Re: [Finale] Digital music stands
From: dhbailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 08:40:46 -0400 To: Subject: Re: [Finale] Digital music stands > Actually, many (most?) of the EULAs that I've actually read > through have included text to the effect that I have a right > to make a backup of the medium. True enough, which is one of the factors courts consider when determining Fair Use-- common industry practice. If most software companies allow a backup copy, any potential plaintiff is going to be hard-pressed to argue his rights are somehow being violated by allowing back-up copies when everyone else in the business gets by just fine. >> Does this Fair Use principle apply to making "back-up" copies of sheet >> music? Who knows? A definitive answer can't be stated one way or the other >> until a court somewhere rules in a case involving sheet music (or something >> very similar). > Courts have ruled on that -- the publishers have won when > they have taken various entities to court over the use of > photocopies. I did not know that. Oh, well... there's always a chance for a reversal at some point in the future if the right case comes along. It's rare but it's been known to happen. > it would be rare that an entire set of > music would become unusable at the same time absent a major > catastrophe such as a fire or flood, which would just as > likely destroy any backup copies as well. I believe I remember reading about the music library of the Houston Symphony being flooded out after a tropical storm inundated downtown several years ago and they lost quite a few complete sets (including some original manuscripts) but their loss was mitigated by back-up copies of much of their music that they had stored elsewhere (not even in the same city). I don't know if they had permission to make those copies or whether they just did it anyway (figuring it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission) but that would be an ideal example of why back-up copies are practical, necessary and don't harm the interests of the rights owners one bit. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands
Blake Richardson wrote: From: John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:17:55 -0400 To: Subject: Re: [Finale] Digital music stands And I'd really like to know where, in what version of "Fair Use," you find permission for "the user to make a back-up copy." Yes, that's been established long ago as it applies to commercial recordings, if I remember correctly, but that does NOT automatically mean that it applies to sheet music (which is defined as 'material intended to be used up') and it CERTAINLY does not apply to computer programs, unless I've completely misread all those legal agreements that we all have to agree to! It actually does apply to software and recordings alike. It's not in the statute itself, but rather in the myriad court decisions that form the bulk of Fair Use law. Courts have consistently held that requiring a person to re-buy something as expensive as a software package because their computer's drive crashed is not reasonable and doesn't further the intent of the Copyright Clause of the Constitution (which is to promote innovation and the advance of the arts) and therefore one back-up/archival copy is allowed under Fair Use. Yes, those End-User Licensing Agreements (EULAs) that come shrink-wrapped around your software (or to which you must click "agree" before installing) say otherwise but several courts have ruled in favor of the consumer on this issue despite the EULA. EULAs have also been found to be invalid when they try to circumvent the First Sale doctrine. Actually, many (most?) of the EULAs that I've actually read through have included text to the effect that I have a right to make a backup of the medium. Does this Fair Use principle apply to making "back-up" copies of sheet music? Who knows? A definitive answer can't be stated one way or the other until a court somewhere rules in a case involving sheet music (or something very similar). On the face of it, however, the principle would seem to be Courts have ruled on that -- the publishers have won when they have taken various entities to court over the use of photocopies. the same: that it's unreasonable to expect the customer to re-purchase something rather expensive that they've legitimately paid for once merely because it "wears out" or is "used up". To say otherwise goes against the fundamental purpose for which copyright was included in the U.S. Constitution in the first place. The publishers would refute your "rather expensive" statement (I agree with you, however) in that they claim (although it often takes months and months and hours on the phone and many letters back and forth to finally get the replacement parts) that you can buy parts for only a couple of dollars each, and it would be rare that an entire set of music would become unusable at the same time absent a major catastrophe such as a fire or flood, which would just as likely destroy any backup copies as well. And they shoot themselves in the foot by taking works permanently out of print, so they remove all possibility of purchasing replacement parts. I've not heard or read of anybody using that possibility in defense of their making backup copies of printed music. Barnhouse is one publisher which has been smart enough to not only keep at least one copy of every work they've ever published so they could make copies available for sale, but they have finally digitized it all so they can more efficiently do a print-on-demand to fill orders for older works they no longer wish to keep in inventory. I only wish all the other publishers had had such insight! -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands
From: John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:17:55 -0400 To: Subject: Re: [Finale] Digital music stands > And I'd really like to know where, in what version of "Fair Use," you > find permission for "the user to make a back-up copy." Yes, that's > been established long ago as it applies to commercial recordings, if > I remember correctly, but that does NOT automatically mean that it > applies to sheet music (which is defined as 'material intended to be > used up') and it CERTAINLY does not apply to computer programs, > unless I've completely misread all those legal agreements that we all > have to agree to! It actually does apply to software and recordings alike. It's not in the statute itself, but rather in the myriad court decisions that form the bulk of Fair Use law. Courts have consistently held that requiring a person to re-buy something as expensive as a software package because their computer's drive crashed is not reasonable and doesn't further the intent of the Copyright Clause of the Constitution (which is to promote innovation and the advance of the arts) and therefore one back-up/archival copy is allowed under Fair Use. Yes, those End-User Licensing Agreements (EULAs) that come shrink-wrapped around your software (or to which you must click "agree" before installing) say otherwise but several courts have ruled in favor of the consumer on this issue despite the EULA. EULAs have also been found to be invalid when they try to circumvent the First Sale doctrine. Does this Fair Use principle apply to making "back-up" copies of sheet music? Who knows? A definitive answer can't be stated one way or the other until a court somewhere rules in a case involving sheet music (or something very similar). On the face of it, however, the principle would seem to be the same: that it's unreasonable to expect the customer to re-purchase something rather expensive that they've legitimately paid for once merely because it "wears out" or is "used up". To say otherwise goes against the fundamental purpose for which copyright was included in the U.S. Constitution in the first place. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands
At 6:48 AM -0400 7/30/08, Blake Richardson wrote: Well, the reality is that in every band and orchestra I've ever played with, the librarian *does* photocopy all the parts before handing them out. They keep the originals in the library so if one of the musicians loses their music at some point, they aren't out the trumpet part, for example. And rarely, if ever, does the orchestra go to the trouble of obtaining and paying for the rights to copy the parts in that manner. Whether that's legal or not (the Fair Use doctrine-- which allows the user to make a back-up copy-- would seem to suggest that it is), the organizations do it anyway. Unfortunately you're absolutely right. And I've been known to drive a LITTLE, TEENY BIT over the speed limit, too. But if I get caught, I'm not going to try to argue my way out of it. My choice, my penalty! And publishers' representatives have been known to weasel their way into examining the libraries of churches or schools in order to identify copyright infringements. The problem of course is that the copying technology has gotten WAY ahead of the law and its restrictions. And when I (and others) comment on the legalities, it isn't in the expectation that very many people are going to change their habits, but in an effort to make sure everyone knows that they ARE breaking the law and that they are making a conscious decision to do so. And the secondary problem is publishers who don't respect the continuing value of what they have, who allow titles (including replacement parts) to go permanently out of print, and who are too stupid to USE the modern technology to keep their OWN archives and the ability to sell replacements from those archives. That is an open invitation to anyone who needs replacement parts to go ahead and photocopy them. Sure, it's a losing battle, but trying to get the facts out and about is still worthwhile. If you ever get to court, "everybody does it" won't get anyone off the hook! And I'd really like to know where, in what version of "Fair Use," you find permission for "the user to make a back-up copy." Yes, that's been established long ago as it applies to commercial recordings, if I remember correctly, but that does NOT automatically mean that it applies to sheet music (which is defined as 'material intended to be used up') and it CERTAINLY does not apply to computer programs, unless I've completely misread all those legal agreements that we all have to agree to! Thanks for the note. Nobody ever said it's clear or easy! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands
Blake Richardson wrote: [snip]> paying for the rights to copy the parts in that manner. Whether that's legal or not (the Fair Use doctrine-- which allows the user to make a back-up copy-- would seem to suggest that it is) While I agree that organizations do that all the time, there is nothing in the Fair Use doctrine which permits backup copies. What has happened is that software publishers have allowed backup copies specifically in their licenses, courts have upheld end-users' rights to make copies of legally purchased CDs, LPs, Cassettes, 8-tracks for listening on a different medium. But I don't ever recall hearing about a court decision which has upheld anybody's right to make backup copies of printed music, which has been viewed in copyright infringement cases as "disposable materials" which are supposed to wear out and be purchased anew when the current copies become unusable. There is nothing in the Fair Use section of the U.S. Copyright law which allows such copying nor is there anything in the Fair Use Guidelines of the MPA (Music Publishers Association) which permits that. I do realize the Fair Use Guidelines of the MPA are only those issues for which the member publishers won't prosecute and in no way represent any legal precedents nor any true reflection of the appropriate provisions of the U.S. Copyright Law (I urge everybody to download a copy and read it -- it's free from http://www.copyright.gov/title17/ and is a good thing to look over). -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands
