzo a écrit :

>  Red Hat is Red Ha, and I don't care much about them, I sure they will
> do their own things right; and Fedora should be maybe another thing,
> not just an fixed extension from Red Hat.

Fedora inherited its core and past decisions from Red Hat. A lot of
contributors and users chose Fedora because they liked this core (and
Red Hat has been successful because this core is good). Should Fedora
destroy its past just so you've less problems distinguishing between
Fedora and Red Hat? I don't think so.

Red Hat and Fedora are aligned on many things because both
organisations like sound engineering.

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-09 Thread Rahul Sundaram


M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:




Yes, precisely it's quite the opposite... you fix stuff in order that
other distributions (aka Red Hat) don't have to do it; you do it for
them. 
...and that I wouldn't call "an identity sign", but almost necessity.


I guess you don't have much of an idea of who is doing the work and 
regardless of who is doing it, the benefits is shared by everyone in the 
community including Red Hat but certainly not limited to it.


http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions for details.

I see the necessity to capture the identity within the slogan but I 
don't see the identity itself being questioned. It has been established 
for a long time now.


"Enterprise employees" are merely another kind of end users and Fedora 
shared a common base being the upstream though there are different 
strategies which should be immediately obviously to those who have 
actually used the different distributions.


Rahul

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-09 Thread M Daniel R Magarzo

El dom, 07-10-2007 a las 22:50 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH escribió:
> On 10/7/07, M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
> >>> The Fedora Project is something really special, it is even the engine
> >>> of the linux community.
> >> I do not think so, sincerely. I think that sentence goes two steps
> >> forward from where it should reasonably.
> 
> I wonder what new apps or feature I'm using recently which does not
> have Fedora contributions.
> 

 Probably many of them... Sincerely, I don't see the relationship... I
seriously believe that Fedora was and is (in its main features) a very
very good distro. But what I'd never do is to measure its quality
according a lonely factor, and lesser that. 
> 
> > Chitlesh, with all the respect for you and the Fedoda Artwork team, I
> > must say that there are several distros where they much care its look.
> > Some of them come with KDE by default, what means a more polished look
> > (e.g. Suse).

> 
> In my opinion, this is something that deserves RESPECT !
> 

My paragraph started mentioning it before anything, but said that..,
everyone should be forced with themselves to say what they honestly
consider true, their opinions, etc. and this should always prevail over
silence (due to a false respect). Honest criticism is an essential part
of a project. Do not confuse silence with respect, please.
 
> 
> I'm a special case. I value quality/professional and hardwork before
> appearance as you might surely deduce from now.
> This attitude affects my movie/music selections up to my favorite distro.
> I talked to various contributors of various distributions on various
> open source events, but never saw something professional, for me to
> say "wow" (only centos). I won't choose a distro just because of its
> look, but rather how professional its contributors are.

Neither do I. But many newbie people would do. Specially if they have
not any prior reference. That's the question. 
All in all, I also value first the core over the "brands", since I know
how to setup a system and its look. 
But please do not underestimate the value of appearance. Other distros
don't do at all, and nobody grants that "a priori" a distro in
particular must be necessarily better than another one.



> 
> > You're right here too. I'm sure you are a good "ambassador" over there
> > in the net, seriously. I can imagine you in those typical forum threads
> > where the Ubuntu (Windows and other species) users generally end up
> > crushing you. Into those arenas is where really users get worked up and
> > can encourage to someone to try this one or that one distro.
> 
> 
> No, I'm not that kind of person, I promote fedora in real life mainly.
> 
> With a few minutes spent reading the threads one can automatically
> deduce the weakness of the writer. Then you point to the right URL.
> that's it ! :)
> 
> However I'm not in the distro war, as I take fedora as the upstream of
> other linux distributions, you might even see that on my blog
> postings.
> 
> Ok, I guess this discussion is going way off from its title.
> 
> 
> Chitlesh

> 
> -- 
> http://clunixchit.blogspot.com
> 

Daniel

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-09 Thread M Daniel R Magarzo

El lun, 08-10-2007 a las 00:26 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot escribió:
> Le dimanche 07 octobre 2007 à 23:15 +0200, M Daniel R Magarzo a écrit :
> 
> > Most of you (developers -mostly from Red Hat or got involved there,
> > etc...-) think that everyone that uses Linux, having chose or not
> > Fedora, is a developer too, and therefore is in condition of promote big
> > changes in a Linux project.
> 
> That's one of the "identity signs" of Fedora. We fix stuff we don't wait
> for other distributions to do it for us. And we fix stuff at every level
> — development, packaging, artwork, etc
> 
Yes, precisely it's quite the opposite... you fix stuff in order that
other distributions (aka Red Hat) don't have to do it; you do it for
them. 
...and that I wouldn't call "an identity sign", but almost necessity.

> Another "identity sign" is Freedom. We get enough slack for making hard
> decisions (when other distributions formally tag stuff 'non-free" then
> distribute it anyway and make no active effort to replace it) to know
> they are hard decisions and not everyone makes them.

"Hard decisions" are when least "controversial decisions". Many people
think that to be too much rigid (no matter the topic, whatever issue in
life..) doesn't lead to anywhere. I personally agree.

> > That's precisely your fault, I think
> > developers are completely unable to abstract themselves by a moment and
> > to think like common end users would be (empathy).
> 
> Users think short term. Red Hat and Fedora think long term. We don't
> take decisions that may haunt us later lightly. That's a third "identity
> sign". Countless users decided at a time "RHL/Fedora is not
> user-friendly, I'll use foo distro" instead and then foo distro
> disappeared because it achieved short-term user-friendliness at the cost
> of long-term user-friendliness (being still there to help users)
> 

That's a wise decision from Red Hat. If I were Red Hat, probably I'd do
the same.. all in all, my clients wouldn't be end users, but enterprise
employees. But when Fedora follows (copy, reproduce) that strategy
(better than say "principles"), it's not so much clear that they are
getting right. You believe such things and I don't, but probably I'm
wrong. All in all, I'm just _the end user_ here, no more, and I think in
"short-term"...

> We certainly have poor communication but that's not because Fedora is
> lacking identity. Fedora has strong identity. 

Don't make me laugh. Proof that the last is not true is simply that many
people are discussing about this over there. If something has -really- a
_strong identity_ it is reflected instantaneously, and noboby brings up
the issue at all.

> It wants to build a free
> community platform period. That's something inherited from Red Hat. Red
> Hat didn't achieve its market-leader situation by being confused on the
> objectives.
> 

 Red Hat is Red Ha, and I don't care much about them, I sure they will
do their own things right; and Fedora should be maybe another thing, not
just an fixed extension from Red Hat. That isn't much Freedom indeed. 
But... who put the money and the human resources? Uncle Red.

Daniel

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-09 Thread Rahul Sundaram


M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:

El dom, 07-10-2007 a las 21:36 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen escribió:

Debian has non-free bits floating around in their universe. 


And probably your own Fedora system too. 
I suppose that everything would depend on how we would define the system

"universe" (limits, etc.)


This is serious hand waving. Debian has a non-free repository hosted by 
Debian. Fedora does not.



Probably what makes to Red Hat (and therefore Fedora) be away from
non-free bytes are not actually principles, but caution against possible
legal issues. As the (Chaucer universal well-known) saying goes..."to
make a virtue of necessity". 


No. There are hundreds of very safe legal gratis non-free software. 
Fedora does ship them out of principles. No second guessing required.


Rahul

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-09 Thread M Daniel R Magarzo

El dom, 07-10-2007 a las 21:36 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen escribió:

> Debian has non-free bits floating around in their universe. 

And probably your own Fedora system too. 
I suppose that everything would depend on how we would define the system
"universe" (limits, etc.)
I don't know much people (actually no one) that configure their system
ignoring some well-know repositories, like livna, adobe, or others... In
fact, without them, a Fedora system wouldn't be so attractive/effective
(in terms of variety of packages) for a majority of average users.
Those are facts, not hypocrisy.  
Sometimes, following rules strictly just lead to a decrease or maybe a
lack of freedom indeed. On the other hand, everyone is free to follow
their way...and see.
Probably what makes to Red Hat (and therefore Fedora) be away from
non-free bytes are not actually principles, but caution against possible
legal issues. As the (Chaucer universal well-known) saying goes..."to
make a virtue of necessity". 


> Although
> most have a different definition of Freedom, Fedora picks the most
> extreme and, in essence, the only real definition of Freedom.
> 

Do you really believe this...???

