Re: [Finale] O.T. Whither the Harp? [was: O.T. Greek word in a Baroque Score]
Thank you, John and Mark. Your comments have been very useful. John Howell wrote: Hmm. One must be rather careful in assuming how words were actually used, and what they actually meant in different situations, because they can tie us up in knots. I am sensing that. The other thing I would question is your assumption that the harp was the stringed instrument that was meant. Not so much an assumption but a rather tight knot which I tied on myself when, for simplicity, I followed a lexicon in using the word harp as a generic translation of the names of the several Greek plucked string instruments. Mark D Lew wrote: It appears that the use of psalm in Greek translation was meant in the secondary sense of just a song, without regard to accompaniment. I can accept that but remain tantalised by the question: why did the translators prefer a name whose origins embody the notion of plucking a stringed instrument when other Greek words meaning song were available to them? However, it may well be as Mark says ... that the Greek translators noticed the stringed instruments mentioned elsewhere so felt it natural to attach their word psalm to the songs, even though the Hebrew label made no such implication. Interestingly, the article to which Mark refers in the online Jewish Encyclopedia indicates that, at a certain time, some psalms were sung by a chorus of Levites which included some singers who accompanied themselvers with stringed instruments, the kinor and nebel. Other material which I googled was not so supportive of an association between string strumming and psalm singing; so it remains an open question with me. Kenneth K ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Whither the Harp? [was: O.T. Greek word in a Baroque Score]
At 12:26 AM +1000 8/31/07, Kenneth Kuhlmann wrote: Thank you, John and Mark. Your comments have been very useful. Interestingly, the article to which Mark refers in the online Jewish Encyclopedia indicates that, at a certain time, some psalms were sung by a chorus of Levites which included some singers who accompanied themselvers with stringed instruments, the kinor and nebel. Now THAT I find extremely interesting. (My music history class is dealing this week with music in the early church.) Did it place those comments in a particular time frame, BCE or CE? Before or after the destruction of the Temple c. AD 70? Other material which I googled was not so supportive of an association between string strumming and psalm singing; so it remains an open question with me. Let's keep in mind that strumming might give an incorrect picture. While various types of harps might permit playing complete scales, others would not because, like the lyra and kithara, they had a limited number of strings, and no means of stopping those strings to get the in between notes. You can strum an autoharp, because its mechanism damps certain strings, but with a psaltery you have to have very good aim to play a chord! John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] O.T. Whither the Harp? [was: O.T. Greek word in a Baroque Score]
Kim Patrick Clow wrote: [re a greek word in a baroque score] What does the Greek symbol and word mean? Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Looks like psi, with the full word reading psalmos (psalm). Exactly so! But consideration of the meaning of 'psalmos' has long pricked my musicolgical curiosity. Perhaps some members of this list, more informed of liturgical practice than me, can satisfy it. I should explain that in its full sense 'psalmos' does not specifically denote a biblical text or the musical setting of the same; but more generally denotes a mode of musical performance; and when applied to text referred to a text which was to be sung; and sung most specifically with the accompaniment of a harp. My classical greek lexicon explains 'psalmos' in these terms 1.a pulling or twanging of musical strings with the fingers; 2.a strain or burst of music; later meaning, a song sung to a stringed instrument; a psalm. A closely related word is 'psalma' meaning explicitly a tune played on a stringed instrument. Another relative is 'psalter' meaning a harp player These words derive from a verb 'psallo' meaning, iner alia, to pull and let go again, to pull, twang with the fingers; to play a stringed instrument with the fingers instead of with the plectrum; later meaning, to sing to a harp. The liturgical tradition with which I am familiar does not include the use of the harp; but, faced with this lexical evidence, I think I am entitled to conclude that the depiction of angels playing harps is not merely a charming painter's whim but a clear reference to an ancient tradition of liturgical practice. Assuming the harp did have its place in liturgy, I am curious as to a) whether there are any extant religious traditions (Christian or otherwise) in which the use of the harp remains an essential part of liturgical practice; and b) in the cases where it is no longer used, when and why did its use cease. Kenneth K ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Whither the Harp? [was: O.T. Greek word in a Baroque Score]
At 4:36 PM +1000 8/28/07, Kenneth Kuhlmann wrote: Kim Patrick Clow wrote: [re a greek word in a baroque score] What does the Greek symbol and word mean? Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Looks like psi, with the full word reading psalmos (psalm). Exactly so! But consideration of the meaning of 'psalmos' has long pricked my musicolgical curiosity. Perhaps some members of this list, more informed of liturgical practice than me, can satisfy it. I should explain that in its full sense 'psalmos' does not specifically denote a biblical text or the musical setting of the same; but more generally denotes a mode of musical performance; and when applied to text referred to a text which was to be sung; and sung most specifically with the accompaniment of a harp. Hmm. One must be rather careful in assuming how words were actually used, and what they actually meant in different situations, because they can tie us up in knots. Do you happen to know when the Old Testament Book of Psalms was first concatenated, and whether the (presumably Hebrew) word for Psalms was attached as its title from the beginning? The other thing I would question is your assumption that the harp was the stringed instrument that was meant. The two stringed instruments best associated with Greek antiquity were the lyra and the kithara, not the harp. No question that harps of various kinds were known in antiquity, both arched harps (without forepillar) and angled harps (with forepillars, and therefore capable of supporting greater string tension). Most Egyptian drawings show the arched harp. But, There is little evidence of arched harps in Mesopotamia after the end of the 3rd millennium BC, but later