Re: [Finale] [OT] hn trans up/down
Yes, a brief note to TRANSPOSE DOWN (as Vaughan Williams used) wold help avoid confusion. Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com - Original Message - From: "Ryan" To: Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] [OT] hn trans up/down Speaking of copyists slavishly following score clef changes; I'm playing a few Szymanowski pieces (from the 20's and 30's) this weekend with the orchestra. In one passage, the second part is notated in bass clef old notation as D on the middle line. This is the same as treble clef D above middle C. In my opinion, there is no reason to notate this in bass clef as the treble version is more easily readable. I think it's because the 2nd and 4th parts are written on the same staff in the score and the 4th's passage is considerably lower, warranting a clef change. Old notation is still alive and well, and players have no problem reading it. A note from the composer/copyist would be immensely helpful to the player. On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 5:40 AM, Robert Patterson < rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote: I agree with those saying to put a written instruction in the score. The player will likely infer wrongly if your part is low enough to go below the staff. An example is the Rochberg Trio for cl, hn, pno. The horn part rarely switches to bass clef, but when it does it is for extremely low notes such as written E below the staff. I have heard a recording by a world-class player with these notes in the wrong octave. (The score is written in concert pitch, so determining the correct octave is not hard, but the way the part is written it would be easy to infer it as old notation and never bother to check the score.) As for whether there is in precedent for putting a written instruction, there is plenty. An example is the Ligeti Trio for vln, hn, pno. At the first occurrence of bass clef there is a note stating that it sounds a 5th lower. There is also plenty of reason for confusion. Composers like Strauss continued to use old-notation right up to the ends of their careers. (In Strauss's case, the 1940s.) The 2nd Viennese School parts all use old notation, sometimes written absurdly high on the staves, which leads to many players playing them an octave too *low*! All of Shostakovich's parts use old notation, as I believe do all of Prokofiev's. Prokofiev's use of bass clef is doubly confusing because Prokofiev wrote all his scores in C. Apparently it was up to the copiest to decide which clefs to use in the part, and sometimes the copiests slavishly followed the clef-changes in the score, which also leads to absurdly high notes on old-notation bass clef and thus to wrong octaves being played. A written instruction costs nothing and should minimize the risk. On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:04 PM, SN jef chippewa wrote: > > in a new orch work (new music played by an orch experienced with new music), > there is no need today to mention that regardless of clef the transposition > is down a 5th, correct? i.e. the up/down in treble/bass clef is to be > considered "old school" and the horn players will assume the modern standard > because it is a new work? > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] extracting a movement
Hi Dennis, Two different files = Save As... But if the system deletion method works for you, that is cool too. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 11 Mar 2010, at 11:48 AM, dc wrote: > Darcy James Argue écrit: >> Use a page offset to change the page numbers. Change the layout of the >> Finale page that will be the "first" page. Don't delete anything. > > Thanks, Darcy. That's what I started to do. But I think I prefer to have two > different files, so I'm using the system deletion method. > > Thanks also to Dennis. > > From the Other One. > > > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] hn trans up/down
Speaking of copyists slavishly following score clef changes; I'm playing a few Szymanowski pieces (from the 20's and 30's) this weekend with the orchestra. In one passage, the second part is notated in bass clef old notation as D on the middle line. This is the same as treble clef D above middle C. In my opinion, there is no reason to notate this in bass clef as the treble version is more easily readable. I think it's because the 2nd and 4th parts are written on the same staff in the score and the 4th's passage is considerably lower, warranting a clef change. Old notation is still alive and well, and players have no problem reading it. A note from the composer/copyist would be immensely helpful to the player. On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 5:40 AM, Robert Patterson < rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote: > I agree with those saying to put a written instruction in the score. > The player will likely infer wrongly if your part is low enough to go > below the staff. An example is the Rochberg Trio for cl, hn, pno. The > horn part rarely switches to bass clef, but when it does it is for > extremely low notes such as written E below the staff. I have heard a > recording by a world-class player with these notes in the wrong > octave. (The score is written