Re: [Fink-devel] Re: TkCVS - Use of directory mann?

[Christian Schaffner]

Hi Dorothy

At 23:34 Uhr -0800 16.1.2002, Dorothy Robinson wrote:
>Thanks for the information.  I didn't know (n) and (l) were non-standard.
>I'll change the tkcvs installer for the next release.

Sounds good! Thank you,
Chris.

>>Ok. Apple seems to have decided against mann, manl, mano. Also I do 
>>agree with Max Horn that 'New' etc. doesn't seem to mean a lot. If 
>>you look at the list above, tkCVS should install the man pages in 
>>'man1'. Do you agree?
>>
>>I will have the package description for tkCVS 7.0.2 for fink move 
>>the 'mann/tkcvs.n' file into 'man1/tkcvs.1'.
>>
>>It would probably be a good idea to do that yourself in the next 
>>revision of tkcvs.
>>
>>Greetings from Switzerland,
>>Chris.

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Re: [Fink-devel] info file format

[El JoPe Magnifico]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2002, Max Horn wrote:
> ...as has been discussed several times in the past, yeah, and was one
> of the original reasons we started talking about switching to a
> different package format in the future, with XML being one
> possibility.

Here's one more: YAML.  Details at www.yaml.org.  Easier to eyeball than
XML, and the author even does all his hacking on it in OS X, which adds
just a touch of pixie dust to any project.  =)  Seriously though, it fits
the needs here better than XML, which is kinda overkill.


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Re: [Fink-devel] xfree86-server

[Gordon Messmer]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2002, Max Horn wrote:

> I wonder if there is any reason why we should keep the xfree86-server 
> package? Granted, it's supposed to be a "stable" base compared to 
> rootless, but rootless runs rock stable for me, too.
> 
> 
> What do you think?

I think that running the X server in rootless mode paints much, much 
faster than fullscreen mode.  :)

However, running GNOME w sawfish in rootless mode, the WM seems to get 
sorta confused sometimes about the stacking order of windows.  Since I 
haven't figured out if the problem is in X or sawfish, I dunno if I'd 
totally agree that 4.1.0 should be tossed.

-- 
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[Fink-devel] tads license

[David R. Morrison]

I'd like to move the discussion of the tads license here, since there were
separate discussions on IRC and in the package submission tracker.  I'll
reproduce the relevant section of the license below.  The way I read this,
a careful person can create a Mac OS X port which could be distributed
in binary form.  (It looks like the maintainer has done this with his new
version.)  However, the license is not an open source license because
modification of the source is not permitted.

So I think the situation is: anyone could distribute a .deb of this
package who wants to, but Fink (according to its policy) is not going to 
distribute the .deb because the license is not open source.  Max, do 
you agree?

(In particular, the License field must stay at "Restrictive.")

  -- Dave

Here's the license:

FREEWARE LICENSE


The TADS source code is a copyrighted work.  The author grants you
permission to use, copy, and distribute this software, subject to
certain restrictions:

1. You must include this license and the copyright notice with
   all copies.
2. You may not require or collect a fee for copies of this
   software, or any part of this software, that you give to
   other people.
3. You may not include this software with any other software
   for which a fee is collected.
4. You may not modify this software except as permitted below
   (see "derivative works"), and each copy you make and
   distribute must be a full and complete copy of the software
   you originally received.
5. Anyone to whom you give a copy of this software receives
   all of the same permissions that you did under this license
   and is subject to all of the same restrictions.
6. You are not allowed to create derivative works, which are
   works that contain or are based on all or part of this work,
   except under the conditions described below.
7. Any derivative works are subject to this same license.

Derivative Works


THIS SOURCE CODE IS DISTRIBUTED FOR THE SPECIFIC PURPOSE OF
FACILITATING THE CREATION OF VERSIONS OF TADS ON VARIOUS COMPUTERS
AND OPERATING SYSTEMS.  ALL OTHER DERIVATIVE WORKS ARE PROHIBITED
WITHOUT THE WRITTEN PERMISSION OF THE AUTHOR.

A derivative work is a work that contains or is based on all of part
of this software.  Examples of derivative works would be a library
that incorporates some of the code from this software in source or
compiled form, an executable that contains code from this software,
or modified version of this code in source or compiled form.

You may create and distribute executables derived from this source
code.  You must clearly identify the executables as versions of TADS,
and include this license information (or the license information
included with the author's freeware distribution of the TADS
executables for MS_DOS or Macintosh platforms) with the files you
distribute.  We also ask that you provide some sort of information
(in a "readme" type of file, for example) identifying yourself, so
that people using your version can distinguish it from other versions
of TADS.

You should identify any executables you create from this source code
by placing an appropriate value in the file "oem.h" for the macro
variable TADS_OEM_NAME; refer to oem.h for instructions.

You may make modifications to the source code that are required in
order to adapt the code to different computer hardware and operating
system environments.  For the most part, such modifications should be
limited to source files whose names begin with or contain "os", since
TADS was designed to be portable to many different computers, and the
"os" files isolate the code anticipated by the author to be
platform-specific; changes are permitted in other files when doing so
is required in order to port the code to a new machine, though.  In
the course of making TADS work on a particular computer system, you
may customize the user interface; again, since TADS has been designed
to be adapted to different types of user interface systems, you
should be able to make this type of customization by changing only
the "os" files.

You may distribute modified versions of the source files, as long as
the changes you make are allowed as described above.  If you
distribute modified source files, you must clearly identify your
changes and their purpose, either in the source code you changed or
in a "readme" type of file that you distribute with your changes.
You must also clear identify the files as derivative works based on
the TADS source code, and include this license file with the files
you distribute.

In order to ensure the consistency of TADS implementations created
by different people, we do not allow any changes beyond those required
to port TADS to different machines.

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Re: [Fink-devel] xfree86-server

[Alexander Strange]

Well, some of us don't like downloading 56 MB CVS snapshots :)
How about making xfree86-rootless a special case and keeping it 
constantly in sync with stable and the bindist? The apt version is only 
3 MB, which is a LOT better.
On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 09:44 PM, Max Horn wrote:

> I wonder if there is any reason why we should keep the xfree86-server 
> package? Granted, it's supposed to be a "stable" base compared to 
> rootless, but rootless runs rock stable for me, too.
>
>
> What do you think?
>
>
> Max
> -- ---
> Max Horn
> Software Developer
>
> email: 
> phone: (+49) 6151-494890
>
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>
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"Gandalf, has your fondness for the hobbits' weed affected your mind?"
- The Lord Of The Rings Movie


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[Fink-devel] xfree86-server

[Max Horn]

I wonder if there is any reason why we should keep the xfree86-server 
package? Granted, it's supposed to be a "stable" base compared to 
rootless, but rootless runs rock stable for me, too.


What do you think?


Max
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Re: [Fink-devel] Initial 0.3.2a complete

[Max Horn]

>Curious:  How do you make .dmg files?  If I can get away with straight
>iso9660, then I'll use it.  Otherwise, I'd like to know what options are
>available.

The last one I just made with diskcopy. But you can also do it in a 
script using the hdiutil - search http://www.stepwise.com/ for a 
tutorial on that.


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Re: [Fink-devel] Optional usage of Storable.pm

[Max Horn]

At 20:53 Uhr -0500 16.01.2002, Kyle Moffett wrote:
>I am also going to be looking at writing some beta code for XML info 
>files, since that would really make many features much easier to 
>implement, as well as making the packaging policy more strict.  If 
>we wrote a .dtd, we could enforce that the package have a license 
>field, even if one of the values available is 'Unknown'.

