Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

[Joseph Brenner]

Dear Colleagues,

My first reaction to this suggested project is that the logic and philosophy 
of information (where I am more comfortable) would have little to 
contribute. However, analogue computation is an area in which insights from 
some complex theories of information might be useful. Analogue computation 
has always appeared to me, perhaps incorrectly, as being closer to real 
processes and therefore in principle better able to model their fuzzy, 
qualitative aspects. But in some of the articles I've seen, the authors seem 
almost apologetic at not being able to claim the 'power' of the digital 
computer . . .


Best wishes,

Joseph


- Original Message - 
From: "Pridi Siregar" 

To: "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna


Thanks for the news Pedro. Sounds really exciting! As you might recall I'm 
interested in applications and I would be very keen on having a 
brainstorming session that would include pure researchers and 
application-oriented guys like me to explore technology transfer 
opportunities. I don't know if this could be part of some (possible) 
future agenda but I'm sure that business people may find it more than 
worthwile to attend such meetings! I'm sure Plamen would be interested 
too.


best!

Pridi



- Mail original -
De: "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
À: fis@listas.unizar.es
Envoyé: Vendredi 11 Juillet 2014 14:41:42
Objet: [Fis] FIS in Varna

Dear FISers,

The fis summer conference in Varna just took place 5-6 July --our 20
years of activities were celebrated too, FIS 20th. Rather unfortunately
not many people attended: half dozen from Spain related to Juan
Castellanos and me (from Madrid and Zaragoza); and a few parties around
Krassimir from Bulgaria and Ukraine. But we had a great time
(discussions and exchanges, banquets, beach) and the place is really
beautifull & prices quite affordable. The idea, quite possible to
realize,  is that every year that we do not have a plenary fis or isis
conference, we arrange a small summer school in Varna.

Among the exchanges this year, the retinue of "basic concepts" around
information generated the most intense debate--is there any concept
prior to information? Joseph's contribution was also discussed by
Krassimir addressed to the Russian colleagues (in Russian). Computer
related ontologies, new schemes to handle Big Data, and brain
exploration through AI and EEG  by a very advanced Egyptian team were
quite exciting discussion topics too. For the future, we think that
spinoff companies could be enticed to participate, developing new
products and taking profit from some of those initiatives. In any case,
the interaction with brilliant ITHEA colleagues from Bulgaria, Russia,
Ukraine,  Armenia, Belarus, Egypt... is a valuable experience itself.

And that's all!

best wishes---Pedro

--
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

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Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

[Srinandan Dasmahapatra]

I think I agree with Joseph Brenner here.  Analogue computing is linked to real 
processes, while living beings find ways of transducing information out of 
dynamical states. The graininess that information theories rely on to define 
measures may be directly linked to  physical limits in the information carriers 
(such as photons) or they might be limitations of the processing organism, 
extracting the sufficient "difference that makes a difference". And yes, 
there's often a too hasty rush to view analogue computing through pixellated 
perspectives. 

I'm not sure if this is well known to members of this list, but Bill Bialek's 
biophysics text is a profound reflection of the interplay between the analogue 
and the digital, with selection pressure forcing the sufficiency of the grainy 
"difference that makes a difference" towards a necessity for organisms, and 
hence pushing sensory systems close to the physical limits of information 
transfer.
Cheers,
Sri

 Original message 
From: Joseph Brenner  
Date:14/07/2014  18:12  (GMT+00:00) 
To: Pridi Siregar ,"Pedro C. Marijuan" 
 
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation 

Dear Colleagues,

My first reaction to this suggested project is that the logic and philosophy 
of information (where I am more comfortable) would have little to 
contribute. However, analogue computation is an area in which insights from 
some complex theories of information might be useful. Analogue computation 
has always appeared to me, perhaps incorrectly, as being closer to real 
processes and therefore in principle better able to model their fuzzy, 
qualitative aspects. But in some of the articles I've seen, the authors seem 
almost apologetic at not being able to claim the 'power' of the digital 
computer . . .

