Re: [Finale] OT Mac or PC

[John Howell]

At 8:14 AM -0400 4/17/05, Lawrence David Eden wrote:
Unless she HAS to get a PC (and I can't think of a single reason why a
freshman would be that committed to one of the departments that requires
them) she ought to get a Mac.  Period."
At this university there are department-specific requirements.  Art 
and Music require Macs, and Music strongly recommends laptops so they 
can go to class.  The Colleges of Engineering and Business require 
PCs.  At one point the Computer Science department required Macs, but 
substituted a different operating system--possibly the OS (I can't 
remember its name) that is behind OS 10.  It may have to do with what 
saftware is required, but it also has to do with what the students 
will find themselves working with in the "real world."

John
--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] OT Mac or PC

[A-NO-NE Music]

David W. Fenton / 05.4.17 / 04:21 PM wrote:

>One thing I *will* differ with is Dennis's reference to "monitoring 
>your attachments folder." That clearly shows that he's using Eudora, 
>which is the only email client I know of that decodes attachments and 
>stores them in the file system upon arrival of email. I consider this 
>to be a *very* bad design flaw in Eudora, as anyone can accidentally 
>execute malicious payloads that are stored in the file system, which 
>could never happen with an email client that doesn't decode the 
>attachments until requested.

I actually view from an opposite side.  I don't like attachment is
encoded within mail database.  It leads database to be much easier to
corrupt, and backing up becomes difficult because of its size.

I don't use Eudora but I considered it because of this feature.  Too bad
Eudora Unicode implementation is plain terrible.  I use PowerMail.  I
still believe there is no way an attachment executes by itself at decode
on Mac side :-)

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
 


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Re: [Finale] OT Mac or PC

[David W. Fenton]

On 17 Apr 2005 at 10:25, dhbailey wrote:

> Lawrence David Eden wrote:
> > I wrote to the head of the computer sciences center at University of
> > Maryland to get his opinion as to what machine to buy.  Some of you
> > may be interested in his reply:
> > 
> > "Why on earth would you want to subject her to the horrors that
> > Windows-using students are subjected to here?  I spend almost all my
> > time trying to help them recover from Internet attacks, and more and
> > more of them are having to reformat their hard drives and reinstall
> > the operating system (which leaves them no less susceptible to
> > repeat performances unless they take the mass of security steps that
> > I almost never have time to go over with them in detail.
> > 
> > Unless she HAS to get a PC (and I can't think of a single reason why
> > a freshman would be that committed to one of the departments that
> > requires them) she ought to get a Mac.  Period."
> > 
> > As a Mac user, (Macher) I don't have to deal with the virus issue. 
> > How do PC mavens protect themselves from the deluge of attacks on
> > their OS?
> 
> Install an antivirus program and that's that.

Yes, but I'll admit that I find the way the commercial AV providers 
handles subscriptions to be less than ideal. Symantec, for instance, 
makes no provision for renewing your AV subscription unless you're 
running as an administrator (this is a design choice on their part 
that makes no sense whatsoever). But they also provide no clear way 
to run the renewal process except by occasionally prompting you when 
you log on. If you properly run your computer on a daily basis as a 
user-level logon, then you'll see the notification but never be able 
to actually complete the process. 

It's more than 5 years since Win2K was introduced and Symantec still 
hasn't adjusted.

I would definitely look at AVG, the free AV software, since you don't 
have to pay subscriptions, and, so far as I can tell, it's just as 
effective as Symantec or Mcafee or Trend Micro.

> As well as follow some sound computing practices, such as never
> opening attachments you haven't solicited, even when they appear to
> come from friends or relatives.

Well, also things like:

1. never use a Microsoft EMail client (no Outlook, no Outlook 
Express). Thunderbird, Eudora and Pegasus Mail are all very fine free 
alternatives.

2. never use Internet Explorer as a web browser. Firefox or Mozilla 
are far superior web browsers and lack the integration into the OS 
that makes IE dangerous to use. And they aren't vulnerable to all the 
spyware that are so easy to accidentally install into IE (only IE 
supports ActiveX controls, which is how most of these exploits work).

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] OT Mac or PC

[David W. Fenton]

On 17 Apr 2005 at 9:20, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:

> Macs have a psychological advantage in that there's little interest in
> writing malware for them -- you don't get cred for if you don't have
> widespread impact. With Windows on most of the world's desktops, all
> hell can break loose, with instant glory for script kiddies and lots
> of money to be made for the unscrupulous data hacker.

