Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Johannes Gebauer]

Darcy James Argue schrieb:

On 08 Jul 2005, at 11:02 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


Well, I tried this, how awful!!!
Now whenever there is an uneven number of notes in a measure it ends 
up being off-beat emphasized.



When you need to break the down-up pattern, use the keyswitched bowing 
indications (which are expressions, not articulations) to get, e.g., two 
upbows in a row.  Then switch back to the "alternate downbows and 
upbows" expression on the downbeat.


Yes, I realize this is the idea behind it. But you see, playback is not 
half as important to me to even start doing this. If I need to go 
through all these things to get decent playback out of GPO it's 
definitely not what I hoped for. Improvements in engraving matters, ease 
of use, linked parts, etc is much more important to me.


I am currently working on some string quartets, and it would take hours 
to go through them with downbows just to get proper bowing. And it would 
still sound like an army of elephants. Basically to get what I want I 
would have to put a marking on nearly every note.


Johannes
Johannes
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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Darcy James Argue]

On 08 Jul 2005, at 11:02 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


Well, I tried this, how awful!!!
Now whenever there is an uneven number of notes in a measure it ends 
up being off-beat emphasized.


When you need to break the down-up pattern, use the keyswitched bowing 
indications (which are expressions, not articulations) to get, e.g., 
two upbows in a row.  Then switch back to the "alternate downbows and 
upbows" expression on the downbeat.


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY

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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Johannes Gebauer]

Darcy James Argue schrieb:

Johannes,

You need to use the keyswitched instruments and download the library of 
keyswitching Finale expressions from the GPO website.  This makes it 
very easy to switch from legato, sustained articulations (default) to 
the "alternating bows" articulations (which you need for fast or 
detached passages).


It sounds like you might be happy using the "alternating bows" 
articulation exclusively.  If so, you just have to put an invisible 
keyswitching expression that triggers that style of articulation at the 
beginning of each part in your score.


Well, I tried this, how awful!!!
Now whenever there is an uneven number of notes in a measure it ends up 
being off-beat emphasized. It sounds like an army of 
elephants...Dreadful. Is there any way to get a similar kind of attack 
as with the Finale soundfont cello patch (I personally find that one 
quite well balanced)?


Johannes
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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Johannes Gebauer]

David W. Fenton schrieb:
I think Johannes was referring to the fact that the email message was 
unsigned, having no real name attached.


That's not normal for this mailing list, where no one hides behind an 
alias, and gives their real names in all discussions. Failure to do 
so immediately raises my suspicions about the motives of anyone 
hiding behind an alias.




True. In fact 99% of those people were people using illegal copies of 
Finale, and I believe all of those never replied when asked what their 
name was.


Johannes
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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[David W. Fenton]

On 5 Jul 2005 at 19:32, Gerald Berg wrote:

> On 4-Jul-05, at 4:21 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:
> >
> > First of all, how about telling us who you are?
> 
> The guy who wrote the keyswitch program for us, Johannes!  He said
> that.
> 
> It is a very handy thing.  You should thank Richard.
> 
> Be nice.

I think Johannes was referring to the fact that the email message was 
unsigned, having no real name attached.

That's not normal for this mailing list, where no one hides behind an 
alias, and gives their real names in all discussions. Failure to do 
so immediately raises my suspicions about the motives of anyone 
hiding behind an alias.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Gerald Berg]

On 4-Jul-05, at 4:21 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


First of all, how about telling us who you are?




The guy who wrote the keyswitch program for us, Johannes!  He said that.

It is a very handy thing.  You should thank Richard.

Be nice.

:)


Jerry


Gerald Berg

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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[John Bell]

On 5 Jul 2005, at 03:19, Lon Price wrote:

the only thing that's holding me back is my ancient dual 800 G4  
with "only" 1 GB of RAM.


Definition of "ancient" in Dictionary.com:

 Of or relating to times long past, especially those of the  
historical period before the fall of the Western Roman Empire (A.D.  
476).


Definition if "ancient" in your context:

Two years old.

Both definitions equally valid.