Best wishes,

Joseph


- Original Message - 
From: "Pridi Siregar" 
To: "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna


> Thanks for the news Pedro. Sounds really exciting! As you might recall I'm 
> interested in applications and I would be very keen on having a 
> brainstorming session that would include pure researchers and 
> application-oriented guys like me to explore technology transfer 
> opportunities. I don't know if this could be part of some (possible) 
> future agenda but I'm sure that business people may find it more than 
> worthwile to attend such meetings! I'm sure Plamen would be interested 
> too.
>
> best!
>
> Pridi
>
>
>
> - Mail original -
> De: "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
> À: fis@listas.unizar.es
> Envoyé: Vendredi 11 Juillet 2014 14:41:42
> Objet: [Fis] FIS in Varna
>
> Dear FISers,
>
> The fis summer conference in Varna just took place 5-6 July --our 20
> years of activities were celebrated too, FIS 20th. Rather unfortunately
> not many people attended: half dozen from Spain related to Juan
> Castellanos and me (from Madrid and Zaragoza); and a few parties around
> Krassimir from Bulgaria and Ukraine. But we had a great time
> (discussions and exchanges, banquets, beach) and the place is really
> beautifull & prices quite affordable. The idea, quite possible to
> realize,  is that every year that we do not have a plenary fis or isis
> conference, we arrange a small summer school in Varna.
>
> Among the exchanges this year, the retinue of "basic concepts" around
> information generated the most intense debate--is there any concept
> prior to information? Joseph's contribution was also discussed by
> Krassimir addressed to the Russian colleagues (in Russian). Computer
> related ontologies, new schemes to handle Big Data, and brain
> exploration through AI and EEG  by a very advanced Egyptian team were
> quite exciting discussion topics too. For the future, we think that
> spinoff companies could be enticed to participate, developing new
> products and taking profit from some of those initiatives. In any case,
> the interaction with brilliant ITHEA colleagues from Bulgaria, Russia,
> Ukraine,  Armenia, Belarus, Egypt... is a valuable experience itself.
>
> And that's all!
>
> best wishes---Pedro
>
> -- 
> -
> Pedro C. Marijuán
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
> -
>
> ___
> Fis mailing list
> Fis@l

Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

[John Collier]

Dear fis members,

I don't think that granularity per se is a 
necessary basis for the application of 
information theory to analog channels. In some 
cases it might be, and I agree that studying the 
relations between analog (continuous) and digital 
(discrete) processes is likely to be both 
interesting and productive. However the bandwidth 
of an analog channel typically can be defined 
even if there is no discreteness, for example if 
the information bearing process consists of waves 
so that the information bearing capacity is 
limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical 
processes are cyclical in some way and thus have 
a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a 
collision between particles that carries momentum 
from one to another. I can't think offhand right 
now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in 
such cases there is a finite amount of 
information transferred. In any case, Shannon 
discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth looking at.


John

At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote:
I think I agree with Joseph Brenner 
here.  Analogue computing is linked to real 
processes, while living beings find ways of 
transducing information out of dynamical states. 
The graininess that information theories rely on 
to define measures may be directly linked 
to  physical limits in the information carriers 
(such as photons) or they might be limitations 
of the processing organism, extracting the 
sufficient "difference that makes a difference". 
And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view 
analogue computing through pixellated perspectives.


I'm not sure if this is well known to members of 
this list, but Bill Bialek's biophysics text is 
a profound reflection of the interplay between 
the analogue and the digital, with selection 
pressure forcing the sufficiency of the grainy 
"difference that makes a difference" towards a 
necessity for organisms, and hence pushing 
sensory systems close to the physical limits of information transfer.

Cheers,
Sri


 Original message 
From: Joseph Brenner
Date:14/07/2014 18:12 (GMT+00:00)
To: Pridi Siregar ,"Pedro C. Marijuan"
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

Dear Colleagues,

My first reaction to this suggested project is that the logic and philosophy
of information (where I am more comfortable) would have little to
contribute. However, analogue computation is an area in which insights from
some complex theories of information might be useful. Analogue computation
has always appeared to me, perhaps incorrectly, as being closer to real
processes and therefore in principle better able to model their fuzzy,
qualitative aspects. But in some of the articles I've seen, the authors seem
almost apologetic at not being able to claim the 'power' of the digital
computer . . .

