Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
The only Dutch word that I know for roll is broodje, but I do not think that that is what you are looking for here. Aaron J. Rabushka arabus...@austin.rr.com - Original Message - From: Barbara Touburg btoub...@wanadoo.nl To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Trumpet question Williams, Jim wrote: Barbara, A roll is een inrollen van je onderlip--dwz, je trekt je onderlip over je ondertanden. Sommige trompeters doen dat om in het hoger register te spelen, maar zo'n techniek is niet aanbevolen...zoals de auteur (leraar) zei...je lippen worden er snel moe van. Hee, wat leuk, in het Nederlands. Weet je toevallig de Nederlandse term voor roll? Hey, that's nice, in Dutch. Do you happen to know the Dutch term for roll? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
Probably means flutter tongue. On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 6:30 AM, Barbara Touburg btoub...@wanadoo.nlwrote: Dear all, What does it mean if a trumpet player gets a roll? Something about his embrochure? Barbara ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
Could be fluttertongue, growl, or alternate fingering tremolo -- but most likely fluttertongue if no other information is specified. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 20 Jul 2010, at 12:23 PM, Ryan wrote: Probably means flutter tongue. On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 6:30 AM, Barbara Touburg btoub...@wanadoo.nlwrote: Dear all, What does it mean if a trumpet player gets a roll? Something about his embrochure? Barbara ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
John Howell wrote: Never heard or came across the term. Do you have a context for it? John Sorry, accidentally hit the Send button. Yes, I have a context. It's in a movie about a trumpet player based on the life of Bix Beiderbecke. His teacher warns him: You're getting a roll, not bad yet, but on the way. You're dropping your mouthpiece too low on your lower lip. Once you get that roll, it closes up your lips and gives you a choked feeling in your throat and you get tired after a half hour of steady playing. The trumpet player is developing a bad habit in his technique. I'm looking for a proper translation into Dutch for the term roll. I'd be very happy if you had one! Barbara ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
John Howell wrote: Never heard or came across the term. Do you have a context for it? John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
At 7:29 PM +0200 7/20/10, Barbara Touburg wrote: John Howell wrote: Never heard or came across the term. Do you have a context for it? John Sorry, accidentally hit the Send button. Yes, I have a context. It's in a movie about a trumpet player based on the life of Bix Beiderbecke. His teacher warns him: You're getting a roll, not bad yet, but on the way. You're dropping your mouthpiece too low on your lower lip. Once you get that roll, it closes up your lips and gives you a choked feeling in your throat and you get tired after a half hour of steady playing. The trumpet player is developing a bad habit in his technique. I'm looking for a proper translation into Dutch for the term roll. I'd be very happy if you had one! In that case yes, it's definitely an embouchure matter and nothing to do with a specific special effect like flutter tonguing. It's referring to the placement of the mouthpiece on the lips, and the proportion of it that is on each lip. Modern teaching is that more upper lip should be within the mouthpiece than lower lip (which used to be the case only for horn, but now appears to be applied to all brass instruments), which means that most of the vibration comes from the upper lip, and that's obviously what the character in the movie is saying. I can't think of an English term for that, but there's a German term--ansetzen or einsetzen--that refers to it, I believe. If you know a horn teacher, ask. I'm sure there has to be a Dutch term for it. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Trumpet question
Barbara, A roll is een inrollen van je onderlip--dwz, je trekt je onderlip over je ondertanden. Sommige trompeters doen dat om in het hoger register te spelen, maar zo'n techniek is niet aanbevolen...zoals de auteur (leraar) zei...je lippen worden er snel moe van. A roll is a rolling-in of one's lower lip--you pull your lower lip over your lower teeth. Some trumpeters do that in order to play in the higher register, but such a technique is not recommended...as the author (teacher) said...your lips quickly tire that way. Jim W. From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of John Howell [john.how...@vt.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 1:18 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Trumpet question At 3:30 PM +0200 7/20/10, Barbara Touburg wrote: Dear all, What does it mean if a trumpet player gets a roll? Something about his embrochure? Never heard or came across the term. Do you have a context for it? John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Trumpet question