John
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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Lon Price]

On Jul 4, 2005, at 5:56 PM, John Bell wrote:You say that the keyswitches don't work for you. Sorry if this is obvious, but are you sure you've loaded the KS Instruments? eg, for Violins I: Vlns 1 KS Combo; and for Flute: Flute Solo KS.That's what I get for not reading the manual.  (I assume this is documented there.)  Anyway, KS expressions are now working for me.  Thanks so much for your kind help.  This was pretty tricky, though.  The KS.lib file showed up as a page of binary code, which always kinda freaks me out, but I saved it to my desktop and tried loading it in Finale, and it worked (after selecting "All Files").  And thanks for the help with Finale MIDI Setup.  This also works with sound modules, but you'll only be able to use the first 8 MIDI channels in each module that is sharing a slot--still kinda lame in my opinion.You don't need to create new switches for every project. If you import the library into your default Finale file, they are always there. You can edit them to your liking even if you don't understand the computer jargon. In GPO you can save various ensembles as .gpo files. What you do need to do for every project is to assign channels to instruments in Finale. That shouldn't take very long.Now that I understand the KS thing, the only thing that's holding me back is my ancient dual 800 G4 with "only" 1 GB of RAM.  I tried loading four GPO players to create a "virtual orchestra," but I maxed out my RAM halfway through loading the string section.  If I need a mockup of a full orchestra, I'd need to do it in Digital Performer, recording each section one at a time.Thanks again for your help,Lon  Lon Price, Los Angeles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   ___
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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[John Bell]

On 4 Jul 2005, at 23:18, Lon Price wrote:As I said in an earlier post, I got it to load, but the key switches didn't work.  I also updated GPO and Kontakt Player per your suggestion, but still got no results.  How are these switches supposed to work?  The flute N.V. switch is set to in playback to "dump,"  with "Number of Units:  3" and "Data: $90, $32 and $40."  I have no clue what any of this means.  Is it setting itself to actually load a sound, which would never work in real time?  It seems to me that these switches need to instantly switch to a pre-loaded sound, and that is far easier to accomplish by simply setting playback to the channel that contains the desired sound  (mentioned in an earlier post).  The problem with this method is that you'd have create new switches for every new project, or else create every new project from an existing template with exactly the same sounds loaded in exactly the same places.  I'm beginning to think this is getting to be more trouble than it's worth, as Johannes said: "Perhaps I would have to spend more time on the Finale files, but that's precisely what I hoped to avoid with GPO."Also, I downloaded the GPO Template document, but that won't work for me either, since FinMac has only four outputs, each with 16 channels.  I take this to mean that GPO2-1 would be output 17 on a Mac, instead of 9.  Which brings up the question: why do we only get four outputs on a Mac, when PC users get 8?  The more I get into this stuff the more I begin to realize that Finale MIDI implementation is still behind the times.  What I really want Finale for is to print out my music.  I use Digital Performer for everything else.  Getting decent playback in Finale is a nice luxury, if it can be accomplished without much fuss, but when all is said and done, I don't really need it, other than to check for errors.Sorry for the rant,No need to apologise for the rant, we all get frustrated with computers at times -- well I certainly do. When I was struggling with GPO, Darcy kindly sent these detailed instructions on how you get 8 outputs on Mac:In *Finale* MIDI Setup -- *not* in GPO studio -- in the first "Output Device" box (the one for MIDI Channels 1-16), first select "GPO Studio: 1".  Then, while holding down the "shift" key, in that same box, select "GPO Studio: 2".  The Output Device box should now say "GPO Studio: 1, GPO Studio: 2."You can continue to do this for the following three Output device boxes, so that the second one contians "GPO Studio: 3, GPO Studio 4", etc.  That way you can load all 8 GPO Studio "players," for a maximum of 64 instruments on 64 MIDI channels.Now, this is *important*, so listen up: for this to work in Finale, you have to have to take two additional steps.1) You have to go into GPO Studio and edit the channel assignments for all the *even-numbered* players.  So, go to GPO Studio Player 2 and change the MIDI channel for the first slot from "1" to "9".  (Do this by clicking and holding on the little MIDI icon just below the "CPU Usage" box.)  Go to the second slot in Player 2 and change the channel from "2" to "10," go to the third slot and change the channel from "3" to "11" and so on all the way down the line.  Now do the same thing in GPO Studio Player 4, GPO Studio Player 6, and GPO Studio Player 8.2) Now, for *Finale* purposes, you have to remember that the MIDI channels Finale uses are *NOT* the same as the ones you just set up GPO Studio.  In GPO Studio, once you have completed step 1, all of the odd-numbered players will have instruments on channels 1-8, and all of the the even-numbered players have instruments on channels 9-16.  But for *Finale* purposes, in the Instrument List, every instrument needs its *own* individual MIDI channel which is not shared by any other instrument.  To make this happen, in Finale's MIDI Setup, you already told Finale to assign MIDI Channels 1-16 to GPO Studio Players 1 & 2, Channels 17-32 to GPO Studio Players 3 & 4, Channels 33-48 to GPO Studio Players 5 & 6, and Channels 49-64 to GPO Studio Players 7 & 8.That means, in *Finale's* instrument setup, if you want a staff to play back using the instrument you have loaded into the first slot of GPO Studio Player 1, you assign that staff to Channel 1.  If you want it to play back using the instrument you have loaded into the first slot of GPO Studio Player 2, you assign that staff to Channel 9.  If you want the first slot of GPO Studio Player 3, use channel 17.  If you want the first slot of GPO Studio Player 4, use channel 25.  If you want the first slot of GPO Studio Player 5, use channel 33.  And so on.I've posted the following chart before -- I will post it again, but you may want to save it for future reference:GPO STUDIO                    FINALE MIDI CHANNELPlayer 1                            1-8Player 2                            9-16Player 3                            17-24Player 4                            25-32Player 5                            33-40Player 6        

Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Lon Price]

On Jul 4, 2005, at 2:18 PM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:Ths library file in question does indeed load on a Mac, if "All files" is activeAs I said in an earlier post, I got it to load, but the key switches didn't work.  I also updated GPO and Kontakt Player per your suggestion, but still got no results.  How are these switches supposed to work?  The flute N.V. switch is set to in playback to "dump,"  with "Number of Units:  3" and "Data: $90, $32 and $40."  I have no clue what any of this means.  Is it setting itself to actually load a sound, which would never work in real time?  It seems to me that these switches need to instantly switch to a pre-loaded sound, and that is far easier to accomplish by simply setting playback to the channel that contains the desired sound  (mentioned in an earlier post).  The problem with this method is that you'd have create new switches for every new project, or else create every new project from an existing template with exactly the same sounds loaded in exactly the same places.  I'm beginning to think this is getting to be more trouble than it's worth, as Johannes said: "Perhaps I would have to spend more time on the Finale files, but that's precisely what I hoped to avoid with GPO."Also, I downloaded the GPO Template document, but that won't work for me either, since FinMac has only four outputs, each with 16 channels.  I take this to mean that GPO2-1 would be output 17 on a Mac, instead of 9.  Which brings up the question: why do we only get four outputs on a Mac, when PC users get 8?  The more I get into this stuff the more I begin to realize that Finale MIDI implementation is still behind the times.  What I really want Finale for is to print out my music.  I use Digital Performer for everything else.  Getting decent playback in Finale is a nice luxury, if it can be accomplished without much fuss, but when all is said and done, I don't really need it, other than to check for errors.Sorry for the rant,Lon  Lon Price, Los Angeles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   ___
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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Johannes Gebauer]

Ths library file in question does indeed load on a Mac, if "All files" 
is active.


Johannes

Christopher Smith schrieb:



On Jul 3, 2005, at 7:16 PM, John Bell wrote:


On 3 Jul 2005, at 23:45, Lon Price wrote:


On Jul 3, 2005, at 12:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I provided the Keyswitch expression files on the GPO
website. For future reference, the one library file that you
said was not useable for you, is not true. It's a Finale
text expression library in a text file format. You can
download to your HD. When you want to load that library to a
document, choose show "all files". It should load correctly.
If it doesn't download correctly it might be a browser problem.