in concert pitch, so determining the > correct octave is not hard, but the way the part is written it would > be easy to infer it as old notation and never bother to check the > score.) > > As for whether there is in precedent for putting a written > instruction, there is plenty. An example is the Ligeti Trio for vln, > hn, pno. At the first occurrence of bass clef there is a note stating > that it sounds a 5th lower. > > There is also plenty of reason for confusion. Composers like Strauss > continued to use old-notation right up to the ends of their careers. > (In Strauss's case, the 1940s.) The 2nd Viennese School parts all use > old notation, sometimes written absurdly high on the staves, which > leads to many players playing them an octave too *low*! All of > Shostakovich's parts use old notation, as I believe do all of > Prokofiev's. Prokofiev's use of bass clef is doubly confusing because > Prokofiev wrote all his scores in C. Apparently it was up to the > copiest to decide which clefs to use in the part, and sometimes the > copiests slavishly followed the clef-changes in the score, which also > leads to absurdly high notes on old-notation bass clef and thus to > wrong octaves being played. > > A written instruction costs nothing and should minimize the risk. > > On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:04 PM, SN jef chippewa > wrote: > > > > in a new orch work (new music played by an orch experienced with new > music), > > there is no need today to mention that regardless of clef the > transposition > > is down a 5th, correct? i.e. the up/down in treble/bass clef is to be > > considered "old school" and the horn players will assume the modern > standard > > because it is a new work? > > > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Wireless keyboard for Mac w/numeric keypad
Darcy... I have one (Apple bluetooth keyboard with numeric keypad)-- old and dirty but still works -- that I could easily part with for a non-eBay- exorbitant price (like whatever you wanna offer plus shipping). I got tired of dealing with re-establishing the bluetooth link every time I took my laptop somewhere, batteries, etc. and liked the feel of the new thin keyboards so I got one of the wired new keyboards with keypad and love it. So if you want to make a deal, contact me off-list. Neal Gittleman ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Text expressions : 'poco' italic or not?
At 10:53 AM +0100 3/11/10, Eric Fiedler wrote: The general rule, set forth for example in the chapter on the NBA in Bärenreiter's "Editionsrichtlinien" (latest edition: Bärenreiter 2000), is that _all_ additions by the editor should be clearly designated as such. This means _cursive_ for added text, dotted slurs [in my humble opinion too fussy!) and so on. They go on to write that "all text taken over from the source, including dynamic signs like f and p etc.[and your poco forte] should be in normal, non-cursive print." (p.63f.) Of course, if you want to put such markings in cursive, as Finale and Sibelius seem to want to do, that you can put your additions in [brackets], which is not particularly beautiful but has the advantage of being intuitively clear to the user. Thanks, Eric. Valuable to know. But it's interesting that the word "cursive," which in the U.S. means hand-written and connected rather than hand-printed as individual letters, apparently means "italic" either in German or in translation. At least that's how I would interpret your quotation. Quite honestly I've seen so many variations on this theme that I have to question whether there actually is any accepted "standard" at all, except perhaps for individual publishers' house styles. And while most publishers draw a distinction between scholarly editions (in which the Bärenreiter "rule" certainly should apply) and performing editions in which the editor's work is never distinguished, it is very frustrating to be stuck with a "performing edition" and not to have the important information that the editor has hidden, since I prefer to make my own decisions in many cases, and especially in the case of musica ficta. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Text expressions : 'poco' italic or not?
Of course I meant to write "italic" (=german "kursiv"). The problem is, see, sometimes when you're writing/thinking fast, the part of the brain responsible for keeping languages separate from each other tends to short out, and you get "mixtures" like this without you even being aware of them ... until they're caught by your friends in cyberspace! ;-) Cheers! Eric On 11.03.2010, at 12:23, dhbailey wrote: Do you really mean "cursive" as in "handwritten in flowing script?" Habsburger Verlag Frankfurt (Dr. Fiedler) www.habsburgerverlag.de eric.f.fied...@t-online.de e.fied...@em.uni-frankfurt.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] hn trans up/down
At 6:04 AM +0100 3/11/10, SN jef chippewa wrote: in a new orch work (new music played by an orch experienced with new music), there is no need today to mention that regardless of clef the transposition is down a 5th, correct? i.e. the up/down in treble/bass clef is to be considered "old school" and the horn players will assume the modern standard because it is a new work? I believe that's true, except of course that the transposition is UP a 5th, not down a 5th. But regarding bass clef you should be correct. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] extracting a movement
