[Finale] [OT] hn trans up/down
in a new orch work (new music played by an orch experienced with new music), there is no need today to mention that regardless of clef the transposition is down a 5th, correct? i.e. the up/down in treble/bass clef is to be considered "old school" and the horn players will assume the modern standard because it is a new work? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] hn trans up/down
I would say that you are correct, but as a horn player, I always appreciate a written note clarifying the use of bass clef. It's easy to include and it removes any doubt. Ryan On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:04 PM, SN jef chippewa > wrote: in a new orch work (new music played by an orch experienced with new music), there is no need today to mention that regardless of clef the transposition is down a 5th, correct? i.e. the up/down in treble/bass clef is to be considered "old school" and the horn players will assume the modern standard because it is a new work? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] [OT] hn trans up/down
> in a new orch work (new music played by an orch experienced with new > music), there is no need today to mention that regardless of clef the > transposition is down a 5th, correct? i.e. the up/down in > treble/bass clef is to be considered "old school" and the horn > players will assume the modern standard because it is a new work? The "old" notation for horn of bass clef being written an octave lower than treble clef is archaic and completely disappeared almost 100 years ago. I don't recall seeing a score from any century that included additional information about whether the horn notation is new or old style; it is gleaned from the context. If the player sees notes with ledger lines below the staff in bass clef, or sudden large leaps down when treble changes to bass clef, the assumption will be old style notation. You probably have nothing to worry about, unless you're writing in such a low range that the player wonders if it's possible that it should be an octave higher. Best to stay in treble clef if at all possible; it's not unusual to see notes for horn in treble clef as low as an octave below middle C (concert F). Lee Actor Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic Assistant Conductor, Nova Vista Symphony http://www.leeactor.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] hn trans up/down
I agree with those saying to put a written instruction in the score. The player will likely infer wrongly if your part is low enough to go below the staff. An example is the Rochberg Trio for cl, hn, pno. The horn part rarely switches to bass clef, but when it does it is for extremely low notes such as written E below the staff. I have heard a recording by a world-class player with these notes in the wrong octave. (The score is written in concert pitch, so determining the correct octave is not hard, but the way the part is written it would be easy to infer it as old notation and never bother to check the score.) As for whether there is in precedent for putting a written instruction, there is plenty. An example is the Ligeti Trio for vln, hn, pno. At the first occurrence of bass clef there is a note stating that it sounds a 5th lower. There is also plenty of reason for confusion. Composers like Strauss continued to use old-notation right up to the ends of their careers. (In Strauss's case, the 1940s.) The 2nd Viennese School parts all use old notation, sometimes written absurdly high on the staves, which leads to many players playing them an octave too *low*! All of Shostakovich's parts use old notation, as I believe do all of Prokofiev's. Prokofiev's use of bass clef is doubly confusing because Prokofiev wrote all his scores in C. Apparently it was up to the copiest to decide which clefs to use in the part, and sometimes the copiests slavishly followed the clef-changes in the score, which also leads to absurdly high notes on old-notation bass clef and thus to wrong octaves being played. A written instruction costs nothing and should minimize the risk. On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:04 PM, SN jef chippewa wrote: > > in a new orch work (new music played by an orch experienced with new music), > there is no need today to mention that regardless of clef the transposition > is down a 5th, correct? i.e. the up/down in treble/bass clef is to be > considered "old school" and the horn players will assume the modern standard > because it is a new work? > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] hn trans up/down
At 6:04 AM +0100 3/11/10, SN jef chippewa wrote: in a new orch work (new music played by an orch experienced with new music), there is no need today to mention that regardless of clef the transposition is down a 5th, correct? i.e. the up/down in treble/bass clef is to be considered "old school" and the horn players will assume the modern standard because it is a new work? I believe that's true, except of course that the transposition is UP a 5th, not down a 5th. But regarding bass clef you should be correct. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] hn trans up/down
