Re: filmscanners: fogged film
OH, now I'm clearer on this... This relatively fast, unexposed film was X-rayed 8 times prior to being exposed. That would place it at considerable risk of being damaged. Art Norman Quinn wrote: No just the film. This is the 1st time I have had fogged film too. Did the film travel as hand baggage, or in hold luggage? Hand baggage, but it was checked about 8 times. I did not expose the film on the trip. I was exposed when I returned to Jamaica.
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
The last time I was in the states, about a year ago, I left from an airport in Syracuse NY. When I asked for hand inspection of my camera bag and film, the two elderly gents, who looked like they were retired FBI to me, said they wanted to have the equipment chemically sniffed. They took some pads of white clothlike disks, looking a bit like the cotton cosmetic pads some use for makeup removal, and wiped down some of the film canisters, the camera body, the bag, and parts of lenses. They then took these pads and placed them into some sort of device that apparently sniffed these cloth disks for residue from nitrates or other potential explosive components. Luckily, I'm not much one to get into fireworks of any kind, so I guess my camera equipment was clean and they let me through. They seemed to enjoy playing with their toys, however, and I told them how much safer I felt knowing they were being so careful. Art Lynn Allen wrote: Art wrote: Usually they won't even both[er] to open the canisters, although sometimes they will. It may (or may not) be worth mentioning that smugglers have been using film canisters for quite some time. Occasionally, there's going to be an overzealous customs inspector, especially when you travel from country to country (and Norman listed 3 US Ports of Call--Miami, Puerto Rico, and The Virgin Islands). If he carries a Jamaican passport, that would make him an automatic suspect (albeit unfairly). This doesn't deal with the problem at hand, though, which is the salvage of Norman's underwater pictures.
RE: filmscanners: fogged film
Norman Quinn wrote: Apparently two rolls of color print film were either fogged by an xray machine or poorly developed. The entire roll film is very dense but there are images there. Norman, I curious, is the edge of the film (by the holes) darkened? I'm making the assumption that the photo-sensitive emulsion is even over the width of the film, even the portion not normally exposed. If the film edge is clear, then overexposure is likely the problem. If not, then xrays are the culprit. Dave
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 21:45:11 -0400 Norman Quinn ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Would have been 8-10 passes though scanners Jamaica, Miami, Puerto = Rico, St. Thomas and back. FWIW X-ray exposure is completely cumulative, there is no reciprocity failure. That is, each bit of exposure accumulates a little more fog, even if below the baseline exposure required to produce any image at all. Regards Tony Sleep http://www.halftone.co.uk - Online portfolio exhibit; + film scanner info comparisons
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
On Wed, 16 May 2001 08:26:58 -0400 Norman Quinn ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Evenly fogged. Much different for individually overexposed frames. If you can't see any print-through of sprocket holes, it may be heat fogging rather than X rays. Regards Tony Sleep http://www.halftone.co.uk - Online portfolio exhibit; + film scanner info comparisons
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
Derek Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I presume you mean security staff at the entrance to airside rather than check in staff? Correct. Film must never be left in checked baggage these days, the X-ray machines they use for that are guaranteed to fog your film. It's a pity they don't warn anyone! Reminds me - when checking my luggage in Hong Kong I was asked to look at the Xray machine and explain what one of the items in my bag was; it was clearly a 35mm SLR. Beats me why the guy operating the machine couldn't tell! Maybe nobody ever puts cameras in their checkin luggage so it was unexpected. At that point I was on my way home and the camera was empty. Rob
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
Norman Quinn wrote: 800 and 400ISO. two rolls of kodak film Ouch. I can see why you had a problem especially given this; Would have been 8-10 passes though scanners Jamaica, Miami, Puerto Rico, St. Thomas and back. Double ouch. Could you have processed the C41 somewhere locally? I usually shoot slide film and have never had this happen B4. It's probably much slower film and has much lower latitude. Now the negs are so dense even multiple scans and auto correct just give me slight images on a white background. GRRR. Sorry to hear that. :( It sounds like they can't be saved. If you take more, you probably want to look at processing them locally or worst case actually taking a C41 chemistry kit with you. Getting the temperatures right in the Carribbean could be a challenge though. :( Rob
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