Best wishes,

Joseph


- Original Message -
From: "Pridi Siregar" 
To: "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna


> Thanks for the news Pedro. Sounds really exciting! As you might recall I'm
> interested in applications and I would be very keen on having a
> brainstorming session that would include pure researchers and
> application-oriented guys like me to explore technology transfer
> opportunities. I don't know if this could be part of some (possible)
> future agenda but I'm sure that business people may find it more than
> worthwile to attend such meetings! I'm sure Plamen would be interested
> too.
>
> best!
>
> Pridi
>
>
>
> - Mail original -
> De: "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
> À: fis@listas.unizar.es
> Envoyé: Vendredi 11 Juillet 2014 14:41:42
> Objet: [Fis] FIS in Varna
>
> Dear FISers,
>
> The fis summer conference in Varna just took place 5-6 July --our 20
> years of activities were celebrated too, FIS 20th. Rather unfortunately
> not many people attended: half dozen from Spain related to Juan
> Castellanos and me (from Madrid and Zaragoza); and a few parties around
> Krassimir from Bulgaria and Ukraine. But we had a great time
> (discussions and exchanges, banquets, beach) and the place is really
> beautifull & prices quite affordable. The idea, quite possible to
> realize,  is that every year that we do not have a plenary fis or isis
> conference, we arrange a small summer school in Varna.
>
> Among the exchanges this year, the retinue of "basic concepts" around
> information generated the most intense debate--is there any concept
> prior to information? Joseph's contribution was also discussed by
> Krassimir addressed to the Russian colleagues (in Russian). Computer
> related ontologies, new schemes to handle Big Data, and brain
> exploration through AI a

Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

[Joseph Brenner]

Dear John,

Thank you for this interesting perspective. Regarding the origin of the
"limited band width" of physical processes, could this have its origin in
some regularity other than circularity? For example, the "continuous going
back and forth" (the phrase is Botero's) between opposing attitudes or
states, alternately predominantly actual and potential?

All natural processes, then, have a capacity for continuous information
bearing. The problem is then the origin of /discreteness/, not only in your
countercase, which involves quantum particles, but at higher levels of
interactions between complex entities! For me, the only solution is that
continuity and discontinuity are properties of information which are
not totally separate from one another.

Perhaps Sri, there may be here the physical basis for the "interplay"
between analogue and digital that you see in Bialek's book, of which I have
only read the (free) introduction?

Best,

Joseph

- Original Message - 
From: "John Collier" 

To: ; "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation


Dear fis members,

I don't think that granularity per se is a
necessary basis for the application of
information theory to analog channels. In some
cases it might be, and I agree that studying the
relations between analog (continuous) and digital
(discrete) processes is likely to be both
interesting and productive. However the bandwidth
of an analog channel typically can be defined
even if there is no discreteness, for example if
the information bearing process consists of waves
so that the information bearing capacity is
limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical
processes are cyclical in some way and thus have
a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a
collision between particles that carries momentum
from one to another. I can't think offhand right
now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in
such cases there is a finite amount of
information transferred. In any case, Shannon
discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth looking
at.

John

At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote:

I think I agree with Joseph Brenner here.  Analogue computing is linked to
real processes, while living beings find ways of transducing information
out of dynamical states. The graininess that information theories rely on
to define measures may be directly linked to  physical limits in the
information carriers (such as photons) or they might be limitations of the
processing organism, extracting the sufficient "difference that makes a
difference". And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view analogue
computing through pixellated perspectives.

I'm not sure if this is well known to members of this list, but Bill
Bialek's biophysics text is a profound reflection of the interplay between
the analogue and the digital, with selection pressure forcing the
sufficiency of the grainy "difference that makes a difference" towards a
necessity for organisms, and hence pushing sensory systems close to the
physical limits of information transfer.
Cheers,
Sri


 Original message 
From: Joseph Brenner
Date:14/07/2014 18:12 (GMT+00:00)
To: Pridi Siregar ,"Pedro C. Marijuan"
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

Dear Colleagues,

My first reaction to this suggested project is that the logic and
philosophy
of information (where I am more comfortable) would have little to
contribute. However, analogue computation is an area in which insights from
some complex theories of information might be useful. Analogue computation
has always appeared to me, perhaps incorrectly, as being closer to real
processes and therefore in principle better able to model their fuzzy,
qualitative aspects. But in some of the articles I've seen, the authors
seem
almost apologetic at not being able to claim the 'power' of the digital
computer . . .