John Howell wrote: [snip of good clarification of copyright issues] And are you aware that by far the majority of orchestral music is available only on rental? [snip] I just want to clarify this remark in an otherwise clear reply -- the majority of *newer* (read that as copyrighted) orchestral music is available only on rental -- the standard repertoire (which unfortunately still accounts for 80%-90% of modern orchestral programming) is still available for sale, as is the vast school orchestra library. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands
James Gilbert wrote: Shows you what I know about orchestras. I thought the players kept their music from rehearsal to rehearsal so they could practice. Since they don't, it makes no since to go digital until the way orchestras operate with regard to music changes. (That is, until the players keep their music and be responsible for it rehearsal to rehearsal. If they were, I could see many ways to utilize the musicpad, including having the librarian loan them CD's, memory sticks or other media with new music on it that they transfer to the pad). There are many different models of music dispersement in orchestras -- for per-service orchestra gigs in my area, the music is mailed to the musicians prior to the first rehearsal, and they keep the music for the duration, leaving it on the stands at the end of the final performance. In my community band, music stays in our folders for many months at a time (why waste all that rehearsal effort on a single performance?). -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands
James Gilbert wrote: [snip] The cost of the units are starting to come down in price, but they still are too high. If one can buy Finale at full cost or Adobe CS Photoshop at full cost, they can afford one of those units. I'm not sure the Kindle type of units (Amazon) would work too well with music. I think they were geared mainly toward text and simple graphics. The logic of one's ability to buy Finale or Photoshop proving one's ability to afford an e-stand escapes me -- If I have $600 discretionary money to spend, I can only spend one $600's worth. I can't buy 2 $600 items. So just because I may have been able to afford Finale doesn't mean I could *also* afford an e-stand. Even if I have bought Finale and Photoshop, that doesn't mean I have a third fairly large sum of money to spend on a third item. :-( Someone mentioned that orchestras would need to hook the units up to a network. Other than the simplicity of loading the music into the units prior to rehearsing, why would they need to be part of a network in rehearsal or performance? What's the advantage or reasoning? So the concert-master can change bowing and have it reflected immediately on all the violin parts, rather than the all-too-common game of "telephone" where the 2nd desks can see what the concertmaster has done and have to relay that back to the 3rd desks, etc. And any alterations to the form (ignoring repeats, taking them on the D.C., whatever) can be marked by the conductor and those can appear immediately in all parts. Or the conductor can make some indication to a single player, such as "Listen to the 3rd horn entrance" and be sure it's actually written on the part (I can't tell you how many times in my community band I'll explain some major point I want in the music only to see everybody sitting there nodding agreement and only 3 out of 50 actually writing it down!) so the point won't have to be made over and over again. The distribution of the music -- get a new piece distributed to all the stands at once. I can think of lots of reasons -- copyright issues for one. If the individual e-stands are "dumb" terminals with internal storage only and no way for the individual musician to take it home and download the PDFs of the parts to hang onto after the copyrighted rental work has been 'returned' to the publisher (i.e. erased from the local network), then works under copyright will become available. Currently, publishers of copyrighted works are most likely very hesitant to release their works in any format which would work for e-stands because of the lack of control of the copies. It's much harder to guarantee compliance when each individual musician can make a digital copy. I know that's still possible with paper-based distribution, but the electronic distribution model makes it much easier. I've dropped my music pad about 4 feet, onto its side once, no problems. However, if the glass display were to break, it would do the unit in. But, spilling coffee on or having the A/C return suck printed music to who knows where would end up with the same effective result as far as the performer goes - nothing to perform from. There is no fool-proof system of music dispersal which can protect against all catastrophes. I see this as no extra deterrent against e-stands, and when the price drops a bit more, I'm likely to buy one. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the cost issues could be resolved this technology holds a lot of promise. Many orchestras have corporate sponsors and I can see a tie-in developing where the company that develops the technology is also a sponsor of the orchestra. The "ePaper" technology that is used for devices like the Amazon Kindle might be the perfect display technology to use for this. Or perhaps OLED. The technology on the Kindle and the Sony Reader (same screen exactly) is excellent for reading music on, but I'm not sure how good it would be at the distance of a music stand. Hand-held it's excellent. The other problem is that they haven't produced any screens larger than the approx. 5"x8" size used for the Kindle, the Sony Reader and one or two other ebook readers. The other problem is that the e-ink screens are not back-lit so external lighting is required, maintaining the need for stand-lights or stage lighting. However, it is this lack of back-lighting which makes reading them so nice (I have the Sony Reader) and I can read my PRS500 as long as I can read a book for with no additional eye-strain. Reading back-lit screens creates eye-strain much more quickly. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands (now totally TAN)
