Re: [Finale] harp pedal diagram
I think it's the composer's responsibility to WORK OUT the pedaling to ensure that all the enharmonics are spelled in a way that works for the harp. I don't think it's a crime to include a single diagram at the beginning, but would never indicate pedal changes, because precisely how those changes are marked and where they occur varies according to performer's preferences. On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Andrew Stiller kalli...@ix.netcom.comwrote: I disagree. IMO it is absolutely the composer's responsibility to indicate the pedalling in any harp part, whether by diagram or by the older method of writing in the pitch names. As for harpist's preferring to do it themselves, I can only cite the example of Lejaren Hiller, whose music I publish and who never bothered with pedalling diagrams. On one extracted harp part, the harpist pencilled in the note Jerry, harps have pedals! I add pedalling diagrams to the harp parts in all my editions of his work. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ On Sep 18, 2009, at 1:41 AM, toronado...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 1:56 PM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: There are at least 2 active harpists (and teachers) on the SibList, and their consensus is that harpists would much prefer to enter their own diagrams, in the forms they prefer, and put them where they want them. Unless you are an experienced harpist yourself, the better part of valor might be to avoid putting in your own. John I agree. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] harp pedal diagram
String players can very quickly detect deficiencies in string writing by awkward bowings (or even no bowings at all, which I have seen on occasion). I don't think you necessarily need to be a string player to write competent bowings (though of course it helps), but you do need more than a surface understanding of the physical mechanism involved. A key element that is sometimes overlooked or not well understood is that a successful bowing depends very much on where in the bow it begins, which in turn depends on where the previous passage leaves the bow. It is true that a pro can make most bowings work (though not without considerable cursing), but an awkward bowing can cause an entire string section of amateurs to crash and burn immediately. If you write or arrange for strings, you simply must include phrasing that makes sense to a string player, or you're starting out with 3 strikes against you. I should add that string players will almost always change the printed bowings, but it's still important to make the intention of your phrasing clear. Lee Actor Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic Assistant Conductor, Nova Vista Symphony http://www.leeactor.com I used to put pedal diagrams in harp parts until a harpist told me that regardless of what is in the part, every harpist will write in their own pedaling. I see it as similar to printing fingering in string parts (i.e., presumptuous), unless your name is Carlos Salzedo. Well put, Lee! I never put in string fingerings, knowing that my own fingerings would be too advanced for some (community) players, but too limited for full-time professionals. Unless, of course, it's for a special effect, like sul G. I do, however, ALWAYS mark bowings, as any composer or arranger should do, and knowing how should be part of the detailed knowledge that composer or arranger should have mastered. Phrasing is bowing, and vice versa. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] harp pedal diagram
John Howell wrote: At 10:43 AM -0700 9/18/09, Lee Actor wrote: I used to put pedal diagrams in harp parts until a harpist told me that regardless of what is in the part, every harpist will write in their own pedaling. I see it as similar to printing fingering in string parts (i.e., presumptuous), unless your name is Carlos Salzedo. Well put, Lee! I never put in string fingerings, knowing that my own fingerings would be too advanced for some (community) players, but too limited for full-time professionals. Unless, of course, it's for a special effect, like sul G. I do, however, ALWAYS mark bowings, as any composer or arranger should do, and knowing how should be part of the detailed knowledge that composer or arranger should have mastered. Phrasing is bowing, and vice versa. John It would be very interesting to learn (perhaps a college paper?) to what degree composers' bowings or phrase markings are altered when they're published in the music. I agree with John that a good background in bowings is vital to indicate your preferences and that all people who write for strings need to understand them, even if they don't mark them, simply so they can have a good idea what the people playing the music have to deal with when they play. Non-string players can be very silly in what they expect string players to be capable of doing, just as string players can be very silly in what they expect brass and woodwind players to be able to do. And I tell my woodwind and brass students to always be leery of music written for their instruments by organ players, who can sustain a note for the entire work if they so choose and sometimes think every other instrument can, too. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] harp pedal diagram
At 12:43 AM -0700 9/20/09, Lee Actor wrote: String players can very quickly detect deficiencies in string writing by awkward bowings (or even no bowings at all, which I have seen on occasion). Yeah; it takes about 20 seconds, tops! BUT, if your bowing survives that first 20 seconds, you gain credibility. I don't think you necessarily need to be a string player to write competent bowings (though of course it helps), but you do need more than a surface understanding of the physical mechanism involved. Yes, that was my point. And even though I'm a string player, I constantly learn from other string players. In fact just adore being able to watch the Vienna Phil when they do a TV special, because their bowings are so incredibly artistic. I understand why they use them AFTER I see (and hear) them, but it wouldn't have thought of doing it that way myself. A key element that is sometimes overlooked or not well understood is that a successful bowing depends very much on where in the bow it begins, which in turn depends on where the previous passage leaves the bow. Absolutely! Bowing is a continuous process in real time, just like a singer's breathing, except that a singer can sustain tone for a lot longer. And it's not just ups and downs, but very subtle degrees of