Re: filmscanners: Printer dither and discontinuities
Photoscientia wrote: > Hi Tony. > > >> I haven't a problem with the gamut, it's wider than most print processes, it's that >> the Epson's seem incapable of subtlety in places. This becomes fairly obvious if >> you try and print a graduated bar that runs through all hues. This seems to be the >> case in sRGB or anything else. > > > I've found the same with the 1270, but what's worse is the saturation seems to vary > across the spectrum. > Colour is either in-your-face for reds and yellows, or practically non-existent for > blues and greens. > It seems to me a CMYK printer with Epson inks, which have a pretty bright cyan dye, (although I can't speak for their 1270 dye set) should be able to produce a nice result across the spectrum with the right papers. Have you noticed if the cyan dye for the 870/1270 is more muted than in earlier Epson ink sets? You are right that Epson makes a pretty bright magenta and yellow ink. Epson sent me a sample print from the 1270 of a woman model biting a blue silk scarf and wearing a dark blue silk blouse. Interestingly, there are no greens in it at all, and the blues are blue-grays. Even the model's skin tones lack the necessary green - she is very "pink", and her blond hair leans to the pink too. So maybe the cyan is the problem... Come to think of it, isn't it the cyan dye that is vulnerable to ozone or whatever causes the dreaded "orange" death? > The inability to control the red and yellow saturation separately in the printer >driver > is infuriating, and the print cost per sheet is disgusting. > Mine's going back under Epson's buy-back programme. > I can wait 'til they come to their senses and take the stupid chip out of the > cartridges. > The chip in the cartridge was an obvious run-around the US legislation which requires 3rd party consumables to be unrestricted. The only way Epson could violate this was to add a "feature" (the removable cart that could remember how much ink was in it) that was patentable. Although Epson has every right to require their inks be used during the warranty period (or not accept warranty repair costs on units which are using non-Epson inks), this method of using "the chip" seems unfair to me. I suspect someone will develop a hack of their driver or a dummy chip which will trick the system into reading a constantly full cartridge, but then one will never know when the cart might become empty. I suggest you tell them that one of the reasons you are returning the printer is due to this chip in the cartridge. If they find enough negative feedback, they just might have to change things. Although, to date, I have used only Epson inks in my printers, coming to dozens of cartridges (I did buy them in a wholesale lot) I personally would not buy a printer which locked me into Epson's inks only, not only for cost considerations, but also because the company could decided to stop making the carts, or could go bankrupt, leaving me with a useless printer. Further still, unlike some of the low end printers which Epson makes little profit on, the 870/1270 were at the high end of their printer line, so they are not "giving away" these printers hoping to make the money back on the ink. Ironically, the very cheapest printers Epson makes, which sell for less than $49 US in some cases, allow for refill or third party carts, and these are the ones where the markup on the printer is not very large. Art
Re: filmscanners: Printer dither and discontinuities
Hi Tony. > I haven't a problem with the gamut, it's wider than most print processes, it's that > the Epson's seem incapable of subtlety in places. This becomes fairly obvious if > you try and print a graduated bar that runs through all hues. This seems to be the > case in sRGB or anything else. I've found the same with the 1270, but what's worse is the saturation seems to vary across the spectrum. Colour is either in-your-face for reds and yellows, or practically non-existent for blues and greens. The inability to control the red and yellow saturation separately in the printer driver is infuriating, and the print cost per sheet is disgusting. Mine's going back under Epson's buy-back programme. I can wait 'til they come to their senses and take the stupid chip out of the cartridges. Regards, Pete.