Best wishes,

Joseph


- Original Message -
From: "Pridi Siregar" 
To: "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna


> Thanks for the news Pedro. Sounds really exciting! As you might recall
> I'm
> interested in applications and I would be very keen on having a
> brainstorming session that would include pure researchers and
> application-oriented guys like me to explore technology transfer
> opportunities. I don't know if this could be part of some (possible)
> future agenda but I'm sure that business people may find it more than
> worthwile to attend such meetings! I'm sure Plamen would be interested
> too.
>
> best!
>
> Pridi
>
>
>
> - Mail original -
> De: "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
> À: fis@listas.unizar.es
>

Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro, Joseph, John, Sri, and FIS Colleagues,

At first place, I want to congratulate all of you with 20-th Anniversary of FIS!
This is remarkable achievement of FIS community!
I wish you health and good positive spirit to continue our very important, 
interesting and fruitful collaboration!  

In Varna (Bulgaria) we have nice meeting. Many thanks!
Next year Varna conference will be in a new 4 stars SPA-hotel with very large 
mineral water pool, SPA procedures, and very good prices for ALL INCLUSIVE: 
EURO 36 for a single room and EURO 32 for person in double room.

***

About  Analogue and Discrete Computations as well as Continuity and 
Discontinuity as properties of information:
We still need clear understanding of WHAT IS INFORMATION to discover WHAT ARE 
ITS PROPERTIES and WHAT IS REALLY DONE DURING COMPUTATIONS.  
Do we process information or exchange and transform energy, or reconfigure 
mater objects?
I think, it is important one to define the basic point of view (clear 
definition) before discussing in details one or another aspect of information.
Of course, many different points of view are possible and, because of this, we 
may have many different information theories and corresponded implementations.

It will be very useful to prepare a list of definitions we will use (a part of 
all ones) with links to corresponded bibliography.
Mark Burgin, Wolfgang Hofkirchner, John D. Collier, Luciano Floridi,  as well 
as several other colleagues, already have published nice surveys or theories 
(incl. LIR of Joseph Brener!), so what we have to do now is to select 
definitions appropriate for our discussions. 
Is it possible ? 

Friendly regards
Krassimir
presid...@ithea.org  










-Original Message- 
From: Joseph Brenner 
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 4:14 PM 
To: fis ; Pedro C. Marijuan ; John Collier 
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation 

Dear John,

Thank you for this interesting perspective. Regarding the origin of the
"limited band width" of physical processes, could this have its origin in
some regularity other than circularity? For example, the "continuous going
back and forth" (the phrase is Botero's) between opposing attitudes or
states, alternately predominantly actual and potential?

All natural processes, then, have a capacity for continuous information
bearing. The problem is then the origin of /discreteness/, not only in your
countercase, which involves quantum particles, but at higher levels of
interactions between complex entities! For me, the only solution is that
continuity and discontinuity are properties of information which are
not totally separate from one another.

Perhaps Sri, there may be here the physical basis for the "interplay"
between analogue and digital that you see in Bialek's book, of which I have
only read the (free) introduction?

Best,

Joseph

- Original Message - 
From: "John Collier" 
To: ; "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation


Dear fis members,

I don't think that granularity per se is a
necessary basis for the application of
information theory to analog channels. In some
cases it might be, and I agree that studying the
relations between analog (continuous) and digital
(discrete) processes is likely to be both
interesting and productive. However the bandwidth
of an analog channel typically can be defined
even if there is no discreteness, for example if
the information bearing process consists of waves
so that the information bearing capacity is
limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical
processes are cyclical in some way and thus have
a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a
collision between particles that carries momentum
from one to another. I can't think offhand right
now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in
such cases there is a finite amount of
information transferred. In any case, Shannon
discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth looking
at.