Use a page offset to change the page numbers. Change the layout of the Finale page that will be the "first" page. Don't delete anything. You'll have to force full staff names on that system but that's easy to do. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 11 Mar 2010, at 4:24 AM, dc wrote: > Darcy James Argue écrit: >> PDF. > > It will end up as a PDF, but first I have to change the layout of the first > page, and change the page numbering. So what's the best way of doing this > without messing up the layout? Deleting what precedes doesn't work. > > Dennis > > > > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] hn trans up/down
I agree with those saying to put a written instruction in the score. The player will likely infer wrongly if your part is low enough to go below the staff. An example is the Rochberg Trio for cl, hn, pno. The horn part rarely switches to bass clef, but when it does it is for extremely low notes such as written E below the staff. I have heard a recording by a world-class player with these notes in the wrong octave. (The score is written in concert pitch, so determining the correct octave is not hard, but the way the part is written it would be easy to infer it as old notation and never bother to check the score.) As for whether there is in precedent for putting a written instruction, there is plenty. An example is the Ligeti Trio for vln, hn, pno. At the first occurrence of bass clef there is a note stating that it sounds a 5th lower. There is also plenty of reason for confusion. Composers like Strauss continued to use old-notation right up to the ends of their careers. (In Strauss's case, the 1940s.) The 2nd Viennese School parts all use old notation, sometimes written absurdly high on the staves, which leads to many players playing them an octave too *low*! All of Shostakovich's parts use old notation, as I believe do all of Prokofiev's. Prokofiev's use of bass clef is doubly confusing because Prokofiev wrote all his scores in C. Apparently it was up to the copiest to decide which clefs to use in the part, and sometimes the copiests slavishly followed the clef-changes in the score, which also leads to absurdly high notes on old-notation bass clef and thus to wrong octaves being played. A written instruction costs nothing and should minimize the risk. On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:04 PM, SN jef chippewa wrote: > > in a new orch work (new music played by an orch experienced with new music), > there is no need today to mention that regardless of clef the transposition > is down a 5th, correct? i.e. the up/down in treble/bass clef is to be > considered "old school" and the horn players will assume the modern standard > because it is a new work? > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Text expressions : 'poco' italic or not?
In German, Russian and many other languages, italic fonts are known as cursive (German: Kursiv, Russian: Курсив (Kursiv)). Eric does not mean a handwriting font. FYI, italic fonts are historically based on Italian cursive scripts. Andrew On 11 March 2010 21:53, dhbailey wrote: > Eric Fiedler wrote: > >> The general rule, set forth for example in the chapter on the NBA in >> Bärenreiter's "Editionsrichtlinien" (latest edition: Bärenreiter 2000), is >> that _all_ additions by the editor should be clearly designated as such. >> This means _cursive_ for added text, dotted slurs [in my humble opinion too >> fussy!) and so on. They go on to write that "all text taken over from the >> source, including dynamic signs like f and p etc.[and your poco forte] >> should be in normal, non-cursive print." (p.63f.) Of course, if you want to >> put such markings in cursive, as Finale and Sibelius seem to want to do, >> that you can put your additions in [brackets], which is not particularly >> beautiful but has the advantage of being intuitively clear to the user. >> Cheers! >> Eric >> >> > Do you really mean "cursive" as in "handwritten in flowing script?" Wow! > I've never seen Finale nor Sibelius try to use a handwriting font -- could > you please more be specific about what you mean by "cursive?" > > > -- > David H. Bailey > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > -- Andrew Moschou Secretary Adelaide University Choral Society ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] extracting a movement
On Thu, March 11, 2010 2:50 am, dc wrote: > What's the easiest way to extract the last movement of a piece to make a > separate edition of it? The most obvious solution - deleting all that > precedes - loses all the optimization and the layout. (The only changes in > layout required are on the first page of music, since I have to add a > title, etc.) To your exact question I have no answer. What I would do is create a copy of the document, change the pagination, add a blank page ahead if needed to start the music on a right-hand page, and create a PDF of just that much (using whatever method is easiest for your setup). Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Text expressions : 'poco' italic or not?