Actually, enforcing a field or certain values for a field isn't the 
issue. There is already the "fink check" command, which does some 
limited validation (limited mainly because I never got around on 
finishing it, nor did anybody else).



>  Another thing we can do, though this kind of conflicts with the 
>packaging policy, is to enable the placing of multiple variants into 
>an info file.

...as has been discussed several times in the past, yeah, and was one 
of the original reasons we started talking about switching to a 
different package format in the future, with XML being one 
possibility.


>  The #DEFAULT# variant would be the one compiled into the bindist. 
>Then stuff like blah-ssl, blah-nox, and blah-macosx, could be put 
>into the same file.  New logic for sorting out dependancies would be 
>needed, but this is sort of a long term goal.

Exactly.


Max
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Re: [Fink-devel] Initial 0.3.2a complete

[Gordon Messmer]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Max Horn wrote:

> >There seem to still be old versions of povray, rasmol, and xfce in the
> >finkinfo tree.
> 
> What do you mean with "old" ? Not fixed since your last report? Well, 
> the maintainers may not yet have gotten around fixing them in stable 
> (hint, hint, Jeremy and Andrew =)

There are two .info files for those packages.

> >ghx still doesn't build.
> 
> Hm, too late to remove it from stable now, oversight by me :/

:)

> >There are two versions of automake, which like the versions of autoconf,
> >might be required, but they should have different package names so they
> >are both 'dselect' and apt-get-able.
> 
> Actually, that is not a mistake. You only should need to install 
> automake 1.4 if you are a developer and specifically need it, then I 
> don't think it's too much asked to enter "fink install automake-1.4", 
> is it?

Probably not, but it isn't consistent with the other packages where 
"necessary duplicates" have different names.  (e.g. ghostscript and 
ghostscript6, automake and automake25)

> >After that, I'm going to try my hand at a CD based installer.  :)
> 
> heheh ok :)

Curious:  How do you make .dmg files?  If I can get away with straight 
iso9660, then I'll use it.  Otherwise, I'd like to know what options are 
available.

-- 
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I'd have one dollar. - Squidward to SpongeBob


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Re: [Fink-devel] Initial 0.3.2a complete

[Alexander Strange]

On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 08:49 PM, Gordon Messmer wrote:

> OK, I've completed builds of everything in the main and crypto branch.
> The crypto branch isn't overly large.  :)
>
> The only problem I found there is that gnupg-egd doesn't build.  It 
> tries
> to install Fink/init.csh, which doesn't exist.
It should also have a Provides: gnupg , but it doesn't.
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Re: [Fink-devel] Optional usage of Storable.pm

[Kyle Moffett]

I am also going to be looking at writing some beta code for XML info 
files, since that would really make many features much easier to 
implement, as well as making the packaging policy more strict.  If we 
wrote a .dtd, we could enforce that the package have a license field, 
even if one of the values available is 'Unknown'.  Another thing we can 
do, though this kind of conflicts with the packaging policy, is to 
enable the placing of multiple variants into an info file.  The 
#DEFAULT# variant would be the one compiled into the bindist.  Then 
stuff like blah-ssl, blah-nox, and blah-macosx, could be put into the 
same file.  New logic for sorting out dependancies would be needed, but 
this is sort of a long term goal.

Any comments are welcome!

Just some ideas,
Kyle Moffett

On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 08:17 , Max Horn wrote:

> Thanks, Kyle and Randal! I really hope that this will allow work on the 
> "package DB" to go on.
>
>
> I guess once the DB really works, we'll want to make storable-pm an 
> essential package, but at least during bootstrap, we have to go without 
> it. AFAIK this was the main problem holding back the DB code, wasn't 
> it, Finlay?
>
>
> Max
> -- ---
> Max Horn
> Software Developer
>
> email: 
> phone: (+49) 6151-494890
>
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Re: [Fink-devel] Initial 0.3.2a complete

[Gordon Messmer]

OK, I've completed builds of everything in the main and crypto branch.  
The crypto branch isn't overly large.  :)

The only problem I found there is that gnupg-egd doesn't build.  It tries 
to install Fink/init.csh, which doesn't exist.



On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Gordon Messmer wrote:

> Thanks Max!  My updated report on the main branch:
> 
> gnome-games 1.4.0.3-4: installation fails when chown is not in the path,
>   which it normally is not.  gnome-games should refer to the full 
>   path of the binary
> 
> There seem to still be old versions of povray, rasmol, and xfce in the
> finkinfo tree.
> 
> ghx still doesn't build.
> 
> There are two versions of automake, which like the versions of autoconf, 
> might be required, but they should have different package names so they 
> are both 'dselect' and apt-get-able.
> 
> I'm going to build the crypto branch now.  I'll report again if there's 
> any problems.
> 
> After that, I'm going to try my hand at a CD based installer.  :)
> 
> 
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Max Horn wrote:
> 
> > The base part of 0.3.2a is complete. I have uploaded 
> > packages-0.3.2a.tar.gz, fink-0.3.2a-full.tar.gz and 
> > fink-0.3.2a-installer.dmg.gz to SourceForge. The download & package 
> > database web pages have already been updated. I also added a 0.3.2a 
> > branch to the bindist.
> > 
> > I will have to start building binary packages now, that is, I will 
> > not rebuild all I guess, since not to much changed - updating the 
> > core stuff should be sufficient.
> > 
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > Max
> > 
> 
> 

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Re: [Fink-devel] Optional usage of Storable.pm

[Max Horn]

Thanks, Kyle and Randal! I really hope that this will allow work on 
the "package DB" to go on.


I guess once the DB really works, we'll want to make storable-pm an 
essential package, but at least during bootstrap, we have to go 
without it. AFAIK this was the main problem holding back the DB code, 
wasn't it, Finlay?


Max
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Re: [Fink-devel] Optional usage of Storable.pm

[Kyle Moffett]

That is actually what I was thinking, but I am not very good at perl, so 
I was not sure that that method would work, and I saw the other in a 
test script that I knew did work, so I was inclined to go with what I 
know, and leave the refining to others who knew more.

Thanks for the tip,
Kyle Moffett

On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 06:58 , Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

>> "Kyle" == Kyle Moffett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> Kyle> I found a way to detect if Storable.pm exists, at runtime.  Pulled
> Kyle> this from the xml-simple-pm package, it was in one of the test 
> scripts.
>
> Kyle> eval ( require Storable; };
> Kyle> if ($INC{'Storable.pm'}) $somevar{'storable'} = 'True';
>
> This is simpler:
>
>   if (eval { require Storable; 1; }) { ... }
>
> and it can even be executed multiple times with very little overhead.
> There's no point in checking %INC, when the eval will either return
> its last expression, or return undef if failed.
>
> --
> Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 
> 0095
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
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Re: [Fink-devel] Optional usage of Storable.pm

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "Kyle" == Kyle Moffett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Kyle> I found a way to detect if Storable.pm exists, at runtime.  Pulled
Kyle> this from the xml-simple-pm package, it was in one of the test scripts.

Kyle> eval ( require Storable; };
Kyle> if ($INC{'Storable.pm'}) $somevar{'storable'} = 'True';

This is simpler:

  if (eval { require Storable; 1; }) { ... }

and it can even be executed multiple times with very little overhead.
There's no point in checking %INC, when the eval will either return
its last expression, or return undef if failed.

