Re: [Finale] LONG - SORRY - Performance/recording
On Jan 30, 2005, at 12:10 PM, John Howell wrote: We're talking about 2 different art forms here. Live performance is one, and recording is another. No we're not. Music is an art form. Jazz is a genre. Live performance is a *medium*. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] LONG - SORRY - Performance/recording
Amen ... well spake. Robert Shaw would be proud of you. And, this is a great example of why I sign my posts in the manner I do. Dean M. Estabrook (One of three trombonists in our local symphony orchestra) On Jan 29, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: Sorry -- this slipped out of my hands incomplete a few minutes ago; here's the whole thing: Wow. If it's just about 'getting it right' then we can all go home. No live performance - no CD, no matter how many takes it's been mastered from -- no account can ever be perfectly perfectly dead-on absolutely-as-it-can-be right-on-the-money perfect. Or -- merely be'gottenright.' But that's not really what it's all about, at least not in my book. I moved my family here - Mariposa, Ca, just outside Yosemite National Park - from Manhattan in 2001 after an onstage accident which ended my career as an actor. Manhattan, LA, London etc for 20-some years. The smorgasboard of the Arts. But you all know that; many of you still live in Manhattan. Or LA or London. Or Boston or DC or Paris or Toronto or any of the other great cities with a huge variety of live performances from which to choose. Andsomy wife and I decided - with retirement at age 44 and nothing but time on our hands - that this area (which we knew well from our travels) was where we wanted to raise our young son. I've got a community here (and I hate to generalize, but why not?) which -- for the most part -- was in many ways musically naive before I put together this little community orchestra of 50. Really -- it's very rural; many old-time families whose genealogy traces theirantecedents back 150 yearsto the gold rush days (time immemorial for California) and in many ways this area hasn't been overwhelmed byprogress. There's of course influence from outside; I mean they do got real runnin' water and indoor plumbin', but there wasn't much -- if anything in theway of live classical performances. Sure -- they've heard of LPs and CDs and the Tee Vee and all that, but: as a newcomer to this areaI was warned prior to our first concert to expect a very small turnout. Our home theatre (built in 1937 as a WPA project) seats 400; but guess what? The tickets were sold out almost as soon as they went on sale with a huge SRO contingent -- and every concert since that first one in December 2002 has been the same. Becausemaybe for some a recording is just good enough -- particularly one which just somehow 'gets it right' but that's not good enough for me. For some that amazing experience of coming together to hear LIVE music played by live performers -- even if they're not the most accomplished or experienced performers capable of 'getting it right' is better than a glossy, sumptuousCD of of a live performance which, once captured, is really -- dead. How does the orchestra sound? Well, they've grown enormously in the past two years from the 11-year-oldfirst violinist to the 80-year old second; I've just gotten (finally) TWO trombones (from a town 45 minutes away with its own'professional' orchestra comprised of ringers brought in from three hours away.) If I could only find a reliable bassoonist I'd really be in business; until then I'll keep my bass clarinetist busy, indeed. Butyou know what? We've got an audience that doesn't care if there aren't really 50 strings and 8 horns; they come for the special experience of hearing live music. And we're not just talking about locals comingtohear Uncle Howard or cousin Isabel; we're developing an audience from far outside our area with few - if any - ties to our players. Or me. I am still overwhelmed with the change that has happened here -- people have begun to know the difference between Beethoven and Tchaikovsky, to find that they may prefer Mozart toVivaldi, that Dvorak's name is really pronounced that way and he wrote something other than that 'Goin' Home' song? Guess what? They're getting hip! They're getting informed -- and they're getting really really fascinated by this music. Evenm though it's just live, imperfect, and they sometimes forget and clap between movements. But I don't mind. That shows me how much they're enjoying the experience.That and the touchdown cheers at the ends of concerts and the lines of people with questions and the fact that there's actually a palpable buzz for a few days after each concert: 'did you hear how beautiful that --' 'I had no idea she could play like --' 'I wonder what else he wrote?' Yeah, I love CDs; I've got CDs coming out my ears;I've got all the Bruckner Symphonies on CD -- and not just all nine plus 0 and 00 - I've got 'em ALL in ALL thevarious versions! Schalk, Lwe, Haas, originals; if it's been recorded, I've got it. Anyone else know the recorded works of Heraclius Djabadary?Interesting stuff! I love CDs!But -- for me -- they're ultimately a great reference tool and documents of a performancebut as a communicative art form: dead.
