RE: [Finale] artificial or natural harmonic notation?
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lee Actor > Sent: 11 September 2006 17:47 > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: RE: [Finale] artificial or natural harmonic notation? > > > > At 12:49 AM -0700 9/11/06, Lee Actor wrote: > > > > > >Besides, in some contexts it may be advantageous to > > >playing it as an artificial harmonic, as this would allow vibrato > > >(impossible on a natural harmonic). > > > > Not entirely true. It's a different kind of vibrato with limited > > amplitude, but quite easy to produce and sounds like ... well ... > > vibrato. > > > > John > > You're right for octave harmonics, which have some leeway. > But at the 4th > above the open string, you basically lose the harmonic with > even a slight > deviation from pitch, at least on violin. Maybe on cello? > > -Lee > A slight increase in finger pressure does enable a variation of pitch, although yes, it's far more difficult than at the octave! It's certainly possible to lower the D harmonic on the G string by around a third of a tone before it breaks into a multiphonic. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] artificial or natural harmonic notation?
> At 12:49 AM -0700 9/11/06, Lee Actor wrote: > > > >Besides, in some contexts it may be advantageous to > >playing it as an artificial harmonic, as this would allow vibrato > >(impossible on a natural harmonic). > > Not entirely true. It's a different kind of vibrato with limited > amplitude, but quite easy to produce and sounds like ... well ... > vibrato. > > John You're right for octave harmonics, which have some leeway. But at the 4th above the open string, you basically lose the harmonic with even a slight deviation from pitch, at least on violin. Maybe on cello? -Lee ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] artificial or natural harmonic notation?
> The notation for artificial harmonics exists for clarification > purposes, and is not mystically connected to the idea of the harmonic > being artificial; it is therefore perfectly acceptable to use this > notation for a natural harmonic where that would be clearer. > > However, to make certain the player does not go for an artificial > harmonic on another string, you should either indicate the > string name, > or put a zero above the note to indicate the open string. > > Andrew Stiller I suppose it's worth noting another technique for notating natural harmonics, which uses just the diamond notehead by itself. This is most relevant to a series of various natural harmonics, particularly when upper partials (e.g. the natural harmonic at the major sixth above the open string) are involved. The outer movements of the Stravinsky violin concerto is two examples which I know use this, and also use small bracketed noteheads to indicate the intended pitches, which in this case is sufficient to remove the need for roman numeral indications of strings. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] artificial or natural harmonic notation?
On Sep 10, 2006, at 11:30 PM, Randolph Peters wrote: I have a section in a piece I'm writing where the violin soloist plays a series of artificial harmonics (P4 above). When the passage comes to an open string, I've usually thought of those notes as being natural harmonics. The thing is that the traditional notation for natural harmonics looks odd and jumps out at you. Should I carry on with the artificial harmonics notation (a note and a diamond a P4th above) or should I mix the two kinds of harmonics notation? The notation for artificial harmonics exists for clarification purposes, and is not mystically connected to the idea of the harmonic being artificial; it is therefore perfectly acceptable to use this notation for a natural harmonic where that would be clearer. However, to make certain the player does not go for an artificial harmonic on another string, you should either indicate the string name, or put a zero above the note to indicate the open string. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] artificial or natural harmonic notation?
At 12:49 AM -0700 9/11/06, Lee Actor wrote: Besides, in some contexts it may be advantageous to playing it as an artificial harmonic, as this would allow vibrato (impossible on a natural harmonic). Not entirely true. It's a different kind of vibrato with limited amplitude, but quite easy to produce and sounds like ... well ... vibrato. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] artificial or natural harmonic notation?
At 10:30 PM -0500 9/10/06, Randolph Peters wrote: I was puzzling over a notational problem I had regarding artificial and natural harmonics notation on a stringed instrument. Don't feel bad. I'm a string player and every time I come across harmonics I have to stop and figure out what's intended! It's especially confusing in the books for Broadway musicals, since the copyists didn't always know or follow the rules!! I have a section in a piece I'm writing where the violin soloist plays a series of artificial harmonics (P4 above). When the passage comes to an open string, I've usually thought of those notes as being natural harmonics. The thing is that the traditional notation for natural harmonics looks odd and jumps out at you. Yes, they are natural harmonics, but PLEASE treat them the same as the others, as artificial, for consistency. No problem sightreading them that way; BIG problem reading if they bounce between systems. And the player, not you, will decide whether to use the open string based on the geometry of the passage. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] artificial or natural harmonic notation?
Thanks to Owain, Christopher and Lee for your thoughts on harmonics notation. I'm going to stick with the artificial harmonics notation for the extended passage I was referring to. This list is a very useful resource! -Randolph Peters ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] artificial or natural harmonic notation?
