Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH v3 2/2] avcodec: add external dec libvvdec for H266/VVC

[Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel]

> On May 20, 2024, at 1:05 PM, Rémi Denis-Courmont  wrote:
> 
> Le maanantaina 20. toukokuuta 2024, 22.33.45 EEST Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-
> devel a écrit :
>>> And again, you can't expect users to select decoders manually. If vvdec is
>>> the 
>>> default, hwaccel won't work. If vvdec is not the default, then it's
>>> dead code.
>> 
>> Not sure why you keep returning to this false dichotomy. 
> 
> It is the default or it is not the default. This is a true dichotomy and it 
> is 
> very disingenous to claim otherwise, so I will leave it at that.

You stated it's either the default or dead code. This is the false dichotomy I 
was referring to. Seems disingenuous to claim otherwise.

- Cosmin



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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH v3 2/2] avcodec: add external dec libvvdec for H266/VVC

[Rémi Denis-Courmont]

Le maanantaina 20. toukokuuta 2024, 22.33.45 EEST Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-
devel a écrit :
> > And again, you can't expect users to select decoders manually. If vvdec is
> > the 
> > default, hwaccel won't work. If vvdec is not the default, then it's
> > dead code.
> 
> Not sure why you keep returning to this false dichotomy. 

It is the default or it is not the default. This is a true dichotomy and it is 
very disingenous to claim otherwise, so I will leave it at that.

-- 
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http://www.remlab.net/



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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH v3 2/2] avcodec: add external dec libvvdec for H266/VVC

[Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel]

> On May 20, 2024, at 12:01 PM, Rémi Denis-Courmont  wrote:
> 
> Le maanantaina 20. toukokuuta 2024, 21.39.18 EEST Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-
> devel a écrit :
>> The same way using FDK-AAC as a decoder works, if you want to use it as the
>> *AAC decoder you have to specify the decoder with -c:a libfdk_aac before
>> the input.-
> 
> AFAIK, we don't have hwaccel for audio codecs. That sentence makes zero sense.

This is unrelated to hwaccel, I'm illustrating how a non-default decoder is 
selected in practice. It just so happens I always need to do this for audio 
currently.

> 
> And again, you can't expect users to select decoders manually. If vvdec is 
> the 
> default, hwaccel won't work. If vvdec is not the default, then it's dead code.

Not sure why you keep returning to this false dichotomy. 

You absolutely can have a decoder that's not the default, there is a facility 
for selecting it, and I use this to select the non-default decoder despite you 
claiming that non-default decoders are dead code, or that manually selecting 
them isn't a thing that users do.

>> Where is the "requiring" part coming in? I'm saying that manual decoder
>> selection is an option in the ffmpeg CLI, and can be used to select an
>> alternate decoder if the default one is not sufficient for some reason. 
> 
> So most people use libavcodec through higher-level frameworks or 
> applications, 
> not the CLI tool, and that is especially true for playback. If that's the 
> super-niche use-case for vvdec, then I agree with Kieran that it's just bloat.

Yes, the use case would be to be an alternate decoder that's available to users 
that want to use it. If that's not your use case that's ok, don't build with 
--enable-libvvdec.



- Cosmin


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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH v3 2/2] avcodec: add external dec libvvdec for H266/VVC

[Rémi Denis-Courmont]

Le maanantaina 20. toukokuuta 2024, 21.39.18 EEST Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-
devel a écrit :
> The same way using FDK-AAC as a decoder works, if you want to use it as the
> *AAC decoder you have to specify the decoder with -c:a libfdk_aac before
> the input.-

AFAIK, we don't have hwaccel for audio codecs. That sentence makes zero sense.

And again, you can't expect users to select decoders manually. If vvdec is the 
default, hwaccel won't work. If vvdec is not the default, then it's dead code.

> Where is the "requiring" part coming in? I'm saying that manual decoder
> selection is an option in the ffmpeg CLI, and can be used to select an
> alternate decoder if the default one is not sufficient for some reason. 

So most people use libavcodec through higher-level frameworks or applications, 
not the CLI tool, and that is especially true for playback. If that's the 
super-niche use-case for vvdec, then I agree with Kieran that it's just bloat.

