RE: [Finale] Scoring for Band--Public Thanks
Listers, I have learned a great deal from your responses to my post. Thanx to all of you for taking my request seriously and sharing your wisdom! I'll post a couple individual items & then move offlist if necessary. I am in the process of acquiring most all of the sources mentioned and will indeed trust my instinct and experience [to some extent anyway ;-) ] Jim W. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Christopher Smith Sent: Mon 13-Feb-06 22:07 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Scoring for Band On Feb 13, 2006, at 4:39 PM, Williams, Jim wrote: > I would also talk about bass trombones, but Louisville is not far from > Indianapolis, and Mr. Horton might wrap his triple-trigger bi-valve > low BBB XL-bore nitro-cylindrical confabulator around my size 16.5 > neck seven or eight times. > > Jim W. Hey, we bass trombonists play with dynamics! Fortissimo is a dynamic! Christopher (Quote of the year: "Whaddya mean, play with more dynamics? I'm already playing as loud as I can!") 8-) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale <>___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Scoring for Band - now overplaying brass, more
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Raymond Horton Sent: Mon 13-Feb-06 21:19 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Scoring for Band - now overplaying brass, more >This just reminds me of an old recording I heard a few times (cannot >find it now - though I haven't searched extensively) of Sousa Marches >- played under the direction of his descendants. It was so much >lighter and more transparent than the versions with which we are >familiar that it sounded almost Mozartean. Part of this was a result >of scoring (fewer instruments per section) and part from >interpretation. Mark your score "Non-Bombastico"! > >Not only that, Chuck, but the (low) brass instruments were MUCH smaller in >Sousa's days than they are now. I soloed a couple years ago on a double-bell >euphonium that used to belong to one of Sousa's Euphonium players and it was a >"pea shooter" of the first order--smaller bore than today's "student" models! >Many of the Eb tubas of that vintage were the same bore size as my Willson >Euphonium pitched a FIFTH higher. Simone Mantia's trombone was smaller bore >than a current King 2B. My experience with high brass is not as extensive, >but my guess is that there were both Cornets and Trumpets in the old bands, >which also would have taken some of the edge off the sound as well. One of >Harvey Phillips's biggest gripes with current orchestral brass playing, esp. >in the trombones/tuba, is the sheer SIZE of the instruments and the associated >volume. Have you seen live performances with the plastic shields up isolating >the brass? Some of those things they call 6/4 tubas are scary.! ..more than one famous orchestral player blew their chops out from playing those things. They need to be licensed. > >I would also talk about bass trombones, but Louisville is not far from >Indianapolis, and Mr. Horton might wrap his triple-trigger bi-valve low BBB >XL-bore nitro-cylindrical confabulator around my size 16.5 neck seven or eight >times. > >Jim W. > > You know what happens when you "assume" don't you? Yeah. Speaking of Sousa marches, as an example, I got so tired of waiting for conductors, or first trumpet players, to do _anything_ toward performance practice, (brass lay out second strain first time, ditto last strain first time, etc.) that I just started speaking up, every time we get one, and suggesting it myself. Bravo! And, as far as overplaying brass in general - we used to have a trumpet player like that - but we don't any more. We shipped him up to teach at a large music-factory/university a few miles to your southeast. That's all I'll say. Understood. That says it all. Not sure if it's become any different with the passage of time. (My bi-valve low BBB XL-bore nitro-cylindrical confabulator only has two triggers, anyway.) http://www.orchestralibrary.com/instruments/Strandbone3.jpg Check this out--is it a contrabass? If so, am I right that it's a totally different setup/wrap than the usual contra? You know you may not have us to kick around for long? This is the worst contract mess yet - our Board of Directors seems to be hell-bent on Chapter Seven (full liquidation) and trying to replace it in a year or so with something smaller and cheaper. They pretended to