-- 
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<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
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Re: [Fink-devel] Initial 0.3.2a complete

[Jeremy Higgs]

On 17/1/02 10:29 AM, "Max Horn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>> The version of xfce in stable is old... I have compiled the unstable version
>> of xfce fine, and I have had successful reports, but someone complained of a
>> bus error, I think.
>> 
>> Bit late to move it to stable now, though, to be included in 0.3.2.a :-/
> 
> Considering that 0.3.2a is out for almost 24h, yes, it's a bit later :)
> 

Just out of interest... What's the best way to move something from unstable
to stable?

Also... (while I'm on the topic of CVS), if you want to 'resurrect' a file
that you've removed (cvs remove), what's the command to do that? I've seen
it done before...

Thanks!


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Re: [Fink-devel] Initial 0.3.2a complete

[Jeremy Higgs]

On 17/1/02 10:29 AM, "Max Horn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> At 10:14 Uhr +1100 17.01.2002, Jeremy Higgs wrote:
>> On 17/1/02 5:54 AM, "Max Horn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>>  At 9:50 Uhr -0800 16.01.2002, Gordon Messmer wrote:
  Thanks Max!  My updated report on the main branch:
 
  gnome-games 1.4.0.3-4: installation fails when chown is not in the path,
  which it normally is not.  gnome-games should refer to the full
  path of the binary
 
  There seem to still be old versions of povray, rasmol, and xfce in the
  finkinfo tree.
>>> 
>>>  What do you mean with "old" ? Not fixed since your last report? Well,
>>>  the maintainers may not yet have gotten around fixing them in stable
>>>  (hint, hint, Jeremy and Andrew =)
>> 
>> The version of xfce in stable is old... I have compiled the unstable version
>> of xfce fine, and I have had successful reports, but someone complained of a
>> bus error, I think.
>> 
>> Bit late to move it to stable now, though, to be included in 0.3.2.a :-/
> 
> Considering that 0.3.2a is out for almost 24h, yes, it's a bit later :)

24hours??? Really? Hmmm... Didn't think I had slept THAT long! :)
 
>> I'll still move it if you want, though! :)
> 
> Of course, we'll want it in 0.3.3, don't we?
> 
> 
> BTW, I am not sure if everybody is on the fink-announce list - do you
> guys think I should also send the announce mail to fink-user &
> fink-beginner?
> 
> 
> Max

Yes.

(and maybe put a note to say to subscribe to fink-announce too)


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Re: [Fink-devel] Initial 0.3.2a complete

[Max Horn]

At 10:14 Uhr +1100 17.01.2002, Jeremy Higgs wrote:
>On 17/1/02 5:54 AM, "Max Horn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>  At 9:50 Uhr -0800 16.01.2002, Gordon Messmer wrote:
>>>  Thanks Max!  My updated report on the main branch:
>>>
>>>  gnome-games 1.4.0.3-4: installation fails when chown is not in the path,
>>>  which it normally is not.  gnome-games should refer to the full
>>>  path of the binary
>>>
>>>  There seem to still be old versions of povray, rasmol, and xfce in the
>>>  finkinfo tree.
>>
>>  What do you mean with "old" ? Not fixed since your last report? Well,
>>  the maintainers may not yet have gotten around fixing them in stable
>>  (hint, hint, Jeremy and Andrew =)
>
>The version of xfce in stable is old... I have compiled the unstable version
>of xfce fine, and I have had successful reports, but someone complained of a
>bus error, I think.
>
>Bit late to move it to stable now, though, to be included in 0.3.2.a :-/

Considering that 0.3.2a is out for almost 24h, yes, it's a bit later :)


>I'll still move it if you want, though! :)

Of course, we'll want it in 0.3.3, don't we?


BTW, I am not sure if everybody is on the fink-announce list - do you 
guys think I should also send the announce mail to fink-user & 
fink-beginner?


Max
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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Justin Hallett]

I built all mine at once and they all built fine
in the same shell.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>Oh, and another weird thing, several -pm packages I have built were 
>erroring like crazy, then I tried building in a clean shell, and they 
>suddenly worked, oh and I did try that for this one, too, but I will try 
>again.

¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
 Justin F. Hallett   
CAISnet Inc.  
  2nd Floor, 11635 - 160 Street   
 Edmonton, AB, Canada  T5M 3Z3
  Phone: (780)-408-3094
Fax: (780)-454-3200
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.caisnet.com/
¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,


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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Kyle Moffett]

probably, though I might be wrong.

On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 06:16 , Justin Hallett wrote:

> you think it's an env problem?
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>> I think that this is one of the problems we are going to have more and
>> more.  The user's environments are not being cleaned for the make, make
>> test, and make install.  Without a clean environment, everything just
>> about flies out the window.
>
> ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
>  Justin F. Hallett
> CAISnet Inc.
>   2nd Floor, 11635 - 160 Street
>  Edmonton, AB, Canada  T5M 3Z3
>   Phone: (780)-408-3094
> Fax: (780)-454-3200
> E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  http://www.caisnet.com/
> ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
>
>
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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Kyle Moffett]

Oh, and another weird thing, several -pm packages I have built were 
erroring like crazy, then I tried building in a clean shell, and they 
suddenly worked, oh and I did try that for this one, too, but I will try 
again.

On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 06:13 , Justin Hallett wrote:

> you seem to have all the packages I thought would matter
>
> I could simply remove the make test for now...but I don't understand why
> it works 100% for me and not you...that is weird.
>
> ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
>  Justin F. Hallett
> CAISnet Inc.
>   2nd Floor, 11635 - 160 Street
>  Edmonton, AB, Canada  T5M 3Z3
>   Phone: (780)-408-3094
> Fax: (780)-454-3200
> E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  http://www.caisnet.com/
> ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
>


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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Justin Hallett]

you think it's an env problem?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>I think that this is one of the problems we are going to have more and 
>more.  The user's environments are not being cleaned for the make, make 
>test, and make install.  Without a clean environment, everything just 
>about flies out the window.

¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
 Justin F. Hallett   
CAISnet Inc.  
  2nd Floor, 11635 - 160 Street   
 Edmonton, AB, Canada  T5M 3Z3
  Phone: (780)-408-3094
Fax: (780)-454-3200
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.caisnet.com/
¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,


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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Kyle Moffett]

I think that this is one of the problems we are going to have more and 
more.  The user's environments are not being cleaned for the make, make 
test, and make install.  Without a clean environment, everything just 
about flies out the window.

On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 06:13 , Justin Hallett wrote:

> you seem to have all the packages I thought would matter
>
> I could simply remove the make test for now...but I don't understand why
> it works 100% for me and not you...that is weird.
>
> ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
>  Justin F. Hallett
> CAISnet Inc.
>   2nd Floor, 11635 - 160 Street
>  Edmonton, AB, Canada  T5M 3Z3
>   Phone: (780)-408-3094
> Fax: (780)-454-3200
> E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  http://www.caisnet.com/
> ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
>


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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Justin Hallett]

you seem to have all the packages I thought would matter

I could simply remove the make test for now...but I don't understand why
it works 100% for me and not you...that is weird.

¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
 Justin F. Hallett   
CAISnet Inc.  
  2nd Floor, 11635 - 160 Street   
 Edmonton, AB, Canada  T5M 3Z3
  Phone: (780)-408-3094
Fax: (780)-454-3200
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.caisnet.com/
¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,


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Re: [Fink-devel] Initial 0.3.2a complete

[Jeremy Higgs]

On 17/1/02 5:54 AM, "Max Horn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> At 9:50 Uhr -0800 16.01.2002, Gordon Messmer wrote:
>> Thanks Max!  My updated report on the main branch:
>> 
>> gnome-games 1.4.0.3-4: installation fails when chown is not in the path,
>> which it normally is not.  gnome-games should refer to the full
>> path of the binary
>> 
>> There seem to still be old versions of povray, rasmol, and xfce in the
>> finkinfo tree.
> 
> What do you mean with "old" ? Not fixed since your last report? Well,
> the maintainers may not yet have gotten around fixing them in stable
> (hint, hint, Jeremy and Andrew =)

The version of xfce in stable is old... I have compiled the unstable version
of xfce fine, and I have had successful reports, but someone complained of a
bus error, I think.

Bit late to move it to stable now, though, to be included in 0.3.2.a :-/

I'll still move it if you want, though! :)


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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Kyle Moffett]

[localhost:~] kyle% fink list pm
Reading package info...
Information about 664 packages read in 5 seconds.
 appconfig-pm1.52-1  Perl5 modules for reading configuration 
fil...
  i  compress-zlib-p 1.16-1  Part of the info-zip zlib compression 
library
 data-showtable- 3.3-1   Perl routines to display tabular data in 
se...
 date-manip-pm   5.40-2  Perl Module to add Date::Manip
 dbd-mysql-pm2.1005-1A Perl5 Database Interface to the MySQL 
dat...
 dbi-pm  1.20-1  The Perl Database Interface by Tim Bunce.
  i  digest-md5-pm   2.16-4  Perl module, access to the RSA Data 
Security
 filter-simple-p 0.77-1  Perl Module for simplified source 
filtering.
 filter-util-pm  1.26-1  Perl source filter utility module
 finance-quote-p 1.06-2  perl module gets stock quotes
 finance-quotehi 0.25-1  Perl module to get old financial quotes
 gd-pm   1.33-3  Perl interface to the GD graphics library
 html-fromtext-p 1.005-2 text2html function marks up plain text 
as HTML
  i  html-parser-pm  3.25-2  Perl modules that parse and extract info
 html-tableextra 1.07-2  Perl module to extract data from html 
tables
  i  html-tagset-pm  3.03-2  Perl module, data tables useful in HTML
 inline-pm   0.43-1  Write Perl subroutines in other 
programming...
  i  libnet-pm   1.09-1  Perl modules, simple programming 
interface
  i  libwww-pm   5.63-1  Perl modules, programming interface to 
the WWW
  i  libxml-pm   0.07-2  Perl modules for working with XML in Perl
 lingua-en-numbe 0.01-2  Perl mod To Convert 1 to 1st
 lingua-preferre 0.1-2   Let you specify your lang in Perl
 log-tracemsgs-p 1.0-2   Better way of putting trace messages in 
you...
  i  memoize-pm  0.66-2  Transparently speeds functions by 
caching v...
  i  mime-base64-pm  2.12-2  Perl module that contains a base64 
enc/dec
 rec-descent-pm  1.80-1  Generate Recursive-Descent Parsers.
 storable-pm 1.0.14-1perl module for persistent data 
structures
 template-nodocs 2.06c-1 A fast, powerful and extensible template 
pr...
 template-notex- 2.06c-1 A fast, powerful and extensible template 
pr...
 template-notexd 2.06c-1 A fast, powerful and extensible template 
pr...
 template-pm 2.06c-1 A fast, powerful and extensible template 
pr...
  i  term-progressba 1.0-2   Perl Mod to make a progress bar
 tie-ixhash-pm   1.21-2  Helps preserve order in associative 
arrays
 unicode-string- 2.06-2  Perl mod for unicode strings
  i  uri-pm  1.17-2  Perl module that implements the URI class
  i  xml-dom-pm  1.35-2  Perl ext that adds new style to 
XML::Parser
  i  xml-parser-pm   2.30-2  Perl ext interface to XML parser/expat
  i  xml-regexp-pm   0.03-2  Perl modules for XML tokens
 xml-simple-pm   1.05-2  Trivial API for reading and writing XML
 xml-writer-pm   0.4-2   Perl module for writing XML documents
[localhost:~] kyle%

On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 06:03 , Justin Hallett wrote:

> send me the list you get from
>
> fink list pm
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>> If I remove storable-pm, here's the error I get:
>>
>> t/4_MemShare2:DataCompare: expected 2 key(s) (one, two), got: 1
>> (server)
>> 4:DataCompare: expected 2 key(s) (one, two), got: 1 (server)
>> Use of uninitialized value in string ne at t/4_MemShare.t line 33.
>> 1..7
>> not ok 1
>> not ok 2
>> ok 3
>> not ok 4
>> ok 5
>> ok 6
>> not ok 7
>> FAILED tests 1-2, 4, 7
>> Failed 4/7 tests, 42.86% okay
>
> ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
>  Justin F. Hallett
> CAISnet Inc.
>   2nd Floor, 11635 - 160 Street
>  Edmonton, AB, Canada  T5M 3Z3
>   Phone: (780)-408-3094
> Fax: (780)-454-3200
> E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  http://www.caisnet.com/
> ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Justin Hallett]

send me the list you get from

fink list pm

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>If I remove storable-pm, here's the error I get:
>
>t/4_MemShare2:DataCompare: expected 2 key(s) (one, two), got: 1 
>(server)
>4:DataCompare: expected 2 key(s) (one, two), got: 1 (server)
>Use of uninitialized value in string ne at t/4_MemShare.t line 33.
>1..7
>not ok 1
>not ok 2
>ok 3
>not ok 4
>ok 5
>ok 6
>not ok 7
>FAILED tests 1-2, 4, 7
> Failed 4/7 tests, 42.86% okay

¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
 Justin F. Hallett   
CAISnet Inc.  
  2nd Floor, 11635 - 160 Street   
 Edmonton, AB, Canada  T5M 3Z3
  Phone: (780)-408-3094
Fax: (780)-454-3200
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.caisnet.com/
¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,


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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Kyle Moffett]

If I remove storable-pm, here's the error I get:

t/4_MemShare2:DataCompare: expected 2 key(s) (one, two), got: 1 
(server)
4:DataCompare: expected 2 key(s) (one, two), got: 1 (server)
Use of uninitialized value in string ne at t/4_MemShare.t line 33.
1..7
not ok 1
not ok 2
ok 3
not ok 4
ok 5
ok 6
not ok 7
FAILED tests 1-2, 4, 7
 Failed 4/7 tests, 42.86% okay

On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 05:56 , Justin Hallett wrote:

> I had a file in perl5/Memoize/ called Storable.pm so i removed 
> memoize-pm
> but it still built xml-simple-pm
>
> make test
> PERL_DL_NONLAZY=1 /usr/bin/perl -Iblib/arch -Iblib/lib
> -I/System/Library/Perl/darwin -I/System/Library/Perl -e 'use 
> Test::Harness
> qw(&runtests $verbose); $verbose=0; runtests @ARGV;' t/*.t
> t/1_XMLin...ok
>
> t/2_XMLout..ok
>
> t/3_Storableno Storable.pm...skipped test on this platform
> t/4_MemShareok
>
> t/5_MemCopy.no Storable.pm...skipped test on this platform
> t/6_ObjIntf.ok
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>> I got this error after I installed Storable.pm.  The earlier error
>> talked about Storable, so I installed it, but I don't think that fixed
>> the underlying problem, because I then got the error I sent you.
>
> ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
>  Justin F. Hallett
> CAISnet Inc.
>   2nd Floor, 11635 - 160 Street
>  Edmonton, AB, Canada  T5M 3Z3
>   Phone: (780)-408-3094
> Fax: (780)-454-3200
> E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  http://www.caisnet.com/
> ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
>
>
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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Justin Hallett]

here is what I get after installing storable-pm

make test
PERL_DL_NONLAZY=1 /usr/bin/perl -Iblib/arch -Iblib/lib
-I/System/Library/Perl/darwin -I/System/Library/Perl -e 'use Test::Harness
qw(&runtests $verbose); $verbose=0; runtests @ARGV;' t/*.t
t/1_XMLin...ok
  
t/2_XMLout..ok
  
t/3_Storableok
  
t/4_MemShareok
  
t/5_MemCopy.ok
  
t/6_ObjIntf.ok
  
All tests successful.


¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
 Justin F. Hallett   
CAISnet Inc.  
  2nd Floor, 11635 - 160 Street   
 Edmonton, AB, Canada  T5M 3Z3
  Phone: (780)-408-3094
Fax: (780)-454-3200
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.caisnet.com/
¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,


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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Justin Hallett]

I had a file in perl5/Memoize/ called Storable.pm so i removed memoize-pm
but it still built xml-simple-pm

make test
PERL_DL_NONLAZY=1 /usr/bin/perl -Iblib/arch -Iblib/lib
-I/System/Library/Perl/darwin -I/System/Library/Perl -e 'use Test::Harness
qw(&runtests $verbose); $verbose=0; runtests @ARGV;' t/*.t
t/1_XMLin...ok
  
t/2_XMLout..ok
  
t/3_Storableno Storable.pm...skipped test on this platform
t/4_MemShareok
  
t/5_MemCopy.no Storable.pm...skipped test on this platform
t/6_ObjIntf.ok
  


[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>I got this error after I installed Storable.pm.  The earlier error 
>talked about Storable, so I installed it, but I don't think that fixed 
>the underlying problem, because I then got the error I sent you.

¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
 Justin F. Hallett   
CAISnet Inc.  
  2nd Floor, 11635 - 160 Street   
 Edmonton, AB, Canada  T5M 3Z3
  Phone: (780)-408-3094
Fax: (780)-454-3200
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.caisnet.com/
¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,


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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Kyle Moffett]

I got this error after I installed Storable.pm.  The earlier error 
talked about Storable, so I installed it, but I don't think that fixed 
the underlying problem, because I then got the error I sent you.

On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 05:52 , Justin Hallett wrote:

> all this was after or before storable.pm?
>
> ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
>  Justin F. Hallett
> CAISnet Inc.
>   2nd Floor, 11635 - 160 Street
>  Edmonton, AB, Canada  T5M 3Z3
>   Phone: (780)-408-3094
> Fax: (780)-454-3200
> E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  http://www.caisnet.com/
> ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
>


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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Justin Hallett]

try installing memoize-pm and then xml-simple-pm and let me know so I can
add it as a depends.

¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
 Justin F. Hallett   
CAISnet Inc.  
  2nd Floor, 11635 - 160 Street   
 Edmonton, AB, Canada  T5M 3Z3
  Phone: (780)-408-3094
Fax: (780)-454-3200
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.caisnet.com/
¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,


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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Justin Hallett]

all this was after or before storable.pm?

¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
 Justin F. Hallett   
CAISnet Inc.  
  2nd Floor, 11635 - 160 Street   
 Edmonton, AB, Canada  T5M 3Z3
  Phone: (780)-408-3094
Fax: (780)-454-3200
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.caisnet.com/
¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,


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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Kyle Moffett]

OK, got it,

t/4_MemShareUse of uninitialized value in string ne at 
t/4_MemShare.t line 33.
1..7
ok 1
ok 2
ok 3
ok 4
ok 5
ok 6
not ok 7
FAILED test 7
 Failed 1/7 tests, 85.71% okay
t/5_MemCopy.1..7
ok 1
ok 2
ok 3
ok 4
ok 5
ok 6
ok 7
ok
[snip]
Failed Test  Status Wstat Total Fail  Failed  List of failed
---
t/4_MemShare.t71  14.29%  7
Failed 1/6 test scripts, 83.33% okay. 1/314 subtests failed, 99.68% okay.

On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 05:26 , Justin Hallett wrote:

> Strange I don't have storable.pm installed and it doesn't fail for
> mecan you send me the error??
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>> Justin,
>>
>> I tried to compile your xml-simple-pm module, and I got an error in
>> testing.  I believe that it depends on the Storable.pm module, aka
>> storable-pm in fink. I verified this by running verbosely, several
>> things aren't bothered, but the test t/4_MemShare.t fails without
>> Storable.pm (As above, this was verified verbosely).  Can you please 
>> add
>> that dependency?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kyle Moffett
>
> ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
>  Justin F. Hallett
> CAISnet Inc.
>   2nd Floor, 11635 - 160 Street
>  Edmonton, AB, Canada  T5M 3Z3
>   Phone: (780)-408-3094
> Fax: (780)-454-3200
> E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  http://www.caisnet.com/
> ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Kyle Moffett]

Sure, but actually I just installed Storable.pm and got a different 
error, so I'll send that, because it's probably the root of the problem.

make test
PERL_DL_NONLAZY=1 /usr/bin/perl -Iblib/arch -Iblib/lib 
-I/System/Library/Perl/darwin -I/System/Library/Perl -e 'use 
Test::Harness qw(&runtests $verbose); $verbose=0; runtests @ARGV;' t/*.t
t/1_XMLin...ok
t/2_XMLout..ok
t/3_Storableok
t/4_MemShareUse of uninitialized value in string ne at 
t/4_MemShare.t line 33.
t/4_MemShareNOK 7FAILED test 7
 Failed 1/7 tests, 85.71% okay
t/5_MemCopy.ok
t/6_ObjIntf.ok
Failed Test  Status Wstat Total Fail  Failed  List of failed
---
t/4_MemShare.t71  14.29%  7
Failed 1/6 test scripts, 83.33% okay. 1/314 subtests failed, 99.68% okay.

The verbose will come in a minute

On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 05:26 , Justin Hallett wrote:

> Strange I don't have storable.pm installed and it doesn't fail for
> mecan you send me the error??
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>> Justin,
>>
>> I tried to compile your xml-simple-pm module, and I got an error in
>> testing.  I believe that it depends on the Storable.pm module, aka
>> storable-pm in fink. I verified this by running verbosely, several
>> things aren't bothered, but the test t/4_MemShare.t fails without
>> Storable.pm (As above, this was verified verbosely).  Can you please 
>> add
>> that dependency?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kyle Moffett
>
> ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
>  Justin F. Hallett
> CAISnet Inc.
>   2nd Floor, 11635 - 160 Street
>  Edmonton, AB, Canada  T5M 3Z3
>   Phone: (780)-408-3094
> Fax: (780)-454-3200
> E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  http://www.caisnet.com/
> ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·.,
>
>
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Re: [Fink-devel] fink vs apt-get

[El JoPe Magnifico]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Finlay Dobbie wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 09:33  pm, Max Horn wrote:
>> Oh and to mention one more difference: count the number of active
>> debian developers. The count the total number of active fink
>> developers. Compare the numbers. Think.
>
> And compare the number of Debian build servers, Debian donations,
> and just resources in general.

Then let me ask a question that's probably somewhere in the list
archives, but damned if I'm going to spend forever and a day digging
it up:

Have strong sentiments been expressed either way, and on either side,
regarding a more formal relationship between Fink and Debian?