> > To the contrary, gstreamer, mpv, VLC et al. are better equipped to handle
> > this, starting with a proper plugin architecture.
> 
> 
> Better equipped to handle what?

To handle multiple implementations of decoding for a given codec, and not 
force them as installation and load-time dependencies.

-- 
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http://www.remlab.net/



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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH v3 2/2] avcodec: add external dec libvvdec for H266/VVC

[Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel]

> On May 20, 2024, at 11:03 AM, Rémi Denis-Courmont  wrote:
> 
> Le maanantaina 20. toukokuuta 2024, 19.33.43 EEST Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-
> devel a écrit :
> 
>> hwaccel decoding seems somewhat orthogonal
> 
> How exactly will that work then? Either vvdec is the default, and hwaccel 
> won't work, or vvdec is not the default and it's essentially dead code.

The same way using FDK-AAC as a decoder works, if you want to use it as the 
*AAC decoder you have to specify the decoder with -c:a libfdk_aac before the 
input.-

> 
>>> Providing a non-default choice is a poor excuse for a bug. Most users
>>> won't know how to do that, and many FFmpeg reverse dependencies don't
>>> even allow it.
>> 
>> Need better documentation then?
> 
> Well, good luck with that. Documentation for working around as yet unknown 
> bugs sounds a bit difficult to write, and even then, requiring manual decoder 
> selection seems very user-hostile to me.

Where is the "requiring" part coming in? I'm saying that manual decoder 
selection is an option in the ffmpeg CLI, and can be used to select an 
alternate decoder if the default one is not sufficient for some reason. 

This is a thing I've had to do repeatedly over the past few years for FDK-AAC.

> 
>> Not sure that designing for the lowest common denominator of reverse
>> dependencies is the best way to do things, but at a minimum one can rebuild
>> ffmpeg with only one decoder enabled to get around this.
> 
> To the contrary, gstreamer, mpv, VLC et al. are better equipped to handle 
> this, starting with a proper plugin architecture.

Better equipped to handle what? For the usecase of transcoding it doesn't 
matter whether or not downstream player dependencies do or don't expose 
alternate decoders in libavcodec, to the extent they even use libavcodec for 
decoding.

So it seems weird to reject a patch to add a decoder option because it may or 
may not be useful to the downstream players.
 
- Cosmin
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH v3 2/2] avcodec: add external dec libvvdec for H266/VVC

[Rémi Denis-Courmont]

Le maanantaina 20. toukokuuta 2024, 19.33.43 EEST Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-
devel a écrit :
> > Adding a disabled-by-default decoder is adding bloat, if there is not a
> > specific known reason why that is needed.
 
> > This is especially true for video decoders, where the external decoders
> > typically will have no or worse optimisations for DSP functions, no
> > thread support (or not accessible via libavcodec), and no integration
> > with hwaccel.
> 
> Is this an actual problem with vvdec?

Yes?

> To me it seems like a reasonably optimized decoder with support for
> threading, etc.

It seems to be vendoring SIMDe, which is 1) a bad thing according to most 
distro policies, 2) not as good as FFmpeg optimisations generally speaking and 
3) lacking several ISAs featured by FFmpeg.

> hwaccel decoding seems somewhat orthogonal

How exactly will that work then? Either vvdec is the default, and hwaccel 
won't work, or vvdec is not the default and it's essentially dead code.

> > Providing a non-default choice is a poor excuse for a bug. Most users
> > won't know how to do that, and many FFmpeg reverse dependencies don't
> > even allow it.
> 
> Need better documentation then?

Well, good luck with that. Documentation for working around as yet unknown 
bugs sounds a bit difficult to write, and even then, requiring manual decoder 
selection seems very user-hostile to me.

> Not sure that designing for the lowest common denominator of reverse
> dependencies is the best way to do things, but at a minimum one can rebuild
> ffmpeg with only one decoder enabled to get around this.

To the contrary, gstreamer, mpv, VLC et al. are better equipped to handle 
this, starting with a proper plugin architecture.

