Re: Shotguns as recommended for self-defense for some people, over handguns
Hi all, I am sorry for the delay in responding to this thread and I don't mean to resurrect its mostly dead state, but, since I was able to put together a test case, it seemed reasonable to put it forward. I was reading the large number of comments about the shotgun being too unwieldy to be effective in home defense. Since I instruct with a firearms school in LA, I decided it was reasonable to test. So, I hijacked a student during today's class and at the break, I threw a shotgun at him. The student is not big (~5'8, 130-140lbs) and had no experience with rifles or shotguns. I gave him 5 minutes of training on safety, operation and general technique and let him run the course. His practice consisted of 2-3 dry operations of the shotgun so he would understand the mechanisms. The course was one close (4') and one slightly distant (10') opponent. He performed this course, twice each, with a pistol and a shotgun. I took video and posted it on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTZvhcYj-ek My conclusions are as follows from this 1 anecdotal example. - 12 gauge recoil 00 Buck on winchester low recoil law enforcement ammunition is manageable even by those that have never shot a shotgun before. The student didn't drop the shotgun. it didn't jump wildly about. - acceptable accuracy with a rifle/shotgun is much easier to accomplish than with a handgun. Even his point shooting was dead on. In contrast, his pistol shots were in both in the lung on the distant target. I would not bet that these pistol shots would instantly take down an opponent and this is from a person that has trained ~5 hours with a pistol. With 5 minutes instruction he shot it as I would in a close contact situation and was dead on. His 1st run though the course was low on the distal target and dead on in the 2nd run. - the big downside seems to be the pumping mechanism. I considered him to be remarkably slow in operating the shotgun. With 30' of practice I could get him pumping with the recoil and his speed would probably be similar to his handgun work with more lethal results. - This exercise really reaffirmed that the pistol really is a remarkably difficult to master weapon. With 5 hours of training, he was somewhat lethal with a pistol -- I tried to build up the stress during the exercise, his pistol shots were drifting pretty badly as a result. If you believe in shot placement, I would not want to rely on this skill level under the stress of a real engagement. In contrast, the shotgun was dependably operated (although slightly slowly) with this level of stress and SIGNIFICANTLY less training. All for what it's worth for 1 test case example... But, I thought it would be fun to test. Jonathan ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Shotguns as recommended for self-defense for some people, over handguns
An interesting subject, and not one I usually expect from my learned colleagues of the Bar. But, if Professor V allows it, excellent, because I think I know more about handling guns than handling legal treatises on constitutional law. I see that the consensus seems to be that handguns are superior to shotguns for home defense due to ease of handling and difficulties with recoil. In reality, the key is this: If someone has some preexisting skill level with shotguns, it might be worth considering for them, but for them only. Whether it is a shotgun or a handgun, a pre-existing skill is mandatory. In other words, if the average homeowner has no pre-existing skills with firearms, it matters little which weapon is selected, the homeowner is going to have difficulties if the need arises. On the other hand, pointing and shooting a shotgun loaded with birdshot has a far more likely hit percentage than a handgun if the user is lacking shooting skills. So, with no skills whatsoever, assuming such a person's family wants them anywhere near a firearm, I submit the shotgun is the better choice. With respect to recoil, I submit that shotguns loaded with birdshot have marginal recoil at best - their reputation for recoil is legendary but that presupposes buckshot, not birdshot. In a home, buckshot is a liability - it too easily pierces walls and windows. Birdshot will do the job needed if defense is required and penetration is very much diminished although I assure you that it will most definitely penetrate barriers. But, then again, so will handgun bullets, so the tradeoff is only a matter of volume, to wit, the quantity of possible penetrations from one fired shot. Shotguns of limited length are NOT AT ALL difficult to handle, not for any person, man or woman, of average strength and stature. In my experience, which is far from limited, I assure you, the recoil from a standard bird load, be it in 12, 16, or 20 gauge, is neither severe nor particularly uncomfortable, even with an 18 barrel. After 50 to 100 rounds of sporting clays with a 12 gauge pump and a long barrel you will be bruised and tired but after 24 rounds of 12 gauge, assuming 4 shots per stage, at a six stage cowboy action match, which also includes rifles and handguns, you will neither be bruised nor particularly