> -- 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Jeroen van Meeuwen
> -kanarip
> 
> --
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> 

Take care,

Daniel




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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-08 Thread Nicu Buculei


Máirín Duffy wrote:

Nicu Buculei wrote:
What we should to to "protect": when we go live with the slogan for 
the first time we should do *a lot* of noise about it, not just put 
quietly a new banner on the site.


any ideas on how to promote it?


I have a large-scale idea: set up a place and invite people to submit 
there creation illustrating *their own* vision about freedom: photos, 
drawings, 3D art, poetry, short prose, music, video clips, animations, 
clay models, paintings... anything.


As an example, *for me* the best illustration is an image with large 
empty spaces in the wilderness, for someone else could be the sea, 
people gathered at a rock concert and so on.


this is kind of what i was thinking altho, heh, i was too lazy to gimp 
the photo up to make it more suitable for the text otherwise it'd be 
bigger and positioned a bit more nicely:


http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/freedom-slogan.png


As a simple implementation I see this possibility: write the text 
"freedom is a feature" using the Fedora font and the Fedora blue for the 
"freedom" and "feature" words (not for "is a") but without actually 
using the "fedora" word anywhere, let people to the connection by 
themselves.


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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-08 Thread Nicu Buculei


Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:


So I'm starting to see a pattern.

Native English speakers seem to *really* dig it.

Non-native speakers seem more reserved.


This is correct: I, as a non-native English speaker, dig it in Enghlish 
but would have a hard time translating it in my native language.

But I don't see this as a reason to reject it.

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature

El dom, 07-10-2007 a las 22:42 +0200, Herman Meester escribió:
> 
> 
> 2007/10/7, M Daniel R Magarzo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> El dom, 07-10-2007 a las 00:24 -0400, Gian Paolo Mureddu
> escribió:
> 

> 
>  
> Liberty and freedom are synonymous, but they are used in completely
> different contexts.
> Liberty is mainly used in social contexts, "may I take the liberty
> to..", in political contexts, "liberty as a universal aspiration of
> man", "the attack of the US government on civil liberties is, alas,
> not met with much resistance", etc. 
> 
> Freedom is a much more existential and down-to-earth word, much
> preferred to liberty when it comes to slogans such as discussed here.
> A prisoner wants freedom, not liberty. Freedom is the abstract yet
> very concrete 'version' of liberty. 
> 
> I think it is a much abused word, especially in some regions of the
> world. "God" is much more abused, though, so we can safely use the
> former.
> 

Undestood.


> My idea of a slogan:
> 
> "Fedora - not all things free suck" 
> 
> 

Very hard, not? 

> or:
> 
> "Booting freedom... [[[ OK ]]]"
> 
>  
> :)


:-))

> 
> hrmn
> -- 

My 2 cents below :-)

Fedora. Here we are.
Fedora. Is your Linux?
Fedora as your Linux.
Fedora is your Linux.
Put a Linux in your Desktop. Put Fedora.
Fedora. A Linux over your desktop. 
F8's ready. You?
F8's ready. And you?
Fedora's ready. And you?
You're ready for F?
Aren't you fedoring yet?
Fedora 8 for your mind.
Fedora. For your mind.
Fedora. Take it!
Is Fedora for you? Try it!
Is Fedora your good?
Is Fedora your gift?
Fedora. Our gift. 
Fedora. A gift for freedom.
Fedora. My key, my gift.
Fedora. A key for you inside the gift.
Fedora. A gift with the master key.
Fedora. The master key.
Fedora. The gratitude instead.
Fedora. A gift with the key inside.
Fedora, the gift.
Fedora, the master key.
Fedora. Gift and key.
Fedora. Gift and master key.
Fedora. Try out its key.
Fedora. A present for the future.
Fedora. Our present for our freedom.
Fedora. Present for our freedom.
Fedora. A present with the key.
Fedora. A key gift for ours. 
Fedora. A key gift.
Fedora. The key gift.
Fedora. A key gift on the Desk.
Fedora. A key gift for our liberty.
Fedora. A key for the ocean.
Fedora. An 8 Linux key.
Fedora. A master Linux key.
Fedora. A master key.
Fedora. Master key.
Fedora. Our key for the ocean.
Fedora. A key to the ocean.
Fedora. A key to open the ocean.
Fedora. A gift for the ocean.
Fedora. A gift for the liberty.
Fedora. Key gift.
Fedora. The key of the ocean.
Fedora. The ocean's key
Fedora. The ocean's need.


Daniel


P.S. Maybe the word "ocean" included into some of them needs somewhat
explanation..
The ocean is something that has to do in some manner with bigger values,
like infinite, its waves are there for ever; it sight is like something
infinite, suggesting, ...
The ocean is freedom too; in front of a single green field without any
tree, just some dull clouds in the sky, the ocean is homogeneous too,
apparently are almost the same, but they have nothing to do: the ocean
is dangerous, mysterious, variable, etc..
The ocean is also a place for the messages, for the communication, it
has also its own sound,...
For those who like the blue, the ocean is bluuue..
And the most important for me, the ocean is what joins all the lands,
continents. It has something magical.





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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-07 Thread Nicolas Mailhot


Le dimanche 07 octobre 2007 à 23:15 +0200, M Daniel R Magarzo a écrit :

> Most of you (developers -mostly from Red Hat or got involved there,
> etc...-) think that everyone that uses Linux, having chose or not
> Fedora, is a developer too, and therefore is in condition of promote big
> changes in a Linux project.

That's one of the "identity signs" of Fedora. We fix stuff we don't wait
for other distributions to do it for us. And we fix stuff at every level
— development, packaging, artwork, etc

Another "identity sign" is Freedom. We get enough slack for making hard
decisions (when other distributions formally tag stuff 'non-free" then
distribute it anyway and make no active effort to replace it) to know
they are hard decisions and not everyone makes them.

> That's precisely your fault, I think
> developers are completely unable to abstract themselves by a moment and
> to think like common end users would be (empathy).

Users think short term. Red Hat and Fedora think long term. We don't
take decisions that may haunt us later lightly. That's a third "identity
sign". Countless users decided at a time "RHL/Fedora is not
user-friendly, I'll use foo distro" instead and then foo distro
disappeared because it achieved short-term user-friendliness at the cost
of long-term user-friendliness (being still there to help users)

We certainly have poor communication but that's not because Fedora is
lacking identity. Fedora has strong identity. It wants to build a free
community platform period. That's something inherited from Red Hat. Red
Hat didn't achieve its market-leader situation by being confused on the
objectives.

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-07 Thread Rahul Sundaram


M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:

El lun, 08-10-2007 a las 00:18 +0530, Rahul Sundaram escribió:

M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:

You're right. The main problem IMHO is that despite everything, nobody
knows very well what are the identity signs that Fedora should have, nor
the possible target audience it should be intended. But this is another
discussion that I won't to open here.

http://gregdek.livejournal.com/16940.html



That argument is not convincing at all. If you want to put yourself a
vendaje over your eyes.., your self...


What are you doing to help? Just waving a big flag doesn't change anything.


It's possible. One read so much info throughout the weeks..
It was just a comment I read.. You seem uncomfortable with it. 
If sometime I find where it was, I promise that you will be the first I

will tell it.:-)


I am uncomfortable with people spreading misinformation, yes.


A strange colour for a skin, not? Maybe Fedora (=Teodora, Dorotea) is
ill. 


It's not a skin color. It is the color for a distribution.  Very 
different things.



Maybe like the freedom to use typical RH hats but in blue? What a
paradoxical!


It is part of a brand. Fedora's brand is explicitly different from 
others. The name, logo and colors are part of it.



In relation with "consolidate your replies", please let me know if there
is a only email that lacks of sense or not written seriously.


When you are replying to many mails, consolidate the replies. Dozens of 
mails one after another as a answer for a week's worth of mails is not 
very courteous to people reading those mails. Just common netiquette.


Rahul

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

El lun, 08-10-2007 a las 00:18 +0530, Rahul Sundaram escribió:
> M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
> > 
> > You're right. The main problem IMHO is that despite everything, nobody
> > knows very well what are the identity signs that Fedora should have, nor
> > the possible target audience it should be intended. But this is another
> > discussion that I won't to open here.
> 
> http://gregdek.livejournal.com/16940.html

That argument is not convincing at all. If you want to put yourself a
vendaje over your eyes.., your self...
Most of you (developers -mostly from Red Hat or got involved there,
etc...-) think that everyone that uses Linux, having chose or not
Fedora, is a developer too, and therefore is in condition of promote big
changes in a Linux project. That's precisely your fault, I think
developers are completely unable to abstract themselves by a moment and
to think like common end users would be (empathy). 

