[filmscanners] RE: Scanner calibration
Alex writes ... > Recently I was given the IT8 35mm slide to try out my > IV ED calibration, but I have no calibration software > to handle IT8 pattern. > ... Use littleCMS with care http://www.littlecms.com/ ... the results seem to be respectable, but I doubt if it will produce anything better than the CLUT profiles which cane with your scanner. What scanning software are you going to use it with? What settings? cheerios ... shAf :o) Avalon Peninsula, Newfoundland www.micro-investigations.com (in progress) Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: Scanner calibration
Well, must admit I cannot complain on the image quality delivered by my IV ED using his default driver NikonScan 3.1.2. Nikon's CMS seems to work good indeed. However, I thought having the scanner calibrated precisely using the Q-60 TI8 slide and appropriate software might create even more precise results, which I would like to compare with driver's native colors interpretation. Frankly, this isn't something pressing me hardly, since the scanner already deliver good results without his profile customization. However I have another issue bothering me a lot. A few days ago I changed my display purchasing new Iiyama VisionMaster 454. It comes with his own setup software (INF file and ICC profile) which I downloaded from their site and installed. into my system (Win98SE). Besides of that, I tweaked the monitor's profile using Adobe Gamma utility and installed it as working monitor's profile. That was the starting point of my troubles. Once I did all that, the scanner started to deliver heavy bluish cast on slides which is easily distinguishable on both preview and scan in Photoshop and to correct it back I had either to play with analog gain feature on RGB or to try to remove that in Photoshop using Curves in RGB channels. That was really frustrating, considering the fact that with the previous monitor I didn't have such problems from the beginning. The friend of mine has recommended to remove this manually created monitor's profile from the system (it is actually started automatically altering the video card's LUT replacing the default Window's values with those generated during my own calibration). Since it is loaded automatically upon Windows startup, to remove it I had to remove the link to this file in System StartUp menu. After I did it, the cast has disappeared indeed for my happiness and the scanned results started to look much more neutral resembling the situation with old monitor. This was relaxing. However, I noticed new effect I didn't pay attention of earlier with new monitor. The scans delivered to Photoshop seemed overexposed (excessive brightness). Trying to lower the brightness (by Analog Gain, Master channel or by Curves tool in Photoshop) helps, but then, opening the pictures in something like ACDS viewer shows much darker image then it appears in Photoshop. That confused me. I was told the ACDs and most other available viewer doesn't support Color Management which means the results aren't corrected by the monitor's profile the Photoshop uses. This is frustrating. The only way left to go is to remove the Iiyama monitor's profile from Display Properties so that the default Window's display profile (if any) would only one for all applications, until I'll acquire monitor calibration hardware/software tool to create precise monitor's profile. Any thoughts ? Regards, Alex Z -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of michael shaffer Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 2:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] RE: Scanner calibration Alex writes ... > Recently I was given the IT8 35mm slide to try out my > IV ED calibration, but I have no calibration software > to handle IT8 pattern. > ... Use littleCMS with care http://www.littlecms.com/ ... the results seem to be respectable, but I doubt if it will produce anything better than the CLUT profiles which cane with your scanner. What scanning software are you going to use it with? What settings? cheerios ... shAf :o) Avalon Peninsula, Newfoundland www.micro-investigations.com (in progress) Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: Scanner calibration
Thanks Michael. My usual setup is scanning into Photoshop through calling for NikonScan (3.1.2) via Import feature, doing presets on preview in NikonScan and scan editing in Photoshop. The NikonScan is configured to use Adobe 98 RGB color space and all the editing is done in this space. I just would like to try out the calibration just to make sure this IT8 based calibration isn't going to improve drastically the image scanned appearance which is not bad at all anyway with NikonScan own management. Now, what bothers me a lot is the quite visible difference in brightness in image appearance in Photoshop and opened in ACDs or other common viewer. In Photoshop the image is much brighter, while in regular viewer it seems to be underexposed. I'm struggling a lot to figure out what should be done to correct that. Removing all monitor's profiles from the system doesn't seem to help so far... Regards, Alex Z -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of michael shaffer Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 2:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] RE: Scanner calibration Alex writes ... > Recently I was given the IT8 35mm slide to try out my > IV ED calibration, but I have no calibration software > to handle IT8 pattern. > ... Use littleCMS with care http://www.littlecms.com/ ... the results seem to be respectable, but I doubt if it will produce anything better than the CLUT profiles which cane with your scanner. What scanning software are you going to use it with? What settings? cheerios ... shAf :o) Avalon Peninsula, Newfoundland www.micro-investigations.com (in progress) Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: Scanner calibration