Re: [Finale] LONG - SORRY - Performance/recording
At 8:17 PM -0800 1/29/05, Les Marsden wrote, with feeling!: Yeah, I love CDs; I've got CDs coming out my ears; I've got all the Bruckner Symphonies on CD -- and not just all nine plus 0 and 00 - I've got 'em ALL in ALL the various versions! Schalk, Löwe, Haas, originals; if it's been recorded, I've got it. Anyone else know the recorded works of Heraclius Djabadary? Interesting stuff! I love CDs! But -- for me -- they're ultimately a great reference tool and documents of a performance but as a communicative art form: dead. Once magic has been captured, it's no longer magic. Beautiful post, Les. THANK YOU!! I've been waiting for someone else to say this, and maybe I missed it, BUT ... We're talking about 2 different art forms here. Live performance is one, and recording is another. They have different goals, they require different approaches, and they require different kinds of performers. So far the discussion has been about me, me, ME! What I like. What I value. What I prefer. How about turning this around and looking at it from the performers' point of view. In my personal experience, live performance and recording became separated during the 1960s. There were a bunch of reasons for it. At the beginning of the '60s, our manager would not allow my group--The Four Saints--to record anything in the studio that could not be done in person. No studio effects, no added English horns, no overtracking additional voices. The mindset was that a recording was an echo of a performance, and the audience should be able to listen to it and have a mental picture of that performance. Recordings were souvenirs and reminders of the living experience. We were entertainers, working in pop music, and that's where the change in mindset first showed up. And I'll hazard a guess that for mainstream classical performers, that mindset is still what controls what is recorded and how it is recorded. Then came the Beatles. Not only were they phenomenally successful, but their very success drove them off the live stage. The audio technology did not then exist to let them hear themselves over the sound of screaming teenage girls, and they responded by no longer performing live but becoming perhaps the first of the studio-only bands. (Not counting here the studio musicians who worked together in many studios in LA, NYC, and Nashville, but were always contracted separately, or the fantastic Sauter-Finnegan band.) And in the studio, starting with the Sgt. Pepper album, they reinvented the album as a new art form, not just a collection of individual songs but an organic whole. And then came the Monkeys, intended from the very beginning to be a studio-only group, never intended to tour or perform live, although they did have to put together a touring band. And then came the new techniques of tape editing (already experimented with in experimental art music including musique concrete and electronic studios), and the first generation of transportable Moog synthesizers, and equipment making early overtracking possible (also already done, as when Heifetz recorded the Bach Double playing with himself), and the whole concept of multiple tracks (Wow! Three separate tracks to work with! Who woulda thought?!!!). And an elderly E. Power Biggs could have his late albums pieced together literally one note at a time. And Glen Gould could produce albums much more perfect than he could actually play, making his recording engineer a partner in the process. In other words, by 1970 the tools necessary to make studio recording a new and separate art form were being developed, just as the tools necessary to make live performance at high sound pressure levels possible were being developed. And the mindset had changed forever, at least in the pop world, so that the goal had become to recreate in live performance what had been done in the studio. OK, I mentioned needing two different kinds of performers. Two different mindsets. A live perfomer--and I'm thinking in the art music world now, not the pop world--has to be able to create a NEW performance every time, not just recreate the same one over and over. The weather makes a difference, the temperature makes a difference, the acoustics of a new hall makes a difference, and most of all each different audience makes a difference. Music is one of the recreative arts. It depends on the composer to provide the blueprint, it depends on the performer(s) to recreate the sonic work of art from that blueprint, and it depends on the audience members to react to that work of art. Theater is also a recreative art, as is dance. The actor or the dancer must be able to recreate each work and make it fresh and new every time, as if it had just been conceived at that moment. It will be different each time, inevitably, and that's part of the art of music, theater, or dance. So what's
Re: [Finale] LONG - SORRY - Performance/recording
At 12:10 PM 1/30/05 -0500, John Howell wrote: Canned, synthesized orchestra?Interesting concept -- for some sort of necrophilharmonic. Oh Les, I LOVE that word!!! Well done! Hey! Those must be orchestras who play DWEM stuff, because necrosones are their listeners. Reference my essay from 1992, Its Time to Bury the Dead at http://maltedmedia.com/books/papers/s5-necro.html :) Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] LONG - SORRY - Performance/recording