> > 
> > BTW, past days I've read somewhere over there (I don't remember where)
> > that Red Hat doesn't allow to Fedora teams the use of the red colour in
> > logos, oficial Fedora websites, etc.. Then, I understood why Fedora is
> > bluu everything around; 
> 
> You have read wrong information.

It's possible. One read so much info throughout the weeks..
It was just a comment I read.. You seem uncomfortable with it. 
If sometime I find where it was, I promise that you will be the first I
will tell it.:-)

>  Blue is used because it is the Fedora 
> color. 

:-)

A strange colour for a skin, not? Maybe Fedora (=Teodora, Dorotea) is
ill. 

> If Fedora art team wants to use Red they are free to.
> 

Maybe like the freedom to use typical RH hats but in blue? What a
paradoxical!

> Rahul

> Ps: Instead of sending many mails, consolidate your replies.
> 

No problem. Understood. Maybe a private one for this would have been
more elegant. I'd have understood. ;-)
What are the limit, please? 
I couldn't even see the email-messages until today, but if you say that
sending 6-8 emails are "many" you must be right..
There are tons of infinite threads almost daily that surpass this amount
per day. So, considering that I didn't reply anything from Monday until
today (Sunday), average would be... 1 per day? Do you consider it
"many"?
In relation with "consolidate your replies", please let me know if there
is a only email that lacks of sense or not written seriously.

Daniel

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-07 Thread Chitlesh GOORAH

On 10/7/07, M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
>>> The Fedora Project is something really special, it is even the engine
>>> of the linux community.
>> I do not think so, sincerely. I think that sentence goes two steps
>> forward from where it should reasonably.

I wonder what new apps or feature I'm using recently which does not
have Fedora contributions.

> Chitlesh, with all the respect for you and the Fedoda Artwork team, I
> must say that there are several distros where they much care its look.
> Some of them come with KDE by default, what means a more polished look
> (e.g. Suse).

I meant "Each Fedora release, there is a new artwork theme".
Thus this implies a lot of work
A lot of work ==>>> A lot of discussion and A lot of communication
You can even see non english artwork contributors working together on
an english platform to come up in the end with a product, (a new
artwork theme, in this case)

In my opinion, this is something that deserves RESPECT !

Now when you see other distributions having the same artwork for many
years surely there's would be more polished. However the Fedora
Artwork community has recently adopted a new strategy besides only
producing artwork. Now they are willing to promote opensource tools
they use for designing artwork.
see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/ArtTeamProjects/FedoraArtStudio

Well that deserves RESPECT TOO !

> Let me a test, Chitlesh, ask to you; please, go to both sites briefly:
> You are a really common desktop user.. Which one do you most like?
> All of them probably have, more or less, the same (respective) info
> inside, however they don't look like very much.
> And the look of the Fedora main page has improved considerably in the
> last months..

I'm a special case. I value quality/professional and hardwork before
appearance as you might surely deduce from now.
This attitude affects my movie/music selections up to my favorite distro.
I talked to various contributors of various distributions on various
open source events, but never saw something professional, for me to
say "wow" (only centos). I won't choose a distro just because of its
look, but rather how professional its contributors are.
That's the main reason why I recommend Centos after fedora.

> You're right here too. I'm sure you are a good "ambassador" over there
> in the net, seriously. I can imagine you in those typical forum threads
> where the Ubuntu (Windows and other species) users generally end up
> crushing you. Into those arenas is where really users get worked up and
> can encourage to someone to try this one or that one distro.

No, I'm not that kind of person, I promote fedora in real life mainly.

With a few minutes spent reading the threads one can automatically
deduce the weakness of the writer. Then you point to the right URL.
that's it ! :)

However I'm not in the distro war, as I take fedora as the upstream of
other linux distributions, you might even see that on my blog
postings.

Ok, I guess this discussion is going way off from its title.

Chitlesh

==:ads :==)
PS: If a user wants to do VLSI simulation, besides Fedora there is no
other distribution which is simple to use and install !!
see: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab
Now if the user wants to use proprietary vlsi simulators on linux,
AGAIN fedora and its derivatives are THE BEST solutions !! see my blog
posts why.

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature

2007-10-07 Thread Herman Meester

2007/10/7, M Daniel R Magarzo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> El dom, 07-10-2007 a las 00:24 -0400, Gian Paolo Mureddu escribió:
>
> >
> > Would (roughly) translate into:
> >
> > "Fedora: Liberty included"
> >
> > Now, I *chose* __Liberty__ instead of "freedom" given the ambiguous
> > meaning of "free" in colloquial English.
>
> "Free" is ambiguous indeed, but "freedom" is not.
>
> >  Alas even though "freedom" as
> > such is reasonably enough "universally understood" as a synonym of
> > liberty (or so is my [limited] understanding of the English language),
>
>
> It's easy to solve:
> http://diccionario.reverso.net/ingles-espanol/freedom
>
> (está clarito, ¿no?)



Liberty and freedom are synonymous, but they are used in completely
different contexts.
Liberty is mainly used in social contexts, "may I take the liberty to..", in
political contexts, "liberty as a universal aspiration of man", "the attack
of the US government on civil liberties is, alas, not met with much
resistance", etc.

Freedom is a much more existential and down-to-earth word, much preferred to
liberty when it comes to slogans such as discussed here. A prisoner wants
freedom, not liberty. Freedom is the abstract yet very concrete 'version' of
liberty.
I think it is a much abused word, especially in some regions of the world.
"God" is much more abused, though, so we can safely use the former.

My idea of a slogan:

"Fedora - not all things free suck"


or:

"Booting freedom... [[[ OK ]]]"


:)

hrmn
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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-07 Thread Matthew Miller

On Sun, Oct 07, 2007 at 09:27:07PM +0200, M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
> -Simplicity —finding the core of any idea..
>   Pass (maybe)
> -Unexpectedness —grabbing people's attention 
>  by surprising them ...
>   FAIL (IMO)

Perhaps this is the key difference between the slogan to computer-savvy
English speakers and translated. 


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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-07 Thread Jeroen van Meeuwen

M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
> El vie, 05-10-2007 a las 19:33 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen escribiÃ³:
> 
>> My gut feeling tells me I disagree although my brain admits I haven't
>> been using too much other distros lately; what distro (non-Fedora based)
>> exactly does offer Freedom as much or as strong as Fedora does?
>>
> 
> Debian maybe...?
> 

Like I suggested the question should maybe have been answered with just
gut feelings rather then actual brain activity because otherwise this is
going to end up being a rather long discussion, besides being off-topic;
Debian has non-free bits floating around in their universe. Although
most have a different definition of Freedom, Fedora picks the most
extreme and, in essence, the only real definition of Freedom.

-- 
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Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

El vie, 05-10-2007 a las 22:35 +0530, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay escribió:

> > Sounds good, but isn't primarily for fedora.
> 
> But it just fits the SUCCES bits of
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_to_Stick
> 
> :)


-Simplicity —finding the core of any idea..

Pass (maybe)

-Unexpectedness —grabbing people's attention 
 by surprising them ...

FAIL (IMO)

-Concreteness —making sure an idea can be grasped 
 and remembered later .

I'm not sure. I'd bet it wouldn't.

-Credibility —giving an idea believability    

Not much applicable IMO (this is a slogan..)


-Emotion —helping people see the importance of an idea

Pass (maybe)

-Stories —empowering people to use an idea through narrative

Not applicable here IMO

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

El vie, 05-10-2007 a las 18:59 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH escribió:
> On 10/5/07, Greg DeKoenigsberg  wrote:
> >
> > What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
> > It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?
> 
> Sounds good, but isn't primarily for fedora.
> Freedom is a Feature. Having lots of "F" does point to Fedora. But
> other linux distributions provide "freedom" too.
> 

I agree with you.

> The slogan of Fedora should be related to "what makes fedora so unique".
> 

Nobody knows. It sounds hard, but sadly..

The best approach IMO would be of a laboratory of Red Hat Enterprise
product. That explains its speedy life cicle. Therefore, according with
it, Fedora is not targeted for _desktop_ users, that is.. common end
users; it's for folks that want the latest in I.T. (hence, tech users...
that is... really a very minority). 
That's not what I would like personally, but that's what is at the
moment.

> The proposed slogan needs to be rephrased!
> perhaps: "New Features for your Freedom."
> 

I don't like it too much, but better that "Freedom is a Feature" without
doubt!!