Just exactly where would I find this file? The only one I found
showed up as a Finale document, and would not load (error -12).

http://www.garritan.com/GPO-FinalePage.html

Finale Programs submitted by Users:
Finale KeySwitch Plug-In: "Try this one"

That should get you the file GPOKeySwitches.lib

Then load the library (as mentioned, you have to choose to show "all
files").


.lib files do not appear to be cross-platform. That is to say, a .lib 
file created on a PC will not load on a Mac, and vice versa.


I don't know if this is by design, but I have never succeeded in loading 
or sending a .lib file to or from a PCer, and I am on a Mac.


Christopher





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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Christopher Smith]

On Jul 3, 2005, at 7:16 PM, John Bell wrote:

On 3 Jul 2005, at 23:45, Lon Price wrote:

On Jul 3, 2005, at 12:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I provided the Keyswitch expression files on the GPO website. For future reference, the one library file that you said was not useable for you, is not true. It's a Finale text expression library in a text file format. You can download to your HD. When you want to load that library to a document, choose show "all files". It should load correctly. If it doesn't download correctly it might be a browser problem.
Just exactly where would I find this file? The only one I found showed up as a Finale document, and would not load (error -12).
http://www.garritan.com/GPO-FinalePage.html

Finale Programs submitted by Users:
Finale KeySwitch Plug-In: "Try this one"

That should get you the file GPOKeySwitches.lib

Then load the library (as mentioned, you have to choose to show "all files").


.lib files do not appear to be cross-platform. That is to say, a .lib file created on a PC will not load on a Mac, and vice versa.

I don't know if this is by design, but I have never succeeded in loading or sending a .lib file to or from a PCer, and I am on a Mac.

Christopher

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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Johannes Gebauer]

Make sure you have all the GPO updates, the KS instruments were changed.

Johannes

Lon Price schrieb:


On Jul 4, 2005, at 1:34 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

You will have to unstuff this file with the latest Stuffit Expander, 
error -12 seems to happen when a file is unstuffed with something 
else, at least here.


Johannes



I finally got the file to load, but the expressions don't seem to do 
anything.  I loaded the flute-piano multi and tried to get the flute to 
alternate between vib. and N.V.  Application of the GPO Key Switches 
didn't get any results.  I got it to work by creating two different 
flutes (vib. and N.V.) in the Instrument List.  Then I created my own 
expressions, assigning them to playback on different channels, as 
explained in the tutorial: Fl. vib. on channel 2 and Fl. N.V. on channel 
3, and that worked.


Lon



Lon Price, Los Angeles

<[EMAIL PROTECTED] > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>








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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Lon Price]

On Jul 4, 2005, at 1:34 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:You will have to unstuff this file with the latest Stuffit Expander, error -12 seems to happen when a file is unstuffed with something else, at least here.JohannesI finally got the file to load, but the expressions don't seem to do anything.  I loaded the flute-piano multi and tried to get the flute to alternate between vib. and N.V.  Application of the GPO Key Switches didn't get any results.  I got it to work by creating two different flutes (vib. and N.V.) in the Instrument List.  Then I created my own expressions, assigning them to playback on different channels, as explained in the tutorial: Fl. vib. on channel 2 and Fl. N.V. on channel 3, and that worked.Lon  Lon Price, Los Angeles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   ___
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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Johannes Gebauer]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:


The GPO manual provides basic information, but as you've found out, 
you'll need more info.  Posting to a Finale discussion group that the 
GPO sounds worse than a soundfont won't solve your problem.  I'm 
assuming that you listened to GPO demos before purchasing.  Then you 
must have liked what you heard, or you wouldn't have bought it.


First of all, how about telling us who you are?

Secondly, I didn't say that GPO sounded worse than the soundfont, I said 
the solo strings sound worse than the soundfont, and even after playing 
around with all the keyswitches, I still think that. No it doesn't help, 
but I am entitled to an opinion, even if I am in the minority, and even 
if I am criticizing a product which seems to have some sort of "it's 
great" label affixed to it.