Well, while I agree with your basic point, I have to say that the 
advantage Mac users enjoy now that OS X is the default OS is more 
than just psychological. OS X is configured with defaults that make 
it safer out of the box than Windows.

Windows could be just as impervious to a number of exploits as OS X 
if Microsoft only shipped it that way. But MS chose not to do so, and 
shows no signs of changing their stupid ways.

The good news is that it's very easy to keep safe on Windows, as 
Dennis outlined. It sounds like a lot, but it's really not, as it's 
the kind of thing you set up and then completely forget about.

One thing I *will* differ with is Dennis's reference to "monitoring 
your attachments folder." That clearly shows that he's using Eudora, 
which is the only email client I know of that decodes attachments and 
stores them in the file system upon arrival of email. I consider this 
to be a *very* bad design flaw in Eudora, as anyone can accidentally 
execute malicious payloads that are stored in the file system, which 
could never happen with an email client that doesn't decode the 
attachments until requested.

An example:

I get 200 or so spam messages a day, of which 20 or more have 
malicious executable payloads (some days it's more, some days, less). 
My email client (Pegasus Mail), simply files them in my SPAM folder, 
where I review them to catch any false positives and then file them 
for scanning by SpamAssassin (to further train my spam filter, 
something I do only once ever couple of weeks). The attachments never 
get executed because I never open any of these email messages. And 
even if I *did* open them, I'd have to explicitly request that the 
attachments be executed -- they won't be decoded until that point.

With Eudora, all 20 of those payloads will be decoded into executable 
form and dropped in the designated attachments folder, where the 
unknowing user may accidentally execute them. I've had clients do it, 
so I know exactly what can happen. With one client, I've forbidden 
her from even looking at the attachments folder and I periodically 
prune it for her.

The fact that it's saved in the file system means that you've got to 
make a second copy if you want to store a legitimate attachment 
somewhere else on your system. Or, you have to use Windows Explorer 
to move it. That involves dragging and dropping, or clicking on the 
executable at least once, and sometimes non-swift mouse users 
doubleclick.

I think it's an extremely poor design and it's one of the main 
reasons I've directed my clients away from Eudora in the last few 
years. If there were some advantage to it, I might think differently, 
but I can see no benefit at all from having all attachments decoded 
automatically and saved in the file system, whether you need them or 
not.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] OT Mac or PC

[David W. Fenton]

On 17 Apr 2005 at 8:14, Lawrence David Eden wrote:

> I wrote to the head of the computer sciences center at University of
> Maryland to get his opinion as to what machine to buy.  Some of you
> may be interested in his reply:
> 
> "Why on earth would you want to subject her to the horrors that
> Windows-using students are subjected to here?  I spend almost all my
> time trying to help them recover from Internet attacks, and more and
> more of them are having to reformat their hard drives and reinstall
> the operating system (which leaves them no less susceptible to repeat
> performances unless they take the mass of security steps that I almost
> never have time to go over with them in detail.
> 
> Unless she HAS to get a PC (and I can't think of a single reason why a
> freshman would be that committed to one of the departments that
> requires them) she ought to get a Mac.  Period."
> 
> As a Mac user, (Macher) I don't have to deal with the virus issue. 
> How do PC mavens protect themselves from the deluge of attacks on
> their OS?

The person you wrote to obviously has *no* experience in configuring 
and administering Windows PCs, so his advice is highly suspect, in my 
opinion.

His reaction is definitely a wild over-reaction, as you seem to 
suspect from what you've asked.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] OT Mac or PC

[Darcy James Argue]

On 17 Apr 2005, at 10:03 AM, Linda Worsley wrote:
Ask the bookstore if a student can still get a deal on a Mac laptop 
(or any other kind).
Regardless of the campus bookstore's policy, the Apple Store online 
allows students to obtain their educational discount online:

http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/routingpage.html
The educational discount applies to all Apple products -- not just 
computers, but iPods, accessories, etc.

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY
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Re: [Finale] OT Mac or PC

[Simon Troup]

> Please, people, I beg you. Take this offlist. It is dullest most 
> pointless religious argument every single time it comes up, and it has 
> absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this list.