There's no mention of any background on the topic in the FAQ,
only the note that there currently is no formal relationship.

Hell, at very least it would be nice for the mailing list to be
hosted somewhere that has a non-crappy archive browser. *sigh*



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Re: [Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Justin Hallett]

Strange I don't have storable.pm installed and it doesn't fail for
mecan you send me the error??

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>Justin,
>
>I tried to compile your xml-simple-pm module, and I got an error in 
>testing.  I believe that it depends on the Storable.pm module, aka 
>storable-pm in fink. I verified this by running verbosely, several 
>things aren't bothered, but the test t/4_MemShare.t fails without 
>Storable.pm (As above, this was verified verbosely).  Can you please add 
>that dependency?
>
>Thanks,
>Kyle Moffett

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[Fink-devel] xml-simple-pm

[Kyle Moffett]

Justin,

I tried to compile your xml-simple-pm module, and I got an error in 
testing.  I believe that it depends on the Storable.pm module, aka 
storable-pm in fink. I verified this by running verbosely, several 
things aren't bothered, but the test t/4_MemShare.t fails without 
Storable.pm (As above, this was verified verbosely).  Can you please add 
that dependency?

Thanks,
Kyle Moffett


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[Fink-devel] Optional usage of Storable.pm

[Kyle Moffett]

I found a way to detect if Storable.pm exists, at runtime.  Pulled this 
from the xml-simple-pm package, it was in one of the test scripts.

# Usage in test script

eval { require Storable; };
unless($INC{'Storable.pm'}) {
   print STDERR "no Storable.pm...";
   print "1..0\n";
   exit 0;
}


# Potential Fink usage.

eval ( require Storable; };
if ($INC{'Storable.pm'}) $somevar{'storable'} = 'True';

# or

sub Storable {
eval ( require Storable; );
$INC{'Storable.pm}
}

I thought that with this we could implement info file caching.

Just wanted to help,
Kyle Moffett


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Re: [Fink-devel] fink vs apt-get

[Finlay Dobbie]

On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 09:33  pm, Max Horn wrote:

> At 16:11 Uhr -0500 16.01.2002, David R. Morrison wrote:
>> (Sorry for the incomplete message, I hit the wrong button!)
>>
>> That being said, we have not yet gotten a smooth system working for
>> creating binaries on a regular basis, and there was an unfortunate
>> technical problem about a week ago which wiped out some old binaries.
>> So please be patient with us -- in a week or so you will find many
>> more binaries, which should correspond completely to all of the stable,
>> free packages in fink.
>
> Yup exactly.
>
> Oh and to mention one more difference: count the number of active 
> debian developers. The count the total number of active fink 
> developers. Compare the numbers. Think.

And compare the number of Debian build servers, Debian donations, and 
just resources in general.

  -- Finlay


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Re: [Fink-devel] fink vs apt-get

[Max Horn]

At 16:11 Uhr -0500 16.01.2002, David R. Morrison wrote:
>(Sorry for the incomplete message, I hit the wrong button!)
>
>That being said, we have not yet gotten a smooth system working for
>creating binaries on a regular basis, and there was an unfortunate
>technical problem about a week ago which wiped out some old binaries.
>So please be patient with us -- in a week or so you will find many
>more binaries, which should correspond completely to all of the stable,
>free packages in fink.

Yup exactly.

Oh and to mention one more difference: count the number of active 
debian developers. The count the total number of active fink 
developers. Compare the numbers. Think.


Max
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Re: [Fink-devel] fink vs apt-get

[El JoPe Magnifico]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Max Horn wrote:
> With fink, for every package there is an .info file (and possibly a
> .patch file, too). Fink then uses the data from this .info file to
> retrieve the source tarball(s), expand them, patch them, compile
> everything, and then package it into a .deb (this is much shortened
> version of the full process). These .debs then are just like any
> other .deb, and can be installed (and "fink install " does
> exactly this, by calling dpkg).
>
> apt-get differs in that it only knows how to download a .deb from a
> set of servers. Fink OTOH builds those from scratch. Afterwards, both
> sets of .debs (the self made ones, and the downloaded ones) can be
> used completely equally. In fact, once you have the .deb, "fink
> install" always will use that .deb instead of recreating it (unless
> you force it to via "fink rebuild").

With all due respect, Max, I believe you are mistaken about apt-get
having this defiency:

apt-get source 

Downloads the "vanilla" source tarball, a descriptive .dsc file and a
patch file -- the latter two containing much the same info as the fink's
.info file.  Does the .info have some benefit over the patch/.dsc combo,
and if so, what is it?

The only issues I can think of are:

 * "apt-get source" pulls down into the current directory by default,
   rather than a standard location, e.g. /usr/src. (but trivial to
   fix if fink is providing a layer on top apt-get)

 * local copies of source packages are not tracked the same as binary
   packages, so you could pull down a duplicate copy unnecessarily.
   (although there's /var/cache/apt/srcpkgcache.bin -- what is that?)

 * the ability to specify a site/directory for the tarball and patch
   that is different. (not sure on this -- given the format of the
   .dsc, it would an easy capability to add)

It's possible these issues have been dealt with in a more recent
version than I have installed on my Debian machines (0.5.3).

pine and qmail are both example of a Debian package that I have to do
this with, precisely because Debian won't make binary packages available
for license reasons.


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Re: [Fink-devel] fink vs apt-get

[David R. Morrison]

(Sorry for the incomplete message, I hit the wrong button!)

That being said, we have not yet gotten a smooth system working for
creating binaries on a regular basis, and there was an unfortunate
technical problem about a week ago which wiped out some old binaries.
So please be patient with us -- in a week or so you will find many
more binaries, which should correspond completely to all of the stable,
free packages in fink.

  -- Dave

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Re: [Fink-devel] fink vs apt-get

[David R. Morrison]

Let me mention one difference between debian and fink.

Right now, the debian distribution is divided into free, contrib, non-free
sections.  We haven't made this division formally in fink, but it is only
the *free* portion that we will provide binaries for.  The "unstable"
part of fink is just that -- relatively new and untested -- and even
among stable packages there are many which would not fall into debian's
"main" (="free") distribution.

That being said, we have only been providing binaries at all for a few
months, and we have not yet mastered the 

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Re: [Fink-devel] fink vs apt-get

[Matt Wallace]

> Well, it's not weak, though perhaps a bit strained. qmail by Dan
> Berstein is under a source-only distribution. He allows for binary
> distributions in a very narrow set of circumstances. I believe most
> of his other software is as well. I can certainly see it happening,
> even if it is uncommon.

This may be true, but it is obviously distributable in binary form, as
there exists Mandrake, Redhat, and Debian packages for this software.  The
authors website says all you have to do is put together the package and
submit it to him for approval.  (See cr.yp.to/qmail/dist.html for more
info).

Even if this were incredibily difficult, it doesn't explain the other 400+
packages that are missing from the binary dist.

-Matt


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Re: [Fink-devel] fink vs apt-get

[Max Horn]

At 15:37 Uhr -0500 16.01.2002, Matt Wallace wrote:
>  > We don't want to be sued. If a packages doesn't have a license field,
>>  it won't get into the bindist. If it is under a restrictive license
>>  which forbids binary redistribution, it won't get into the bindist.
>>  If a package possibly infringes patents (like libgif does with the
>>  unisys patent), it won't get into the binary distro. If a package
>>  fails in any other way to comply the policy... you guess.
>
>This seems a little extreme.  I just checked and there are 570 packages in
>the source distro and only 83 in the bin distro.  Are we saying that all
>of these have unacceptable licenses?