2. deel... Een trompeter krijgt een inrolling van de onderlip ook als z/hij de mondstuck te stevig tegen de lippen/tanden drukt, wat er al te vaak gebeurt bij 't spelen in 't hoge register. Jim...(die z'n embouchure [op euphonium] nooit verzet) Williams Part 2... A trumpeter gets a rolling-in of the lower lip also if s/he presses the mouthpiece too hard against the lips (teeth), which happens all too frequently when playing in the upper register. Jim (who never shifts his euphonium embouchure) Williams From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of John Howell [john.how...@vt.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 1:18 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Trumpet question At 3:30 PM +0200 7/20/10, Barbara Touburg wrote: Dear all, What does it mean if a trumpet player gets a roll? Something about his embrochure? Never heard or came across the term. Do you have a context for it? John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
Williams, Jim wrote: Barbara, A roll is een inrollen van je onderlip--dwz, je trekt je onderlip over je ondertanden. Sommige trompeters doen dat om in het hoger register te spelen, maar zo'n techniek is niet aanbevolen...zoals de auteur (leraar) zei...je lippen worden er snel moe van. Hee, wat leuk, in het Nederlands. Weet je toevallig de Nederlandse term voor roll? Hey, that's nice, in Dutch. Do you happen to know the Dutch term for roll? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Trumpet question
geen flauw idee...not the faintest idea! I *believe* there is a site called trompet.nl waar je misschien zo'n vraag kon stellen. From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Barbara Touburg [btoub...@wanadoo.nl] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 2:23 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Trumpet question Williams, Jim wrote: Barbara, A roll is een inrollen van je onderlip--dwz, je trekt je onderlip over je ondertanden. Sommige trompeters doen dat om in het hoger register te spelen, maar zo'n techniek is niet aanbevolen...zoals de auteur (leraar) zei...je lippen worden er snel moe van. Hee, wat leuk, in het Nederlands. Weet je toevallig de Nederlandse term voor roll? Hey, that's nice, in Dutch. Do you happen to know the Dutch term for roll? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
On Tue Jul 20, at TuesdayJul 20 1:29 PM, Barbara Touburg wrote: John Howell wrote: Never heard or came across the term. Do you have a context for it? John Sorry, accidentally hit the Send button. Yes, I have a context. It's in a movie about a trumpet player based on the life of Bix Beiderbecke. His teacher warns him: You're getting a roll, not bad yet, but on the way. You're dropping your mouthpiece too low on your lower lip. Once you get that roll, it closes up your lips and gives you a choked feeling in your throat and you get tired after a half hour of steady playing. The trumpet player is developing a bad habit in his technique. I'm looking for a proper translation into Dutch for the term roll. I'd be very happy if you had one! Barbara Oh, we all thought it was a triple-slash through the stem, like a snare drum roll! What is being talked about here is the need to roll the lips in a bit to form an embouchure, not pucker like you are going to kiss someone. Kind of like the difference between mouthing the letter M (correct) and the letter O (generally considered to be, well, less correct. This philosophy has changed somewhat over the years.) The top and bottom of the rim of the mouthpiece should rest on the skin, not the pink of the lips. If you overdo it, then you end up jamming too much lower lip into the mouthpiece and it requires too much air pressure to play. This is what is being warned against in the dialogue you quoted. Hope this helps. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
Williams, Jim wrote: geen flauw idee...not the faintest idea! I *believe* there is a site called trompet.nl waar je misschien zo'n vraag kon stellen. Dat klopt. Hoe komt het dat je Nederlands spreekt en Nederlandse sites kent? We zijn maar een piepklein landje! :) I went to that site - yes, it exists - and posed the question there. As soon as I get an answer, I'll report back here. Btw, the movie is iYoung Man with a Horn/i (1940) with Michael Douglas. Love the music. It's what I grew up with, besides the (what we call) the iron reportoire of classical music. Anyone want the subtitles for it? Just download the movie and holler, I'll send them. Greetings and thanks, again! Barbara ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
From discussions with horn players I think the translation of einsetzen (old style) and ansetzen (considered more modern as it allows for wider rims furthering endurance) is quite simply inset and onset embouchure. I use the inset embouchure on horn and Wagner tuba, as setting the edge of the narrow rim in the red of my lower lip. The benefit is about always using the exact same reference point for the mouthpiece, which furthers control. It may be legend, but the followers of this concept believe they get a truer horn sound. This set of concepts, in or on, has nothing to do with rolling the lower lip over the lower incisors. That rather is one of the common bad habits in non-educated brass playing. Klaus --- On Tue, 7/20/10, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: From: John Howell john.how...@vt.