-- 
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH v3 2/2] avcodec: add external dec libvvdec for H266/VVC

[Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel]

Trying again with better formatting, hopefully

> On May 18, 2024, at 10:48 PM, Rémi Denis-Courmont  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Le 18 mai 2024 21:55:04 GMT+03:00, Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel 
>  a écrit :
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 18, 2024, at 7:04 AM, Nuo Mi  wrote:
>>> 
>>> This happened many years ago. See the discussion here:
>>> https://patchwork.ffmpeg.org/project/ffmpeg/patch/20201221060710.12230-6-nuomi2...@gmail.com/#60589
>>> Now that we have an internal vvc decoder, we can focus on improving it.
>>> As for the encoder, it is far more complex than the decoder. Reasonable to
>>> wrapper other libraries just like libx264 and libx265...
>> 
>> I'm all for improving the internal decoder, and I agree that the internal 
>> decoder should be preferred and be used by default, but it's not clear why 
>> that should preclude adding an external decoder as an option.
> 
> Adding a disabled-by-default decoder is adding bloat, if there is not a 
> specific known reason why that is needed.
> 
> This is especially true for video decoders, where the external decoders 
> typically will have no or worse optimisations for DSP functions, no thread 
> support (or not accessible via libavcodec), and no integration with hwaccel.

Is this an actual problem with vvdec? To me it seems like a reasonably 
optimized decoder with support for threading, etc. hwaccel decoding seems 
somewhat orthogonal

> 
> The later point has become a problem even with dav1d...
> 
>> Sometimes bugs are found in the internal decoders
> 
> Providing a non-default choice is a poor excuse for a bug. Most users won't 
> know how to do that, and many FFmpeg reverse dependencies don't even allow it.

Need better documentation then? Not sure that designing for the lowest common 
denominator of reverse dependencies is the best way to do things, but at a 
minimum one can rebuild ffmpeg with only one decoder enabled to get around this.

> 
>> or some functionality may be missing, and having the option to fallback to 
>> an external decoder as a workaround is very useful in practice.
> 
> That I can agree, but what do you find missing in the VVC decoder compared to 
> libvvcdec?

This I'm not sure, perhaps there is no feature gap? Does the internal VVC 
decoder supports all features of the Main10 profile?

- Cosmin
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH v3 2/2] avcodec: add external dec libvvdec for H266/VVC

[Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel]

On May 18, 2024, at 10:48 PM, Rémi Denis-Courmont  wrote:

Le 18 mai 2024 21:55:04 GMT+03:00, Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel 
mailto:ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org> > a écrit :


On May 18, 2024, at 7:04 AM, Nuo Mi mailto:nuomi2...@gmail.com> > wrote:

This happened many years ago. See the discussion here:
https://patchwork.ffmpeg.org/project/ffmpeg/patch/20201221060710.12230-6-nuomi2...@gmail.com/#60589
 

 
Now that we have an internal vvc decoder, we can focus on improving it.
As for the encoder, it is far more complex than the decoder. Reasonable to
wrapper other libraries just like libx264 and libx265...

I'm all for improving the internal decoder, and I agree that the internal 
decoder should be preferred and be used by default, but it's not clear why that 
should preclude adding an external decoder as an option.

Adding a disabled-by-default decoder is adding bloat, if there is not a 
specific known reason why that is needed.

This is especially true for video decoders, where the external decoders 
typically will have no or worse optimisations for DSP functions, no thread 
support (or not accessible via libavcodec), 

Is this an actual problem with vvdec? To me it seems like a reasonably 
optimized decoder with support for threading, etc.

and no integration with hwaccel.

The later point has become a problem even with dav1d...

hwaccel decoding seems somewhat orthogonal


Sometimes bugs are found in the internal decoders

Providing a non-default choice is a poor excuse for a bug. Most users won't 
know how to do that, 

need better documentation?

and many FFmpeg reverse dependencies don't even allow it.

not sure that designing for the lowest common denominator of reverse 
dependencies is the best way to do things, but at a minimum one can rebuild 
ffmpeg with only one decoder enabled to get around this


or some functionality may be missing, and having the option to fallback to an 
external decoder as a workaround is very useful in practice.

That I can agree, but what do you find missing in the VVC decoder compared to 
libvvcdec?
___

This I'm not sure, perhaps there is no feature gap? Does the internal VVC 
decoder supports all features of the Main10 profile?