negotiate for three sessions, then pulled their "offer" from the table. Our contract doesn't even expire until August! Right now they say they won't even go to mediation unless we agree to a smaller orchestra first. They want something like Owensboro (a small city in Kentucky) that buses in kids from IU to fill out every concert. Sigh - This orchestra has a 70 year history, and they seem to be ready to give it up that easily. Sad stuff...I met Art Hicks in 1970 or so through Lee Richardson, who used to live in Louisville before he went to Florida, first for the Florida Symphony (now gone, yes?) then to Disney because the pay was so much better. Art had either just gotten back from Israel or was about to go--can't remember. I was at Indiana U (played a lot, studied with H. Phillips, but was not a music major) and lived across the hall from one of your bass players--Mike Chmielewski (or however he spells it) & also knew his wife Sue. Again assuming, I hope they're still together. One never knows! Jim W. http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060121/NEWS01/601210418 http://www.savethelo.org/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale <>___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Scoring for Band
On Feb 13, 2006, at 4:39 PM, Williams, Jim wrote: I would also talk about bass trombones, but Louisville is not far from Indianapolis, and Mr. Horton might wrap his triple-trigger bi-valve low BBB XL-bore nitro-cylindrical confabulator around my size 16.5 neck seven or eight times. Jim W. Hey, we bass trombonists play with dynamics! Fortissimo is a dynamic! Christopher (Quote of the year: "Whaddya mean, play with more dynamics? I'm already playing as loud as I can!") 8-) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Scoring for Band - now overplaying brass, more
This just reminds me of an old recording I heard a few times (cannot find it now - though I haven't searched extensively) of Sousa Marches - played under the direction of his descendants. It was so much lighter and more transparent than the versions with which we are familiar that it sounded almost Mozartean. Part of this was a result of scoring (fewer instruments per section) and part from interpretation. Mark your score "Non-Bombastico"! Not only that, Chuck, but the (low) brass instruments were MUCH smaller in Sousa's days than they are now. I soloed a couple years ago on a double-bell euphonium that used to belong to one of Sousa's Euphonium players and it was a "pea shooter" of the first order--smaller bore than today's "student" models! Many of the Eb tubas of that vintage were the same bore size as my Willson Euphonium pitched a FIFTH higher. Simone Mantia's trombone was smaller bore than a current King 2B. My experience with high brass is not as extensive, but my guess is that there were both Cornets and Trumpets in the old bands, which also would have taken some of the edge off the sound as well. One of Harvey Phillips's biggest gripes with current orchestral brass playing, esp. in the trombones/tuba, is the sheer SIZE of the instruments and the associated volume. Have you seen live performances with the plastic shields up isolating the brass? Some of those things they call 6/4 tubas are scary.! ..more than one famous orchestral player blew their chops out from playing those things. They need to be licensed. I would also talk about bass trombones, but Louisville is not far from Indianapolis, and Mr. Horton might wrap his triple-trigger bi-valve low BBB XL-bore nitro-cylindrical confabulator around my size 16.5 neck seven or eight times. Jim W. You know what happens when you "assume" don't you?Speaking of Sousa marches, as an example, I got so tired of waiting for conductors, or first trumpet players, to do _anything_ toward performance practice, (brass lay out second strain first time, ditto last strain first time, etc.) that I just started speaking up, every time we get one, and suggesting it myself. And, as far as overplaying brass in general - we used to have a trumpet player like that - but we don't any more. We shipped him up to teach at a large music-factory/university a few miles to your southeast. That's all I'll say. (My bi-valve low BBB XL-bore nitro-cylindrical confabulator only has two triggers, anyway.) RBH Louisville Orchestra You know you may not have us to kick around for long? This is the worst contract mess yet - our Board of Directors seems to be hell-bent on Chapter Seven (full