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Trumpet question To: finale@shsu.edu Date: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 7:56 PM At 7:29 PM +0200 7/20/10, Barbara Touburg wrote: John Howell wrote: Never heard or came across the term. Do you have a context for it? John Sorry, accidentally hit the Send button. Yes, I have a context. It's in a movie about a trumpet player based on the life of Bix Beiderbecke. His teacher warns him: You're getting a roll, not bad yet, but on the way. You're dropping your mouthpiece too low on your lower lip. Once you get that roll, it closes up your lips and gives you a choked feeling in your throat and you get tired after a half hour of steady playing. The trumpet player is developing a bad habit in his technique. I'm looking for a proper translation into Dutch for the term roll. I'd be very happy if you had one! In that case yes, it's definitely an embouchure matter and nothing to do with a specific special effect like flutter tonguing. It's referring to the placement of the mouthpiece on the lips, and the proportion of it that is on each lip. Modern teaching is that more upper lip should be within the mouthpiece than lower lip (which used to be the case only for horn, but now appears to be applied to all brass instruments), which means that most of the vibration comes from the upper lip, and that's obviously what the character in the movie is saying. I can't think of an English term for that, but there's a German term--ansetzen or einsetzen--that refers to it, I believe. If you know a horn teacher, ask. I'm sure there has to be a Dutch term for it. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
On 7/20/2010 6:30 AM, Barbara Touburg wrote: Dear all, What does it mean if a trumpet player gets a roll? Something about his embrochure? Barbara In my 40+ years playing, it means lunch. cd -- http://members.cox.net/dershem/index.html http://dershem.livejournal.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
On 7/20/2010 10:29 AM, Barbara Touburg wrote: John Howell wrote: Never heard or came across the term. Do you have a context for it? John Yes, I have a context. It's in a movie about a trumpet player based on the life of Bix Beiderbecke. His teacher warns him: You're getting a roll, not bad yet, but on the way. You're dropping your mouthpiece too low on your lower lip. Once you get that roll, it closes up your lips and gives you a choked feeling in your throat and you get tired after a half hour of steady playing. The trumpet player is developing a bad habit in his technique. I'm looking for a proper translation into Dutch for the term roll. I'd be very happy if you had one! Barbara Ah. That makes more sense. If you roll your lip in (or out), it will affect your embouchure. Imagine playing with a severe 'pout' to your lips, and using the part further and further in (or out) of the usual placement. I hope that allows you to find a context for translation. cd --- http://members.cox.net/dershem/index.html http://dershem.livejournal.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
At 18:23 22.09.2009 -0400, John Howell wrote: I really hesitate to disagree with Howard on a technical point, since he's played the instruments, but my understanding is a little different. The vent holes (as he properly calls them) are not big enough to actually throw the instrument into a different key, as the later keyed bugle and keyed trumpet did. Instead they just stabilize specific nodes in the tubing, making certain notes more stable. You could be right on that. I'm a trombonist, but I used to play the lower trumpet parts on a natural trumpet without vent holes. The trumpet shown in the famous portrait of Gottfried Reiche, Bach's trumpeter in Leipzig, is of this tightly coiled type, although I don't think the portrait shows whether or not it had vent holes. The portrait doesn't show any vent holes. There actually was a trumpet in the Leipzig (or Berlin?) collection that was very similar to the one in the Reiche portrait, but it was destroyed in WWII. Reproductions of such coiled trumpets have been in use since the late 1950s/early 1960s. Recently a friend of mine attempted a reconstruction based on photos of the lost instrument. He was very happy with the results and even used it in several performances of the 2nd Brandenburg with La Petite Bande. According to his own report, everybody was flabbergasted at how well the solo instruments balanced -- for the first time. But in any case, yes, that's exactly what you observed. With the longer natural trumpet I don't think vent holes were used, because reaching them would have been more difficult, although the modern instrument Immer is playing obviously does have them. It's also pretty strong for the other three solo instruments, of course, with no recording studio trickery evident. (But man, that's one heck of a band! And a nice ballroom, to boot.) I've heard the FBO play the 2nd Brandenburg live a couple times. They really don't need any recording studio trickery to do it. Howard (in Freiburg) -- Howard Weiner h.wei...@online.de [1]http://howard-weiner.de/ Tosca jumped to a conclusion. References 1. http://howard-weiner.de/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
