Re: Is there a compendium of English and Colonial gun control laws out there?
On Tue, Jan 08, 2008 at 02:23:13PM -0500, Philip F. Lee wrote:
> Recently, the NRA supported HR2640, the so-call NICS improvement
> measure, and CBS News ("NRA, Democrats Team Up To Pass Gun Bill",
> WASHINGTON, June 13, 2007) and the Wall Street Journal ("Uncommon
> Harmony: Democrats and NRA Push for Gun Bill", David Rogers, June 13,
> 2007) gave them credit for doing so. The NRA web page
> http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=246&issue=018 also
> shows this support.
>
> Previously, the NRA supported the Brady bill and was instrumental in
> supporting "instant check" which effectively saved the Brady
> background check.
Ah, yes. The five day "instant" registration scheme.
Yes, I know the statute says they aren't to keep records of
approvals. Right. And what computer operator has ever been fired for
being overzealous in backup administration?
> This instant check was opposed by the Brady organization, but
> without it, the background checking provisions using local police
> but not paying them to perform the checks was held unconstitutional
> by the USSC. Without the instant check provisions, there the Brady
> bill might have been rendered impotent.
>
> There are many other cases of pro-RKBA activists questioning whether
> the NRA is a supporter of the Second Amendment -- in one case, the NRA
> attempted to torpedo the DC v Heller law suit in early stages; in
> another Dr. Sarah Thompson(a well-known RKBA activist) wrote "Not
> Rational Anymore"
> http://www.shmoo.com/mail/cypherpunks/may00/msg00103.shtml
> to show her dislike of NRA activities.
Let's see, teaming up with Brady folks to pass a law in PA that
allowed the cops to confiscate firearms under certain conditions. In a
delicious irony, the first victim was an NRA member.
>
> I think it isn't reasonable to try to use the NRA as exemplar of a pro-
> Second Amendment organization. I would class them as a pro-right of a
I would say, "pro-privilege", not "pro-right".
Gun Owners of America and Jews for the Preservation of Firearms
Ownership come to mind as "pro-right" organizations.
> some citizens to own and use some firearms group with the "some
> citizens" and "some firearms" defined to be as wide as possible as
> political conditions permit.
Also, as far as I know, the NRA has so far avoided mentioning Ron
Paul's presidential campaign in its literature, though I would be glad
of any correction on this point. They finally mentioned Libertarians
when they had to deal with the fact of four sitting Libertarians in
the New Hampshire legislature a few years ago.
>
> --
> The Art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get
> at him as soon as you can. Strike at him as hard as you can and as
> often as you can, and keep moving on.
> -- Ulysses S. Grant
Or, as Patton put it, "Grab him by the nose and kick him in the
pants."
--
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Re: Is there a compendium of English and Colonial gun control laws out there?
Recently, the NRA supported HR2640, the so-call NICS improvement
measure, and CBS News ("NRA, Democrats Team Up To Pass Gun Bill",
WASHINGTON, June 13, 2007) and the Wall Street Journal ("Uncommon
Harmony: Democrats and NRA Push for Gun Bill", David Rogers, June 13,
2007) gave them credit for doing so. The NRA web page
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=246&issue=018 also
shows this support.
Previously, the NRA supported the Brady bill and was instrumental in
supporting "instant check" which effectively saved the Brady
background check. This instant check was opposed by the Brady
organization, but without it, the background checking provisions using
local police but not paying them to perform the checks was held
unconstitutional by the USSC. Without the instant check provisions,
there the Brady bill might have been rendered impotent.
There are many other cases of pro-RKBA activists questioning whether
the NRA is a supporter of the Second Amendment -- in one case, the NRA
attempted to torpedo the DC v Heller law suit in early stages; in
another Dr. Sarah Thompson(a well-known RKBA activist) wrote "Not
Rational Anymore"
http://www.shmoo.com/mail/cypherpunks/may00/msg00103.shtml
to show her dislike of NRA activities.
I think it isn't reasonable to try to use the NRA as exemplar of a pro-
Second Amendment organization. I would class them as a pro-right of a
some citizens to own and use some firearms group with the "some
citizens" and "some firearms" defined to be as wide as possible as
political conditions permit.
Phil
>
> On Jan 8, 2008, at 6:40 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Can anyone help me find a pro-Second Amendment source which
states
> > and
> > defends some regulations of gun ownership? Thanks in advance.