- Cosmin
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH v3 2/2] avcodec: add external dec libvvdec for H266/VVC

[Rémi Denis-Courmont]

Hi,

Le 18 mai 2024 21:55:04 GMT+03:00, Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel 
 a écrit :
>
>
>> On May 18, 2024, at 7:04 AM, Nuo Mi  wrote:
>> 
>> This happened many years ago. See the discussion here:
>> https://patchwork.ffmpeg.org/project/ffmpeg/patch/20201221060710.12230-6-nuomi2...@gmail.com/#60589
>> Now that we have an internal vvc decoder, we can focus on improving it.
>> As for the encoder, it is far more complex than the decoder. Reasonable to
>> wrapper other libraries just like libx264 and libx265...
>
>I'm all for improving the internal decoder, and I agree that the internal 
>decoder should be preferred and be used by default, but it's not clear why 
>that should preclude adding an external decoder as an option.

Adding a disabled-by-default decoder is adding bloat, if there is not a 
specific known reason why that is needed.

This is especially true for video decoders, where the external decoders 
typically will have no or worse optimisations for DSP functions, no thread 
support (or not accessible via libavcodec), and no integration with hwaccel.

The later point has become a problem even with dav1d...

>Sometimes bugs are found in the internal decoders

Providing a non-default choice is a poor excuse for a bug. Most users won't 
know how to do that, and many FFmpeg reverse dependencies don't even allow it.

> or some functionality may be missing, and having the option to fallback to an 
> external decoder as a workaround is very useful in practice.

That I can agree, but what do you find missing in the VVC decoder compared to 
libvvcdec?
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH v3 2/2] avcodec: add external dec libvvdec for H266/VVC

[Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel]

> On May 18, 2024, at 7:04 AM, Nuo Mi  wrote:
> 
> This happened many years ago. See the discussion here:
> https://patchwork.ffmpeg.org/project/ffmpeg/patch/20201221060710.12230-6-nuomi2...@gmail.com/#60589
> Now that we have an internal vvc decoder, we can focus on improving it.
> As for the encoder, it is far more complex than the decoder. Reasonable to
> wrapper other libraries just like libx264 and libx265...

I'm all for improving the internal decoder, and I agree that the internal 
decoder should be preferred and be used by default, but it's not clear why that 
should preclude adding an external decoder as an option.

Sometimes bugs are found in the internal decoders or some functionality may be 
missing, and having the option to fallback to an external decoder as a 
workaround is very useful in practice.

For example there's a native AAC decoder in ffmpeg but it's still useful to 
have FDK-AAC available for decoding when running into edge cases on the native 
AAC decoder, or to decode USAC while the new decoder is under development, etc.

- Cosmin
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH v3 2/2] avcodec: add external dec libvvdec for H266/VVC

[Nuo Mi]

On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 1:20 AM Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel <
ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On May 14, 2024, at 9:28 AM, Lynne via ffmpeg-devel <
> ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 14/05/2024 17:09, Christian Bartnik wrote:
> >> From: Thomas Siedel 
> >> Add external decoder VVdeC for H266/VVC decoding.
> >> Register new decoder libvvdec.
> >> Add libvvdec to wrap the vvdec interface.
> >> Enable decoder by adding --enable-libvvdec in configure step.
> >> Co-authored-by: Christian Bartnik chris1031...@gmail.com
> >> Signed-off-by: Christian Bartnik 
> >> ---
> >>  configure  |   5 +
> >>  libavcodec/Makefile|   1 +
> >>  libavcodec/allcodecs.c |   1 +
> >>  libavcodec/libvvdec.c  | 617 +
> >>  4 files changed, 624 insertions(+)
> >>  create mode 100644 libavcodec/libvvdec.c
> >
> > I would prefer to have this one skipped, as initially suggested.
>
> Why? I tried to look back through the list but didn't see anything.
>
Hi Cosmin,
This happened many years ago. See the discussion here:
https://patchwork.ffmpeg.org/project/ffmpeg/patch/20201221060710.12230-6-nuomi2...@gmail.com/#60589
Now that we have an internal vvc decoder, we can focus on improving it.
As for the encoder, it is far more complex than the decoder. Reasonable to
wrapper other libraries just like libx264 and libx265...

>
> - Cosmin
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH v3 2/2] avcodec: add external dec libvvdec for H266/VVC

[Kieran Kunhya]

In this project we prefer internal decoders to external libs.