At 9:06 PM +0200 9/22/09, Howard Weiner wrote: At 19:57 22.09.2009 +0200, Barbara Touburg wrote: On Youtube there are clips of the Brandenburg concertos by the Freiburg Baroque. In this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jtk4ETAx8g the trumpet player moves his right hand fingers in a special way. What does he to? Are there tiny holes in the tube? That's Friedemann Immer and he using a Baroque trumpet with vent holes. A natural trumpet, i.e., one without vent holes, only provides the notes of the harmonic series, of which several are rather out of tune and/or instable. Opening a vent hole (there are generally three) basically puts the instrument in a different key with a different harmonic series, thus providing other possibilities for playing the otherwise out-of-tune or instable notes. Unfortunately, the extra security that the vent holes provide also make it possible for trumpeters to play louder than they otherwise could on the old trumpets. In recent years, a number of European trumpet players, above all Jean-Francois Madeuf, have started playing without holes with increasing success. I really hesitate to disagree with Howard on a technical point, since he's played the instruments, but my understanding is a little different. The vent holes (as he properly calls them) are not big enough to actually throw the instrument into a different key, as the later keyed bugle and keyed trumpet did. Instead they just stabilize specific nodes in the tubing, making certain notes more stable. (That would be easy enough to test, if I had an instrument in my hands, since there would either be a different harmonic series or there would not be. I've played a keyed trumpet, but never a coiled trumpet with vent holes.) The trumpet shown in the famous portrait of Gottfried Reiche, Bach's trumpeter in Leipzig, is of this tightly coiled type, although I don't think the portrait shows whether or not it had vent holes. But in any case, yes, that's exactly what you observed. With the longer natural trumpet I don't think vent holes were used, because reaching them would have been more difficult, although the modern instrument Immer is playing obviously does have them. It's also pretty strong for the other three solo instruments, of course, with no recording studio trickery evident. (But man, that's one heck of a band! And a nice ballroom, to boot.) Of course the mystery of the proper instrument for Brandenburg 2 remains. There's no theoretical reason why a trumpet in high F couldn't have been built, but I don't believe anything similar has survived, and I don't think there's any other music for such an instrument, unless more recent research has turned up either a surviving instrument or surviving music. And since that was written (and presumably performed) at Köthen, and not Leipzig, Reiche wouldn't have played it, so the player it was written for is also a mystery. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
There's a fascinating reading of the Bach Brandenburg 3rd from 1953 on the DG-Archiv label with the Konzertgruppe der Schola Cantorum Basiliensis Conducted by: August Wenzinge. I am not sure if these are period instruments though. EMI Recordings has released some recordings dating from the 1920s that are even more fascinating to hear. I think in some peformances, a saxophone was used because trumpet players couldn't handle the difficult part? BTW: I LOVE the font used on the Archiv sleeve during this period, it reminds me a lot of Barenreiter's elegant fonds used in their Urtext editions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxWjGjmSIWEfeature=related Thanks Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
That recording is very interesting, Kim. An Archiv 45 single! I think the recorder is much closer to the mic than the trumpet (and everybody else, for that matter) - it has an unusual presence. I hope I can find an old 78 set I have, somewhere, of a Brandenburg 2nd that is a period instrument devotee's worst nightmare. At the start of the first movement the (probably Bb) trumpet player starts out an octave low, then jumps up to the run to the high C which he holds it out ff with no trill... and it goes on from there. The last movement is classic, with most of the trumpet part an octave down Quite a fun listen. I'll try to look for it in the catacombs. Raymond Horton Kim Patrick Clow wrote: There's a fascinating reading of the Bach Brandenburg 3rd from 1953 on the DG-Archiv label with the Konzertgruppe der Schola Cantorum Basiliensis Conducted by: August Wenzinge. I am not sure if these are period instruments though. EMI Recordings has released some recordings dating from the 1920s that are even more fascinating to hear. I think in some peformances, a saxophone was used because trumpet players couldn't handle the difficult part? BTW: I LOVE the font used on the Archiv sleeve during this period, it reminds me a lot of Barenreiter's elegant fonds used in their Urtext editions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxWjGjmSIWEfeature=related Thanks Kim ___ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Ray Horton rayhor...@insightbb.com wrote: That recording is very interesting, Kim. An Archiv 45 single! I think the recorder is much closer to the mic than the trumpet (and everybody else, for that matter) - it has an unusual presence. It's funny you mentioned the recorder-- there's another clip with Maurice Andre, and instead of a recorder, a modern flute is used, which to my ears, doesn't have the same snap or sizzle or bite a recorder gives the music, which seems odd. Have fun going through the catacombs ;) Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