I did listen to the GPO demos, but the solo strings are not necessarily 
very prominent in the demos (there is actually a very misleading demo 
with solo violin, which turns out to be a live solo violin!).


As I said before, the orchestral samples are much better. Thank God I am 
not the only one who isn't happy with the solo strings.


I really don't like the tone of your post!

Johannes
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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Johannes Gebauer]

You will have to unstuff this file with the latest Stuffit Expander, 
error -12 seems to happen when a file is unstuffed with something else, 
at least here.


Johannes

Lon Price schrieb:


On Jul 3, 2005, at 12:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:




I provided the Keyswitch expression files on the GPO website.  For 
future reference, the one library file that you said was not useable 
for you, is not true.  It's a Finale text expression library in a text 
file format.  You can download to your HD.  When you want to load that 
library to a document, choose show "all files". It should load 
correctly.  If it doesn't download correctly it might be a browser 
problem.  



Just exactly where would I find this file?  The only one I found showed 
up as a Finale document, and would not load (error -12).


Thanks,

Lon



Lon Price, Los Angeles

<[EMAIL PROTECTED] > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>








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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[John Bell]

On 3 Jul 2005, at 23:45, Lon Price wrote:On Jul 3, 2005, at 12:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I provided the Keyswitch _expression_ files on the GPO website.   For future reference, the one library file that you said was not useable for you, is not true.   It's a Finale text _expression_ library in a text file format.   You can download to your HD.   When you want to load that library to a document, choose show "all files". It should load correctly.   If it doesn't download correctly it might be a browser problem.  Just exactly where would I find this file?  The only one I found showed up as a Finale document, and would not load (error -12).http://www.garritan.com/GPO-FinalePage.htmlFinale Programs submitted by Users:Finale KeySwitch Plug-In: "Try this one"That should get you the file GPOKeySwitches.libThen load the library (as mentioned, you have to choose to show "all files").Good luckJohn___
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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Lon Price]

On Jul 3, 2005, at 12:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I provided the Keyswitch _expression_ files on the GPO website.   For future reference, the one library file that you said was not useable for you, is not true.   It's a Finale text _expression_ library in a text file format.   You can download to your HD.   When you want to load that library to a document, choose show "all files". It should load correctly.   If it doesn't download correctly it might be a browser problem.  Just exactly where would I find this file?  The only one I found showed up as a Finale document, and would not load (error -12).Thanks,Lon  Lon Price, Los Angeles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   ___
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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[FinaleMAC]

On 02 Jul 2005, at 12:03 PM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

> Since GPO has been the subject on this list a lot recently, I would
> like to voice my own opinion: Not nearly as good as I hoped.
>
> I am particularly disappointed with the solo strings, which are in
> fact worse than Finale's own soundfont. I think I may go back to that,
> even putting up with the dreadfully out of tune violin, just because
> at least the sound is vaguely like a violin. GPO's solo strings don't
> seem to come even close to a natural solo string sound, or am I
> missing something? If I compare especially the cello with Finale's
> soundfont, the soundfont wins by a large margin.
>
> The ensemble sounds in GPO are much better, though I can't quite
> follow the hype.
>
> Johannes
> --
> http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
> http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de


Johannes,

I'm sure you've read posts by new Finale users, they just bought Finale but they don't understand why their music doesn't look like engraved music.   The answer is always that they've scratched the surface on what the tools can do, but it takes study to get elegant results.   The same is true for GPO.   Fortunately the learning curve doesn't take as long to learn as Finale does, but it does require study nonetheless.

The GPO manual provides basic information, but as you've found out, you'll need more info.   Posting to a Finale discussion group that the GPO sounds worse than a soundfont won't solve your problem.   I'm assuming that you listened to GPO demos before purchasing.   Then you must have liked what you heard, or you wouldn't have bought it.

There are people here who use GPO and will offer advice.   But go to Northern Sounds, that's where the experts are. Search the forum.   Post questions.   Most of the answers you'll need are already there.

If you string attacks are too slow, the first thing I'd do is increase the base key velocity in the Finale playback engine.