Seconded, it's first class flame bait, we've all made our minds up already.
--
Simon Troup
Digital Music Art

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Re: [Finale] OT Mac or PC

[Steve Gibons]

agreed here. the repetitiveness of these arguments is stultifying.
On Apr 17, 2005, at 9:57 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
Please, people, I beg you. Take this offlist. It is dullest most 
pointless religious argument every single time it comes up, and it has 
absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this list.

dhbailey wrote:
Lawrence David Eden wrote:
I wrote to the head of the computer sciences center at University of
Maryland to get his opinion as to what machine to buy.  Some of you 
may be
interested in his reply:

"Why on earth would you want to subject her to the horrors that
Windows-using students are subjected to here?  I spend almost all my
time trying to help them recover from Internet attacks, and more and
more of them are having to reformat their hard drives and reinstall 
the
operating system (which leaves them no less susceptible to repeat
performances unless they take the mass of security steps that I 
almost
never have time to go over with them in detail.

Unless she HAS to get a PC (and I can't think of a single reason why 
a
freshman would be that committed to one of the departments that 
requires
them) she ought to get a Mac.  Period."

As a Mac user, (Macher) I don't have to deal with the virus issue.  
How do
PC mavens protect themselves from the deluge of attacks on their OS?

Larry
Install an antivirus program and that's that.
As well as follow some sound computing practices, such as never 
opening attachments you haven't solicited, even when they appear to 
come from friends or relatives.
If that person convinces enough people to buy Macs, then there'll be 
a big enough Mac user market that he'll have to be dealing with 
viruses over there, as well as on windows machines.
It's like anything -- use it wisely, invest in tools to protect 
yourself (they're not that expensive) and you're fine.
--
Robert Patterson
http://RobertGPatterson.com
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Re: [Finale] OT Mac or PC

[Robert Patterson]

Please, people, I beg you. Take this offlist. It is dullest most 
pointless religious argument every single time it comes up, and it has 
absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this list.

dhbailey wrote:
Lawrence David Eden wrote:
I wrote to the head of the computer sciences center at University of
Maryland to get his opinion as to what machine to buy.  Some of you 
may be
interested in his reply:

"Why on earth would you want to subject her to the horrors that
Windows-using students are subjected to here?  I spend almost all my
time trying to help them recover from Internet attacks, and more and
more of them are having to reformat their hard drives and reinstall the
operating system (which leaves them no less susceptible to repeat
performances unless they take the mass of security steps that I almost
never have time to go over with them in detail.
Unless she HAS to get a PC (and I can't think of a single reason why a
freshman would be that committed to one of the departments that requires
them) she ought to get a Mac.  Period."
As a Mac user, (Macher) I don't have to deal with the virus issue.  
How do
PC mavens protect themselves from the deluge of attacks on their OS?

Larry

Install an antivirus program and that's that.
As well as follow some sound computing practices, such as never opening 
attachments you haven't solicited, even when they appear to come from 
friends or relatives.

If that person convinces enough people to buy Macs, then there'll be a 
big enough Mac user market that he'll have to be dealing with viruses 
over there, as well as on windows machines.

It's like anything -- use it wisely, invest in tools to protect yourself 
(they're not that expensive) and you're fine.


--
Robert Patterson
http://RobertGPatterson.com
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Re: [Finale] OT Mac or PC

[dhbailey]

Lawrence David Eden wrote:
I wrote to the head of the computer sciences center at University of
Maryland to get his opinion as to what machine to buy.  Some of you may be
interested in his reply:
"Why on earth would you want to subject her to the horrors that
Windows-using students are subjected to here?  I spend almost all my
time trying to help them recover from Internet attacks, and more and
more of them are having to reformat their hard drives and reinstall the
operating system (which leaves them no less susceptible to repeat
performances unless they take the mass of security steps that I almost
never have time to go over with them in detail.
Unless she HAS to get a PC (and I can't think of a single reason why a
freshman would be that committed to one of the departments that requires
them) she ought to get a Mac.  Period."
As a Mac user, (Macher) I don't have to deal with the virus issue.  How do
PC mavens protect themselves from the deluge of attacks on their OS?
Larry
Install an antivirus program and that's that.
As well as follow some sound computing practices, such as never opening 
attachments you haven't solicited, even when they appear to come from 
friends or relatives.

If that person convinces enough people to buy Macs, then there'll be a 
big enough Mac user market that he'll have to be dealing with viruses 
over there, as well as on windows machines.

It's like anything -- use it wisely, invest in tools to protect yourself 
(they're not that expensive) and you're fine.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] OT Mac or PC

[Linda Worsley]

Lawrence David Eden wrote:
I wrote to the head of the computer sciences center at University of
Maryland to get his opinion as to what machine to buy.  Some of you may be
interested in his reply:
"Why on earth would you want to subject her to the horrors that
Windows-using students are subjected to here? . . .
Amen.  I've been going to jump on this thread and dispute the 
"rapacious college bookstore" view.  You'll probably get a better 
deal on everything from books to T shirts online somewhere, but 
unless times have changed, the college bookstore IS the place to get 
a computer.