The FAA has a regulation for the US (which is also usually honored in Canada) that is a traveler requests hand inspection of camera and film, that the carry-on luggage X-Ray security person is supposed to grant you your request. That usually does not require opening the camera back. Sometime the person will try to ignore you request, but you can always ask to speak to a supervisor, who usually know the regulation. Keep in mind that most airport security people who run the X-ray machines are hired by the airlines, and have minimal training, and since the salaries aren't great, this is not usually a career position and there is a lot of change over. I found sometimes the employee is new and unaware of the FAA ruling. So be firm. Most North American X-ray machines will do minimal to no fogging of low ISO films, but the effect is cumulative, so if the film goes through numerous machines it will get fogged even if it is a slower film. Lastly, once again, do not put undeveloped film into checked in luggage as the new machines they use on checked in luggage can do great damage to unprocessed film. Art Lynn Allen wrote: Norman wrote: It is Kodak Max 800 film - what settings would you suggest for Vuescan?. While Farmers Reducer may work, I idea of a 3 hr drive to Kingston, Jamaica to drive around there looking for the chemical seems like the least preferred option. OK, this is only a side comment and suggestion, since I'm not a pro, but since the shots were gotten at considerable effort, I'd strongly consider having them duplicated before I did anything drastic. And that would probably mean Kingston, or even Miami. I'm surprised that there was X-ray fogging, unless the camera went through the machine with exposed film in it. I've only gotten X-ray fog once, and those were the circumstances. It didn't seem to affect the unexposed frames that remained in the canister. Since then, I either unload the film or keep the camera out of the X-ray machine. If they say they have to open the camera, then you'll wind the film back into the can, anyway...hopefully. Best regards, not to mention good luck--LRA From: Norman Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: filmscanners: fogged film Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 06:13:36 -0500 I think that Vuescan will obtain the maximum information available from the admittedly foggy and dense film - it's design will do that. You may have to adjust the gamma and brightness settings to do so, or even by adjusting the black point setting (after unchecking the Auto black point box on the Color tab). It is Kodak Max 800 film - what settings would you suggest for Vuescan?. While Farmers Reducer may work, I idea of a 3 hr drive to Kingston, Jamaica to drive around there looking for the chemical seems like the least preferred option. Norman Quinn Discovery Bay Marine Laboratory PO Box 35 Discovery Bay, St. Ann Jamaica 876 973 2241 phone 876 973 3091 _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
Norman Quinn wrote: No just the film. This is the 1st time I have had fogged film too. The poor technican at the lab thought his machine had misdeveloped them, but strips B4 and after mine were fine. It must be X-ray. I had just returned from a trip. Norman Quinn Older machines in some airports are notoriously bad, but most current machines in North American and European airports are new enough that they should not create problems, even with multiple exposures. I just scanned ahead and see you had 8-10 exposures and some were out of NA and you were using medium-high speed films. This probably explains it. I always request hand inspection. The best way to do this is to use clear film canisters like Fuji supplies with the film out of box, obviously, and put them flat in a heavy clear zip-lock type bag, so they can see right through. Usually they won't even both to open the canisters, although sometimes they will. Now that the new X-Ray scanner is being used on checked in luggage, you have more reason to demand hand inspection, since you are really given no choice anymore (they used to tell me to put my film in checked in luggage...) Art
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
Art wrote: Usually they won't even both[er] to open the canisters, although sometimes they will. It may (or may not) be worth mentioning that smugglers have been using film canisters for quite some time. Occasionally, there's going to be an overzealous customs inspector, especially when you travel from country to country (and Norman listed 3 US Ports of Call--Miami, Puerto Rico, and The Virgin Islands). If he carries a Jamaican passport, that would make him an automatic suspect (albeit unfairly). This doesn't deal with the problem at hand, though, which is the salvage of Norman's underwater pictures. Is there enough visible image, Norman, that you can pull some of it out in BlackWhite, using Lab or RGB colors? You *might* be able to demonstrate your point this way, or (with a heckuva lot of work), you may be able to reconstitute the colors to a semblance of what you saw while you were diving. This, unfortunately, will diminish the legal credibility of the photo (which any digital manipulation would do, anyway), but it might provide enough evidence to get a second documentary attempt started, or even financed. I feel for you, man. That was a piece of really rotten luck. But I think the comments it elicited from the List members will give you a better shot on a second attempt, if you can manage it. Best regards--LRA _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
RE: filmscanners: fogged film
On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 04:57:00 -0400 Dave Buyens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: For black white film that is very dense, there is something called farmer's reducer that chemically washes some of the denseness from the film. And the image too, if you aren't careful:) Assuming you have color negatives, you might want to investigate if such a thing works for you too? Maybe someone on the list knows? Dave B. There are selective bleaches for E6, but I don't know if they would work at all on colour neg. Probably not. They are expensive, toxic and complex, and I think you will have to make them up from raw chemical formulae. Unfortunately I am having a hard time recalling where I saw the recipes... If the worst comes to the worst, duping onto slide stock may work, using increased exposure to cancel some of the density. Regards Tony Sleep http://www.halftone.co.uk - Online portfolio exhibit; + film scanner info comparisons
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
No just the film. This is the 1st time I have had fogged film too.Did the film travel as hand baggage, or in hold luggage? Hand baggage, but it was checked about 8 times. I did not expose the film on the trip. I was exposed when I returned to Jamaica.