>The scans delivered to Photoshop seemed overexposed Completely speculative, what is the Photoshop working color space set for? Could it be that this working space is is the problem in that Photoshop is translating the scan input into its working space which is being displayed on the monitor while the scanner output that is not going through Photoshop is being displayed directly in either sRGB or your monitor's default windows or default custom profile? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Alex Zabrovsky Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 6:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] RE: Scanner calibration Well, must admit I cannot complain on the image quality delivered by my IV ED using his default driver NikonScan 3.1.2. Nikon's CMS seems to work good indeed. However, I thought having the scanner calibrated precisely using the Q-60 TI8 slide and appropriate software might create even more precise results, which I would like to compare with driver's native colors interpretation. Frankly, this isn't something pressing me hardly, since the scanner already deliver good results without his profile customization. However I have another issue bothering me a lot. A few days ago I changed my display purchasing new Iiyama VisionMaster 454. It comes with his own setup software (INF file and ICC profile) which I downloaded from their site and installed. into my system (Win98SE). Besides of that, I tweaked the monitor's profile using Adobe Gamma utility and installed it as working monitor's profile. That was the starting point of my troubles. Once I did all that, the scanner started to deliver heavy bluish cast on slides which is easily distinguishable on both preview and scan in Photoshop and to correct it back I had either to play with analog gain feature on RGB or to try to remove that in Photoshop using Curves in RGB channels. That was really frustrating, considering the fact that with the previous monitor I didn't have such problems from the beginning. The friend of mine has recommended to remove this manually created monitor's profile from the system (it is actually started automatically altering the video card's LUT replacing the default Window's values with those generated during my own calibration). Since it is loaded automatically upon Windows startup, to remove it I had to remove the link to this file in System StartUp menu. After I did it, the cast has disappeared indeed for my happiness and the scanned results started to look much more neutral resembling the situation with old monitor. This was relaxing. However, I noticed new effect I didn't pay attention of earlier with new monitor. The scans delivered to Photoshop seemed overexposed (excessive brightness). Trying to lower the brightness (by Analog Gain, Master channel or by Curves tool in Photoshop) helps, but then, opening the pictures in something like ACDS viewer shows much darker image then it appears in Photoshop. That confused me. I was told the ACDs and most other available viewer doesn't support Color Management which means the results aren't corrected by the monitor's profile the Photoshop uses. This is frustrating. The only way left to go is to remove the Iiyama monitor's profile from Display Properties so that the default Window's display profile (if any) would only one for all applications, until I'll acquire monitor calibration hardware/software tool to create precise monitor's profile. Any thoughts ? Regards, Alex Z -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of michael shaffer Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 2:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] RE: Scanner calibration Alex writes ... > Recently I was given the IT8 35mm slide to try out my > IV ED calibration, but I have no calibration software > to handle IT8 pattern. > ... Use littleCMS with care http://www.littlecms.com/ ... the results seem to be respectable, but I doubt if it will produce anything better than the CLUT profiles which cane with your scanner. What scanning software are you going to use it with? What settings? cheerios ... shAf :o) Avalon Peninsula, Newfoundland www.micro-investigations.com (in progress) Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: Scanner calibration
The NikonScan is configured fro Adobe 98 RGB (Preferences/Color Management tab) as well the Photoshop. Well, yesterday evening, for my great disappointment, I revealed that the strong bluish or to be more precise violet cast I reported previously has gone just because once struggling with it I had to tweak analog gain on RGB channels trying to compensate for it, then closing the application the Nikon software remembered that analog gain setting and automatically loaded it once the NikonScan has being re-launched, whilst I though it was cleared off. That was the reason of the cast disappearing, and not my pervious guesses about removing monitor profile. Once I cleared the analog gain settings to 0, the violet cast came back :-(( driving me crazy again. Playing with that more, I figured out that switching Nikon CMS off diminishes the cast greatly making it hardly distinguishable, which means Nikon Color Management caused it with no relation to monitor profiling at all ! Going further, I switched the Nikon CMS On again and set RGB to be Scanner RGB instead of my regular Adobe 98 RGB setting in NikonScan, in order to make the Nikon software not to use the scanner's ICC profiles embedded into the software - that cured the problem again removing the cast, but making certain impact on brightness (the image is a bit darker then). So I inferred that the reason for this violet cast is Nikon's ICC profile embedded into their software. (According to the manual, implying Scanner RGB space in Color Management/RGB tab will dismiss usage of Nikon's ICC