John

At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote:
>I think I agree with Joseph Brenner here.  Analogue computing is linked to
>real processes, while living beings find ways of transducing information
>out of dynamical states. The graininess that information theories rely on
>to define measures may be directly linked to  physical limits in the
>information carriers (such as photons) or they might be limitations of the
>processing organism, extracting the sufficient "difference that makes a
>difference". And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view analogue
>computing through pixellated perspectives.
>
>I'm not sure if this is well known to members of this list, but Bill
>Bialek's biophysics text is a profound reflection of the interplay between
>the analogue and the digital, with selection pressure forcing the
&g

Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

[John Collier]

At 03:14 PM 2014-07-15, you wrote:
Dear John,
Thank you for this interesting perspective. Regarding the origin of
the
"limited band width" of physical processes, could this have its
origin in
some regularity other than circularity? For example, the "continuous
going
back and forth" (the phrase is Botero's) between opposing attitudes
or
states, alternately predominantly actual and potential?
My understanding of waves is that is how they work, also similar
phenomena like pendula and oscillating springs, not to mention
orbits.

All natural processes, then,
have a capacity for continuous information
bearing. The problem is then the origin of /discreteness/, not only in
your
countercase, which involves quantum particles, but at higher levels
of
interactions between complex entities! For me, the only solution is
that
continuity and discontinuity are properties of information which are
not totally separate from one another.
I was thinking more of billiard ball collisions, not ones that depend on
quantum states. In my article, "Causation is the transfer of
information" (available on my web site) and expanded in 



Information, causation and computation (2012.

Information and Computation: Essays on Scientific and Philosophical
Understanding of Foundations of Information and Computation, Ed by
Gordana Dodig Crnkovic and Mark Burgin, World Scientific)
I use a formal notion of an information channel to deal with
information transmission in classical systems. There are special problems
when the dynamics are not computable, but I explain how the idea can work
there as well. I do, however, need more formal proofs of sufficiency at
this time, though. Fortunately, my approach does not require computation
of the amount of information transferred, so I suppose it could be
infinite and still work, but I doubt it is infinite in real processes. I
suppose I will have to work that out at some point, one way or the
other.
John




Professor John
Collier
colli...@ukzn.ac.za
Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South
Africa
T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292   F:
+27 (31) 260 3031

Http://web.ncf.ca/collier



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Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

[Srinandan Dasmahapatra]

Hi all,

My take is that measure theory and sigma algebra had to be introduced by folks 
like Kolmogorov, Lebesgue,etc to sort out issues of counting that involves 
discrete and continuous variables in event space. However, that is not what is 
required to address information as processed in physical and biological 
processes. It's more to do with the basic tenets of what can be distinguished 
by a process. The availability of colour is of little use to the colour blind.  
Transfer of momentum upon collision of particles is surely a casual process, 
but to determine the state, whether the substance is a gas or a liquid, that 
bears no information. 

The example of wavelength limited information points to a short distance cutoff 
 that's discrete.

Causality is generic. Useful information is quite contextual and specific. 
Finding the relevant variables for description of the world (contextually 
defined) is always the nub.  

Regarding Bialek's book, there are a large number of examples, ranging from b 
visual systems responding to single photons, to fly embryos laying down precise 
spatial boundaries for protein expression that can be counted as a bit count 
even though the morphogen can be viewed as a continuous signal. 

Cheers,
Sri

 Original message 
From: John Collier  
Date:15/07/2014  06:19  (GMT+00:00) 
To: fis@listas.unizar.es,"Pedro C. Marijuan"  
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation 

Dear fis members,

I don't think that granularity per se is a 
necessary basis for the application of 
information theory to analog channels. In some 
cases it might be, and I agree that studying the 
relations between analog (continuous) and digital 
(discrete) processes is likely to be both 
interesting and productive. However the bandwidth 
of an analog channel typically can be defined 
even if there is no discreteness, for example if 
the information bearing process consists of waves 
so that the information bearing capacity is 
limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical 
processes are cyclical in some way and thus have 
a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a 
collision between particles that carries momentum 
from one to another. I can't think offhand right 
now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in 
such cases there is a finite amount of 
information transferred. In any case, Shannon 
discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth looking at.