RE: filmscanners: Printer dither and discontinuities
I've been told by an Epson dealer that Epson does not make money selling printers, but on selling paper and ink, so forget the idea that they will ever take out the chip. The dealer told me that he himself doesn't make money on the printers, but on the materials that support it. BTW, this dealer was telling me this in an approving voice. He admired Epson for taking this policy. Also, I have the 2000P, not the 1270, so it's not strictly comparable, but it certainly does not exhibit the traits you describe. It produces absolutely flawless, repeatable, even, and predictable results. Sounds like you might have a lemon. Frank Paris [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=62684 > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Photoscientia > Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 4:40 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: filmscanners: Printer dither and discontinuities > > > Hi Tony. > > > > I haven't a problem with the gamut, it's wider than most print > processes, it's that > > the Epson's seem incapable of subtlety in places. This becomes > fairly obvious if > > you try and print a graduated bar that runs through all hues. > This seems to be the > > case in sRGB or anything else. > > I've found the same with the 1270. Colour is either in your face, > or practically > non-existent. > What's worse is that the saturation varies across the spectrum. > The inability to control the red and yellow saturation separately > is infuriating, and > the print cost per sheet is disgusting. > Mine's going back under Epson's buy-back programme. > I can wait 'til they come to their senses and take the stupid > chip out of the > cartridges, and realise that saturation isn't everything. > > Regards, Pete. >
Re: filmscanners: Printer dither and discontinuities
Hi Tony. > I haven't a problem with the gamut, it's wider than most print processes, it's that > the Epson's seem incapable of subtlety in places. This becomes fairly obvious if > you try and print a graduated bar that runs through all hues. This seems to be the > case in sRGB or anything else. I've found the same with the 1270. Colour is either in your face, or practically non-existent. What's worse is that the saturation varies across the spectrum. The inability to control the red and yellow saturation separately is infuriating, and the print cost per sheet is disgusting. Mine's going back under Epson's buy-back programme. I can wait 'til they come to their senses and take the stupid chip out of the cartridges, and realise that saturation isn't everything. Regards, Pete.
Re: filmscanners: Printer dither and discontinuities
On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 11:49:08 -0800 Dana Trout ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > However, if you choose sRGB as your > "standard" RGB space when you print the image, almost everything is > within the gamut of the 6-color printers. I haven't a problem with the gamut, it's wider than most print processes, it's that the Epson's seem incapable of subtlety in places. This becomes fairly obvious if you try and print a graduated bar that runs through all hues. This seems to be the case in sRGB or anything else. Anyhow, I'll look at the image... Regards Tony Sleep http://www.halftone.co.uk - Online portfolio & exhibit; + film scanner info & comparisons
RE: filmscanners: Printer dither and discontinuities
Dana writes ... > Tony, I've noticed some bad bumps also so I created a test panel to > help figure out what's going on. > > Take a look at the test panels at the bottom of > http://www.troutcom.com/gdtpug/profiles/test-images.html > > Do be careful when interpreting prints made from this image: if you > have PhotoShop set to a wide gamut the range of colors > exceeds what any printer can reasonably print. I know (using PS6 with Windows), the print dialog offers up a multitude of color management options. If you select "use printer's color management" what happens?? What happens if you select "AdobeRGB" or "document color space", and choose the "relative colorimetric" rendering intent?? (... which I understand is the best rendering intent for RGB=>CMYK ...) In any case, why doesn't a profile-to-printer_space correct for these "out-of-gamut" problems?? I ask because the options and permutations are almost infinite. Do you know of a good FAQ or text which describes these possibilities? (The primary reason I await "Real World PS6") shAf :o)
filmscanners: Printer dither and discontinuities
Tony, I've noticed some bad bumps also so I created a test panel to help figure out what's going on. Take a look at the test panels at the bottom of http://www.troutcom.com/gdtpug/profiles/test-images.html Do be careful when interpreting prints made from this image: if you have PhotoShop set to a wide gamut the range of colors exceeds what any printer can reasonably print. However, if you choose sRGB as your "standard" RGB space when you print the image, almost everything is within the gamut of the 6-color printers. Yeah, I know we don't like sRGB, but it _is_ useful for testing the smoothness of the transitions between colors without getting waylaid by artifacts of handling out-of-gamut colors. --Dana -- From: Tony Sleep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: filmscanners: SS4000 and LS-2000 real value? Date: Monday, January 22, 2001 10:00 AM snip the residual coarseness of the dither patter and some sharp discontinuities in the gamut which make for some quite jarring transitions in tone, specially WRT greens. snip