>
> The answer to this question largely depends on how the answerer
> defines "pro-Second Amendment." For example, the American Hunters
> and Shooters Association calls itself "pro-Second Amendment," but
you
> will look long and hard before you find any gun control law or
> regulation which they actually oppose.
>
> In terms of public perception, the NRA holds street cred as being
> "pro-Second Amendment." You can look at their website, where they
> are on record as supporting (among other things):
>
> The national background check for firearms purchasers
> The ban on firearms ownership for convicted felons
> The federal Gun-Free School Zones law
> The recently passed NICS Improvement Act (dubbed the Veterans
> Disarmament Act by other pro-2A organizations).
>
> --
> Escape the Rat Race for Peace, Quiet, and Miles of Desert
Beauty
> Take a Sanity Break at The Bunkhouse at Liberty Haven Ranch
> http://libertyhavenranch.com
>
>
> ___
> To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see
http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof
>
> Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed
as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that
are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can
(rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
>
>
--
The Art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get
at him as soon as you can. Strike at him as hard as you can and as
often as you can, and keep moving on.
-- Ulysses S. Grant
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Re: Is there a compendium of English and Colonial gun control laws out there?
On Jan 8, 2008, at 11:39 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I realize my question ultimately depends on a plausible > explication of > "pro-Second Amendment." Unfortunately, I'm not able to do that. So > let's just use > the NRA as an example. My second question is which proposed (or > actual) gun > regulations does the NRA oppose. Again, thanks in advance. There are so many proposed, it is like naming grains of sand. For starters: Banning all ammunition. 1,000% tax on all ammunition (Sen. Moynihan). Banning all handguns (Sen. Chaffee, Rep. Major Owens). Banning a gun on the basis of cosmetic features as "more dangerous" than a functionally equivalent unbanned gun (Sen. Feinstein). Allowing municipalities to bans types of guns that are legal elsewhere in their states, or to ban gun possession likewise (Mayor Daley). Laws making it a crime to give or sell a firearm to a qualified resident of another state (GCA of 1968). Laws that create a registry of gun owners that could be used to confiscate firearms (Brady Bill records retention issue) Edicts from local law enforcement that suddenly and capriciously outlaw all legal gun possession (as happened after Katrina). Those are just off the top of my head. For a good history of how the NRA, once a sportsmen's association sympathetic to gun control, got forged into an opposition political force practically against their will, read "Gun Control" by Robert Kukla. Many more examples of answers to your questions will be found there. -- Escape the Rat Race for Peace, Quiet, and Miles of Desert Beauty Take a Sanity Break at The Bunkhouse at Liberty Haven Ranch http://libertyhavenranch.com ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Is there a compendium of English and Colonial gun control laws out there?
On Jan 8, 2008, at 6:40 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Can anyone help me find a pro-Second Amendment source which states > and > defends some regulations of gun ownership? Thanks in advance. The answer to this question largely depends on how the answerer defines "pro-Second Amendment." For example, the American Hunters and Shooters Association calls itself "pro-Second Amendment," but you will look long and hard before you find any gun control law or regulation which they actually oppose. In terms of public perception, the NRA holds street cred as being "pro-Second Amendment." You can look at their website, where they are on record as supporting (among other things): The national background check for firearms purchasers The ban on firearms ownership for convicted felons The federal Gun-Free School Zones law The recently passed NICS Improvement Act (dubbed the Veterans Disarmament Act by other pro-2A organizations). -- Escape the Rat Race for Peace, Quiet, and Miles of Desert Beauty Take a Sanity Break at The Bunkhouse at Liberty Haven Ranch http://libertyhavenranch.com ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Is there a compendium of English and Colonial gun control laws out there?
I realize my question ultimately depends on a plausible explication of "pro-Second Amendment." Unfortunately, I'm not able to do that. So let's just use the NRA as an example. My second question is which proposed (or actual) gun regulations does the NRA oppose. Again, thanks in advance. Bobby Robert Justin Lipkin Professor of Law Widener University School of Law Delaware Ratio Juris , Contributor: _ http://ratiojuris.blogspot.com/_ (http://ratiojuris.blogspot.com/) Essentially Contested America, Editor-In-Chief _http://www.essentiallycontestedamerica.org/_ (http://www.essentiallycontestedamerica.org/) **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Is there a compendium of English and Colonial gun control laws out there?