filmscanners: Re: filmscanners: fogged film
Norman Quinn wrote: Hand baggage, but it was checked about 8 times. I did not expose the film on the trip. It was exposed when I returned to Jamaica. I'd guess this could make the problem worse since taking the photos was trying to add an image to a film that was already exposed by the Xrays. I imagine there would be more image surviving the experience if the Xrays were overexposing film with an existing latent image? Anyone with more knowledge of chemistry care to comment? Rob Rob Geraghty [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wordweb.com
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
Though I have barely used NikonScan and know nothing of the HP scanner software, I think that Vuescan will obtain the maximum information available from the admittedly foggy and dense film - it's design will do that.You may have to adjust the gamma and brightness settings to do so, or even by adjusting the black point setting (after unchecking the Auto black point box on the Color tab). Maris Lidaka Sr - Original Message - From: Norman Quinn To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 8:58 PM Subject: filmscanners: fogged film Apparently two rolls of color print film were either fogged by an xray machine or poorly developed. The entire roll film is very dense but there are images there. Using a Nikon 2000 scanner or a HP Photo smart scanner and nikon and vuescan software, what would be the best place to start to extract the images from the film. The images were shot underwater documenting coral diseases. I am not so concerned about quality as the ability to see diseased coral. It is just too hard to go reshoot. Help - please Norman J. Quinn, Ph.D Discovery Bay Marine Laboratory University of the West Indies PO Box 35 Discovery Bay, St. Ann JAMAICA (876) 973-3092 phone (876) 973-3091 fax
RE: filmscanners: fogged film
Norman, For black white film that is very dense, there is something called farmer's reducer that chemically washes some of the denseness from the film. Assuming you have color negatives, you might want to investigate if such a thing works for you too? Maybe someone on the list knows? Dave B. Norman Quinn wrote: Apparently two rolls of color print film were either fogged by an xray machine or poorly developed. The entire roll film is very dense but there are images there. Using a Nikon 2000 scanner or a HP Photo smart scanner and nikon and vuescan software, what would be the best place to start to extract the images from the film. The images were shot underwater documenting coral diseases. I am not so concerned about quality as the ability to see diseased coral. It is just too hard to go reshoot.