Really interesting and excellentessay, Dennis -- and please don't read a single iota of irony intomy statement. You make some rather fascinating pronouncements, such as your premise that (and I quote:) "Contemporary schlock of any genre (even music as tune, jingle, hook or word-painting) has as much or more to say to us than does Mozart." Really? Merely citing your quote will do, arguments to the contrary are probably flowing with fecundity through the minds of anyone even as cerebrally-feeble as myself.I was also taken by your line - with your own italics, not mine: "Music of our own time" does not refer exclusively to the so-called avant-garde or some sort of groundbreaking "new music." It means, quite simply, any music newly composed, whether or not that music is old-fashioned or newfangled. It is unarguable that contemporary culture makes its way into newly composed music (even by those such as Sorabji, who would pretend to be a hermit), and it is contemporaneity -- the continuum informed by tradition but born in the present -- that is the subject here. Am I to interpret that philosophy to mean that if I were to (say)write a work completely in the 'old-fashioned'idiom, formal structure and utter sound of the Brahms Fourthand call it "Music of our own time" simply because it was newly written by me -- it would meet your criteria by being of worthy value? And would therefore be sanctioned by you as being performable? Inarguably? Conversely, if a new work of mine is not old-fashioned, but breaks down all doors and is a true, avant-garde masterwork? What's the statute of limitations before it -- and I become a mere not-to-be-performed DW(A)M and my work is then never to be performed again, ever ever ever? My death? And if I were to die tomorrow, what then? The work is merely a day old and yet I -- I am a dead composer of the past! What then? Hhm.Please don't mis-interpret my reaction; again - in response I findyour piece to beabsolutely fascinating. ButI can only respond withmy premise of: thesis/antithesis -- perhaps the outcome needs to rest on synthesis. I hope to not be glib in interpreting your argument thus: you seem to believe in throwing out the baby exclusivelybecause it's older than the bathwater. We differ; I believe in keeping both and seeing how the kid grows up.You argue that we must simply break the shackles of all music from the past simply because it was written by DWEM. Toss it all; play only music by theL(iving)R(ainbow-complecked)U(universally-geographically-distributed)N(on)-S(exually)-C(ategorizable) or: LRUN-S-C. Play their music exclusively because it's by LRUN-S-C but notbecause any other criteria, such as if it communicates, if it is of somewhat more- than-narrow artistic value, if -- it's -- (uh-oh) good. I'll keep programming music by whomever, written wheneverif -- it's -- (uh-oh) good. Who gets to decide what's good? Easy! ME. You want to decide what's good? Great!! Play your idea of good, create an ensemble and have them play your good, and have a great time! If old is good, GREAT! If new is good, GREAT! And if someone can pry me away from my font key, even better. Best, Les Les MarsdenFounding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony OrchestraMusic and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.htmlhttp://www.sierratel.com/mcf/nprc/mso.htm - Original Message - From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] LONG - SORRY - Performance/recording At 12:10 PM 1/30/05 -0500, John Howell wrote:Canned, synthesized orchestra? Interesting concept -- for some sort of necrophilharmonic.Oh Les, I LOVE that word!!! Well done!Hey! Those must be orchestras who play DWEM stuff, because "necrosones" aretheir listeners. Reference my essay from 1992, "It's Time to Bury the Dead"at http://maltedmedia.com/books/papers/s5-necro.html :)Dennis___Finale mailing listFinale@shsu.eduhttp://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[off list] Re: [Finale] LONG - SORRY - Performance/recording
At 01:47 PM 1/30/05 -0800, you wrote: Really interesting and excellent essay But from *1992*, and written for its s(c)h(l)ock value. Published in one of Vermont's dailies. :) D ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [off list] Re: [Finale] LONG - SORRY - Performance/recording
No no no no !!! I got that and I really did appreciate what you were saying -- a broadside AGAINST those who ONLY program the old. I didn't take it as absolutely literal -- I was correct in my assumption, wasn't I?? I do enjoy your take-no-prisoners approach in this and much else of what you have to say onList, Dennis! Best, Les Les MarsdenFounding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony OrchestraMusic and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.htmlhttp://www.sierratel.com/mcf/nprc/mso.htm - Original Message - From: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 1:54 PM Subject: [off list] Re: [Finale] LONG - SORRY - Performance/recording At 01:47 PM 1/30/05 -0800, you wrote:Really interesting and excellent essayBut from *1992*, and written for its s(c)h(l)ock value. Published in one ofVermont's dailies. :)D___Finale mailing listFinale@shsu.eduhttp://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [off list] Re: [Finale] LONG - SORRY - Performance/recording