> regards,
> Chitlesh
> -- 
> http://clunixchit.blogspot.com
> 

Daniel

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-07 Thread Rahul Sundaram


M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:


You're right. The main problem IMHO is that despite everything, nobody
knows very well what are the identity signs that Fedora should have, nor
the possible target audience it should be intended. But this is another
discussion that I won't to open here.


http://gregdek.livejournal.com/16940.html


BTW, past days I've read somewhere over there (I don't remember where)
that Red Hat doesn't allow to Fedora teams the use of the red colour in
logos, oficial Fedora websites, etc.. Then, I understood why Fedora is
bluu everything around; 


You have read wrong information. Blue is used because it is the Fedora 
color. If Fedora art team wants to use Red they are free to.


Rahul

Ps: Instead of sending many mails, consolidate your replies.

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

El vie, 05-10-2007 a las 20:16 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH escribió:

> I would rather prefer a slogan(for fedora) which values Fedora
> Contributors(RH and community) and not contributors of other distros.
> Many fedora contributors spend about 4 hours per day for fedora, at
> least it's my case. Having a slogan which values freedom that other
> distributions provide, does NOT praise the fedora community, but
> rather the "linux community" !
> 

1
Completely agree


> Many fedora technologies are poorly advertised and yet the proposed
> slogan doesn't praise fedora, but free software. Fedora isn't just
> about "free software", but a wonderful (the best and professional) +
> active community that does more than "assembling free packages".
> 

You're right. The main problem IMHO is that despite everything, nobody
knows very well what are the identity signs that Fedora should have, nor
the possible target audience it should be intended. But this is another
discussion that I won't to open here.



> The Fedora Project is something really special, it is even the engine
> of the linux community.

I do not think so, sincerely. I think that sentence goes two steps
forward from where it should reasonably. 

> The Fedora Project has many special contributors and develops anything
> for anyone.
> 
> Fedora is not a kiddy-type distribution but provides quality applications/OS.
> 

I think there no kiddy-type distros (apart from Windows :-), and those
that AFAIK Red Hat sponsored for schools (K12, etc.. -IIRC) or for the
poorest countries with O.L.P.C.
I'm not a developer nor a beta-tester, etc... so in this issue I get
everything for free, and I dislike scornful comments against other
distros. Said this.., I have to say that unfortunately most of the times
the victim of comments (I mean over there...) is Fedora. 


> Example 1:
> Aren't you proud of Fedora Artwork in each release ? Every time
> there's something new and every time one will see posts on
> planet.fedoraproject.org praising Fedora Artwork. Which other
> distributions have a better artwork community than Fedora's ? There
> isn't.
> There are many Fedora SIGs which have done wonderful work.
> 

Chitlesh, with all the respect for you and the Fedoda Artwork team, I
must say that there are several distros where they much care its look.
Some of them come with KDE by default, what means a more polished look
(e.g. Suse). 
In respect to GNOME, I think the gnome.art exists long before the Fedora
one:
http://art.gnome.org/

Most of them here I believe they use Debian and/or Ubuntu.

In respect to me, like many other Fedora/Linux-in-general users,
actually I generally prefer Gnome themes (all them available in the
repositories), and I do not hide that I dislike even the boot splash,
therefore I use to change it, and so on many things..
The F7 appearance was notably better than the F6 one, IMO. I respect
their work. But one of F6 or F5 (I do not remember yet) was, IMO, a
vulgar childish (Be aware I'm not talking about the icons made by a
woman, I do not remember now her name but I think they are cool and
fresh). This one (F7) preserves something of that (childish) yet, but I
repeat that wasn't my choice at all. 

BTW, past days I've read somewhere over there (I don't remember where)
that Red Hat doesn't allow to Fedora teams the use of the red colour in
logos, oficial Fedora websites, etc.. Then, I understood why Fedora is
bluu everything around; blue combined with white for example (in
good proportions) could be OK, but blue combined with more blue..., is
really depressing. This are basic things, the A,B,C.., I'm not a
designer nor anything related, but there are things that claims..

Let me a test, Chitlesh, ask to you; please, go to both sites briefly:

http://en.opensuse.org/Welcome_to_openSUSE.org

http://fedoraproject.org/

http://www.ubuntu.com/


You are a really common desktop user.. Which one do you most like? 
All of them probably have, more or less, the same (respective) info
inside, however they don't look like very much.
And the look of the Fedora main page has improved considerably in the
last months..


> 
> Example 2:
> In the past, people cursed fedora for X,Y and Z reasons.
> Fedora has already fixed and improved X, Y and Z.
> But still people are pointing to the X,Y and Z.
> Aren't you sick about it ?
> 


I agree. 
One of the problems of Fedora as a Project is that they don't know how
to sell their own product.
There are many Fedora email lists, there are ambassadors around the
world, etc... but we lack of a good look for the Fedora website, because
of we have the blue..., just and only the blue blue..
Who could be attracted  by something like that? 
Oh! I forget..! It doesn't have importance, since we do not need tons of
new users...We just know that we are __better__ than other distros..
Good.



> Example 3:
> someone: Hai, have you seen X has new features (P,Q,R and S) that no
> other distribution has?
> Me: Fedora has P, Q, R and S s

Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

El vie, 05-10-2007 a las 12:35 -0700, Karsten Wade escribió:
> On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 09:43 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> > What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
> 
> What's funny is, just the other day, I came up with two in the middle of
> writing something:  "Fedora means freedom" and "Fedora is freedom."

"OpenSUSE means freedom" (too..)
"Debian is freedom" (Actually, was the first..)
"Ubuntu is freedom" (too, why not?)
"Gentoo means freedom" (even more freedom.., each user of a system
builds each owns packages..)
"Slack is freedom" (too, I suppose..)
Etc...

and... if NOT, tell all them why not if asking!. I COULDN'T. 
Do you understand me? ;-)

> Anyway, similar sentiment but a different kind of depth.
> 

Yeah, more deepness...

> I like this one, too. :)
> 
> - Karsten
> -- 

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

El vie, 05-10-2007 a las 19:33 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen escribió:

> 
> My gut feeling tells me I disagree although my brain admits I haven't
> been using too much other distros lately; what distro (non-Fedora based)
> exactly does offer Freedom as much or as strong as Fedora does?
> 

Debian maybe...?



> - --
> Kind regards,
> 
> Jeroen van Meeuwen
> - -kanarip
> 

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature

El dom, 07-10-2007 a las 00:24 -0400, Gian Paolo Mureddu escribió:

> 
> Would (roughly) translate into:
> 
> "Fedora: Liberty included"
> 
> Now, I *chose* __Liberty__ instead of "freedom" given the ambiguous 
> meaning of "free" in colloquial English.

"Free" is ambiguous indeed, but "freedom" is not.

>  Alas even though "freedom" as 
> such is reasonably enough "universally understood" as a synonym of 
> liberty (or so is my [limited] understanding of the English language), 


It's easy to solve: 
http://diccionario.reverso.net/ingles-espanol/freedom

(está clarito, ¿no?)

> I 
> do believe that the Freedom in Fedora and Free and Open Source software 
> is actually "liberty" (non-ambiguous with gratis or free of [monetary] 
> cost). In Spanish there is no way to confuse "libre" with "free" (of 
> cost) unless directly stated (libre de costo)... I'm aware that it may 
> sound odd, but in the end I believe it does reflect what Fedora stands 
> for, unambiguously.
> 

The issue about the "free (software)" with the "free" word, doesn't
interferes here with anything at all! You're messing to yourself. 


Daniel

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature

El sáb, 06-10-2007 a las 19:47 -0400, Alejo Cerrat0 escribió:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> i've been following the discussion, and I'd like to add variations of
> the slogan to be considered:
> 
> 
> Fedora: Freedom Capable
> 
> 
> Freedom: Not just another feature
> 
> 
> Fedora: Freedom Integrated
> 
> 
> Fedora: Freedom of Choice (this one's a repeat)
> 
> 
> I don't think the word 'feature' is only associated with computer
> jargon, but it is indeed its stronger association. 
> It's been also incorporated to, at least in Argentina, where I come
> from, to everyday Spanish because of a lack of an accurate 1 word
> translation. 
> 
> 
> AlejoCerrato.
> -- 


Well Alejo, believe me if I tell you that here, in Spain, I've never
listened to somebody talking about "esta o esa feature". Apart from
nobody would understand you, they would look at you with amazement. 

"Feature" is perfectly translatable to the Spanish, even more... as
usually, there are several possibilities for that word:

http://diccionario.reverso.net/ingles-espanol/feature

Daniel

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

El vie, 05-10-2007 a las 23:22 +0200, JoergSimon escribió:
> Am Freitag, 5. Oktober 2007 22:20:02 schrieb John Babich:
> > On 10/5/07, Karsten Wade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > "Freedom is a feature, not a bug".
> 
> boring
> 

I agree. It seems intended for tech people. 
However, potential new tech users never would be attracted by something
like that. 