liquidation) and trying to replace it in a year or so with something smaller and cheaper. They pretended to negotiate for three sessions, then pulled their "offer" from the table. Our contract doesn't even expire until August! Right now they say they won't even go to mediation unless we agree to a smaller orchestra first. They want something like Owensboro (a small city in Kentucky) that buses in kids from IU to fill out every concert. Sigh - This orchestra has a 70 year history, and they seem to be ready to give it up that easily. http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060121/NEWS01/601210418 http://www.savethelo.org/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Scoring for Band
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Chuck Israels Sent: Mon 13-Feb-06 14:30 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Scoring for Band On Feb 13, 2006, at 10:20 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: > It was also hard not to make everything REALLY BIG AND LOUD, which > is my weakness. This just reminds me of an old recording I heard a few times (cannot find it now - though I haven't searched extensively) of Sousa Marches - played under the direction of his descendants. It was so much lighter and more transparent than the versions with which we are familiar that it sounded almost Mozartean. Part of this was a result of scoring (fewer instruments per section) and part from interpretation. Mark your score "Non-Bombastico"! Not only that, Chuck, but the (low) brass instruments were MUCH smaller in Sousa's days than they are now. I soloed a couple years ago on a double-bell euphonium that used to belong to one of Sousa's Euphonium players and it was a "pea shooter" of the first order--smaller bore than today's "student" models! Many of the Eb tubas of that vintage were the same bore size as my Willson Euphonium pitched a FIFTH higher. Simone Mantia's trombone was smaller bore than a current King 2B. My experience with high brass is not as extensive, but my guess is that there were both Cornets and Trumpets in the old bands, which also would have taken some of the edge off the sound as well. One of Harvey Phillips's biggest gripes with current orchestral brass playing, esp. in the trombones/tuba, is the sheer SIZE of the instruments and the associated volume. Have you seen live performances with the plastic shields up isolating the brass? Some of those things they call 6/4 tubas are scary...more than one famous orchestral player blew their chops out from playing those things. They need to be licensed. I would also talk about bass trombones, but Louisville is not far from Indianapolis, and Mr. Horton might wrap his triple-trigger bi-valve low BBB XL-bore nitro-cylindrical confabulator around my size 16.5 neck seven or eight times. Jim W. <>___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Scoring for Band
Jim:
If you are coming at this from the point of view of an orchestral
person, then my guess is that you'd benefit from some generalizations
in the differences bewteen the ensembles.
Clarity of lines is the biggest difference, I've noticed. When all
looks "equal", the low voices are weaker than in orchestral writing,
particularly in the baritone/tenor range. If you have a low prominent
line, over-orchestrate it. This is partly because of numbers, but also
because the overall overtones sit lower in the band and that register
is often masked.
Since you're writing for euphonium solo, this can be a problem. Under
orchestrate what your instincts tell you. Any and all concertos are
difficult to orchestrate for band euphonium, doubly so.
Still, I have heard well-orchestrated euphonium works with band. Check
out http://euphonium.com/ for more info.
-Carolyn
On 2/13/06, Williams, Jim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Collective Wisdom,
>
> I am trying to take the piano accompaniment for a euphonium solo and score it
> for band/wind ens. I know all the usual stuff about transpositions, ranges,
> etc., so I am not a total novice. Is there a reference scoring text for BAND
> only? Most of what I've been able to find is for orchestra with band as an
> afterthought. While I see the value of experiential learning, and have a
> large library of excellent samples, I would like to shorten the learning
> curve, since I may be able to play the piece in the not-so-distant future.
>
> Advice, please?? ("All hope abandon" doesn't count)
>
> Thanks, Jim W.