bow spacing, speed, and weight that shape the phrases. You can't just put in *a* bowing; you have to look back to see how to get it to come out that way, and then look forward to see what kind of trouble you'll be in 4 bars later! If you write or arrange for strings, you simply must include phrasing that makes sense to a string player, or you're starting out with 3 strikes against you. Definitely. Even bad bowings are better than no bowings, because they indicate your ideas about phrasing even if they're unplayable. I should add that string players will almost always change the printed bowings, but it's still important to make the intention of your phrasing clear. Some players will, some won't, and will continue to follow poor bowings. And what feels good and effective to one player may feel awkward to another; that's why concertmasters and section leaders get the big bucks! (But remember that I'm heavily invested in volunteer community music and in teaching.) I'm very careful with mine, but *I* even end up changing them when they don't do what I hoped they would. But what it comes down to is that phrasing is a performer's art, no matter how much of the art a composer tries to take over. And the conductor, AS PERFORMER, must have the last word. My stand partner is of the take the bowing as it comes school. Our conductor, on the other hand, understands the musical subtleties that good bowings can produce, after a career as a teacher, conductor, and professional orchestral player, and bows our parts very carefully. Thanks, Lee. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] harp pedal diagram
At 7:18 AM -0400 9/20/09, dhbailey wrote: It would be very interesting to learn (perhaps a college paper?) to what degree composers' bowings or phrase markings are altered when they're published in the music. Wow! That would be a bear of a study to set up. First, it would have to be limited, but to what? A single professional orchestra? That gets you into personal issues with conductors and concertmasters, plus the hassle of working with an orchestra librarian to get copies of the music before the rental sets are shipped back. Then multiply that by the number of orchestras to be covered, whether professional, college, or community. (And just THAT comparison would be an eye-opener, I'd bet.) One class of music that will ALWAYS be altered from what's printed is Broadway orchestra books, but you'll NEVER get your hands on them, and they're supposed to have all markings erased before they go back. Even when it's obvious that a string player has bowed them, they've been bowed for a section with 20 violins, while in our pit we'll have 4 or 6 trying to balance with the winds and rhythm sections (WITHOUT mics, if I have anything to say about it!). I agree with John that a good background in bowings is vital to indicate your preferences and that all people who write for strings need to understand them, even if they don't mark them, simply so they can have a good idea what the people playing the music have to deal with when they play. Non-string players can be very silly in what they expect string players to be capable of doing, just as string players can be very silly in what they expect brass and woodwind players to be able to do. Specific case in point: Sometimes phrase marks are drawn over such a long passage that our first impression is that they can't possible be bowed that way, without changing bows. But it's also a way for a composer to force a true pianissimo from the strings, even though it takes very fine bow control. So when Dvorák does it, we trust him because he was a violist, but when an academic composer does it we probably will NOT trust him. But orchestra protocols usually take care of this: section players watch their principals, and principals watch their concertmaster. But in the pit, the rule is to break all slurs needed to get a big tone. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] harp pedal diagram
At 10:43 AM -0700 9/18/09, Lee Actor wrote: I used to put pedal diagrams in harp parts until a harpist told me that regardless of what is in the part, every harpist will write in their own pedaling. I see it as similar to printing fingering in string parts (i.e., presumptuous), unless your name is Carlos Salzedo. Well put, Lee! I never put in string fingerings, knowing that my own fingerings would be too advanced for some (community) players, but too limited for full-time professionals. Unless, of course, it's for a special effect, like sul G. I do, however, ALWAYS mark bowings, as any composer or arranger should do, and knowing how should be part of the detailed knowledge that composer or arranger should have mastered. Phrasing is bowing, and vice versa. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] harp pedal diagram
I disagree. IMO it is absolutely the composer's responsibility to indicate the pedalling in any harp part, whether by diagram or by the older method of writing in the pitch names. As for harpist's preferring to do it themselves, I can only cite the example of Lejaren Hiller, whose music I publish and who never bothered with pedalling diagrams. On one extracted harp part, the harpist pencilled in the note Jerry, harps have pedals! I add pedalling diagrams to the harp parts in all my editions of his work. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ On Sep 18, 2009, at 1:41 AM, toronado...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 1:56 PM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: There are at least 2 active harpists (and teachers) on the SibList, and their consensus is that harpists would much prefer to enter their own diagrams, in the forms they prefer, and put them where they want them. Unless you are an experienced harpist yourself, the better part of valor might be to avoid putting in your own. John I agree. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] harp pedal diagram
I would suppose different harpists are different. I had one tell me emphatically that it was cheating for a harpist to use someone else's diagrams. Since she never played my concerto we never did test it in practice. ajr I disagree. IMO it is absolutely the composer's responsibility to indicate the pedalling in any harp part, whether by diagram or by the older method of writing in the pitch names. As for harpist's preferring to do it themselves, I can only cite the example of Lejaren Hiller, whose music I publish and who never bothered with pedalling diagrams. On one extracted harp part, the harpist pencilled in the note Jerry, harps have pedals! I add pedalling diagrams to the harp parts in all my editions of his work. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ On Sep 18, 2009, at 1:41 AM, toronado...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 1:56 PM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: There are at least 2 active harpists (and teachers) on the SibList, and their consensus is that harpists would much prefer to enter their own diagrams, in the forms they prefer, and put them where they want them. Unless you are an experienced harpist yourself, the better part of valor might be to avoid putting in your own. John I agree. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] harp pedal diagram