On 23 Sep 2009 at 15:20, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: There's a fascinating reading of the Bach Brandenburg 3rd from 1953 on the DG-Archiv label with the Konzertgruppe der Schola Cantorum Basiliensis Conducted by: August Wenzinge. I am not sure if these are period instruments though. EMI Recordings has released some recordings dating from the 1920s that are even more fascinating to hear. I think in some peformances, a saxophone was used because trumpet players couldn't handle the difficult part? BTW: I LOVE the font used on the Archiv sleeve during this period, it reminds me a lot of Barenreiter's elegant fonds used in their Urtext editions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxWjGjmSIWEfeature=related As much as I feel honored to respect Wenzinger's contributions to the early music movement (as an Oberlin grad), I'm afraid this is more a modernist Bach peformance than what would later be found in the Early Music movement. The detached style of playing is very close to one of the most annoying aspects of conventional Baroque performance by players of modern instruments not trained in historically-informed performance, and that's the playing of all non-slurred/non-bowed notes portato. Just because a string of notes has no slurs or bowings over it doesn't mean all the notes should be played played an equal length, as seems to be the assumption operating in much of this recording (and in so many of the workaday Bach recordings on modern instruments up to the 80s, at least). You still hear it in professional pickup orchestras, too (I've listened on WNYC to recordings of Bach from Carnegie Hall where pickup orchestras or St. Luke's was playing and it drives me crazy; I also had to grit my teeth through it when I played continuo for a performance of Handel's Alcina at The California Music Festival back in 2004). It's so lacking in any subtlety, and, I think, reflects that positivistic view of Baroque style so popular in the postwar period. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
When I was in grad school back in the '70s, Tarr gave a lecture demonstration on the Bq. trumpet. He was at that time developing non-vented replicas of historical trumpets, *using historical construction methods*. He explained that early trumpeters did not need the vents, because the trumpets they used were hammered out on a form, and were thus slightly imperfect in their internal contours; this irregularity provided the player with just enough wiggle room to play all notes securely without the vents that, ironically, a mathematically perfect valveless trumpet requires. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Barbara Touburg btoub...@wanadoo.nl wrote: On Youtube there are clips of the Brandenburg concertos by the Freiburg Baroque. In this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jtk4ETAx8g the trumpet player moves his right hand fingers in a special way. What does he to? Are there tiny holes in the tube? Yes, those hole affect the pitch. Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Barbara Touburg btoub...@wanadoo.nl wrote: the trumpet player moves his right hand fingers in a special way. What does he to? Are there tiny holes in the tube? Barbara Er... Yes, those holes affect the pitch. Thanks ;) Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Howard Weiner h.wei...@online.de wrote: Unfortunately, the extra security that the vent holes provide also make it possible for trumpeters to play louder than they otherwise could on the old trumpets. In recent years, a number of European trumpet players, above all Jean-Francois Madeuf, have started playing without holes with increasing success. Howard I've heard Edward Tarr's recordings of the Charamela Real sonatas on the 18th century silver Lisbon trumpets, which were cast in Germany I believe, and they are much softer sounding than modern replicas of baroque trumpets. Fantastic recordings btw. Thanks Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
Howard Weiner wrote: At 19:57 22.09.2009 +0200, Barbara Touburg wrote: On Youtube there are clips of the Brandenburg concertos by the Freiburg Baroque. In this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jtk4ETAx8g the trumpet player moves his right hand fingers in a special way. What does he to? Are there tiny holes in the tube? That's Friedemann Immer and he using a Baroque trumpet with vent holes. A natural trumpet, i.e., one without vent holes, only provides the notes of the harmonic series, of which several are rather out of tune and/or instable. Opening a vent hole (there are generally three) basically puts the instrument in a different key with a different harmonic series, thus providing other possibilities for playing the otherwise out-of-tune or instable notes. Unfortunately, the extra security that the vent holes provide also make it possible for trumpeters to play louder than they otherwise could on the old trumpets. In recent years, a number of European trumpet players, above all Jean-Francois Madeuf, have started playing without holes with increasing success. Howard Thank you both, for your explanation. Enlightening! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