> > The point is that "Freedom is a feature" is a good slogan in that it
> > translates well and provides fertile ground for further elaboration.

I've a brief theory/thought that can be applied to non-native English
speakers, for me own experience. Maybe that explain why somebody said
before that "Freedom is a feature" seems too long.. 
That (ugly in my opinion..) slogan, in my mother tongue (Spanish) would
be literally "La libertad es una característica". Conclusion: in Spanish
(in this case), that's not an slogan. Nobody here could imagine that as
an slogan, ..believe me.
Where's problem then? I think our brain tends immediately to translate
(with or without our conscious consent..) short phrases, especially if
we think (or the mind catchs..) that that sentence in particular is
somewhat important (and this is the case of slogans, by definition). 

> 
> From my German point - my feelings are divided about this slogan,  easy to 
> consume yes - because you will not think about it - it sounds like all of the 
> slogans "freedom inside", "Fedora, the better way of live", "Freedom is a 
> feature"... boring. 

I agree.

> For me,  "what Fedora is" is not enough transported - as a alternative on a 
> poster or a shirt yes this would be a nice idea. But for me the "infinity 
> voice freedom" slogan is the better one.

"Infitiny. Voice. Freedom" is not an slogan IMHO, since it isn't even a
shaped phrase. 
And who said that an slogan must define a subject? You men are trying to
find something that someway can define what Fedora is. 
An slogan, IMHO, can try that way or can try to transmit some essence,
some idea; in the first situation, the worst (rude) way would be three
basic ideas separated by a colon. That's what we apparently have. 
No too much imagination.

> Cheers Joerg
> 
> 

Daniel

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature

2007-10-07 Thread Matthew Miller

On Sun, Oct 07, 2007 at 12:24:06AM -0400, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
> liberty (or so is my [limited] understanding of the English language), I 
> do believe that the Freedom in Fedora and Free and Open Source software 
> is actually "liberty" (non-ambiguous with gratis or free of [monetary] 
> cost). In Spanish there is no way to confuse "libre" with "free" (of 

In English, "freedom" alwys applies to the liberty-related senses of the
word, not to cost-free.


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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature

2007-10-06 Thread Gian Paolo Mureddu


Alejo Cerrat0 escribió:

Hi,

i've been following the discussion, and I'd like to add variations of 
the slogan to be considered:


Fedora: Freedom Capable

Freedom: Not just another feature

Fedora: Freedom Integrated

Fedora: Freedom of Choice (this one's a repeat)

I don't think the word 'feature' is only associated with computer 
jargon, but it is indeed its stronger association. 
It's been also incorporated to, at least in Argentina, where I come 
from, to everyday Spanish because of a lack of an accurate 1 word 
translation. 


AlejoCerrato.
I thought of a few additions myself to the slogan, but mainly thought in 
Spanish, so the *literal* translation I've made may sound a bit odd, but 
I hope to make things relatively clear...


"Fedora: Incluye Libertad"

Would (roughly) translate into:

"Fedora: Liberty included"

Now, I *chose* __Liberty__ instead of "freedom" given the ambiguous 
meaning of "free" in colloquial English. Alas even though "freedom" as 
such is reasonably enough "universally understood" as a synonym of 
liberty (or so is my [limited] understanding of the English language), I 
do believe that the Freedom in Fedora and Free and Open Source software 
is actually "liberty" (non-ambiguous with gratis or free of [monetary] 
cost). In Spanish there is no way to confuse "libre" with "free" (of 
cost) unless directly stated (libre de costo)... I'm aware that it may 
sound odd, but in the end I believe it does reflect what Fedora stands 
for, unambiguously.


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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature

2007-10-06 Thread Alejo Cerrat0

Hi,
i've been following the discussion, and I'd like to add variations of the
slogan to be considered:

Fedora: Freedom Capable

Freedom: Not just another feature

Fedora: Freedom Integrated

Fedora: Freedom of Choice (this one's a repeat)

I don't think the word 'feature' is only associated with computer jargon,
but it is indeed its stronger association.
It's been also incorporated to, at least in Argentina, where I come from, to
everyday Spanish because of a lack of an accurate 1 word translation.

AlejoCerrato.
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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-06 Thread Kamisamanou Burgess

I think the current slogan Infintity. Freedom. Voice has a more powerful
impact. However, I would think that Freedom should be first in the list.

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-06 Thread Dimitris Glezos

Στις 05-10-2007, ημέρα Παρ, και ώρα 23:22 +0200, ο/η JoergSimon έγραψε:
> For me,  "what Fedora is" is not enough transported - as a alternative on a 
> poster or a shirt yes this would be a nice idea. But for me the "infinity 
> voice freedom" slogan is the better one.
> Cheers Joerg

FWIW, I noticed that when I talk about Fedora and answer the oh-so-often
Q "Why should I install Fedora and not X or Y?" my first three points
are about a) the amount of work being done and the potential we have in
1, 5, 10 years time, b) the obsession with freedom, and c) the openness:
open discussions, democratic leadership and upstream mantra.

Which, come to think of it, are pretty good match to the "infinity,
freedom, voice" slogan. So, at least in my mind, these 3 words purely
identify Fedora from all other distributions.

"Freedom is a feature" is cool and maybe more impressive and memorable,
so we could use it as well in marketing. I believe though we should
really promote the current one *much* more than we currently do because
it captures what and why we are right to the bone.

-d

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Giacomo Succi

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I totally agree with you.

> From my German point - my feelings are divided about this slogan,
> easy to consume yes - because you will not think about it - it
> sounds like all of the slogans "freedom inside", "Fedora, the
> better way of live", "Freedom is a feature"... boring. For me,
> "what Fedora is" is not enough transported - as a alternative on a
> poster or a shirt yes this would be a nice idea. But for me the
> "infinity voice freedom" slogan is the better one Cheers Joerg

Happy Fedoring^^!

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Chris Negus

On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 11:37 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> > What we should to to "protect": when we go live with the slogan for the 
> > first 
> > time we should do *a lot* of noise about it, not just put quietly a new 
> > banner on the site.
> 
> Yep.  I agree 100%.

I like the slogan very much. If you could decide very soon to use this
slogan, I could mention it on the back cover of the Fedora 8 Bible. But
it's getting late to make a splash with the slogan in print media by the
Fedora 8 release if you wait much longer.

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread JoergSimon

Am Freitag, 5. Oktober 2007 22:20:02 schrieb John Babich:
> On 10/5/07, Karsten Wade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "Freedom is a feature, not a bug".

boring

> The point is that "Freedom is a feature" is a good slogan in that it
> translates well and provides fertile ground for further elaboration.

From my German point - my feelings are divided about this slogan,  easy to 
consume yes - because you will not think about it - it sounds like all of the 
slogans "freedom inside", "Fedora, the better way of live", "Freedom is a 
feature"... boring. 
For me,  "what Fedora is" is not enough transported - as a alternative on a 
poster or a shirt yes this would be a nice idea. But for me the "infinity 
voice freedom" slogan is the better one.
Cheers Joerg

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Saadaldine AlSaidi

I guess Freedom in fedora is not just a feature its the core and putting it as 
a feature really reduce the whole idea. maybe we can say "Fedora: Freedom is 
the essence" or "Fedora: where Freedom is the essence" 

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.


Karsten Wade a écrit :


If you said to me, "Freedom is a feature of our school," I would
understand that meaning without knowing the CS-specific context.  Why
wouldn't that apply to the usage in Fedora?


Because feature as a general concept of "element", "part", 
"characteristic" exists everywhere.


In English this very general concept has acquired a positive undertone. 
Not just characteristic but "desirable characteristic".


In CS English because all the vendors and reviewers are unable to 
compare products on quality but only fill features matrixes feature has 
become "very desirable characteristic we use to judge software exclusively"


So Freedom is a feature means
"We consider freedom is one of those very desirable characteristics we 
use to judge software exclusively"


(see how awkward it is when written explicitely?)

While a short translation in a language without CS english positive 
undertones will only go

"Freedom is a characteristic"

In "Freedom is a feature of our school," people can infer from the 
context feature is positive, even in other languages. Because 
Freedom=good-for-school is generally accepted.


In
Fedora. Freedom is a feature
you've got little context to decide whether it's a good or bad feature.

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread John Babich

On 10/5/07, Karsten Wade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> If you said to me, "Freedom is a feature of our school," I would
> understand that meaning without knowing the CS-specific context.  Why
> wouldn't that apply to the usage in Fedora?
>
> In other words, knowing the CS-specific meaning adds depth to the
> understanding of the slogan, but not knowing the CS-specific meaning
> doesn't detract from the slogan.