John

At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote:
>I think I agree with Joseph Brenner 
>here.  Analogue computing is linked to real 
>processes, while living beings find ways of 
>transducing information out of dynamical states. 
>The graininess that information theories rely on 
>to define measures may be directly linked 
>to  physical limits in the information carriers 
>(such as photons) or they might be limitations 
>of the processing organism, extracting the 
>sufficient "difference that makes a difference". 
>And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view 
>analogue computing through pixellated perspectives.
>
>I'm not sure if this is well known to members of 
>this list, but Bill Bialek's biophysics text is 
>a profound reflection of the interplay between 
>the analogue and the digital, with selection 
>pressure forcing the sufficiency of the grainy 
>"difference that makes a difference" towards a 
>necessity for organisms, and hence pushing 
>sensory systems close to the physical limits of information transfer.
>Cheers,
>Sri
>
>
> Original message --------
>From: Joseph Brenner
>Date:14/07/2014 18:12 (GMT+00:00)
>To: Pridi Siregar ,"Pedro C. Marijuan"
>Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
>Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
>
>Dear Colleagues,
>
>My first reaction to this suggested project is that the logic and philosophy
>of information (where I am more comfortable) would have little to
>contribute. However, analogue computation is an area in which insights from
>some complex theories of information might be useful. Analogue computation
>has always appeared to me, perhaps incorrectly, as being closer to real
>processes and therefore in principle better able to model their fuzzy,
>qualitative aspects. But in some of the articles I've seen, the authors seem
>almost apologetic at not being able to claim the 'power' of the digital
>computer . . .
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Joseph
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Pridi Siregar" 
>To: "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
>Cc: 
>Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 4:35 PM
>Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna
>
>
> > Thanks for the news Pedro. Sounds really exciting! As you might recall I'm
> > interested in applications and I would be 

Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

[Francesco Rizzo]

Cari colleghi,
seguo, per quel che capisco, il dibattito che si sviluppa.V'ha chi tende a
impostarlo sul piano pratico, tecnologico e ingegneristico e chi invece
predilige i suoi aspetti teorico-filosofici e scientifici in senso classico
e tradizionale. La mia esperienza di economista che ha lavorato nelle
Facoltà di Architettura e Ingegneria mi spinge a ritenere  che la legge
fondamentale della tecno-scienza e della conoscenza relative alle prassi
esistenziali e ai domini cognitivi sia la legge dell'Informazione. Nella
"Nuova economia" che ho elaborato hanno un ruolo paradigmatico
fondamentale: episteme, teoria del valore (tendente a determinare le
ragioni dello scambio tra venditori e compratori), sistemi complessi e
ad-attivi non sempre integrabili (matematicamente), processi di
trasinformazione. Desidero rassicurare coloro che fanno fatica a
considerare opportuno approfondire gli aspetti filosofici della scienza
economica che  sono tra quelli (non molti per la verità) che hanno
criticato l'aberrante teoria neoclassica o marginalistica e previsto sin da
"Il giudizio di valore" (!971) la crisi speculativo-finanziaria nella quale
siamo caduti senza, ancora, potercene liberare. Al solito, non penso
lontanamente di  assumere atteggiamenti arroganti e presuntuosi. Io sono un
"poverino esponenziale" che ha scoperto tante cose senza averne merito,
anche perché credo che la teoria sia la più pratica  e più semplice della
pratiche.
Un abbraccio augurale, soprattutto per i giovani e/o per quelli che sono
ricchi di anni di giovinezza nel Signore.
Francesco Rizzo.


2014-07-15 20:27 GMT+02:00 Srinandan Dasmahapatra :