Kim Patrick Clow wrote: On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Howard Weiner h.wei...@online.de wrote: Unfortunately, the extra security that the vent holes provide also make it possible for trumpeters to play louder than they otherwise could on the old trumpets. In recent years, a number of European trumpet players, above all Jean-Francois Madeuf, have started playing without holes with increasing success. Howard I've heard Edward Tarr's recordings of the Charamela Real sonatas on the 18th century silver Lisbon trumpets, which were cast in Germany I believe, and they are much softer sounding than modern replicas of baroque trumpets. Fantastic recordings btw. How can you tell they're softer sounding than modern trumpets if it's a recording? Engineering can do a whole lot to make things seem one way when in fact they were the opposite in the actual recording situation. Only hearing Edward Tarr play on those original trumpets and then hearing Edward Tarr play on a modern replica, and hearing him do that live can really give any indication of the relative loud/soft-ness of the instruments. Even hearing two different players playing the two different instruments won't help, since no two trumpet players have the same strength of tone to begin with. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 4:15 PM, dhbailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com wrote: Kim Patrick Clow wrote: How can you tell they're softer sounding than modern trumpets if it's a recording? Engineering can do a whole lot to make things seem one way when in fact they were the opposite in the actual recording situation. Because I have a recording by John Wallace using modern replicas? But the way you framed the question, there's really no clear cut answer. Have you heard either recording by any chance? Only hearing Edward Tarr play on those original trumpets and then hearing Edward Tarr play on a modern replica, and hearing him do that live can really give any indication of the relative loud/soft-ness of the instruments. I guess. But I was only making a passing comment, but plenty of baroque trumpet players specifically mention the softness of playing on the historical instruments, so I don't think my experiences in the Tarr recordings were that off mark. Thanks Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
At 16:15 22.09.2009 -0400, dhbailey wrote: Only hearing Edward Tarr play on those original trumpets and then hearing Edward Tarr play on a modern replica, and hearing him do that live can really give any indication of the relative loud/soft-ness of the instruments. OK, I can confirm from personal experience that a baroque trumpet played by Edward Tarr is softer than a modern replica played by Edward Tarr. (I've known Ed for thirty-three years and was a member of his brass ensemble from 1978 to 1984.) Howard -- Howard Weiner h.wei...@online.de http://howard-weiner.de/ Tosca jumped to a conclusion. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
Howard Weiner wrote: At 16:15 22.09.2009 -0400, dhbailey wrote: Only hearing Edward Tarr play on those original trumpets and then hearing Edward Tarr play on a modern replica, and hearing him do that live can really give any indication of the relative loud/soft-ness of the instruments. OK, I can confirm from personal experience that a baroque trumpet played by Edward Tarr is softer than a modern replica played by Edward Tarr. (I've known Ed for thirty-three years and was a member of his brass ensemble from 1978 to 1984.) Excellent -- do you also know George Kent, who has accompanied Edward Tarr on many occasions? -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
At 9/22/2009 05:07 PM, dhbailey wrote: Excellent -- do you also know George Kent, who has accompanied Edward Tarr on many occasions? Is he fairly old? I had a George Kent (fantastic trumpet player) teach me clarinet at Stonington High School in 1963. He showed me an F-trumpet, I had never seen one before. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
Phil Daley wrote: At 9/22/2009 05:07 PM, dhbailey wrote: Excellent -- do you also know George Kent, who has accompanied Edward Tarr on many occasions? Is he fairly old? I had a George Kent (fantastic trumpet player) teach me clarinet at Stonington High School in 1963. He showed me an F-trumpet, I had never seen one before. He might well be the same one -- he's the trumpet professor at Univ. of Rhode Island. He also conducts the Westerly Chorus and Orchestra in Westerly, R.I. (where he's lived forever, it seems.) Back in the 1960s he might well have taught in the public schools in CT. My son's studying with him at U.R.I. my son has grown a lot under George's guidance. My son gets a kick out of the fact that George will swear at him in many different languages (good-naturedly, of course) when my son messes up. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trumpet question
At 9/22/2009 06:52 PM, dhbailey wrote: Phil Daley wrote: At 9/22/2009 05:07 PM, dhbailey wrote: Excellent -- do you also know George Kent, who has accompanied Edward Tarr on many occasions? Is he fairly old? I had a George Kent (fantastic trumpet player) teach me clarinet at Stonington High School in 1963. He showed me an F-trumpet, I had never seen one before. He might well be the same one -- he's the trumpet professor at Univ. of Rhode Island. He also conducts the Westerly Chorus and Orchestra in Westerly, R.I. (where he's lived forever, it seems.) Back in the 1960s he might well have taught in the public schools in CT. My son's studying with him at U.R.I. my son has grown a lot under George's guidance. My son gets a kick out of the fact that George will swear at him in many different languages (good-naturedly, of course) when my son messes up. Westerly is next door to Stonington. Must be him. I really liked him. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