If it were part of a melodic line, I'd probably avoid the open-string harmonic, too. Not just for the reasons mentioned, but because it is often much easier to play with a sustained sound, with shifting of the consistent 1-4 handshape, instead of switching from 1-4 to 0-3 as needed for the open string. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher Smith > Sent: 11 September 2006 12:56 > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: Re: [Finale] artificial or natural harmonic notation? > > > It's been my experience that string players pretty much universally > ignore my helpful notations about how to play harmonics, and unless > it is impossible, will always play an artificial harmonic > rather than > a natural one. They explain that it is for tuning, as you can't tune > a natural harmonic; and for timbre, as the sound of an open > string is > substantially different from a stopped one. > > Regardless, the notation with the diamond a 4th higher is perfectly > correct, even on an open string, though as I said, most players will > probably play it on the next lower string so that it will be an > artificial harmonic in any case. > > Christopher > > > On Sep 10, 2006, at 11:30 PM, Randolph Peters wrote: > > > I was puzzling over a notational problem I had regarding > artificial > > and natural harmonics notation on a stringed instrument. > > > > I have a section in a piece I'm writing where the violin soloist > > plays a series of artificial harmonics (P4 above). When the > passage > > comes to an open string, I've usually thought of those notes as > > being natural harmonics. The thing is that the traditional > notation > > for natural harmonics looks odd and jumps out at you. > > > > Should I carry on with the artificial harmonics notation (a note > > and a diamond a P4th above) or should I mix the two kinds of > > harmonics notation? [Let's assume the player is using an open > > string and not a fingered version of the same note.] > > > > I appeal to the wisdom of the list. > > > > -Randolph Peters > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] artificial or natural harmonic notation?
It's been my experience that string players pretty much universally ignore my helpful notations about how to play harmonics, and unless it is impossible, will always play an artificial harmonic rather than a natural one. They explain that it is for tuning, as you can't tune a natural harmonic; and for timbre, as the sound of an open string is substantially different from a stopped one. Regardless, the notation with the diamond a 4th higher is perfectly correct, even on an open string, though as I said, most players will probably play it on the next lower string so that it will be an artificial harmonic in any case. Christopher On Sep 10, 2006, at 11:30 PM, Randolph Peters wrote: I was puzzling over a notational problem I had regarding artificial and natural harmonics notation on a stringed instrument. I have a section in a piece I'm writing where the violin soloist plays a series of artificial harmonics (P4 above). When the passage comes to an open string, I've usually thought of those notes as being natural harmonics. The thing is that the traditional notation for natural harmonics looks odd and jumps out at you. Should I carry on with the artificial harmonics notation (a note and a diamond a P4th above) or should I mix the two kinds of harmonics notation? [Let's assume the player is using an open string and not a fingered version of the same note.] I appeal to the wisdom of the list. -Randolph Peters ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] artificial or natural harmonic notation?
> I was puzzling over a notational problem I had regarding artificial > and natural harmonics notation on a stringed instrument. > > I have a section in a piece I'm writing where the violin soloist > plays a series of artificial harmonics (P4 above). When the passage > comes to an open string, I've usually thought of those notes as being > natural harmonics. The thing is that the traditional notation for > natural harmonics looks odd and jumps out at you. > > Should I carry on with the artificial harmonics notation (a note and > a diamond a P4th above) or should I mix the two kinds of harmonics > notation? [Let's assume the player is using an open string and not a > fingered version of the same note.] > > I appeal to the wisdom of the list. > > -Randolph Peters I'm not sure what you mean by "traditional notation for natural harmonics". Let's say we're talking about, for example, the natural harmonic at A a fourth above the open E, sounding two octaves above the open E. That could be notated three ways: 1) at the sounding pitch with a small circle above it (the "traditional" natural harmonic notation, though it is not unambiguous and might likely be played up high on the E string); 2) with an open diamond notehead at the A where the finger lightly touches the string; or 3) a diamond on the A plus a note of the proper rhythmic duration on the E (the standard for artificial harmonics). I would definitely use the last mentioned method, as it leaves the least room for doubt as to what you want. The second method cannot distinguish between, say, quarter and half notes, and the first method is too ambiguous and will look awkward among a series of artificial harmonics. Granted, using the recommended method could result in the note being played as an artificial harmonic on the A string (or even D), but if it's that important, you can always add a "sul E" or just "I" (Roman numeral one). Besides, in some contexts it may be advantageous to playing it as an artificial harmonic, as this would allow vibrato (impossible on a natural harmonic). Lee Actor Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic http://www.leeactor.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] artificial or natural harmonic notation?
Continue with the P4-above notation. It's perfectly normal and acceptable to use it for open-string harmonics, and in this context anything else is more unwieldly. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Randolph Peters > Sent: 11 September 2006 04:30 > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: [Finale] artificial or natural harmonic notation? > > > I was puzzling over a notational problem I had regarding artificial > and natural harmonics notation on a stringed instrument. > > I have a section in a piece I'm writing where the violin soloist > plays a series of artificial harmonics (P4 above). When the passage > comes to an open string, I've usually thought of those notes as being > natural harmonics. The thing is that the traditional notation for > natural harmonics looks odd and jumps out at you. > > Should I carry on with the artificial harmonics notation (a note and > a diamond a P4th above) or should I mix the two kinds of harmonics > notation? [Let's assume the player is using an open string and not a > fingered version of the same note.] > > I appeal to the wisdom of the list. > > -Randolph Peters > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