Randolph Peters wrote: Robert Patterson wrote: Speaking of digital music stands. Losing power is a non-issue. I've been in concerts and rehearsals when the power went out, and believe me the show did *not* go on. And this was with good old-fashioned Manhassetts. (Remember that thing we need called light?) [snip] This is not to speak to your main point, but one of my best concert experiences was in Calcutta (now Kolkata) where the power goes out quite often. The trio playing classical music on stage simply lit some candles and got audience members to hold the light to give the best exposure to their music stands. The immediate intimacy for all, not to mention the thrill for a few audience members who had never been so close to great music making, makes me think we should "stage" these power outages more often! That's a terrific story, but unfortunately I have never carried candles in my accessories bag when on the way to a gig. perhaps I'll start! :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands
From: John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:47:53 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [Finale] Digital music stands > And something no one has even mentioned is this: How is the music of > many different publishers, in different countries all over the world, > and covered by many different copyright laws which FORBID copying in > any form, using any technology, supposed to get into these digital > stands or CDs or memory sticks in the first place? Until THAT > question is satisfactorily answered (and the whole allied matter of > rental agreements, Grand Rights, and all the other complications that > experienced Orchestral Librarians deal with on a daily basis), it > doesn't really matter HOW good the technology may be, or may become. Well, the reality is that in every band and orchestra I've ever played with, the librarian *does* photocopy all the parts before handing them out. They keep the originals in the library so if one of the musicians loses their music at some point, they aren't out the trumpet part, for example. And rarely, if ever, does the orchestra go to the trouble of obtaining and paying for the rights to copy the parts in that manner. Whether that's legal or not (the Fair Use doctrine-- which allows the user to make a back-up copy-- would seem to suggest that it is), the organizations do it anyway. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands
On 29.07.2008 James Gilbert wrote: Someone mentioned that orchestras would need to hook the units up to a network. Other than the simplicity of loading the music into the units prior to rehearsing, why would they need to be part of a network in rehearsal or performance? What's the advantage or reasoning? The whole point if it, and the reason why the Bamberger Symphonic are already using this technology, is that when the concertmaster or section leader in the strings marks something in his part, ie a bowing, it automatically transfers to all the other parts. That needs a network. On this other hand I don't think the network is much of a problem. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Digital music stands
At 8:02 PM -0400 7/29/08, James Gilbert wrote: This is getting way off topic for the list. My last comments. As to the source of digital music. There is a publisher that has over 80,000 titles available in the freehand music, music pad format. I also sell many of my own arrangements in that format (and all of my music is in PDF format which can be loaded into the pad), so the source of music is not an issue. Hi James, and I wish I could allow the discussion to lapse, as you wish, but there are a few things here that need to be pointed out. First, 80,000 titles is really not very many, but I'd be interested in knowing how many of those are full orchestra, string orchestra, or concert band standard repertoire in copyrighted editions with full scores and all performance parts? (Or in the public domain, for that matter!) How many are operas? How many ballets? How many Broadway shows. (That one I can answer: ZERO! They're not going to give an inch on their total control under Grand Rights!) I believe you mentioned that you are an organist--lots of repertoire, of course, but still a rather narrow segment of all music. For those that have music already, one is permitted to make 'archival' copies, at least in the USA and supposedly their lawyers have gotten this spelled out that it is legal to scan in your music and load it into their musicpad, so long as the original stays home filed away. I'm not sure where you got this information, but it certainly wasn't in either the copyright law itself or the Fair Use Guidelines agreed to by the Music Publishers Association. In fact I think the MPA would be rather surprised at your allegation (although I'm sure their lawyers would not be!), since those same Fair Use Guidelines specifically forbid archiving and specifically forbid performing from copies of legally-purchased music, no matter what technology is used for copying. If I am wrong, please do set me straight with chapter and verse. There are also fair use and academic uses allowed for in the USA. None of which permit performance from copies, archived or not. And I'm only emphasizing this because such misinformation can get other people in trouble and needs to be countered. So, the legal question is pretty much settled as to purchasing digital music. In your mind, perhaps, but not (yet!) in any court of law. But again, if you have proof that I'm wrong I'd be happy to learn something new. As to rental music, I've not heard anything about