That was stupid. Apologies for posting the thing on list! Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] LONG - SORRY - Performance/recording
On Jan 30, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: And if someone can pry me away from my font key, even better. Best, Les Heh, heh! I was going to say something, but as long as you mentioned it... 8-) Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] LONG - SORRY - Performance/recording
Sorry -- this slipped out of my hands incomplete a few minutes ago; here's the whole thing: Wow. If it's just about 'getting it right' then we can all go home. No live performance - no CD, no matter how many takes it's been mastered from -- no account can ever be perfectly perfectly dead-on absolutely-as-it-can-be right-on-the-money perfect. Or -- merely be'gottenright.' But that's not really what it's all about, at least not in my book. I moved my family here - Mariposa, Ca, just outside Yosemite National Park - from Manhattan in 2001 after an onstage accident which ended my career as an actor. Manhattan, LA, London etc for 20-some years. The smorgasboard of the Arts. But you all know that; many of you still live in Manhattan. Or LA or London. Or Boston or DC or Paris or Toronto or any of the other great cities with a huge variety of live performances from which to choose. Andsomy wife and I decided - with retirement at age 44 and nothing but time on our hands - that this area (which we knew well from our travels) was where we wanted to raise our young son. I've got a community here (and I hate to generalize, but why not?) which -- for the most part -- was in many ways musically naive before I put together this little community orchestra of 50. Really -- it's very rural; many old-time families whose genealogy traces theirantecedents back 150 yearsto the gold rush days (time immemorial for California) and in many ways this area hasn't been overwhelmed byprogress. There's of course influence from outside; I mean they do got real runnin' water and indoor plumbin', but there wasn't much -- if anything in theway of live classical performances. Sure -- they've heard of LPs and CDs and the Tee Vee and all that, but: as a newcomer to this areaI was warned prior to our first concert to expect a very small turnout. Our home theatre (built in 1937 as a WPA project) seats 400; but guess what? The tickets were sold out almost as soon as they went on sale with a huge SRO contingent -- and every concert since that first one in December 2002 has been the same. Becausemaybe for some a recording is just good enough -- particularly one which just somehow 'gets it right' but that's not good enough for me. For some that amazing experience of coming together to hear LIVE music played by live performers -- even if they're not the most accomplished or experienced performers capable of 'getting it right' is better than a glossy, sumptuousCD of of a live performance which, once captured, is really -- dead. How does the orchestra sound? Well, they've grown enormously in the past two years from the 11-year-oldfirst violinist to the 80-year old second; I've just gotten (finally) TWO trombones (from a town 45 minutes away with its own'professional' orchestra comprised of ringers brought in from three hours away.) If I could only find a reliable bassoonist I'd really be in business; until then I'll keep my bass clarinetist busy, indeed. Butyou know what? We've got an audience that doesn't care if there aren't really 50 strings and 8 horns; they come for the special experience of hearing live music. And we're not just talking about locals comingtohear Uncle Howard or cousin Isabel; we're developing an audience from far outside our area with few - if any - ties to our players. Or me. I am still overwhelmed with the change that has happened here -- people have begun to know the difference between Beethoven and Tchaikovsky, to find that they may prefer Mozart toVivaldi, that Dvorak's name is really pronounced that way and he wrote something other than that 'Goin' Home' song? Guess what? They're getting hip! They're getting informed -- and they're getting really really fascinated by this music. Evenm though it's just live, imperfect, and they sometimes forget and clap between movements. But I don't mind. That shows me how much they're enjoying the experience.That and the touchdown cheers at the ends of concerts and the lines of people with questions and the fact that there's actually a palpable buzz for a few days after each concert: 'did you hear how beautiful that --' 'I had no idea she could play like --' 'I wonder what else he wrote?' Yeah, I love CDs; I've got CDs coming out my ears;I've got all the Bruckner Symphonies on CD -- and not just all nine plus "0" and "00" - I've got 'em ALL in ALL thevarious versions! Schalk, Löwe, Haas, originals; if it's been recorded, I've got it. Anyone else know the recorded works of Heraclius Djabadary?Interesting stuff! I love CDs!But -- for me -- they're ultimately a great reference tool and documents of a performancebut as a communicative art form: dead. Once magic has been captured, it's no longer magic. Canned, synthesized orchestra? Interesting concept -- for some sort of necrophilharmonic. Which is why I'm damned proud when my unions - Actors' Equity, SAG, AFTRA -- stand in unity against anyone trying to do