Speaking of copyists slavishly following score clef changes; I'm playing a few Szymanowski pieces (from the 20's and 30's) this weekend with the orchestra. In one passage, the second part is notated in bass clef old notation as D on the middle line. This is the same as treble clef D above middle C. In my opinion, there is no reason to notate this in bass clef as the treble version is more easily readable. I think it's because the 2nd and 4th parts are written on the same staff in the score and the 4th's passage is considerably lower, warranting a clef change. Old notation is still alive and well, and players have no problem reading it. A note from the composer/copyist would be immensely helpful to the player. On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 5:40 AM, Robert Patterson < rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote: > I agree with those saying to put a written instruction in the score. > The player will likely infer wrongly if your part is low enough to go > below the staff. An example is the Rochberg Trio for cl, hn, pno. The > horn part rarely switches to bass clef, but when it does it is for > extremely low notes such as written E below the staff. I have heard a > recording by a world-class player with these notes in the wrong > octave. (The score is written in concert pitch, so determining the > correct octave is not hard, but the way the part is written it would > be easy to infer it as old notation and never bother to check the > score.) > > As for whether there is in precedent for putting a written > instruction, there is plenty. An example is the Ligeti Trio for vln, > hn, pno. At the first occurrence of bass clef there is a note stating > that it sounds a 5th lower. > > There is also plenty of reason for confusion. Composers like Strauss > continued to use old-notation right up to the ends of their careers. > (In Strauss's case, the 1940s.) The 2nd Viennese School parts all use > old notation, sometimes written absurdly high on the staves, which > leads to many players playing them an octave too *low*! All of > Shostakovich's parts use old notation, as I believe do all of > Prokofiev's. Prokofiev's use of bass clef is doubly confusing because > Prokofiev wrote all his scores in C. Apparently it was up to the > copiest to decide which clefs to use in the part, and sometimes the > copiests slavishly followed the clef-changes in the score, which also > leads to absurdly high notes on old-notation bass clef and thus to > wrong octaves being played. > > A written instruction costs nothing and should minimize the risk. > > On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:04 PM, SN jef chippewa > wrote: > > > > in a new orch work (new music played by an orch experienced with new > music), > > there is no need today to mention that regardless of clef the > transposition > > is down a 5th, correct? i.e. the up/down in treble/bass clef is to be > > considered "old school" and the horn players will assume the modern > standard > > because it is a new work? > > > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] [OT] hn trans up/down
Yes, a brief note to TRANSPOSE DOWN (as Vaughan Williams used) wold help avoid confusion. Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com - Original Message - From: "Ryan" To: Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] [OT] hn trans up/down Speaking of copyists slavishly following score clef changes; I'm playing a few Szymanowski pieces (from the 20's and 30's) this weekend with the orchestra. In one passage, the second part is notated in bass clef old notation as D on the middle line. This is the same as treble clef D above middle C. In my opinion, there is no reason to notate this in bass clef as the treble version is more easily readable. I think it's because the 2nd and 4th parts are written on the same staff in the score and the 4th's passage is considerably lower, warranting a clef change. Old notation is still alive and well, and players have no problem reading it. A note from the composer/copyist would be immensely helpful to the player. On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 5:40 AM, Robert Patterson < rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote: I agree with those saying to put a written instruction in the score. The player will likely infer wrongly if your part is low enough to go below the staff. An example is the Rochberg Trio for cl, hn, pno. The horn part rarely switches to bass clef, but when it does it is for extremely low notes such as written E below the staff. I have heard a recording by a world-class player with these notes in the wrong octave. (The score is written in concert pitch, so determining the correct octave is not hard, but the way the part is written it would be easy to infer it as old notation and never bother to check the score.) As for whether there is in precedent for putting a written instruction, there is plenty. An example is the Ligeti Trio for vln, hn, pno. At the first occurrence of bass clef there is a note stating that it sounds a 5th lower. There is also plenty of reason for confusion. Composers like Strauss continued to use old-notation right up to the ends of their careers. (In Strauss's case, the 1940s.) The 2nd Viennese School parts all use old notation, sometimes written absurdly high on the staves, which leads to many players playing them an octave too *low*! All of Shostakovich's parts use old notation, as I believe do all of Prokofiev's. Prokofiev's use of bass clef is doubly confusing because Prokofiev wrote all his scores in C. Apparently it was up to the copiest to decide which clefs to use in the part, and sometimes the copiests slavishly followed the clef-changes in the score, which also leads to absurdly high notes on old-notation bass clef and thus to wrong octaves being played. A written instruction costs nothing and should minimize the risk. On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:04 PM, SN jef chippewa wrote: > > in a new orch work (new music played by an orch experienced with new music), > there is no need today to mention that regardless of clef the transposition > is down a 5th, correct? i.e. the up/down in treble/bass clef is to be > considered "old school" and the horn players will assume the modern standard > because it is a new work? > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