I provided the Keyswitch _expression_ files on the GPO website.   For future reference, the one library file that you said was not useable for you, is not true.   It's a Finale text _expression_ library in a text file format.   You can download to your HD.   When you want to load that library to a document, choose show "all files". It should load correctly.   If it doesn't download correctly it might be a browser problem.   

The GPO tutorials and help files have all been created by users who want to share their expertise with others.   As you work thru your problems and discover the solutions, I would suggest that you document your discoveries and post your experiences to the GPO forum.   Others will benefit from your lessons.

Good luck.


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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Darcy James Argue]

Hi Johannes,

If you can't get open the keyswitch library to open, email me and I'll 
send you my copy of the library.


I don't understand how the "playback data dump" stuff works either, but 
that's not necessary since the person who programmed the library has 
already done all the work for us, and it's very easy to duplicate or 
modify the expression with the correct playback parameters and make it 
look like the expression we want.  (Or just make it invisible.)


I don't see how adding keyswitching expressions to old expressions (or 
new pieces) would be especially difficult or confusing, but if there's 
something in particular you're confused about, let me know.  The most 
important thing to keep in mind is that you always need to specify an 
initial keyswitch expression at the beginning of the piece -- 
otherwise, the staff keeps using the most recently active keyswitch.


The quickest way to add keyswitching expressions to an older score is 
to make a set of invisible keyswitching expressions, assign them to 
metatools, and then go through your score adding them where necessary 
-- at every "pizz," "arco," "con sord," "senza sord," trill, tremolo, 
and detached passage.  Yes, this is time-consuming, but not THAT 
time-consuming (depending on how many of your old files you need to 
prepare for playback and how many expressions of this kind need to be 
accounted for).


. (I would have thought that Finale and GPO would play well enough 
together to know when a fast passage requires different articulation 
keyswitches.)


I believe keyswitched strings were only added to GPO after Finale 2005 
had already been released.


I also have been annoyed by a French baroque piece using a low B in 
the Cello part, which triggers a keyswitch in GPO and makes that file 
playback very strangely.


Yes, B is the trigger for whole step trills.


Badly thought out imo.


The keyswitches are designed for live performance, so it would be very 
inconvenient to put the cello keyswitches *two* octaves below the low C 
on the cello (i.e., below the lowest octave on the piano).


To get your cello low B to play back, you have to jump through a few 
hoops (I have to do the same thing when I want a low concert Bb from 
the bass clarinet).  First, create an invisible expression that drops 
the pitchwheel one semitone, and another one that returns the 
pitchwheel to zero.  Then, put the notes you want to print and display 
in a non-playback layer (I always make Layer 4 my non-playback layer).  
Then, copy the passage to Layer 1 but replace all of the low B's with 
C's and attach the "down semitone" pitchwheel expression to the ones 
you want to sound as B's -- and remember to use the "return to zero" 
expression on the note immediately following the low B.  Finally, hide 
the playback layer.


This is a pain, but not quite as much of a pain as I described, once 
you create your pitchwheel expressions and save them in a library.  
Alternatively, you could forget about the pitchwheel stuff and just 
bump all the low B's up the octave in the playback layer.


Even in a certain Haydn Symphony the violins tune the G string down a 
tone, if this was played back through GPO it would trigger the wrong 
keyswitches - making the file unusable for GPO.


Actually, it wouldn't, because the violin keyswitches begin at the same 
spot as the viola keyswitches (C2, not C3).  The F below the violin's 
low G (F3) isn't a keyswitch.



Couldn't they have put the KS's somewhere else?


As I said, they are designed for playability, so the string keyswitches 
always begin on the C in the octave below the lowest note on the 
instrument.  This makes it possible to play the entire range of the 
instrument *and* trigger keyswitches even on smaller MIDI keyboards.


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY

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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Johannes Gebauer]

Darcy James Argue schrieb:

Johannes,

You need to use the keyswitched instruments and download the library of 
keyswitching Finale expressions from the GPO website.  This makes it 
very easy to switch from legato, sustained articulations (default) to 
the "alternating bows" articulations (which you need for fast or 
detached passages).