Likewise, a variant on "freedom is a feature" is

"Freedom is a feature, not a bug".

If that is hard to translate due to CS jargon, then it can be
expressed (in English) as

"Freedom is a feature, not a flaw",

which, I believe, conveys pretty much the same meaning with nice alliteration.

What is lost is the play on words from the common jargon saying,

"It's a feature, not a bug".

The point is that "Freedom is a feature" is a good slogan in that it
translates well and provides fertile ground for further elaboration.

John Babich
Volunteer, Fedora Project

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 01:04:13PM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> /me wonders if we need different slogans per language.  Or even, give the 
> local ambassadors the power to come up with their own Best Slogan.

Fedora certainly wouldn't be the first brand to vary its identifying marks
and/or phrases for different regions of the world.

Perhaps the English phrase will be "Freedom is a Feature", and perhaps other
languages will opt for variations such as "Fedora means Freedom", or
whatever seems to work best in that particular language and cultural
context.  The local ambassadors can lead the way here.

cheers,
- Paul

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Karsten Wade

On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 21:56 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Karsten Wade a écrit :
> > On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 18:58 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> > 
> >> While some languages like English have reused nice pre-existing words 
> >> for the "CS feature" concept, others use terribly contrived bureaucratic 
> >> words, and I suspect some do not even have any local word for "feature". 
> >> It's just not important enough for the vast majority of world's 
> >> population to justify wording. It's 100% CS jargon speak.
> > 
> > Not really ... the word 'feature' used in this way is pretty old.
> 
> You're describing how English speakers chose to apply a general word for 
> to a very specific context. You could replace feature with element, 
> property or part in your examples. You can not replace it in the 
> proposed slogan. Because feature in the slogan has a very specific CS 
> jargon meaning, and this specific meaning does not translate well.

I just figured that since the CS-specific meaning is derived directly
from the general meaning, then using the general meaning to find a word
would work.  It doesn't have to be alliterative or as short.  But there
may be a subtlety here with localization that I don't understand?

If you said to me, "Freedom is a feature of our school," I would
understand that meaning without knowing the CS-specific context.  Why
wouldn't that apply to the usage in Fedora?

In other words, knowing the CS-specific meaning adds depth to the
understanding of the slogan, but not knowing the CS-specific meaning
doesn't detract from the slogan.

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.


Karsten Wade a écrit :

On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 09:43 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:

What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?


What's funny is, just the other day, I came up with two in the middle of
writing something:  "Fedora means freedom" and "Fedora is freedom."
Anyway, similar sentiment but a different kind of depth.

I like this one, too. :)


Yours are better — jargon-free and translatable

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.


Karsten Wade a écrit :

On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 18:58 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:

While some languages like English have reused nice pre-existing words 
for the "CS feature" concept, others use terribly contrived bureaucratic 
words, and I suspect some do not even have any local word for "feature". 
It's just not important enough for the vast majority of world's 
population to justify wording. It's 100% CS jargon speak.


Not really ... the word 'feature' used in this way is pretty old.


You're describing how English speakers chose to apply a general word for 
to a very specific context. You could replace feature with element, 
property or part in your examples. You can not replace it in the 
proposed slogan. Because feature in the slogan has a very specific CS 
jargon meaning, and this specific meaning does not translate well.


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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Karsten Wade

On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 18:58 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:

> While some languages like English have reused nice pre-existing words 
> for the "CS feature" concept, others use terribly contrived bureaucratic 
> words, and I suspect some do not even have any local word for "feature". 
> It's just not important enough for the vast majority of world's 
> population to justify wording. It's 100% CS jargon speak.

Not really ... the word 'feature' used in this way is pretty old.

"A feature of Arts & Crafts bungalows is the large front porch
with wide supporting columns."

"A feature of your face is your nose."

Thus, the term is used to describe a thing that comes as part of a
complete set (house, face) and adds some unique characteristic (porch
and columns, nose).

Perhaps there is a word or term that is more similar to that meaning?

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Karsten Wade

On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 09:43 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?

What's funny is, just the other day, I came up with two in the middle of
writing something:  "Fedora means freedom" and "Fedora is freedom."
Anyway, similar sentiment but a different kind of depth.

I like this one, too. :)

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Chitlesh GOORAH

On 10/5/07, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
> My gut feeling tells me I disagree although my brain admits I haven't
> been using too much other distros lately; what distro (non-Fedora based)
> exactly does offer Freedom as much or as strong as Fedora does?

I would rather prefer a slogan(for fedora) which values Fedora
Contributors(RH and community) and not contributors of other distros.
Many fedora contributors spend about 4 hours per day for fedora, at
least it's my case. Having a slogan which values freedom that other
distributions provide, does NOT praise the fedora community, but
rather the "linux community" !

Many fedora technologies are poorly advertised and yet the proposed
slogan doesn't praise fedora, but free software. Fedora isn't just
about "free software", but a wonderful (the best and professional) +
active community that does more than "assembling free packages".

The Fedora Project is something really special, it is even the engine
of the linux community.
The Fedora Project has many special contributors and develops anything
for anyone.

Fedora is not a kiddy-type distribution but provides quality applications/OS.

Example 1:
Aren't you proud of Fedora Artwork in each release ? Every time
there's something new and every time one will see posts on
planet.fedoraproject.org praising Fedora Artwork. Which other
distributions have a better artwork community than Fedora's ? There
isn't.
There are many Fedora SIGs which have done wonderful work.

Example 2:
In the past, people cursed fedora for X,Y and Z reasons.
Fedora has already fixed and improved X, Y and Z.
But still people are pointing to the X,Y and Z.
Aren't you sick about it ?

Example 3:
someone: Hai, have you seen X has new features (P,Q,R and S) that no
other distribution has?
Me: Fedora has P, Q, R and S since at least 6 months now, perhaps even
since a year ago.
Didn't you come across this before ?
example of example 3:
http://linuxglobe.wordpress.com/2007/10/01/fedora-8-needs-to-add-features-like-ubuntu-710/

Well that my thoughts. I'll advise not to jump and choose any slogan.

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread John Babich

On 10/5/07, Jeroen van Meeuwen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
< snip >
>
> My brain comes up with another variation: "Features Freedom", but my gut
> feeling already tells me I like the original better.
>
"Freedom is a feature" has the emotional impact a good slogan requires.

More words can be added as needed, such as

"Freedom is a feature, not a bug"

"Freedom is a feature, not an option"

"Freedom is a feature worth preserving"

But the slogan remains..."Freedom is a feature"

+1

My 2 cents...

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Giacomo Succi

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
 
For me... That slogan is really powerful. Point the finger on the
major thing, regarding Fedora, before all the tech stuff, before the
art, before everything is Fedora's philosophy core.
But, for me, it'sn't right for a new slogan.
It sounds too "technical". Feature is related to a piece of software,
not to a philosophy. I don't know.
It'sn't enough for me. The sentence it self is great, but for the
general content... I don't know.
It doesn't convince me too much.
Sorry man :S.
That is just a point of view :).

Happy Fedoring^^!

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Brian Pepple

On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 09:43 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
> 
> Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too 
> long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience 
> participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
> 
> It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?

I like it.

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Jeroen van Meeuwen

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:
> On 10/5/07, Greg DeKoenigsberg  wrote:
>> What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
>> It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?
> 
> Sounds good, but isn't primarily for fedora.
> Freedom is a Feature. Having lots of "F" does point to Fedora. But
> other linux distributions provide "freedom" too.
> 
> The slogan of Fedora should be related to "what makes fedora so unique".
> 
> The proposed slogan needs to be rephrased!
> perhaps: "New Features for your Freedom."
> 
> regards,
> Chitlesh

My gut feeling tells me I disagree although my brain admits I haven't
been using too much other distros lately; what distro (non-Fedora based)
exactly does offer Freedom as much or as strong as Fedora does?

NOTE: This question doesn't need an actual answer; those who do use
other distros a lot may want to let their gut feeling answer. Better
yet, let's not have any brains involved in answering it.

I think, the catchier the slogan the more people will appreciate it's
actual meaning.

My brain comes up with another variation: "Features Freedom", but my gut
feeling already tells me I like the original better.

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:

> Sounds good, but isn't primarily for fedora.

But it just fits the SUCCES bits of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_to_Stick

:)

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Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.



So I'm starting to see a pattern.

Native English speakers seem to *really* dig it.

Non-native speakers seem more reserved.

/me wonders if we need different slogans per language.  Or even, give the 
local ambassadors the power to come up with their own Best Slogan.