Eric Fiedler wrote: The general rule, set forth for example in the chapter on the NBA in Bärenreiter's "Editionsrichtlinien" (latest edition: Bärenreiter 2000), is that _all_ additions by the editor should be clearly designated as such. This means _cursive_ for added text, dotted slurs [in my humble opinion too fussy!) and so on. They go on to write that "all text taken over from the source, including dynamic signs like f and p etc.[and your poco forte] should be in normal, non-cursive print." (p.63f.) Of course, if you want to put such markings in cursive, as Finale and Sibelius seem to want to do, that you can put your additions in [brackets], which is not particularly beautiful but has the advantage of being intuitively clear to the user. Cheers! Eric Do you really mean "cursive" as in "handwritten in flowing script?" Wow! I've never seen Finale nor Sibelius try to use a handwriting font -- could you please more be specific about what you mean by "cursive?" -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Finale List Bounce Score
Bounces are epidemic on this list, so I genuinely doubt that it has to do with any individual's settings. I'm not on enough lists to guess how common this problem is, but for as long as I can remember I've been reading answers to questions I've never received. With a little luck one finds that most of them will have the original questions somewhere in the post. But it certainly seems to me to be something legitimate to ask Henry about, especially if so many people are having the same experience. --David Lawrence ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] [OT] hn trans up/down
> in a new orch work (new music played by an orch experienced with new > music), there is no need today to mention that regardless of clef the > transposition is down a 5th, correct? i.e. the up/down in > treble/bass clef is to be considered "old school" and the horn > players will assume the modern standard because it is a new work? The "old" notation for horn of bass clef being written an octave lower than treble clef is archaic and completely disappeared almost 100 years ago. I don't recall seeing a score from any century that included additional information about whether the horn notation is new or old style; it is gleaned from the context. If the player sees notes with ledger lines below the staff in bass clef, or sudden large leaps down when treble changes to bass clef, the assumption will be old style notation. You probably have nothing to worry about, unless you're writing in such a low range that the player wonders if it's possible that it should be an octave higher. Best to stay in treble clef if at all possible; it's not unusual to see notes for horn in treble clef as low as an octave below middle C (concert F). Lee Actor Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic Assistant Conductor, Nova Vista Symphony http://www.leeactor.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Text expressions : 'poco' italic or not?
The general rule, set forth for example in the chapter on the NBA in Bärenreiter's "Editionsrichtlinien" (latest edition: Bärenreiter 2000), is that _all_ additions by the editor should be clearly designated as such. This means _cursive_ for added text, dotted slurs [in my humble opinion too fussy!) and so on. They go on to write that "all text taken over from the source, including dynamic signs like f and p etc.[and your poco forte] should be in normal, non-cursive print." (p.63f.) Of course, if you want to put such markings in cursive, as Finale and Sibelius seem to want to do, that you can put your additions in [brackets], which is not particularly beautiful but has the advantage of being intuitively clear to the user. Cheers! Eric On 11.03.2010, at 01:46, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Good day: Hi all: I am working on some 18th century manuscripts, many times I will see "poco F" or "poco piano" or "poco forte." The default text setting in some music engraving applications is for italic (e.g. Sibelius); but aren't italics traditionally seen as editorial additions, wouldn't having "poco" in italics be wrong if the wording is actually present in the manuscript source(s)? Thank you kindly, Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Habsburger Verlag Frankfurt (Dr. Fiedler) www.habsburgerverlag.de eric.f.fied...@t-online.de e.fied...@em.uni-frankfurt.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Text expressions : 'poco' italic or not?
Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Good day: Hi all: I am working on some 18th century manuscripts, many times I will see "poco F" or "poco piano" or "poco forte." The default text setting in some music engraving applications is for italic (e.g. Sibelius); but aren't italics traditionally seen as editorial additions, wouldn't having "poco" in italics be wrong if the wording is actually present in the manuscript source(s)? Thank you kindly, Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale If you carefully examine the dynamic markings, they're in italic already, so using italic for any modifying words looks more uniform in my opinion. It also is what I'm used to seeing in older engraved music. Italics in music doesn't indicate editorial content -- most of the time the use of [ and ] around the material is what I'm used to seeing to indicate editorial addition. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] extracting a movement
Instead of deleting measures, use the page layout tool to delete systems. Optimization and distances between systems/staves will move with the music. Michael On 11 Mar 2010, at 08:50, dc wrote: What's the easiest way to extract the last movement of a piece to make a separate edition of it? The most obvious solution - deleting all that precedes - loses all the optimization and the layout. (The only changes in layout required are on the first page of music, since I have to add a title, etc.) Thanks, Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] extracting a movement
PDF. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 11 Mar 2010, at 2:50 AM, dc wrote: > What's the easiest way to extract the last movement of a piece to make a > separate edition of it? The most obvious solution - deleting all that > precedes - loses all the optimization and the layout. (The only changes in > layout required are on the first page of music, since I have to add a title, > etc.) > > Thanks, > > Dennis > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