that. And are you aware that by far the majority of orchestral music is available only on rental? We could all go back to only writing music on paper, only sending letters via the postal service, only talking on our land line phones and we'd probably all save lots of money and maybe even time, but would we want to? Music on paper will never be totally obsolete, although I do agree that it will become a smaller and smaller percentage of the music we read with each generation. (And that exactly as has happened with regular penmanship, the quality that hand copy will degenerate pretty rapidly. I only learned to make good, readable hand copy in self-defence!) And of course it's generational. Most of my own kids no longer have land-line phones, but when widespread power outages hit (and they DO!!!) those old-fashioned, obsolescent land lines are still the only ones that continue to work past the end of your cell's battery capacity! Every time Finale freezes or my computer doesn't do what I want to, I think about doing just that, but realize that wouldn't be too smart. I'm afraid those that are so negative about digital music sound like those that advocate not using any technology in music. Not at all, but it doesn't hurt to be selective. And it CERTAINLY doesn't hurt to analyze and anticipate the possible problems along with the possible advantages. Some software companies don't seem to be very good at that. In the meantime I will continue to write for live musicians and not for MIDI tracks. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands
No, it is not a bad idea, and it's day will probably come. Already there are a few traveling shows out there that use the technology, but in traveling shows, nobody practices the music at the hotel, they go there to get away from the show they play 8 times a week. Allowances have to be made if it moves into the world where people do practice off-site - and carrying the whole mess home may not be it, at least not as fragile and bulky as they are now. I have a beautiful flat screen monitor and a high-def TV at home - why I can't I use one of them? We are NOT at the best of technology right now. I just played an outdoor concert in the wind a few days ago, and battling the damn clothespins on every two-bar rest page turn does NOT make it seem like we are really in the twenty first century. As for "many musicians being many years behind the rest of the public when it comes to some technology" who do you think _invented_ MIDI and the rest of this stuff? The musicians I play with are a varied bunch - some are behind the tech curve, some way ahead. Give them a better mouse trap and they will bite. Raymond Horton Louisville Orchestra James Gilbert wrote: This is getting way off topic for the list. My last comments. I should of said that I was being a bit sarcastic in my previous comments about orchestras and music stands. The technology and, I think in the world of music, many musicians are many years behind the rest of the public when it comes to some technology (at least the people I run across). When I think orchestras, I'm thinking New York, Berlin, etc. not the small town volunteer or paid just enough to get them to play type of orchestras. When the technology gets there and probably more important, when the musicians don't resist the technology and come up with a million reasons not to try it, then digital music display units -- the more portable the better -- will be standard just like mobile phones, computers and iPods seem to be today. When that day comes... I assume the orchestra provides stands, hence they would provide the musicpads (and I don't know of any that cost $1200, at least not a personal version). Do they actually make a digital stand that has the computer part of it embedded into it? I'm only aware of the 14x10" (and a double that size for conductors) version that is very portable. That would be no problem to carry. Assuming there are no paper copies to worry about, I think, from my own experience, it would literally SAVE hours for the librarian, not makes more work. Yes, making CD's and memory sticks would probably be a bit too much, but uploading the music to a secure web site or emailing the music to the musician -- none of which takes much effort (I do mass mailings on the side for a non-profit organization). When I have to find from among the 1,200 titles I have of organ music, something appropriate for the upcoming week's church service, I spend about 15 minutes putting together the playlist for that Sunday where it use to take me an hour or more going through printed music. As to the source of digital music. There is a publisher that has over 80,000 titles available in the freehand music, music pad format. I also sell many of my own arrangements in that format (and all of my music is in PDF format which can be loaded into the pad), so the source of music is not an issue. For those that have music already, one is permitted to make 'archival' copies, at least in the USA and supposedly their lawyers have gotten this spelled out that it is legal to scan in your music and load it into their musicpad, so long as the original stays home filed away. There are also fair use and academic uses allowed for in the USA. So, the legal question is pretty much settled as to purchasing digital music. As to rental music, I've not heard anything about that. We could all go back to only writing music on paper, only sending letters via the postal service, only talking on our land line phones and we'd probably all save lots of money and maybe even time, but would we want to? Every time Finale freezes or my computer doesn't do what I want to, I think about doing just that, but realize that wouldn't be too smart. I'm afraid those that are so negative about digital music sound like those that advocate not using any technology in music. James Gilbert http://www.jamesgilbertmusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Digital music stands