It sounds like you might be happy using the "alternating bows" 
articulation exclusively.  If so, you just have to put an invisible 
keyswitching expression that triggers that style of articulation at the 
beginning of each part in your score.


This is really poorly documented on the Garritan site! It just took me 
about half an hour to find the file you seem to be talking about. It is 
labeled as a plugin, and the two download links lead to different files, 
one is a library file, which is completely useless on the Mac, and the 
other a Finale document. The latter one seems to be the one I need. Now, 
the problem is that the playback parameters of the expressions are a 
complete mystery to me, and I find it very hard to include any of this 
in my existing files. This is going to be an extremely lengthy process, 
which I am unwilling to deal with. I guess I will wait for 2k6 and hope 
that at least some of this will be handled automatically. (I would have 
thought that Finale and GPO would play well enough together to know when 
a fast passage requires different articulation keyswitches.)


I also have been annoyed by a French baroque piece using a low B in the 
Cello part, which triggers a keyswitch in GPO and makes that file 
playback very strangely. Badly thought out imo. Even in a certain Haydn 
Symphony the violins tune the G string down a tone, if this was played 
back through GPO it would trigger the wrong keyswitches - making the 
file unusable for GPO. Couldn't they have put the KS's somewhere else?


Johannes

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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[A-NO-NE Music]

I agree with the original poster and I gave the same comment the day I
received GPO.  Solo instruments are not usable, while ensemble is quite
good and usable.  Tho I was not instantiating in Finale but just
sequencing for my audition purpose.

I used to do MIDI orchestra sequencing for large chunk of my income so I
know what I am doing (why they use CC1 instead of CC11 by default was
something I was puzzled with).  After auditioning GPO, I had to go hack
to two of my K2600Rs those which take care of my needs.  I am also
waiting for MOTU Symphony Instrument VI to be released.  In general,
MOTU doesn't compromise the sound but costs the CPU hit so I have to see
if it is usable for my need.

By the way, it is true GPO sounds better when you listen with computer
speakers, but my setup is Genelec Active Monitor with sub via Metric
Halo 2882+DSP as the D/A Converter, which reveals details that can be
annoying when source is not descent :-(

But for the money I paid, I won't blame GPO :-)

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
 


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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[David W. Fenton]

On 2 Jul 2005 at 17:11, Darcy James Argue wrote:

> You need to use the keyswitched instruments and download the library
> of keyswitching Finale expressions from the GPO website.  This makes
> it very easy to switch from legato, sustained articulations (default)
> to the "alternating bows" articulations (which you need for fast or
> detached passages).
> 
> It sounds like you might be happy using the "alternating bows" 
> articulation exclusively.  If so, you just have to put an invisible
> keyswitching expression that triggers that style of articulation at
> the beginning of each part in your score.

Could someone put up an MP3 of a sample demonstration of some of 
these? I'm unable to use any of it because my PC is too old (500MHz, 
Win2K, 768MBs), but someday that won't be the case.

Ideally, a notation sample plus the MP3 would be ideal.

I'd be happy to supply a Finale file for creating the demo.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Darcy James Argue]

Johannes,

You need to use the keyswitched instruments and download the library of 
keyswitching Finale expressions from the GPO website.  This makes it 
very easy to switch from legato, sustained articulations (default) to 
the "alternating bows" articulations (which you need for fast or 
detached passages).


It sounds like you might be happy using the "alternating bows" 
articulation exclusively.  If so, you just have to put an invisible 
keyswitching expression that triggers that style of articulation at the 
beginning of each part in your score.


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


On 02 Jul 2005, at 4:59 PM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

I am listening with headphones or occasionally speakers. I am not sure 
how you get much benefit from the variety of bow strokes in Finale. My 
main problem is that fast notes simply don't work well at all, there 
is not enough attack on each note, too lush for using them in a string 
quartet or similar. And the sound of the solo strings just doesn't 
remind me much of solo strings at all.


Perhaps I would have to spend more time on the Finale files, but 
that's precisely what I hoped to avoid with GPO.