profile in the driver, without need to switch off the whole CMS) What really confused me is that fact that a few weeks ago, scanning several rolls of slides and negs with ordinary NikonScan configuration (Nikon CMS is ON) I haven't noticed any unusual color casting over the image. The only changed since then is the monitor... Amy it still be the reason somehow ? Regards, Alex Z -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Laurie Solomon Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 7:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] RE: Scanner calibration >The scans delivered to Photoshop seemed overexposed Completely speculative, what is the Photoshop working color space set for? Could it be that this working space is is the problem in that Photoshop is translating the scan input into its working space which is being displayed on the monitor while the scanner output that is not going through Photoshop is being displayed directly in either sRGB or your monitor's default windows or default custom profile? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Alex Zabrovsky Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 6:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] RE: Scanner calibration Well, must admit I cannot complain on the image quality delivered by my IV ED using his default driver NikonScan 3.1.2. Nikon's CMS seems to work good indeed. However, I thought having the scanner calibrated precisely using the Q-60 TI8 slide and appropriate software might create even more precise results, which I would like to compare with driver's native colors interpretation. Frankly, this isn't something pressing me hardly, since the scanner already deliver good results without his profile customization. However I have another issue bothering me a lot. A few days ago I changed my display purchasing new Iiyama VisionMaster 454. It comes with his own setup software (INF file and ICC profile) which I downloaded from their site and installed. into my system (Win98SE). Besides of that, I tweaked the monitor's profile using Adobe Gamma utility and installed it as working monitor's profile. That was the starting point of my troubles. Once I did all that, the scanner started to deliver heavy bluish cast on slides which is easily distinguishable on both preview and scan in Photoshop and to correct it back I had either to play with analog gain feature on RGB or to try to remove that in Photoshop using Curves in RGB channels. That was really frustrating, considering the fact that with the previous monitor I didn't have such problems from the beginning. The friend of mine has recommended to remove this manually created monitor's profile from the system (it is actually started automatically altering the video card's LUT replacing the default Window's values with those generated during my own calibration). Since it is loaded automatically upon Windows startup, to remove it I had to remove the link to this file in System StartUp menu. After I did it, the cast has disappeared indeed for my happiness and the scanned results started to look much more neutral resembling the situation with old monitor. This was relaxing. However, I noticed new effect I didn't pay attention of earlier with new monitor. The scans delivered to Photoshop seemed overexposed (excessi
[filmscanners] Re: Scanner calibration
Arthur writes: > Are you sure altering color balance isn't > "cheating"? ;-) That depends on the direction of the alteration. If you alter colors to match real life, it's not cheating at all; if you alter them to create some sort of departure from real life, it is "cheating" (with respect to representing the image as an image from real life). I correct colors to make sure the image looks like real life. The typical example is correcting light from streetlights on Provia so that they have the proper pinkish-orange color that HPS lamps appear to have in real life, instead of the yellowish-green rendered by Provia. > The film is probably recording a more accurate > color temperature than our eye does. True for blackbody light sources, not true for discontinuous sources such as discharge lamps, which don't have a real color temperature to begin with. Film will often react much differently to discontinuous sources than will our eyes, so the film rendering has to be corrected. Additionally, even if film records blackbodies correctly, to make things look real we must simulate the "automatic white balance" of the human eye to some extent. It's true that real-world images in shadow are very blue indeed, but we don't notice that much in real life; and if the objective of the photo is to create the same perception that we had in real life, some adjustments are necessary. > As you know, we color adjust chemically and > reduce the blue component we see in shadows. No chemical adjustment is required. The brain handles white balance adjustments. Direct fatigue of retinal cells is much less of a factor, and much shorter in duration. Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] Re: Scanner calibration