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
Forget about the HP Photosmart, the way to do is with the Nikon and Vuescan, and use the multiscan feature (experiment with number of passes). Output your files in 48bit tif mode so that Photoshop has a chance of adjusting the levels.. expect some noise (grain) in the shadows. Adjust the brightness setting in Vuescan until you get a decent looking histogram. Finalize all adjustments in Photoshop. I do astrophotography, every frame I take looks like what you describe (g).. Norman Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Using a Nikon 2000 scanner or a HP Photo smart scanner and nikon and vuescan software, what would be the best place to start to extract the images from the film. The images were shot underwater documenting coral diseases. I am not so concerned about quality as the ability to see diseased coral. It is just too hard to go reshoot. Herm Astropics http://home.att.net/~hermperez
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 21:58:08 -0400 Norman Quinn ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Apparently two rolls of color print film were either fogged by an xray = machine or poorly developed.=20 The entire roll film is very dense but there are images there. Urgh! You'd probably do best to use the LS2000 with Vuescan, multiscanning xN (where N is as large as you have patience for). Scan to 48bit output, and then adjust levels, colour balance and saturation etc in PS. Regards Tony Sleep http://www.halftone.co.uk - Online portfolio exhibit; + film scanner info comparisons
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
Norman Quinn wrote: Using a Nikon 2000 scanner or a HP Photo smart scanner and nikon and vuescan software, what would be the best place to start to extract the images from the film. I agree with Tony - scan with the LS2000 to 48bit files and use autolevels in PS to get close to the most you'll get out of the film. The images were shot underwater documenting coral diseases. I am not so concerned about quality as the ability to see diseased coral. It is just too hard to go reshoot. Fair enough! I just took some photos of coral on the Great Barrier Reef and underwater photography is a whole new challenge. Some of the coral near the surface looked slightly bleached to me. Rob
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
At 08:38 AM 7/15/01 +1000, Rob Geraghty wrote: Fair enough! I just took some photos of coral on the Great Barrier Reef and underwater photography is a whole new challenge. Some of the coral near the surface looked slightly bleached to me. If they're anything like the corals off the coast of Florida... that might be because they're dead or dying. rafe b.
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
I presume you mean security staff at the entrance to airside rather than check in staff? Film must never be left in checked baggage these days, the X-ray machines they use for that are guaranteed to fog your film. [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rob Geraghty) wrote: Norman Quinn wrote: No just the film. This is the 1st time I have had fogged film too. The poor technican at the lab thought his machine had misdeveloped them, but strips B4 and after mine were fine. It must be X-ray. I had just returned from a trip. Out of interest what speed was the film? Did you do a lot of flights with the film? In the USA a lot of airlines end up needing several flights to get someone to their destination - I *think* they only x-ray film once when it is checked in, but they may recheck it. If you went on a long trip involving flights on several different days, the film would be xrayed each time, and the effect is cumulative. In the past I have carried the films in a separate bag and asked the checkin staff to manually inspect it. Rob
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
--- Norman Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm surprised that there was X-ray fogging, unless the camera went through the machine with exposed film in it. If you do not use high ISO film you can let it through the X-ray for HANDBAGGAGE safely a few times. But NEVER leave film in checked baggage as some airports have X-ray machines that can visibly damage it. The same applies for film that you leave in the camera (which you probably don't check in) and unexposed film. Only developed film is safe. Robert __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
Norman Quinn wrote:No just the film. This is the 1st time I have had fogged film too.The poor technican at the lab thought his machine had misdeveloped them, but strips B4 and after mine were fine.It must be X-ray. I had just returned from a trip.Out of interest what speed was the film? 800 and 400ISO. two rolls of kodak film Did you do a lot of flights withthe film? Would have been 8-10 passes though scanners Jamaica, Miami, Puerto Rico, St. Thomas and back. In the USA a lot of airlines end up needing several flights toget someone to their destination I usually shoot slide film and have never had this happen B4. Now the negs are so dense even multiple scans and auto correct just give me slight images on a white background. GRRR. Quinn
Re: filmscanners: fogged film
Vuescan's settings are so cryptic that I couldn't suggest any concrete numbers. I would just suggest that after your initial Preview, you start by increasing the Image brightness to 2 or 3 perhaps, try different Gamma numbers, uncheck Auto black point and try 0 or some decimal (this I've never needed to try), and even play with the White point number %. The nice thing is that after each adjustment just click Prev Mem and rather than a lengthy re-prescan the program will redo it's memorized prescanned image and give you a quick result. Maris - Original Message - From: Norman Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 6:13 AM Subject: Re: filmscanners: fogged film | | I think that Vuescan will obtain the maximum information available | from the admittedly foggy and dense film - it's design will do that. | You | may have to adjust the gamma and brightness settings to do so, or even by | adjusting the black point setting (after unchecking the Auto black point | box on the Color tab). | | It is Kodak Max 800 film - what settings would you suggest for Vuescan?. | While Farmers Reducer may work, I idea of a 3 hr drive to Kingston, Jamaica | to drive around there looking for the chemical seems like the least | preferred option. | | Norman Quinn | Discovery Bay Marine Laboratory | PO Box 35 | Discovery Bay, St. Ann | Jamaica | | 876 973 2241 phone | 876 973 3091 | |