>
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Finale] Scoring for Band
On Feb 13, 2006, at 10:20 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: It was also hard not to make everything REALLY BIG AND LOUD, which is my weakness. This just reminds me of an old recording I heard a few times (cannot find it now - though I haven't searched extensively) of Sousa Marches - played under the direction of his descendants. It was so much lighter and more transparent than the versions with which we are familiar that it sounded almost Mozartean. Part of this was a result of scoring (fewer instruments per section) and part from interpretation. Mark your score "Non-Bombastico"! Don't rely overly much on the sample playback. They do not react as real players do at all, especially to technical challenges, and will give you a terrible estimate of balance. Amen to this. I don't know if this is a fault of samples in general, or of the particular built in balances in the ones I use (mostly Garritan Jazz), but I have a template with my own guesses about mixer settings. They are better than the defaults (for me) but still not right, and they do not react as living people do. Even inexperienced students have more flexible reactions than the samples. Advice to Jim - have fun! Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Scoring for Band
On Feb 13, 2006, at 11:15 AM, Williams, Jim wrote:
Collective Wisdom,
I am trying to take the piano accompaniment for a euphonium solo and
score it for band/wind ens. I know all the usual stuff about
transpositions, ranges, etc., so I am not a total novice. Is there a
reference scoring text for BAND only? Most of what I've been able to
find is for orchestra with band as an afterthought. While I see the
value of experiential learning, and have a large library of excellent
samples, I would like to shorten the learning curve, since I may be
able to play the piece in the not-so-distant future.
Advice, please?? ("All hope abandon" doesn't count)
\
Here's a book on strictly concert band (I grabbed the first URL I saw
on it) I don't know it, so go with eyes open
http://musicbooksplus.com/arranging-concert-band-p-1783.html
and Gary White's book is fantastic, with an extended section on
breaking down piano figurations (he also has the best chapter on young
players I have ever seen in an arranging book.)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0697354326/026-9332273-1217261
and Kent Kennan's orchestration book also deals extensively with
translating piano figures, though not for band specifically.
http://ostg.pricegrabber.com/search_books2.php/book_id=10090970/search=
I know what you mean about writing for concert band specifically; there
are certain expectations and a band "idiom" and culture that it is
helpful to know, though the best way to write a terrible arrangement is
to stick to the "expectations" too closely. Then again, a band is not
an orchestra, and it is not a jazz big band, and it is not a
combination wind quintet, brass quintet, and percussion ensemble on
steroids either, so bringing too much of those ideas with you can be
counter-productive, too.
I've never seen a book on those aspects of concert band writing, as I
have for orchestra, jazz band, and even for brass band. If Donald
Hunsberger ever writes one, I would get it in a blink of an eye,
because he is the most brilliant arranger for wind ensemble I have ever
known of. Checking out some scores of things you like the sound of
really helps, too, especially if you have a recording or know the work
really well from having played it. I learned how to write for orchestra
sitting in the trombone section of an orchestra with the scores to the
works we were playing on my lap.
I just finished three arrangements for concert band (this morning at 4
am I printed the last part!) and I wrestled with them something awful.
I know the players are pretty good, some more so than others, yet I
know that they won't always have two bassoons, two oboes, Eb clarinet,
four horns, and a first trumpet with an easy high F. It was really hard
to make decisions about how to score something with a cue somewhere so
that the passage wouldn't be disemboweled if a chair was empty, yet
still sound convincing. It was also hard not to make everything REALLY
BIG AND LOUD, which is my weakness.
Don't rely overly much on the sample playback. They do not react as
real players do at all, especially to technical challenges, and will
give you a terrible estimate of balance. They can only work well if you
ALREADY know what the balance will be, and can adjust it to what you
know it will actually sound like, in which case you wouldn't need it at
all except to play it for someone less knowledgeable than yourself.
If you have a band you can experiment on, bring a tape recorder and
have them read a version through, then make revisions where you see
fit. This is actually the shortest learning curve I know of to learning
to write well. If you have enough lead time, you could get several
revisions read through before saying, "this is the final version."
Good luck, and do it!