tired from shooting. Little kids do it, small women do it, it is simply not a big deal to handle a shotgun with the lighter loads. The larger issue is portability. If a homeowner finds that s/he has to move from room to room, any long gun is a liability unless s/he trains for this. Moving through narrow halls and doorways in the dark or in panic mode is problematic with a long arm and, worse yet, a confrontation face to face can easily cause the defending homeowner to be disarmed. It can happen with a handgun as well but it is not as easy. On the other hand, if you have a shotgun in your bedroom, and that's where you'll probably be late at night, in the event that there is a break in, and if you choose to NOT confront the perpetrators, sitting in the dark with a loaded shotgun pointed at your bedroom door (for this discussion we will presume you know where your family is, or you live alone) is far more effective than a handgun. The whole issue of the racking sound of a pump gun being a deterrent is foolish for two reasons. One, as mentioned, it gives your position away and two, far more importantly, long before anyone invades your home your shotgun, regardless if it is a pump gun or has any other action, should be loaded AND racked - if the chamber is empty you are wasting one round. Your handguns wouldn't have the chamber empty (I hope); why does your shotgun? I didn't see Gran Torino yet so I do not know what they showed but the theory of using your shotgun in your home as your primary defense weapon is not at all faulty provided you know how to use it. But that was my first premise, anyway. Let's discuss one other interesting comment, the one that suggests the shotgun is intimidating if the perpetrator sees it. My friends, if you keep a gun in your home for self defense and are not prepared to use it please sell it immediately. It is a useless piece of wood/metal/plastic if you cannot pull the trigger. If you are face to face with a perpetrator and you're playing Freeze or I'll shoot! you are beyond help because at that distance you can be reached in fractions of a second. Even if you fire your weapon you can be reached. If you are face to face with death or bodily injury and you have a gun you are supposed to pull the trigger. However, I suspect that most people who are confronted in their home by an armed, or otherwise threatening stranger are, for better or worse, going to shoot first and ask questions later. I certainly hope so! Use both hands and find your phone later when you don't need to hold a gun any more! I don't want
RE: Shotguns as recommended for self-defense for some people over handguns
Good point Charles! -Original Message- From: firearmsregprof-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [mailto:firearmsregprof-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Charles Curley Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:57 PM To: firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Shotguns as recommended for self-defense for some people over handguns On Mon, Feb 09, 2009 at 03:14:56PM -0600, Raymond Kessler wrote: I’m with Joe. Another thought here is that you may need to call the cops to come collect the bad guy. At that point, you may need to hold your phone in one hand and your weapon in the other. A hand gun is not only easier to hold (and, if need be, use) with one hand but safer. Even absent the phone, the handgun is safer to carry. See, e.g., the scene in Gran Torino. -- Charles Curley /\ASCII Ribbon Campaign Looking for fine software \ /Respect for open standards and/or writing? X No HTML/RTF in email http://www.charlescurley.com/ \No M$ Word docs in email Key fingerprint = CE5C 6645 A45A 64E4 94C0 809C FFF6 4C48 4ECD DFDB ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Shotguns as recommended for self-defense for some people over handguns
Portions of these 2 Heller briefs deal with the handgun as home defensive firearms choices. 2008 WL 405576 (Appellate Brief) Brief of the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association (ILEETA), the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors (IALEFI), Maryland State Lodge, Fraternal Order of Police, Southern States Police Benevolent Association, 29 Elected California District Attorneys, San Francisco Veteran Police Officers Association, Long Beach Police Officers Association, Texas Police Chiefs Association, Texas Municipal Police Association, New York State Association of Auxi (Feb. 11, 2008) 2008 WL 383535 (Appellate Brief) Brief of Criminologists, Social Scientists, Other Distinguished Scholars and the Claremont Institute as Amici Curiae in Support of Respondent (Feb. 7, 2008) Ray Kessler Prof. of Criminal Justice Sul Ross State Univ. -Original Message- From: firearmsregprof-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [mailto:firearmsregprof-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Charles Curley Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:57 PM To: firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Shotguns as recommended for self-defense for some people over handguns On Mon, Feb 09, 2009 at 03:14:56PM -0600, Raymond Kessler wrote: I’m with Joe. Another thought here is that you may need to call the cops to come collect the bad guy. At that point, you may need to hold your phone in one hand and your weapon in the other. A hand gun is not only easier to hold (and, if need be, use) with one hand but safer. Even absent the phone, the handgun is safer to carry. See, e.g., the scene in Gran Torino. -- Charles Curley /\ASCII Ribbon Campaign Looking for fine software \ /Respect for open standards and/or writing? X No HTML/RTF in email http://www.charlescurley.com/ \No M$ Word docs in email Key fingerprint = CE5C 6645 A45A 64E4 94C0 809C FFF6 4C48 4ECD DFDB ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Shotguns as recommended for self-defense for some people over handguns