instruments of this type were depicted in sculpture in India, and various places in Southeast Asia. And, Although Palestine was between two regions where the harp was widely used--Mesopotamia and Egypt--its music was different, and harps seem to have been unknown there until the 11th century BC (when Israel became a kingdom) or perhaps even until Hellenistic thimes, about a millennium later. Flavius Josephus (b. AD37 or 38) stated that the strings of the nebel (which was possibly a harp) were thicker and rougher than those of the kinnor (a lyre, which was probably the instrument played by King David, despite medieval iconography of him as a harpist). The medieval use of terminology is rather hopelessly confused, but medieval artists depicted instruments that they were familiar with, not instruments from antiquity which they had never seen, whether in angel bands or in other settings. (All quotations from New Grove I, Harp.) My classical greek lexicon explains 'psalmos' in these terms 1.a pulling or twanging of musical strings with the fingers; 2.a strain or burst of music; later meaning, a song sung to a stringed instrument; a psalm. A closely related word is 'psalma' meaning explicitly a tune played on a stringed instrument. Another relative is 'psalter' meaning a harp player These words derive from a verb 'psallo' meaning, iner alia, to pull and let go again, to pull, twang with the fingers; to play a stringed instrument with the fingers instead of with the plectrum; later meaning, to sing to a harp. I will not argue your definitions, since I cannot, except for the word harp, but bridging the gap between practice and terminology in classical Greece and liturgical practice in the early Christians church seems a bit of a stretch. They were two very different worlds, and in fact the early church fathers did what they could to stamp out all influences from pagan Greece and Rome. The liturgical tradition with which I am familiar does not include the use of the harp; but, faced with this lexical evidence, I think I am entitled to conclude that the depiction of angels playing harps is not merely a charming painter's whim but a clear reference to an ancient tradition of liturgical practice. No, I don't really think you are so entitled. Not a painter's whim, but the depiction of instruments they were familiar with, and at a time when the ancients were one's grandfathers' generation! What they knew of antiquity was basically nothing! Assuming the harp did have its place in liturgy, I am curious as to As I suggested, an unsupported assumption. a) whether there are any extant religious traditions (Christian or otherwise) in which the use of the harp remains an essential part of liturgical practice; and I'm no expert, but I don't know of any, at least in Christian use. b) in the cases where it is no longer used, when and why did its use cease. Not a valid question if there never was such a tradition. Now we DO know, from various writings, that harp was used to accompany secular song in the middle ages, and from various iconography that the harp with forepillar as we would recognize it was known in the middle ages.
Re: [Finale] O.T. Whither the Harp? [was: O.T. Greek word in a Baroque Score]
John Howell wrote: Hmm. One must be rather careful in assuming how words were actually used, and what they actually meant in different situations, because they can tie us up in knots. Do you happen to know when the Old Testament Book of Psalms was first concatenated, and whether the (presumably Hebrew) word for Psalms was attached as its title from the beginning? I haven't been keeping up with the List lately, so I've missed most of this discussion. My apologies if this has already been covered. Neither of the Hebrew words used for the psalms (mizmor and tehillim) suggest stringed instruments. Both were varieties of songs. It appears that the use of psalm in Greek translation was meant in the secondary sense of just a song, without regard to accompaniment. But as always with such things, exact meanings are subject to debate by historians. Brief discussion here: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=574letter=P. Better googling will probably turn up more. As for King David's instruments, the one translated harp is a kinnor in the original, and the one translated psaltery is a nevel. Both kinnor and nevel are reasonably well-known. Google turns up a page for a modern manufacturer, presumably an attempt at historical reconstruction. I would venture to guess that the Greek translators noticed the stringed instruments mentioned elsewhere so felt it natural to attach their word psalm to the songs, even though the Hebrew label made no such implication. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Whither the Harp? [was: O.T. Greek word in a Baroque Score]
Speaking of Biblical texts and such , I recently set some of Psalm 84 to music, and encountered the word Selah. As it happened, it assumed a rather prominent place in the setting, so upon looking it up in the dictionary, I came to understand its meaning as a command (this may be too strong a word) to sing. Ergo, I used it in that context. later, I read some other place that the meaning was something else. Any of you Psalm experts may weigh in please. Thanks, Dean On Aug 28, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Mark D Lew wrote: John Howell wrote: Hmm. One must be rather careful in assuming how words were actually used, and what they actually meant in different situations, because they can tie us up in knots. Do you happen to know when the Old Testament Book of Psalms was first concatenated, and whether the (presumably Hebrew) word for Psalms was attached as its title from the beginning? I haven't been keeping up with the List lately, so I've missed most of this discussion. My apologies if this has already been covered. Neither of the Hebrew words used for the psalms (mizmor and tehillim) suggest stringed instruments. Both were varieties of songs. It appears that the use of psalm in Greek translation was meant in the secondary sense of just a song, without regard to accompaniment. But as always with such things, exact meanings are subject to debate by historians. Brief discussion here: http:// www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=574letter=P. Better googling will probably turn up more. As for King David's instruments, the one translated harp is a kinnor in the original, and the one translated psaltery is a nevel. Both kinnor and nevel are reasonably well-known. Google turns up a page for a modern manufacturer, presumably an attempt at historical reconstruction. I would venture to guess that the Greek translators noticed the stringed instruments mentioned elsewhere so felt it natural to attach their word psalm to the songs, even though the Hebrew label made no such implication. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