Everyone does. For example, Don Kates does in his groundbreaking 1986 Michigan Law Review article. http://www.guncite.com/journals/kmich.html Professor Joseph Olson, J.D., LL.M.o- 651-523-2142 Hamline University School of Law (MS-D2037) f- 651-523-2236 St. Paul, MN 55113-1235 c- 612-865-7956 [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 01/08/08 7:40 AM >>> Can anyone help me find a pro-Second Amendment source which states and defends some regulations of gun ownership? Thanks in advance. Bobby Robert Justin Lipkin Professor of Law Widener University School of Law Delaware Ratio Juris, Contributor: http://ratiojuris.blogspot.com/ ( http://ratiojuris.blogspot.com/ ) Essentially Contested America, Editor-In-Chief http://www.essentiallycontestedamerica.org/ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape ( http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 ) in the new year. ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Is there a compendium of English and Colonial gun control laws out there?
Can anyone help me find a pro-Second Amendment source which states and defends some regulations of gun ownership? Thanks in advance. Bobby Robert Justin Lipkin Professor of Law Widener University School of Law Delaware Ratio Juris , Contributor: _ http://ratiojuris.blogspot.com/_ (http://ratiojuris.blogspot.com/) Essentially Contested America, Editor-In-Chief _http://www.essentiallycontestedamerica.org/_ (http://www.essentiallycontestedamerica.org/) **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Is there a compendium of English and Colonial gun control laws out there?
Some of the disarming, militia, and game laws of England are covered in my That Every Man Be Armed, chapter 2. My book A Right to Bear Arms includes the prominent firearm laws of each colony/state, including militia, slave code, and a few gunpowder storage or other regulations. Steve Stephen P. Halbrook Attorney at Law 10560 Main St., Suite 404 Fairfax, VA 22030 Tel. (703) 352-7276 Fax (703) 359-0938 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: www.stephenhalbrook.com In a message dated 1/7/2008 6:09:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is there a compendium of English and Colonial gun control laws out there? I know Bellesiles claimed to have been researching this, and my sense is Prof. Churchill has looked at some, too, but I'm wondering if there's some place out there where they're well organized. Thanks, Eugene ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Is there a compendium of English and Colonial gun control laws out there?
Jon Roland wrote: > Joyce Malcolm has done the most work on the English side, but it is more > selective than comprehensive, although there apparently also wasn't much > legislation beyond what is in her book. On the U.S. side the closest are > the books by James Whisker, which we have online at > http://www.constitution.org/jw/jbwhisker.htm . But the statutes are > scattered through the books rather than gathered together and just listed. > > - Clayton Cramer. Along with Joyce Malcolm, he's the expert. JW ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Is there a compendium of English and Colonial gun control laws out there?
It should be noted that what we today call "gun control" laws were rare, and almost all directed at disarming disfavored minorities, like Catholics (in England), or Blacks or Native Americans (in the colonies and early republic). About the first U.S. laws to restrict white males were the restrictions on concealed carry in the 1830s. After the War of Secession gun control laws appeared that seemed to apply to everyone but with the understanding among law enforcement professionals and almost everyone that they were only actually to be applied to disfavored minorities, which began to include union organizers and certain immigrant groups. I recall that in the 1950s when I was young they were just not enforced against white native-born citizens who were not union organizers or civil rights activists, and everyone understood that. It was when they began to be enforced against non-activist native-born whites that the gun rights movement emerged as we know it today. -- Jon Constitution Society 7793 Burnet Road #37, Austin, TX 78757 512/299-5001 www.constitution.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Is there a compendium of English and Colonial gun control laws out there?
Joyce Malcolm has done the most work on the English side, but it is more selective than comprehensive, although there apparently also wasn't much legislation beyond what is in her book. On the U.S. side the closest are the books by James Whisker, which we have online at http://www.constitution.org/jw/jbwhisker.htm . But the statutes are scattered through the books rather than gathered together and just listed. -- Jon Constitution Society 7793 Burnet Road #37, Austin, TX 78757 512/299-5001 www.constitution.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Is there a compendium of English and Colonial gun control laws out there?
Is there a compendium of English and Colonial gun control laws out there? I know Bellesiles claimed to have been researching this, and my sense is Prof. Churchill has looked at some, too, but I'm wondering if there's some place out there where they're well organized. Thanks, Eugene ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