None of the responders mentioned the risk of liability on injury to innocents from handgun rounds penetration and range compared to shotguns. Also, the shotgun should have a superior hit probability to the handgun for those with limited experience. In fact on this list has been a report about the shotgun's superior hit ability in combat to a limit range (60 yards?) relative to modern assault rifles. I don't have a reference currently. Phil I've often heard people say that shotguns are better than handguns for self-defense for some people. I know others disagree, but for now I just want a cite for the proposition that just as Heller points out that handguns are reasonably preferred by some, so shotguns could be reasonably preferred by others. Can anyone please pass along such a quick cite for me? Many thanks, Eugene ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Shotguns as recommended for self-defense for some people over handguns
Unfortunately, Eugene, the shotgun idea is the result of ignorance by gun owners as well as the general populace. Many in both groups believe the nonsense that an 18 inch (shortest legal length) barreled shotgun will fill a hallway with lead. Simply FALSE. The pattern of shotgun pellets expands about 1 inch per yard. So at 3 yards, the usual self-defense distance, the pattern is 3 inches in diameter. NOT 3 feet. Based on police stats, it is easy to miss completely at that distance. But, conceding this point, if you hit them at three yards with a 3 pattern consisting of nine .32 caliber projectiles (using size OO Buck which has a huge recoil) you will stop them about 96% of the time (and kill them dead right there). But the practical problems of size, weight, recoil, and barrel length (allowing the intruder to leverage it right out of your hands) remain. All are avoided with a three-inch barreled .357 magnum revolver which, loaded with proper ammunition has the same 96% one-shot stop record. ** Professor Joseph Olson, J.D., LL.M.o- 651-523-2142 Hamline University School of Law (MS-D2037) f- 651-523-2236 St. Paul, MN 55113-1235 c- 612-865-7956 jol...@gw.hamline.edu Volokh, Eugene vol...@law.ucla.edu 2/4/2009 1:08 PM I've often heard people say that shotguns are better than handguns for self-defense for some people. I know others disagree, but for now I just want a cite for the proposition that just as Heller points out that handguns are reasonably preferred by some, so shotguns could be reasonably preferred by others. Can anyone please pass along such a quick cite for me? Many thanks, Eugene ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Shotguns as recommended for self-defense for some people over handguns
I have many of my books packed up as a result of a recent move of my study - but of the books I'd consult first would be some by Massad Ayoob such as StressFire II - Advanced Combat Shotgun which has the blurb http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PRODStore_Code=AyoobProduct_Code=STR2Category_Code=AMAB Learn to control the 12-ga. shotgun in the most rapid fire...pain-free aimed fire from the shoulder...speed reloads that don't fail under stress...proven jam-response techniques...keys to selecting a good shotgun...combat shotgun ballistics, including autopsy photos...accessories that work, and those that don't...use of other gauges...and how the power of fight or flight reflex work for you to control the most destructive, but toughest to handle, of all close-range antipersonnel weapons. The statement that the shotgun is an extremely close-range weapon is seldom disputed. Also in Ayoobs The Truth About Self-Protection Chapter 39 is The Shotgun for Self-Defense. I wrote a book review some time ago, and here is how I summed up this chapter: presentation of a bunch of myths about shotguns and what is reality - why this shouldn't be the primary self-defense firearm, but it does have uses I think that many of the objections voiced on this list against use of a shotgun for self-defense can be characterized as being against it as the primary self-defense firearm, and don't deal with the situations where it may be the preferred weapon. Some corroboration as to the shotgun's effectiveness in defense use is provided by the widespread use by police - but typically kept locked in the patrol car. -- --henry schaffer ___ To post, send message to Firearmsregprof@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/firearmsregprof Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