This is getting way off topic for the list. My last comments. I should of said that I was being a bit sarcastic in my previous comments about orchestras and music stands. The technology and, I think in the world of music, many musicians are many years behind the rest of the public when it comes to some technology (at least the people I run across). When I think orchestras, I'm thinking New York, Berlin, etc. not the small town volunteer or paid just enough to get them to play type of orchestras. When the technology gets there and probably more important, when the musicians don't resist the technology and come up with a million reasons not to try it, then digital music display units -- the more portable the better -- will be standard just like mobile phones, computers and iPods seem to be today. When that day comes... I assume the orchestra provides stands, hence they would provide the musicpads (and I don't know of any that cost $1200, at least not a personal version). Do they actually make a digital stand that has the computer part of it embedded into it? I'm only aware of the 14x10" (and a double that size for conductors) version that is very portable. That would be no problem to carry. Assuming there are no paper copies to worry about, I think, from my own experience, it would literally SAVE hours for the librarian, not makes more work. Yes, making CD's and memory sticks would probably be a bit too much, but uploading the music to a secure web site or emailing the music to the musician -- none of which takes much effort (I do mass mailings on the side for a non-profit organization). When I have to find from among the 1,200 titles I have of organ music, something appropriate for the upcoming week's church service, I spend about 15 minutes putting together the playlist for that Sunday where it use to take me an hour or more going through printed music. As to the source of digital music. There is a publisher that has over 80,000 titles available in the freehand music, music pad format. I also sell many of my own arrangements in that format (and all of my music is in PDF format which can be loaded into the pad), so the source of music is not an issue. For those that have music already, one is permitted to make 'archival' copies, at least in the USA and supposedly their lawyers have gotten this spelled out that it is legal to scan in your music and load it into their musicpad, so long as the original stays home filed away. There are also fair use and academic uses allowed for in the USA. So, the legal question is pretty much settled as to purchasing digital music. As to rental music, I've not heard anything about that. We could all go back to only writing music on paper, only sending letters via the postal service, only talking on our land line phones and we'd probably all save lots of money and maybe even time, but would we want to? Every time Finale freezes or my computer doesn't do what I want to, I think about doing just that, but realize that wouldn't be too smart. I'm afraid those that are so negative about digital music sound like those that advocate not using any technology in music. James Gilbert http://www.jamesgilbertmusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands
James Gilbert wrote: Shows you what I know about orchestras. I thought the players kept their music from rehearsal to rehearsal so they could practice. Since they don't, Many do, many don't. Depends on the gig and the player. I would assume any digital library system would allow access at home for practice, possibly with an online password or storage media. The Video Games Live concert that many orchestras are playing this season allows orchestra members to log on to a site ahead of time with a password to see and/or print practice parts. The rehearsals and performances are all with paper parts, though. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra it makes no since to go digital until the way orchestras operate with regard to music changes. (That is, until the players keep their music and be responsible for it rehearsal to rehearsal. If they were, I could see many ways to utilize the musicpad, including having the librarian loan them CD's, memory sticks or other media with new music on it that they transfer to the pad). James Gilbert Robert Patterson wrote: Isn't that enough? Right now a librarian drops a folder on every stand before rehearsal and picks it up after. Any solution that is slower than that isn't going to fly. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands
I assumed that this future digital technology would NOT be propitiatory, so the musician could view it at home on his/her home computer. Forget each orchestra member buying a digital music stand for home to practice orchestra parts - that just ain't happenin.' RBH John Howell wrote: At 3:49 PM -0400 7/29/08, James Gilbert wrote: Shows you what I know about orchestras. I thought the players kept their music from rehearsal to rehearsal so they could practice. Most do. Some may not. But if they do, that only expands the present technological problems. How would the players "take their music home" if it could only be read on digital stands with proprietary technology? Most musicians can manage to afford a $20 folding stand. Some can spring for a fancier $30-60 stand. But how many can afford a $1200 digital stand, or a computer for that matter, if they don't already have one? Since they don't, it makes no since to go digital until the way orchestras operate with regard to music changes. Which could happen, of course, and perhaps would HAVE to happen. Most orchestras send out music ahead of time, though, and expect the players to show up for the first rehearsal ready to play it. Again, how could they do that if no music was on paper, and players didn't have personal "playback" stands? (That is, until the players keep their music and be responsible for it rehearsal to rehearsal. If they were, I could see many