--g

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:


On 10/5/07, Greg DeKoenigsberg  wrote:


What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?


Sounds good, but isn't primarily for fedora.
Freedom is a Feature. Having lots of "F" does point to Fedora. But
other linux distributions provide "freedom" too.

The slogan of Fedora should be related to "what makes fedora so unique".

The proposed slogan needs to be rephrased!
perhaps: "New Features for your Freedom."

regards,
Chitlesh



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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Chitlesh GOORAH

On 10/5/07, Greg DeKoenigsberg  wrote:
>
> What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
> It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?

Sounds good, but isn't primarily for fedora.
Freedom is a Feature. Having lots of "F" does point to Fedora. But
other linux distributions provide "freedom" too.

The slogan of Fedora should be related to "what makes fedora so unique".

The proposed slogan needs to be rephrased!
perhaps: "New Features for your Freedom."

regards,
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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.


Dimitris Glezos a écrit :


Simple, focused. Very nice slogan.

Maybe a bit more difficult to be translated than the current one
("Infinity. Freedom. Voice.").


I was about to make this point too.
I love "Freedom is a Feature" – in English.
But I haven't the faintest idea how to translate it in a satisfactory 
manner in my own language.


The problem is that while "Freedom" is a well-established universal 
concept, "feature" is obscure CS-marketoïd speak.


While some languages like English have reused nice pre-existing words 
for the "CS feature" concept, others use terribly contrived bureaucratic 
words, and I suspect some do not even have any local word for "feature". 
It's just not important enough for the vast majority of world's 
population to justify wording. It's 100% CS jargon speak.


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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Saadaldine AlSaidi

Very Impressive but i think many better slogens were provided.
Yet it is catshy in English and my mother language Arabic, but i don't know if 
it is going to be in other languages.


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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.


On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Paul Stauffer wrote:


I guess my initial comment regarding trademark was spurred by seeing the
phrase used in conjunction with the logo in your mock-up, Mo.  It looked
really good.  They looked like they *belonged* together.  I instantly
foresaw them being linked together in a myriad of contexts all over the
Fedora multiverse.  In such a scenario, where the slogan and the logo are
closely linked, it felt natural that the phrase would be serving a very
similar role to that of the logo itself, and thus they should be treated
similarly.


Hmm.

This is a good point, actually.  One of the nice things about trademark 
protection is that you can protect "elements grouped together in a certain 
way" without having to protect the individual elements themselves.


But yes -- worth more thinking after we all agree that "Freedom is a 
Feature" is the right slogan.  Which, evidently, we do.


--g

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 12:08:55PM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> while the slogan is a pretty nice statement of a defining quality of 
> fedora - omfg will the world end if someone else uses it?
> 
> e.g., if $DISTRO starts using it AND actually backs it by you know, not 
> shipping patent-infringing codecs in their distro... well isn't that 
> what we WANT? you know, others to follow our lead? and, if they pick up 
> the slogan and continue to produce a not entirely free distro, well they 
> just look stupid then! :)

I guess my initial comment regarding trademark was spurred by seeing the
phrase used in conjunction with the logo in your mock-up, Mo.  It looked
really good.  They looked like they *belonged* together.  I instantly
foresaw them being linked together in a myriad of contexts all over the
Fedora multiverse.  In such a scenario, where the slogan and the logo are
closely linked, it felt natural that the phrase would be serving a very
similar role to that of the logo itself, and thus they should be treated
similarly.

That was my leap in thinking.  It doesn't necessarily need to be done that
way.  If we continue to use only the logo in a really trademarky way, and we
just throw this phrase around as a marketing slogan wherever it feels like
it fits, then I agree that it needn't be treated as a trademark any more
than any other catch phrases we repeatedly say in our Fedora evangelism. 
But if we do end up using it closely linked with the logo, and we're using
it as a mark of Fedora's identity, then yeah, I think it needs to be treated
as such.

For now, I think it's safe to set the issue a bit to the side, and wait and
see how and if we actually end up using the thing.  But we should maybe at
least make a mental note of when we're using it in conjunction with identity
marks such as the logo, and if it seems like we're doing that more often
than not, I think it's something we should readdress.

cheers,
- Paul

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Rahul Sundaram


Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Matthew Miller wrote:

Maybe we could leave off the TM but include somewhere some 
lighthearted fine print about it being a trademark irony 
notwithstanding and we know that sounds silly but hey, gotta use the 
law to protect freedom too. I'm too tired to be really witty right now 
but maybe someone else can pick up from there. :)


Maybe.

Let me be honest about another motivation: my suspicions about the 
general usefulness of "protecting the marks" of open source projects.


I admire the Debian practice of having some marks that are fiercely 
protected, and other marks that are completely open.  The Debian swirl 
is completely open; the Debian swirl atop the genie bottle is fiercely 
protected.  Which has allowed the open Debian mark to proliferate.


I'd hoped to get this kind of agreement with Red Hat legal in regards to 
the Fedora mark -- i.e. create an open Fedora mark that anyone could use 
in any way they wished -- but was unsuccessful.


The mascot is a way to accomplish that without a second logo IMO. Worth 
considering.


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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Dimitris Glezos

Στις 05-10-2007, ημέρα Παρ, και ώρα 09:43 -0400, ο/η Greg DeKoenigsberg
έγραψε:
> What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
> 
> Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too 
> long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience 
> participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
> 
> It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?

Simple, focused. Very nice slogan.

Maybe a bit more difficult to be translated than the current one
("Infinity. Freedom. Voice.").

-d


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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.


Nicu Buculei wrote:
What we should to to "protect": when we go live with the slogan for the 
first time we should do *a lot* of noise about it, not just put quietly 
a new banner on the site.


any ideas on how to promote it?

this is kind of what i was thinking altho, heh, i was too lazy to gimp 
the photo up to make it more suitable for the text otherwise it'd be 
bigger and positioned a bit more nicely:


http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/freedom-slogan.png

Photo is 'Explosion of Light Across the Sky' by Dean Souglass and is CC 
Attribution 2.0: http://www.flickr.com/photos/deansouglass/243853/


(another one that looked nice to use, 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/1100273086)


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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.


On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Matthew Miller wrote:

Maybe we could leave off the TM but include somewhere some lighthearted 
fine print about it being a trademark irony notwithstanding and we know 
that sounds silly but hey, gotta use the law to protect freedom too. I'm 
too tired to be really witty right now but maybe someone else can pick 
up from there. :)


Maybe.

Let me be honest about another motivation: my suspicions about the general 
usefulness of "protecting the marks" of open source projects.


I admire the Debian practice of having some marks that are fiercely 
protected, and other marks that are completely open.  The Debian swirl is 
completely open; the Debian swirl atop the genie bottle is fiercely 
protected.  Which has allowed the open Debian mark to proliferate.


I'd hoped to get this kind of agreement with Red Hat legal in regards to 
the Fedora mark -- i.e. create an open Fedora mark that anyone could use 
in any way they wished -- but was unsuccessful.


As a consequence, Fedora must now take a very aggressive stance on mark 
usage, which takes up legal time and resources that could, IMHO, be *much* 
better spent elsewhere.  It also leads to long and confusing Board-level 
discussions about "who is entitled to use the Fedora mark and when," in 
all kinds of areas: respins, derivative works, ambassador collateral, 
etc., etc.


There are some pretty long and protracted debates about The Value of Marks 
to the open source community.  The OSI's aggressive enforcement of their 
Open Source mark certainly hasn't prevented the Enemies of Open Source 
from co-opting and confusing the Open Source mark, for instance.


--g

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.


Matthew Miller wrote:

On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 11:46:57AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
Or are you just remarking on the perceived irony of a phrase containing 
the word "freedom" being considered a form of intellectual property?
This point exactly.  With other slogans, I'd be less concerned.  With this 
slogan, the idea of protecting the mark gives me some pretty serious 
heartburn.


Maybe we could leave off the TM but include somewhere some lighthearted fine
print about it being a trademark irony notwithstanding and we know that
sounds silly but hey, gotta use the law to protect freedom too. I'm too
tired to be really witty right now but maybe someone else can pick up from
there. :)


while the slogan is a pretty nice statement of a defining quality of 
fedora - omfg will the world end if someone else uses it?


e.g., if $DISTRO starts using it AND actually backs it by you know, not 
shipping patent-infringing codecs in their distro... well isn't that 
what we WANT? you know, others to follow our lead? and, if they pick up 
the slogan and continue to produce a not entirely free distro, well they 
just look stupid then! :)


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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Matthew Miller

On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 11:46:57AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> >Or are you just remarking on the perceived irony of a phrase containing 
> >the word "freedom" being considered a form of intellectual property?
> This point exactly.  With other slogans, I'd be less concerned.  With this 
> slogan, the idea of protecting the mark gives me some pretty serious 
> heartburn.