Yes, exactly. He used color filters when shooting his exposures, used dodging and burning, used toners, and at later times, used someone else to print his work in the darkroom... Heck, worst of all, he turned most of the world into black and white Such deceit! Obviously, his prints can't be trusted. ;-) Art Norman Unsworth wrote: > By that definition Ansel Adams was the biggest cheat going. He modified his > pictures in the printing process significantly, not to display what he'd > captured as 'realistic', but to translate what he'd captured on film into > his vision of what he'd seen / previsualized when taking the picture. > > Norman Unsworth > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Anthony Atkielski > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 4:30 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [filmscanners] Re: Scanner calibration > > Arthur writes: > > >>Are you sure altering color balance isn't >>"cheating"? ;-) >> > > That depends on the direction of the alteration. If you alter colors to > match real life, it's not cheating at all; if you alter them to create some > sort of departure from real life, it is "cheating" (with respect to > representing the image as an image from real life). > > I correct colors to make sure the image looks like real life. The typical > example is correcting light from streetlights on Provia so that they have > the proper pinkish-orange color that HPS lamps appear to have in real life, > instead of the yellowish-green rendered by Provia. > > >>The film is probably recording a more accurate >>color temperature than our eye does. >> > > True for blackbody light sources, not true for discontinuous sources such as > discharge lamps, which don't have a real color temperature to begin with. > Film will often react much differently to discontinuous sources than will > our eyes, so the film rendering has to be corrected. > > Additionally, even if film records blackbodies correctly, to make things > look real we must simulate the "automatic white balance" of the human eye to > some extent. It's true that real-world images in shadow are very blue > indeed, but we don't notice that much in real life; and if the objective of > the photo is to create the same perception that we had in real life, some > adjustments are necessary. > > >>As you know, we color adjust chemically and >>reduce the blue component we see in shadows. >> > > No chemical adjustment is required. The brain handles white balance > adjustments. Direct fatigue of retinal cells is much less of a factor, and > much shorter in duration. > Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: Scanner calibration
Yes, I also used to work with Adobe 98 in both Nikon 3.1.2 and Photoshop delivering good, well balanced results, until recently the scanner began to deliver pinkish scans with which I'm struggling till now... Regards, Alex Z -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Anthony Atkielski Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 10:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] Re: Scanner calibration Alex writes: > If so, it seems I'll have to turn the Nikon > CMS off permanently. I've always had it turned off in Nikon Scan 2.x, as it just messes up too many things. It seems to work okay in Nikon Scan 3.1.2; I have the color space set to Adobe 1998 (the same space I use in Photoshop). Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: Scanner calibration
Thanks Lauri, but would it be hardware reason the output would be wrong completely with either Nikon CMS On or Off. In my case, switching the Nikon CMS off results in near-to-be color balanced scans featured by slight green tint (barely visible sometimes), which is nice considering the output wasn't color processed in software yet. Also, playing with profiling last weekend I incidentally tried LS2000/LS30 profile which is installed automatically into the OS upon Nikon Software installation besides of profiles for LS4000/LS40 and LS8000. I didn't pay attention on these until last Friday, and then being tired from all this profiling struggle I tried the LS2000/LS30 profile and that amazed me. This one worked much better then either LS4000/LS40, LS8000 or Nikon CMS being ON ! The problem is as follows as for my understanding: the unprocessed data out of the scanner delivers slightly greenish scans. The Nikon CMS tries to compensate for it adding substantial amount of pinkish tint which is way too much ending with heavy pink tinted image. So do the LS4000/LS40 and LS8000 profiles supplied with the Nikon driver. On the other hand, the LS2000/LS30 profile adds very delicate pink/orage tint in the amount which is just enough to compensate that green cast the hardware output is featured by. That seems to work quite well for me, so I worked out my procedure: scanning into Photoshop with Nikon CMS off on the permanent manner, and then performing Assign profile for LS2000/LS30. After that the results obtained seems to be as 99 % neutral as would be expected initially and are starting point for ordinary further manual processing of necessary. Regards, Alex Z -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Laurie Solomon Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 7:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] RE: Scanner calibration Just speculation; but the pinkish cast could be possibly dou to a change in the power current used to run the scanner; do you suffer any recent and unusual fluxes in your electric power such as brownouts? It also may be cuased by a bad or deteriorating light source (e.g., a bad or deteriorating LED or fluorescent tube in the scanner which is giving off a slightly different color or color temperature). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Alex Zabrovsky Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 6:14 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] RE: Scanner calibration Yes, I also used to work with Adobe 98 in both Nikon 3.1.2 and Photoshop delivering good, well balanced results, until recently the scanner began to deliver pinkish scans with which I'm struggling till now... Regards, Alex Z -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Anthony Atkielski Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 10:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] Re: Scanner calibration Alex writes: > If so, it seems I'll have to turn the Nikon > CMS off permanently. I've always had it turned off in Nikon Scan 2.x, as it just messes up too many things. It seems to work okay in Nikon Scan 3.1.2; I have the color space set to Adobe 1998 (the same space I use in Photoshop). Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