No. First off, there are just 290 packages in stable - the count 570 
includes unstable, which currently is not available as binary.

Secondly, there was a major mistake on my part just recently, which 
caused the bindist to be deleted. The main reason the binary packages 
are not yet fully online again is that I was waiting for 0.3.2a, 
since it's kind pointless to upload everything when you know you have 
to do that shortly afterwards again.


>  Autoconf isn't even in the binary dist and if the GPL isn't 
>acceptable, I don't know what is.  I'm hoping that all of these 
>packages have policy problems, since that is the other
>reason you site for possible omission, but even if this is the case, have
>the maintainers been notified?

See above for the actual reasons. And yes, of course the package 
maintainers are notified if the packages have problems, do you think 
I am a stupid?


>   I think it should be a very important goal
>for fink to get the entire source distribution into the binary
>distribution.

I think this will and can never happen, for obvious legal reasons. 
the percantage will go up, but never can reach 100%.

>  I definitely agree that having the _option_ to compile
>automatically from source is nice, but binary should definitely be the
>default.

Actually, fink is primarily about the source compilation, binary dist 
follow (very closely) on the second spot.


>
>Also I think the, "we don't want to get sued" line is weak.  If somebody
>has a problem with their software being distributed they mail the list and
>it's taken off the distribution.

In many cases in the past, this didn't happen. Often enough, the 
*whole* website were taken offline, and it also is known to happen 
that they don't ask first, but rather send a cease & desist (with a 
spicy bill attached) first. We are taking a defensive stance here 
with good reasons. After all it is not *you* who might get problems, 
it's me.


>   But more to the point, if someone is
>distributing the source to their software, what complaint would they make
>if you compiled it and distributed it.

Please, before you continue writing stuff, *read* the policy, will 
you? I don't like particulary to have to lecture about things that 
were written down previously, and to which I pointed you before.


>   My main evidence for this is that
>every package in fink is present in Debian, and no one has sued them, and
>they are a hell of a lot more high profile that Fink is.

You may think about this as you prefer of course. However, I'd 
normally think one would first carefully read everything about a 
project, then listen for some time to the development discussion, ask 
some questions etc. before jumping in with big and wild guess and 
conclusions at what is (in your view) the case and what we, the fink 
team should do. I am open to input and suggestions, but the form in 
which you present it makes me very uncomfortable.


Max
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Re: [Fink-devel] fink vs apt-get

[Zachery Bir]

On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 03:37 , Matt Wallace wrote:

> Also I think the, "we don't want to get sued" line is weak.  If 
> somebody
> has a problem with their software being distributed they mail the 
> list and
> it's taken off the distribution.  But more to the point, if someone is
> distributing the source to their software, what complaint would 
> they make
> if you compiled it and distributed it.  My main evidence for this 
> is that
> every package in fink is present in Debian, and no one has sued 
> them, and
> they are a hell of a lot more high profile that Fink is.

Well, it's not weak, though perhaps a bit strained. qmail by Dan 
Berstein is under a source-only distribution. He allows for binary 
distributions in a very narrow set of circumstances. I believe most 
of his other software is as well. I can certainly see it happening, 
even if it is uncommon.

Zac


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Re: [Fink-devel] fink vs apt-get

[Matt Wallace]

> We don't want to be sued. If a packages doesn't have a license field,
> it won't get into the bindist. If it is under a restrictive license
> which forbids binary redistribution, it won't get into the bindist.
> If a package possibly infringes patents (like libgif does with the
> unisys patent), it won't get into the binary distro. If a package
> fails in any other way to comply the policy... you guess.

This seems a little extreme.  I just checked and there are 570 packages in
the source distro and only 83 in the bin distro.  Are we saying that all
of these have unacceptable licenses?  Autoconf isn't even in the binary
dist and if the GPL isn't acceptable, I don't know what is.  I'm hoping
that all of these packages have policy problems, since that is the other
reason you site for possible omission, but even if this is the case, have
the maintainers been notified?  I think it should be a very important goal
for fink to get the entire source distribution into the binary
distribution.  I definitely agree that having the _option_ to compile
automatically from source is nice, but binary should definitely be the
default.

Also I think the, "we don't want to get sued" line is weak.  If somebody
has a problem with their software being distributed they mail the list and
it's taken off the distribution.  But more to the point, if someone is
distributing the source to their software, what complaint would they make
if you compiled it and distributed it.  My main evidence for this is that
every package in fink is present in Debian, and no one has sued them, and
they are a hell of a lot more high profile that Fink is.

-Matt


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Re: [Fink-devel] Initial 0.3.2a complete

[Finlay Dobbie]

On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 07:13  pm, Max Horn wrote:

> Sorry I must have forgotten this then.
>
> Anyway, ghx-0.1.39-2 should be polished a bit first, I think - it is 
> also lacking a LIcense & DocFiles field (but maybe they are not 
> applicable?)

There is no license. It's not public domain, either. I think I'll just 
use Restrictive.

  -- Finlay


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Re: [Fink-devel] Initial 0.3.2a complete

[Max Horn]

At 19:07 Uhr + 16.01.2002, Finlay Dobbie wrote:
>On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 06:55  pm, Max Horn wrote:
>
>>At 18:21 Uhr + 16.01.2002, Finlay Dobbie wrote:
>>>On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 05:50  pm, Gordon Messmer wrote:
>>>
ghx still doesn't build.
>>>
>>>As I said before, the problems you are encountering have been 
>>>fixed for months now, in ghx-0.1.39-2.
>>
>>but that is not in stable. You might want to move it there...
>
>Possibly, but I thought you asked me not to at some point. I will, though.

Sorry I must have forgotten this then.

Anyway, ghx-0.1.39-2 should be polished a bit first, I think - it is 
also lacking a LIcense & DocFiles field (but maybe they are not 
applicable?)


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Re: [Fink-devel] Initial 0.3.2a complete

[Finlay Dobbie]

On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 06:55  pm, Max Horn wrote:

> At 18:21 Uhr + 16.01.2002, Finlay Dobbie wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 05:50  pm, Gordon Messmer wrote:
>>
>>> ghx still doesn't build.
>>
>> As I said before, the problems you are encountering have been fixed 
>> for months now, in ghx-0.1.39-2.
>
> but that is not in stable. You might want to move it there...

Possibly, but I thought you asked me not to at some point. I will, 
though.

  -- Finlay


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Re: [Fink-devel] Initial 0.3.2a complete

[Max Horn]

At 9:50 Uhr -0800 16.01.2002, Gordon Messmer wrote:
>Thanks Max!  My updated report on the main branch:
>
>gnome-games 1.4.0.3-4: installation fails when chown is not in the path,
>   which it normally is not.  gnome-games should refer to the full
>   path of the binary
>
>There seem to still be old versions of povray, rasmol, and xfce in the
>finkinfo tree.

What do you mean with "old" ? Not fixed since your last report? Well, 
the maintainers may not yet have gotten around fixing them in stable 
(hint, hint, Jeremy and Andrew =)

>ghx still doesn't build.

Hm, too late to remove it from stable now, oversight by me :/


>There are two versions of automake, which like the versions of autoconf,
>might be required, but they should have different package names so they
>are both 'dselect' and apt-get-able.