I disagree. IMO it is absolutely the composer's responsibility to indicate the pedalling in any harp part, whether by diagram or by the older method of writing in the pitch names. As for harpist's preferring to do it themselves, I can only cite the example of Lejaren Hiller, whose music I publish and who never bothered with pedalling diagrams. On one extracted harp part, the harpist pencilled in the note Jerry, harps have pedals! I add pedalling diagrams to the harp parts in all my editions of his work. Andrew Stiller I used to put pedal diagrams in harp parts until a harpist told me that regardless of what is in the part, every harpist will write in their own pedaling. I see it as similar to printing fingering in string parts (i.e., presumptuous), unless your name is Carlos Salzedo. Lee Actor Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic Assistant Conductor, Nova Vista Symphony http://www.leeactor.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] harp pedal diagram
Lee Actor wrote: I disagree. IMO it is absolutely the composer's responsibility to indicate the pedalling in any harp part, whether by diagram or by the older method of writing in the pitch names. As for harpist's preferring to do it themselves, I can only cite the example of Lejaren Hiller, whose music I publish and who never bothered with pedalling diagrams. On one extracted harp part, the harpist pencilled in the note Jerry, harps have pedals! I add pedalling diagrams to the harp parts in all my editions of his work. Andrew Stiller I used to put pedal diagrams in harp parts until a harpist told me that regardless of what is in the part, every harpist will write in their own pedaling. I see it as similar to printing fingering in string parts (i.e., presumptuous), unless your name is Carlos Salzedo. That seems to be the consensus of the harpists on the Sibelius list as well -- leave them out unless you're a harpist and know what the heck you're doing. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] harp pedal diagram
Passing strange. mp subito -- is too much confusion and entire absence of harp pedals is no confusion at all! Gerald Berg From: dhbailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 2:11:11 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] harp pedal diagram Lee Actor wrote: I disagree. IMO it is absolutely the composer's responsibility to indicate the pedalling in any harp part, whether by diagram or by the older method of writing in the pitch names. As for harpist's preferring to do it themselves, I can only cite the example of Lejaren Hiller, whose music I publish and who never bothered with pedalling diagrams. On one extracted harp part, the harpist pencilled in the note Jerry, harps have pedals! I add pedalling diagrams to the harp parts in all my editions of his work. Andrew Stiller I used to put pedal diagrams in harp parts until a harpist told me that regardless of what is in the part, every harpist will write in their own pedaling. I see it as similar to printing fingering in string parts (i.e., presumptuous), unless your name is Carlos Salzedo. That seems to be the consensus of the harpists on the Sibelius list as well -- leave them out unless you're a harpist and know what the heck you're doing. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] harp pedal diagram
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Aaron Sherber aa...@sherber.com wrote: On 9/11/2009 9:48 PM, toronado...@gmail.com wrote: Anyone use the engraver text fonts to do graphical harp pedal diagrams? (O, shift -O, P, shift -P) A much better solution is Matthew Hindson's freeware Harp Pedal font: http://www.hindson.com.au/wordpress/free-fonts-available-for-download/ I've used this for a few projects and been very pleased. Aaron. Thanks for the link. I tried it out and decided it is good, but I like the engraver font a bit better. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] harp pedal diagram
On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 1:56 PM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: There are at least 2 active harpists (and teachers) on the SibList, and their consensus is that harpists would much prefer to enter their own diagrams, in the forms they prefer, and put them where they want them. Unless you are an experienced harpist yourself, the better part of valor might be to avoid putting in your own. John I agree. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] harp pedal diagram
At 6:48 PM -0700 9/11/09, toronado...@gmail.com wrote: Anyone use the engraver text fonts to do graphical harp pedal diagrams? (O, shift -O, P, shift -P) Makes it alot easier than futzing with the shape designer stuff, but do harpists like the way it looks OK, because it does look a bit different. Or am I using the wrong font/characters? There are at least 2 active harpists (and teachers) on the SibList, and their consensus is that harpists would much prefer to enter their own diagrams, in the forms they prefer, and put them where they want them. Unless you are an experienced harpist yourself, the better part of valor might be to avoid putting in your own. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] harp pedal diagram
Anyone use the engraver text fonts to do graphical harp pedal diagrams? (O, shift -O, P, shift -P) Makes it alot easier than futzing with the shape designer stuff, but do harpists like the way it looks OK, because it does look a bit different. Or am I using the wrong font/characters? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] harp pedal diagram
On 9/11/2009 9:48 PM, toronado...@gmail.com wrote: Anyone use the engraver text fonts to do graphical harp pedal diagrams? (O, shift -O, P, shift -P) A much better solution is Matthew Hindson's freeware Harp Pedal font: http://www.hindson.com.au/wordpress/free-fonts-available-for-download/ I've used this for a few projects and been very pleased. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