On Fri, 17 May 2024, 18:20 Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel, <
ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On May 14, 2024, at 9:28 AM, Lynne via ffmpeg-devel <
> ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 14/05/2024 17:09, Christian Bartnik wrote:
> >> From: Thomas Siedel 
> >> Add external decoder VVdeC for H266/VVC decoding.
> >> Register new decoder libvvdec.
> >> Add libvvdec to wrap the vvdec interface.
> >> Enable decoder by adding --enable-libvvdec in configure step.
> >> Co-authored-by: Christian Bartnik chris1031...@gmail.com
> >> Signed-off-by: Christian Bartnik 
> >> ---
> >>  configure  |   5 +
> >>  libavcodec/Makefile|   1 +
> >>  libavcodec/allcodecs.c |   1 +
> >>  libavcodec/libvvdec.c  | 617 +
> >>  4 files changed, 624 insertions(+)
> >>  create mode 100644 libavcodec/libvvdec.c
> >
> > I would prefer to have this one skipped, as initially suggested.
>
> Why? I tried to look back through the list but didn't see anything.
>
> - Cosmin
>
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH v3 2/2] avcodec: add external dec libvvdec for H266/VVC

[Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel]

> On May 14, 2024, at 9:28 AM, Lynne via ffmpeg-devel  
> wrote:
> 
> On 14/05/2024 17:09, Christian Bartnik wrote:
>> From: Thomas Siedel 
>> Add external decoder VVdeC for H266/VVC decoding.
>> Register new decoder libvvdec.
>> Add libvvdec to wrap the vvdec interface.
>> Enable decoder by adding --enable-libvvdec in configure step.
>> Co-authored-by: Christian Bartnik chris1031...@gmail.com
>> Signed-off-by: Christian Bartnik 
>> ---
>>  configure  |   5 +
>>  libavcodec/Makefile|   1 +
>>  libavcodec/allcodecs.c |   1 +
>>  libavcodec/libvvdec.c  | 617 +
>>  4 files changed, 624 insertions(+)
>>  create mode 100644 libavcodec/libvvdec.c
> 
> I would prefer to have this one skipped, as initially suggested.

Why? I tried to look back through the list but didn't see anything.

- Cosmin
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH v3 2/2] avcodec: add external dec libvvdec for H266/VVC

[Christian]

> On 14. May 2024, at 18:28, Lynne via ffmpeg-devel  
> wrote:
> 
> On 14/05/2024 17:09, Christian Bartnik wrote:
>> From: Thomas Siedel 
>> Add external decoder VVdeC for H266/VVC decoding.
>> Register new decoder libvvdec.
>> Add libvvdec to wrap the vvdec interface.
>> Enable decoder by adding --enable-libvvdec in configure step.
>> Co-authored-by: Christian Bartnik chris1031...@gmail.com
>> Signed-off-by: Christian Bartnik 
>> ---
>>  configure  |   5 +
>>  libavcodec/Makefile|   1 +
>>  libavcodec/allcodecs.c |   1 +
>>  libavcodec/libvvdec.c  | 617 +
>>  4 files changed, 624 insertions(+)
>>  create mode 100644 libavcodec/libvvdec.c
> 
> I would prefer to have this one skipped, as initially suggested.

Ok, the next patch version will only contain libvvenc


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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH v3 2/2] avcodec: add external dec libvvdec for H266/VVC

[Lynne via ffmpeg-devel]

On 14/05/2024 17:09, Christian Bartnik wrote:

From: Thomas Siedel 

Add external decoder VVdeC for H266/VVC decoding.
Register new decoder libvvdec.
Add libvvdec to wrap the vvdec interface.
Enable decoder by adding --enable-libvvdec in configure step.

Co-authored-by: Christian Bartnik chris1031...@gmail.com
Signed-off-by: Christian Bartnik 
---
  configure  |   5 +
  libavcodec/Makefile|   1 +
  libavcodec/allcodecs.c |   1 +
  libavcodec/libvvdec.c  | 617 +
  4 files changed, 624 insertions(+)
  create mode 100644 libavcodec/libvvdec.c


I would prefer to have this one skipped, as initially suggested.


OpenPGP_0xA2FEA5F03F034464.asc
Description: OpenPGP public key


OpenPGP_signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
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