Christopher
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Re: [Finale] Scoring for Band
At 2/13/2006 11:41 AM, dhbailey wrote: >For advice on doublings, my advice is simply use your imagination. In >an accompanying situation making sure that the band's tone color doesn't >overpower the soloist is the primary concern, and along with that is >being sure that the accompanying lines are heard. Other than that, I'm >not sure anything would be gained by a book on orchestrating for bands. There is a major difference in bands and orchestras, I think. Many school bands are missing some instruments. I always liked it, when the parts had a lot of cue notes for instruments that might not be there. One year, I did not have a tuba. I started out adding notes to the parts for the Contrabass clarinet and Bari-sax. I ended up teaching the Bari-sax to read tuba parts and giving her both parts. My Instructions: "When you're not playing the sax part, play the tuba part." Needless to say, she was my favorite bandsman. Phil Daley < AutoDesk > http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Scoring for Band
At 11:15 AM -0500 2/13/06, Williams, Jim wrote:
Collective Wisdom,
I am trying to take the piano accompaniment for a euphonium solo and
score it for band/wind ens. I know all the usual stuff about
transpositions, ranges, etc., so I am not a total novice. Is there a
reference scoring text for BAND only? Most of what I've been able to
find is for orchestra with band as an afterthought. While I see the
value of experiential learning, and have a large library of
excellent samples, I would like to shorten the learning curve, since
I may be able to play the piece in the not-so-distant future.
Advice, please?? ("All hope abandon" doesn't count)
Thanks, Jim W.
First, a couple of obvious questions. Is it a copyrighted work? And
are you completely sure it isn't already available?
"Abandon hope" is for the story of Orpheus! However, what you want
to do is probably one of the tougher things an arranger can tackle.
The piano part may have been conceived for piano, or may be a
compressed version of an orchestration or band arrangement. In
either case, it's been put into a form suitable for piano, and you're
going to have to approach it in terms of re-conceiving it for wind
band. I did something similar when I arranged Debussy's "Claire de
lune" for 12 voices. I looked at the piano figurations and tried to
reverse engineer the thinking: "What was Debussy after when he wrote
these figurations; what can voices do that will make a similar effect
through totally different means?" On a very practical level, if you
go into the project with that kind of open mind, you're already
halfway there!
As a beginner it will help you to think of the sections of the
ensemble as blocks of sound, and use contrasts between blocks rather
than contrast between solo colors as you might with an orchestra.
Change busy arpeggios to noodling on chord tones. Think about how
long chords should sustain, since the piano score won't be any help
with that. Play with it and do what seems right. You'll find out
soon enough in rehearsal what works and what doesn't!
I have--packed away right now and very probably out of print--a book
by one of the more famous guys called "Scoring For The Band." I've
had it a very long time (and my wife completely lost it when she
first saw it on the shelf and thought of the obvious double entendre!
[Europeans may ignore that interjection.]). You might find it in a
university library, or through interlibrary loan. I can't remember
how helpful it was, and I certainly haven't used any reference in my
own composing or arranging for band for a very long time.
Go for it! And best of luck.
John
--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] Scoring for Band
Williams, Jim wrote:
Collective Wisdom,
I am trying to take the piano accompaniment for a euphonium solo and score it for band/wind ens. I know all the usual stuff about transpositions, ranges, etc., so I am not a total novice. Is there a reference scoring text for BAND only? Most of what I've been able to find is for orchestra with band as an afterthought. While I see the value of experiential learning, and have a large library of excellent samples, I would like to shorten the learning curve, since I may be able to play the piece in the not-so-distant future.
Advice, please?? ("All hope abandon" doesn't count)
Thanks, Jim W.
What exactly are you looking for? Suggetions for doubling lines, or
something more mundane like what the various ranges are for the
different instruments (student, amateur, pro)?
For wonderful information about each instrument, you should own Andrew
Stiller's Handbook of Instrumentation, available either through his own
Kallisti Press or through www.npcimaging.com.
For advice on doublings, my advice is simply use your imagination. In
an accompanying situation making sure that the band's tone color doesn't
overpower the soloist is the primary concern, and along with that is
being sure that the accompanying lines are heard. Other than that, I'm
not sure anything would be gained by a book on orchestrating for bands.
My suggestion is to use Andrew Stiller's book for technical information,
and then use your experience to double the lines when and if you feel
that's appropriate.
--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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