I bought three of my kids at two different university bookstores, mac 
laptops at a WAY reduced student rate.  It's been an Apple thing, 
providing macs to schools and selling them to college students at a 
bargain rate. That way they develop customers who are mac people 
forever, and it certainly worked for my offspring, each of whom has 
owned several macs since, and wouldn't dream getting a PC, even 
though it's cheaper.  My only PC son started on a DEC10 when he was 
12, worked later for an OS2 enthusiast, survived that, and now 
develops and troubleshoots software for PC customers of a health care 
software company.  But even the PC son, who taught me how to use HIS 
pc in the 80s, steered me toward the mac.  When my electric 
typewriter went out in 1986, he said ""Don't ever buy another 
typewriter.  Get a Macintosh computer."  I did... a Mac 512KE.  That 
was at least ten or twelve Macs ago, and I can't imagine wrestling 
with Windows.  Never had a virus or a worm on any Mac and I LOVE 
System X!

But I digress.  Ask the bookstore if a student can still get a deal 
on a Mac laptop (or any other kind).

Worth checking out if they still do that.  Also. both bookstores I 
used had pretty savvy computer people who did troubleshooting and 
service.

Good luck,
Linda Worsley
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Re: [Finale] OT Mac or PC

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

At 08:14 AM 4/17/05 -0400, Lawrence David Eden wrote:
>As a Mac user, (Macher) I don't have to deal with the virus issue.  How do
>PC mavens protect themselves from the deluge of attacks on their OS?

I think that is overstated.

For me, aside from getting program and OS updates as they're issued (for
improvements and bug fixes, not just security), I just plain practice safe
computing: I run a firewall, scan my attachment directory, don't use
trojan-launching mail programs, run an ad/spybot check, do critical data
backups, scan drives for failures, organize files and folders, dump
temporary files, etc. It's routine maintenance I do while reading email or
washing dishes. Every night before bed I've got a clean machine.

We're in a period of personal computing when people behave as if they can
drive unaware of traffic or heedless of roadsigns. That's the hurt for
Windows users -- who, with tenfold the Mac user population, include a whole
lot of folks who are not good with computing *or* driving. For now at
least, Mac users don't have to watch the roadsigns, as there's not much
traffic to avoid.

Sure, I watch my firewall get hammered hundreds of times an hour, but feel
no effects. None of the five Windows computers in our house has ever had a
virus. Adware/spyware are rooted out before programs are installed (I use
lots of shareware and freeware).

But all the platforms can have issues. Unix/Linux folks cope with trojans
and other attacks. Users of a php-based bulletin board running got hacked a
few weeks ago. I run three of them on my maltedmedia server (FreeBSD Unix),
but installed the security update as soon as it was announced. Safe
computing on that platform, too.

Macs have a psychological advantage in that there's little interest in
writing malware for them -- you don't get cred for if you don't have
widespread impact. With Windows on most of the world's desktops, all hell
can break loose, with instant glory for script kiddies and lots of money to
be made for the unscrupulous data hacker.

I'd encourage Mac owners to begin practicing safe computing, though. You
never know who will take an interest as the Mac user base grows. Mac owners
are like the Martians in "War of the Worlds" -- seemingly invulnerable, but
unprepared for the smallest virus.

The good news is that much has been learned all around from the attacks on
Windows.

Now back to work,
Dennis


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[Finale] OT Mac or PC

[Lawrence David Eden]

I wrote to the head of the computer sciences center at University of
Maryland to get his opinion as to what machine to buy.  Some of you may be
interested in his reply:

"Why on earth would you want to subject her to the horrors that
Windows-using students are subjected to here?  I spend almost all my
time trying to help them recover from Internet attacks, and more and
more of them are having to reformat their hard drives and reinstall the
operating system (which leaves them no less susceptible to repeat
performances unless they take the mass of security steps that I almost
never have time to go over with them in detail.

Unless she HAS to get a PC (and I can't think of a single reason why a
freshman would be that committed to one of the departments that requires
them) she ought to get a Mac.  Period."


As a Mac user, (Macher) I don't have to deal with the virus issue.  How do
PC mavens protect themselves from the deluge of attacks on their OS?

Larry


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