ways to utilize the musicpad, including having the librarian loan them CD's, memory sticks or other media with new music on it that they transfer to the pad). All of which is hours more work for the poor librarian. LITERALLY hours! Each individual player would have to have an individual CD or memory stick made for them, AND each individual player would have to have playback technology. WHO PAYS?!!! In some orchestras the players can barely afford their concert dress, let alone several thousand dollars worth of electronic equipment. Just because everyone on a list like this one is computer literate (some of us barely so!) AND owns the equipment to use the Internet doesn't mean that everyone does. The implications and secondary requirements simply seem to multiply, the more one thinks about them. As I said before, it is far from being a mature technology, although it obviously has potential. I believe that those ensembles presently demonstrating its use may not only have equipment on extended professional loan, but tend to be those ensembles that do NOT send out music in advance, that expect virtually perfect sightreading, and that do NOT take the music home, EVER!!! In other words, orchestras playing shows with the minimum required union rehearsal time. And something no one has even mentioned is this: How is the music of many different publishers, in different countries all over the world, and covered by many different copyright laws which FORBID copying in any form, using any technology, supposed to get into these digital stands or CDs or memory sticks in the first place? Until THAT question is satisfactorily answered (and the whole allied matter of rental agreements, Grand Rights, and all the other complications that experienced Orchestral Librarians deal with on a daily basis), it doesn't really matter HOW good the technology may be, or may become. I'm trying not to be overly negative, but I AM conservative. Change happens, but it takes time and, almost always, it costs money. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Digital music stands
At 3:49 PM -0400 7/29/08, James Gilbert wrote: Shows you what I know about orchestras. I thought the players kept their music from rehearsal to rehearsal so they could practice. Most do. Some may not. But if they do, that only expands the present technological problems. How would the players "take their music home" if it could only be read on digital stands with proprietary technology? Most musicians can manage to afford a $20 folding stand. Some can spring for a fancier $30-60 stand. But how many can afford a $1200 digital stand, or a computer for that matter, if they don't already have one? Since they don't, it makes no since to go digital until the way orchestras operate with regard to music changes. Which could happen, of course, and perhaps would HAVE to happen. Most orchestras send out music ahead of time, though, and expect the players to show up for the first rehearsal ready to play it. Again, how could they do that if no music was on paper, and players didn't have personal "playback" stands? (That is, until the players keep their music and be responsible for it rehearsal to rehearsal. If they were, I could see many ways to utilize the musicpad, including having the librarian loan them CD's, memory sticks or other media with new music on it that they transfer to the pad). All of which is hours more work for the poor librarian. LITERALLY hours! Each individual player would have to have an individual CD or memory stick made for them, AND each individual player would have to have playback technology. WHO PAYS?!!! In some orchestras the players can barely afford their concert dress, let alone several thousand dollars worth of electronic equipment. Just because everyone on a list like this one is computer literate (some of us barely so!) AND owns the equipment to use the Internet doesn't mean that everyone does. The implications and secondary requirements simply seem to multiply, the more one thinks about them. As I said before, it is far from being a mature technology, although it obviously has potential. I believe that those ensembles presently demonstrating its use may not only have equipment on extended professional loan, but tend to be those ensembles that do NOT send out music in advance, that expect virtually perfect sightreading, and that do NOT take the music home, EVER!!! In other words, orchestras playing shows with the minimum required union rehearsal time. And something no one has even mentioned is this: How is the music of many different publishers, in different countries all over the world, and covered by many different copyright laws which FORBID copying in any form, using any technology, supposed to get into these digital stands or CDs or memory sticks in the first place? Until THAT question is satisfactorily answered (and the whole allied matter of rental agreements, Grand Rights, and all the other complications that experienced Orchestral Librarians deal with on a daily basis), it doesn't really matter HOW good the technology may be, or may become. I'm trying not to be overly negative, but I AM conservative. Change happens, but it takes time and, almost always, it costs money. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Digital music stands
Shows you what I know about orchestras. I thought the players kept their music from rehearsal to rehearsal so they could practice. Since they don't, it makes no since to go digital until the way orchestras operate with regard to music changes. (That is, until the players keep their music and be responsible for it rehearsal to rehearsal. If they were, I could see many ways to utilize the musicpad, including having the librarian loan them CD's, memory sticks or other media with new music on it that they transfer to the pad). James Gilbert Robert Patterson wrote: > Isn't that enough? Right now a librarian drops a folder on every stand > before rehearsal and picks it up after. Any solution that is slower > than that isn't going to fly. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 1:59 PM, James Gilbert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Other than the simplicity of loading the music into the units prior > to rehearsing, why would they need to be part of a network in rehearsal or > performance? Isn't that enough? Right now a librarian drops a folder on every stand before rehearsal and picks it up after. Any solution that is slower than that isn't going to fly. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Digital music stands