Actually, that is not a mistake. You only should need to install 
automake 1.4 if you are a developer and specifically need it, then I 
don't think it's too much asked to enter "fink install automake-1.4", 
is it?


>
>I'm going to build the crypto branch now.  I'll report again if there's
>any problems.

Thanks a lot :)

>
>After that, I'm going to try my hand at a CD based installer.  :)

heheh ok :)



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Re: [Fink-devel] Initial 0.3.2a complete

[Max Horn]

At 18:21 Uhr + 16.01.2002, Finlay Dobbie wrote:
>On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 05:50  pm, Gordon Messmer wrote:
>
>>ghx still doesn't build.
>
>As I said before, the problems you are encountering have been fixed 
>for months now, in ghx-0.1.39-2.

but that is not in stable. You might want to move it there...


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Re: [Fink-devel] fink vs apt-get

[Max Horn]

At 8:01 Uhr -0800 16.01.2002, Evan Martin wrote:
>On Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 11:10:55AM +0100, Max Horn wrote:
>>  I think you really should have first informed yourself a bit better
>>  about fink before posting this! I think it's a bit embarassing to see
>>  people post to fink-devel who haven't even bothered to read the docs.
>>
>>  We do offere binaries (.deb files), and you indeed can use apt-get and
>>  dselect.
>
>I am somewhat familiar with fink; I do use it, after all! :)
>
>I was referring more to the fact that many packages are not available
>through the dselect method.

http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/packaging/policy.php

We don't want to be sued. If a packages doesn't have a license field, 
it won't get into the bindist. If it is under a restrictive license 
which forbids binary redistribution, it won't get into the bindist. 
If a package possibly infringes patents (like libgif does with the 
unisys patent), it won't get into the binary distro. If a package 
fails in any other way to comply the policy... you guess.


>
>For example, when I want to install a package, the process I use is
>usually:
>  - apt-get install packagename
>  - if package wasn't found
> - check the fink page to see if it has a different name than I'm
>   accustomed to
> - fink install packagename
>
>This last step seems odd-- there are two separate ways to install
>packages?

Well, you have one valid point (which was discussed before, I think): 
it might be desirable to add an option to fink that will change the 
behaviour of "fink install" so that it first tries to use apt-get for 
installation, and if that fails, it'll offer (or do it automatically) 
build the package from source.


>   How can I tell from the fink page whether a package is
>installable via apt-get or fink?
>
>(For example, installing something like "vim"
>  [ http://fink.sourceforge.net/pdb/package.php/vim ] .)
>
>
>I guess fink is closer to the FreeBSD model, where you have binary
>packages to install and you have a ports tree with source to install?

I am not acquainted well enough with the ports model to follow your 
comparision.

With fink, for every package there is an .info file (and possibly a 
.patch file, too). Fink then uses the data from this .info file to 
retrieve the source tarball(s), expand them, patch them, compile 
everything, and then package it into a .deb (this is much shortened 
version of the full process). These .debs then are just like any 
other .deb, and can be installed (and "fink install " does 
exactly this, by calling dpkg).
apt-get differs in that it only knows how to download a .deb from a 
set of servers. Fink OTOH builds those from scratch. Afterwards, both 
sets of .debs (the self made ones, and the downloaded ones) can be 
used completely equally. In fact, once you have the .deb, "fink 
install" always will use that .deb instead of recreating it (unless 
you force it to via "fink rebuild").


>  > Fink is a tool to create those packages in a simple&automated
>>  fashion, simpler than anything that I have seen on debian so far, and
>>  better to maintain.
>
>Hm... so is that the reason?  "It's better to maintain."
>If so, that's a perfectly valid reason. :)

That's one of the reasons. It's also easier to write new packages 
then with debian from my experience. Even new fink users, even ones 
with little unix experience, can do it.


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Re: [Fink-devel] Initial 0.3.2a complete

[Finlay Dobbie]

On Wednesday, January 16, 2002, at 05:50  pm, Gordon Messmer wrote:

> ghx still doesn't build.

As I said before, the problems you are encountering have been fixed for 
months now, in ghx-0.1.39-2.

  -- Finlay


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Re: [Fink-devel] Initial 0.3.2a complete

[Gordon Messmer]

Thanks Max!  My updated report on the main branch:

gnome-games 1.4.0.3-4: installation fails when chown is not in the path,
which it normally is not.  gnome-games should refer to the full 
path of the binary

There seem to still be old versions of povray, rasmol, and xfce in the
finkinfo tree.

ghx still doesn't build.

There are two versions of automake, which like the versions of autoconf, 
might be required, but they should have different package names so they 
are both 'dselect' and apt-get-able.

I'm going to build the crypto branch now.  I'll report again if there's 
any problems.

After that, I'm going to try my hand at a CD based installer.  :)


On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Max Horn wrote:

> The base part of 0.3.2a is complete. I have uploaded 
> packages-0.3.2a.tar.gz, fink-0.3.2a-full.tar.gz and 
> fink-0.3.2a-installer.dmg.gz to SourceForge. The download & package 
> database web pages have already been updated. I also added a 0.3.2a 
> branch to the bindist.
> 
> I will have to start building binary packages now, that is, I will 
> not rebuild all I guess, since not to much changed - updating the 
> core stuff should be sufficient.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Max
> 

-- 
If I had a dollar for every brain that you don't have,
I'd have one dollar. - Squidward to SpongeBob


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Re: [Fink-devel] fink vs apt-get

[Justin Hallett]

dpkg -l /*/*  <--- to see if it is apt-getable
fink list   <--- to see if it exists in fink at all.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>This last step seems odd-- there are two separate ways to install
>packages?  How can I tell from the fink page whether a package is
>installable via apt-get or fink?

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Re: [Fink-devel] fink vs apt-get

[Evan Martin]

On Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 11:10:55AM +0100, Max Horn wrote:
> I think you really should have first informed yourself a bit better 
> about fink before posting this! I think it's a bit embarassing to see 
> people post to fink-devel who haven't even bothered to read the docs.
> 
> We do offere binaries (.deb files), and you indeed can use apt-get and 
> dselect.

I am somewhat familiar with fink; I do use it, after all! :)

I was referring more to the fact that many packages are not available
through the dselect method.

For example, when I want to install a package, the process I use is
usually: 
 - apt-get install packagename
 - if package wasn't found 
- check the fink page to see if it has a different name than I'm
  accustomed to
- fink install packagename

This last step seems odd-- there are two separate ways to install
packages?  How can I tell from the fink page whether a package is
installable via apt-get or fink?

(For example, installing something like "vim"
 [ http://fink.sourceforge.net/pdb/package.php/vim ] .)


I guess fink is closer to the FreeBSD model, where you have binary
packages to install and you have a ports tree with source to install?

> Fink is a tool to create those packages in a simple&automated 
> fashion, simpler than anything that I have seen on debian so far, and 
> better to maintain.

Hm... so is that the reason?  "It's better to maintain."
If so, that's a perfectly valid reason. :)

-- 
  Evan Martin
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  http://neugierig.org

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Re: [Fink-devel] fink vs apt-get

[Max Horn]

I think you really should have first informed yourself a bit better 
about fink before posting this! I think it's a bit embarassing to see 
people post to fink-devel who haven't even bothered to read the docs.

We do offere binaries (.deb files), and you indeed can use apt-get and dselect.

Fink is a tool to create those packages in a simple&automated 
fashion, simpler than anything that I have seen on debian so far, and 
better to maintain.


Cheers,

Max
-- 
---
Max Horn
Software Developer

email: 
phone: (+49) 6151-494890

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