Maybe we could leave off the TM but include somewhere some lighthearted fine
print about it being a trademark irony notwithstanding and we know that
sounds silly but hey, gotta use the law to protect freedom too. I'm too
tired to be really witty right now but maybe someone else can pick up from
there. :)

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.


On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Paul Stauffer wrote:

Or are you just remarking on the perceived irony of a phrase containing 
the word "freedom" being considered a form of intellectual property?


This point exactly.  With other slogans, I'd be less concerned.  With this 
slogan, the idea of protecting the mark gives me some pretty serious 
heartburn.


If we really do want to have some sort of recognizable pithy slogan that 
people will mentally associate with Fedora, then that slogan will 
clearly be a key part of Fedora's brand identity.  That's what 
trademarks *are*.  I don't see any reason to intentionally ignore that.


Ordinarily, I'd agree with you.  In this *particular* instance, I don't. 
Yet.  I could be persuaded.


--g

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.


On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Nicu Buculei wrote:


Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
"Freedom is a Feature" is a trademark of The Fedora Project and Red Hat, 
Inc.  Use of the words "Freedom is a Feature" without express written 
consent is strictly prohibited by U.S. and International Law.


Um, I don't think that would look great on Slashdot.

I'd much rather mount a big campaign after the fact that says 
"$BIGSCARYENTITY stole that line from Fedora."


What we should to to "protect": when we go live with the slogan for the first 
time we should do *a lot* of noise about it, not just put quietly a new 
banner on the site.


Yep.  I agree 100%.

--g

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 10:54:12AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> "Freedom is a Feature" is a trademark of The Fedora Project and Red Hat, 
> Inc.  Use of the words "Freedom is a Feature" without express written 
> consent is strictly prohibited by U.S. and International Law.
> 
> Um, I don't think that would look great on Slashdot.

Yeah?  I'm not saying we try to make a big deal about it or anything.  You
think someone else would?  Why?  I mean, the logo is a trademark too, right? 
Why would an official slogan that would be frequently used in connection
with the logo be any different?  Don't any of the other distributions have
trademark slogans?  Or are you just remarking on the perceived irony of a
phrase containing the word "freedom" being considered a form of intellectual
property?

If we really do want to have some sort of recognizable pithy slogan that
people will mentally associate with Fedora, then that slogan will clearly be
a key part of Fedora's brand identity.  That's what trademarks *are*.  I
don't see any reason to intentionally ignore that.

- Paul

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Nicu Buculei


Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
"Freedom is a Feature" is a trademark of The Fedora Project and Red Hat, 
Inc.  Use of the words "Freedom is a Feature" without express written 
consent is strictly prohibited by U.S. and International Law.


Um, I don't think that would look great on Slashdot.

I'd much rather mount a big campaign after the fact that says 
"$BIGSCARYENTITY stole that line from Fedora."


What we should to to "protect": when we go live with the slogan for the 
first time we should do *a lot* of noise about it, not just put quietly 
a new banner on the site.


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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.


On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Paul Stauffer wrote:


A little bit of a tangent:  If the Project adopts an official slogan like
this that we intend to use on an ongoing basis as a distinguishing
identifier, it might be a good idea to clearly indicate it as a trademark.
I don't know what all the requirements are for doing that... like, would we
need to stick a little "TM" next to it all the time, or just indicate in the
small print somewhere something like, "'Fedora', 'Fedora Project', the funny
little speech balloon logo, and 'Freedom is a Feature' are trademarks of the
Fedora Project".  Aside from the possible legal reasons for doing this,
clearly distinguishing it as a trademark would emphasize that it is the
slogan of the Project itself, and not just a catch-phrase for whatever the
release of the moment is.


*blink blink*

"Freedom is a Feature" is a trademark of The Fedora Project and Red Hat, 
Inc.  Use of the words "Freedom is a Feature" without express written 
consent is strictly prohibited by U.S. and International Law.


Um, I don't think that would look great on Slashdot.

I'd much rather mount a big campaign after the fact that says 
"$BIGSCARYENTITY stole that line from Fedora."


--g

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 10:27:14AM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/freedom.png
> whatcha think

Looks pretty good in conjunction with the logo.

A little bit of a tangent:  If the Project adopts an official slogan like
this that we intend to use on an ongoing basis as a distinguishing
identifier, it might be a good idea to clearly indicate it as a trademark. 
I don't know what all the requirements are for doing that... like, would we
need to stick a little "TM" next to it all the time, or just indicate in the
small print somewhere something like, "'Fedora', 'Fedora Project', the funny
little speech balloon logo, and 'Freedom is a Feature' are trademarks of the
Fedora Project".  Aside from the possible legal reasons for doing this,
clearly distinguishing it as a trademark would emphasize that it is the
slogan of the Project itself, and not just a catch-phrase for whatever the
release of the moment is.

Just a thought...
- Paul

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Sudheer Satyanarayana

I love the slogan. I am talking about Fedora in an GNU/Linux training 
event on 13 Oct, 07 conducted by ITPF, Banglaore, India. Inspired by 
this slogan, I got new ideas to talk about in the event.


jkeating wrote:

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 09:43:38 -0400 (EDT)
Greg DeKoenigsberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  

Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not
too long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the
audience participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.

It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks
think?



I think it's pretty awesome for a project wide slogan.

  



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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.


On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Máirín Duffy wrote:


Well...

http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/freedom.png

whatcha think


Yep.

I don't think I've ever seen this list agree so quickly on *anything*.

Let's let it bake for a little while longer, but I think that very soon 
we're going to be pimping this as "The Fedora Message".  Which probably 
means collateral, refocusing the talking points, etc., etc.


--g

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.


Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Yes as long as we somehow make it clear which one is what.


Well...

http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/freedom.png

whatcha think

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread jkeating

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 09:43:38 -0400 (EDT)
Greg DeKoenigsberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not
> too long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the
> audience participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
> 
> It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks
> think?

I think it's pretty awesome for a project wide slogan.

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Rahul Sundaram


Máirín Duffy wrote:

Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:


What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?

Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not 
too long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the 
audience participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.


It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks 
think?


So who is updating the website now? ;-)


Well...

Is it okay to have a release-specific slogan and then an overall slogan?


Yes as long as we somehow make it clear which one is what.

Rahul

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Jeremy Hogan

Hrmm. That's pretty good. +1

--jeremy

On 10/5/07, Greg DeKoenigsberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
>
> Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too
> long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience
> participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
>
> It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?
>
> --g
>
> --
> Greg DeKoenigsberg
> Community Development Manager
> Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
> "To whomsoever much hath been given...
> ...from him much shall be asked"
>
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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.


Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:


What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?

Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too 
long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience 
participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.


It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?


So who is updating the website now? ;-)


Well...

Is it okay to have a release-specific slogan and then an overall slogan?

~m

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Rahul Sundaram


Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:


What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?

Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too 
long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience 
participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.


It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?


So who is updating the website now? ;-)

Rahul

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Jeroen van Meeuwen

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> 
> What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
> 
> Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too
> long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience
> participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
> 
> It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?
> 
> --g
> 

I'm loving it. We could then also add to the fedora-release RPM:

Provides: Freedom

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> 
> What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
> 
> Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too
> long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience
> participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
> 
> It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?

Awesomeness has never been so succinctly short (and Luis says he's a
lawyer now ? ;) )


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=JSrR
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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Nayyar Ahmad

+1

On 10/5/07, Máirín Duffy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> >
> > What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
> >
> > Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too
> > long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience
> > participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
> >
> > It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks
> think?
>
> Wow, I really like it... It succinctly points out how we are different
> from other distros, and I think our defining characteristic the
> alliteration is nice too :)
>
> ~m
>
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-- 
Nayyar Ahmad
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Skype: nayyares
Blog: nayyares.blogspot.com
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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

2007-10-05 Thread Robert 'Bob' Jensen


Máirín Duffy wrote:

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:


What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?

Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too 
long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience 
participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.


It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?


Wow, I really like it... It succinctly points out how we are different 
from other distros, and I think our defining characteristic the 
alliteration is nice too :)


~m



Yeah that pretty much hits the nail on the head IMO.

Robert 'Bob' Jensen
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen
Fedora Unity Project
http://fedoraunity.org/

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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.


Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:


What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?

Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too 
long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience 
participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.


It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?


Wow, I really like it... It succinctly points out how we are different 
from other distros, and I think our defining characteristic the 
alliteration is nice too :)


~m

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Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.