I've been using a MusicPad display unit for nearly 6 years and prefer it to printed music, especially when I have the foot pedal hooked up and can use it to turn pages. (I'm a pianist & organist). In fact, I do not buy printed music anymore unless I can't find it in musicpad format. The battery life is good, but I'd be worried after 3 hours that it might shut off. I always plug it into an A/C outlet if I have that choice. In a low-light situation, it is great because I don't need a stand light. I can also store a huge amount of music on a memory stick. There is a function that allows me to browse and search within the collection. When I played in the lobby of the local VA hospital a few years ago, it was real easy to find requests that people would ask for by using the collection feature. The cost of the units are starting to come down in price, but they still are too high. If one can buy Finale at full cost or Adobe CS Photoshop at full cost, they can afford one of those units. I'm not sure the Kindle type of units (Amazon) would work too well with music. I think they were geared mainly toward text and simple graphics. Someone mentioned that orchestras would need to hook the units up to a network. Other than the simplicity of loading the music into the units prior to rehearsing, why would they need to be part of a network in rehearsal or performance? What's the advantage or reasoning? I've dropped my music pad about 4 feet, onto its side once, no problems. However, if the glass display were to break, it would do the unit in. But, spilling coffee on or having the A/C return suck printed music to who knows where would end up with the same effective result as far as the performer goes - nothing to perform from. James Gilbert ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands (now totally TAN)
Robert Patterson wrote: Speaking of digital music stands. Losing power is a non-issue. I've been in concerts and rehearsals when the power went out, and believe me the show did *not* go on. And this was with good old-fashioned Manhassetts. (Remember that thing we need called light?) [snip] This is not to speak to your main point, but one of my best concert experiences was in Calcutta (now Kolkata) where the power goes out quite often. The trio playing classical music on stage simply lit some candles and got audience members to hold the light to give the best exposure to their music stands. The immediate intimacy for all, not to mention the thrill for a few audience members who had never been so close to great music making, makes me think we should "stage" these power outages more often! -Randolph Peters ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Digital music stands
If the cost issues could be resolved this technology holds a lot of promise. Many orchestras have corporate sponsors and I can see a tie-in developing where the company that develops the technology is also a sponsor of the orchestra. The "ePaper" technology that is used for devices like the Amazon Kindle might be the perfect display technology to use for this. Or perhaps OLED. On the subject of power outages - it occurs to me that the power needs of a network of digital stands is significantly lower than that of stage lighting. With OLED, or LED-backlit LCD, it's conceivable that you could have a UPS type backup power system for it in the event of a power outage during a performance. And then the show *would* go on. :-) On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 5:03 AM, Robert Patterson < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Speaking of digital music stands. > > Losing power is a non-issue. I've been in concerts and rehearsals when the > power went out, and believe me the show did *not* go on. And this was with > good old-fashioned Manhassetts. (Remember that thing we need called light?) > > The biggest impediment for at least professional orchestras to adopt > digital music stands is that you are making your concerts dependent upon a > computer network. Now these financially strapped institutions have to hire > full-time network engineers? > > Beyond that is the cost of losing, dropping, or theft of the device(s) > themselves. All three happen on a routine basis with Manhassets. Especially > the dropping. > > That said, I understand some smaller (and doubtless richer) bands are using > digital music stands quite effectively already. > > -- > Robert Patterson > > http://RobertGPatterson.com > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Digital music stands
Speaking of digital music stands. Losing power is a non-issue. I've been in concerts and rehearsals when the power went out, and believe me the show did *not* go on. And this was with good old-fashioned Manhassetts. (Remember that thing we need called light?) The biggest impediment for at least professional orchestras to adopt digital music stands is that you are making your concerts dependent upon a computer network. Now these financially strapped institutions have to hire full-time network engineers? Beyond that is the cost of losing, dropping, or theft of the device(s) themselves. All three happen on a routine basis with Manhassets. Especially the dropping. That said, I understand some smaller (and doubtless richer) bands are using digital music stands quite effectively already. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