Johannes

Darcy James Argue schrieb:

Wow.  I don't agree with that at all.
I do feel the solo violins in GPO are not as strong as they could be, 
but they are still far, far superior to the one in Finale's 
soundfont.  And while the soundfont cello is adequate, I don't think 
it holds a candle to the GPO cello.  And, of course, nothing in 
Finale's sound font can compare to the variety of articulations and 
bow strokes and playing techniques in the GPO sample set.
What are your specific problems with the GPO instruments?  And how 
are you listening to them?  (Headphones, internal speaker, external 
speakers... )

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY
On 02 Jul 2005, at 12:03 PM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:
Since GPO has been the subject on this list a lot recently, I would 
like to voice my own opinion: Not nearly as good as I hoped.


I am particularly disappointed with the solo strings, which are in 
fact worse than Finale's own soundfont. I think I may go back to 
that, even putting up with the dreadfully out of tune violin, just 
because at least the sound is vaguely like a violin. GPO's solo 
strings don't seem to come even close to a natural solo string 
sound, or am I missing something? If I compare especially the cello 
with Finale's soundfont, the soundfont wins by a large margin.


The ensemble sounds in GPO are much better, though I can't quite 
follow the hype.


Johannes
--
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http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de
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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Johannes Gebauer]

I am listening with headphones or occasionally speakers. I am not sure 
how you get much benefit from the variety of bow strokes in Finale. My 
main problem is that fast notes simply don't work well at all, there is 
not enough attack on each note, too lush for using them in a string 
quartet or similar. And the sound of the solo strings just doesn't 
remind me much of solo strings at all.


Perhaps I would have to spend more time on the Finale files, but that's 
precisely what I hoped to avoid with GPO.


Johannes

Darcy James Argue schrieb:

Wow.  I don't agree with that at all.

I do feel the solo violins in GPO are not as strong as they could be, 
but they are still far, far superior to the one in Finale's soundfont.  
And while the soundfont cello is adequate, I don't think it holds a 
candle to the GPO cello.  And, of course, nothing in Finale's sound font 
can compare to the variety of articulations and bow strokes and playing 
techniques in the GPO sample set.


What are your specific problems with the GPO instruments?  And how are 
you listening to them?  (Headphones, internal speaker, external 
speakers... )


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


On 02 Jul 2005, at 12:03 PM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

Since GPO has been the subject on this list a lot recently, I would 
like to voice my own opinion: Not nearly as good as I hoped.


I am particularly disappointed with the solo strings, which are in 
fact worse than Finale's own soundfont. I think I may go back to that, 
even putting up with the dreadfully out of tune violin, just because 
at least the sound is vaguely like a violin. GPO's solo strings don't 
seem to come even close to a natural solo string sound, or am I 
missing something? If I compare especially the cello with Finale's 
soundfont, the soundfont wins by a large margin.


The ensemble sounds in GPO are much better, though I can't quite 
follow the hype.


Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de
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Re: [Finale] GPO - a little disappointing

[Darcy James Argue]

Wow.  I don't agree with that at all.

I do feel the solo violins in GPO are not as strong as they could be, 
but they are still far, far superior to the one in Finale's soundfont.  
And while the soundfont cello is adequate, I don't think it holds a 
candle to the GPO cello.  And, of course, nothing in Finale's sound 
font can compare to the variety of articulations and bow strokes and 
playing techniques in the GPO sample set.


What are your specific problems with the GPO instruments?  And how are 
you listening to them?  (Headphones, internal speaker, external 
speakers... )


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


On 02 Jul 2005, at 12:03 PM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

Since GPO has been the subject on this list a lot recently, I would 
like to voice my own opinion: Not nearly as good as I hoped.


I am particularly disappointed with the solo strings, which are in 
fact worse than Finale's own soundfont. I think I may go back to that, 
even putting up with the dreadfully out of tune violin, just because 
at least the sound is vaguely like a violin. GPO's solo strings don't 
seem to come even close to a natural solo string sound, or am I 
missing something? If I compare especially the cello with Finale's 
soundfont, the soundfont wins by a large margin.


The ensemble sounds in GPO are much better, though I can't quite 
follow the hype.


Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de
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