> Hi all,
>
> My take is that measure theory and sigma algebra had to be introduced by
> folks like Kolmogorov, Lebesgue,etc to sort out issues of counting that
> involves discrete and continuous variables in event space. However, that is
> not what is required to address information as processed in physical and
> biological processes. It's more to do with the basic tenets of what can be
> distinguished by a process. The availability of colour is of little use to
> the colour blind.  Transfer of momentum upon collision of particles is
> surely a casual process, but to determine the state, whether the substance
> is a gas or a liquid, that bears no information.
>
> The example of wavelength limited information points to a short distance
> cutoff  that's discrete.
>
> Causality is generic. Useful information is quite contextual and specific.
> Finding the relevant variables for description of the world (contextually
> defined) is always the nub.
>
> Regarding Bialek's book, there are a large number of examples, ranging
> from b visual systems responding to single photons, to fly embryos laying
> down precise spatial boundaries for protein expression that can be counted
> as a bit count even though the morphogen can be viewed as a continuous
> signal.
>
> Cheers,
> Sri
>
>
> -------- Original message ----
> From: John Collier
> Date:15/07/2014 06:19 (GMT+00:00)
> To: fis@listas.unizar.es,"Pedro C. Marijuan"
> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
>
> Dear fis members,
>
> I don't think that granularity per se is a
> necessary basis for the application of
> information theory to analog channels. In some
> cases it might be, and I agree that studying the
> relations between analog (continuous) and digital
> (discrete) processes is likely to be both
> interesting and productive. However the bandwidth
> of an analog channel typically can be defined
> even if there is no discreteness, for example if
> the information bearing process consists of waves
> so that the information bearing capacity is
> limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical
> processes are cyclical in some way and thus have
> a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a
> collision between particles that carries momentum
> from one to another. I can't think offhand right
> now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in
> such cases there is a finite amount of
> information transferred. In any case, Shannon
> discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth
> looking at.
>
> John
>
> At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote:
> >I think I agree with Joseph Brenner
> >here.  Analogue computing is linked to real
> >processes, while living beings find ways of
> >transducing information out of dynamical states.
> >The graininess that information theories rely on
> >to define measures may be directly linked
> >to  physical limits in the information carriers
> >(such as photons) or they might be limitations
> >of the processing organism, extracting the
> >sufficien

Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

[Pridi Siregar]

Dear John and all,

The limiting case of the particle collision (pure elastic collision) can be 
represented by a dirac impulse whose spectral content ranges over all the 
frequencies. I have a question: What does it mean to have a physical event with 
an infinite bandwith while its information content is finite ?

Best


Pridi

 


- Mail original -
De: "John Collier" 
À: fis@listas.unizar.es, "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
Envoyé: Mardi 15 Juillet 2014 07:19:50
Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

Dear fis members,

I don't think that granularity per se is a 
necessary basis for the application of 
information theory to analog channels. In some 
cases it might be, and I agree that studying the 
relations between analog (continuous) and digital 
(discrete) processes is likely to be both 
interesting and productive. However the bandwidth 
of an analog channel typically can be defined 
even if there is no discreteness, for example if 
the information bearing process consists of waves 
so that the information bearing capacity is 
limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical 
processes are cyclical in some way and thus have 
a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a 
collision between particles that carries momentum 
from one to another. I can't think offhand right 
now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in 
such cases there is a finite amount of 
information transferred. In any case, Shannon 
discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth looking at.

John

At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote:
>I think I agree with Joseph Brenner 
>here.  Analogue computing is linked to real 
>processes, while living beings find ways of 
>transducing information out of dynamical states. 
>The graininess that information theories rely on 
>to define measures may be directly linked 
>to  physical limits in the information carriers 
>(such as photons) or they might be limitations 
>of the processing organism, extracting the 
>sufficient "difference that makes a difference". 
>And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view 
>analogue computing through pixellated perspectives.
>
>I'm not sure if this is well known to members of 
>this list, but Bill Bialek's biophysics text is 
>a profound reflection of the interplay between 
>the analogue and the digital, with selection 
>pressure forcing the sufficiency of the grainy 
>"difference that makes a difference" towards a 
>necessity for organisms, and hence pushing 
>sensory systems close to the physical limits of information transfer.
>Cheers,
>Sri
>
>
> Original message --------
>From: Joseph Brenner
>Date:14/07/2014 18:12 (GMT+00:00)
>To: Pridi Siregar ,"Pedro C. Marijuan"
>Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
>Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
>
>Dear Colleagues,
>
>My first reaction to this suggested project is that the logic and philosophy
>of information (where I am more comfortable) would have little to
>contribute. However, analogue computation is an area in which insights from
>some complex theories of information might be useful. Analogue computation
>has always appeared to me, perhaps incorrectly, as being closer to real
>processes and therefore in principle better able to model their fuzzy,
>qualitative aspects. But in some of the articles I've seen, the authors seem
>almost apologetic at not being able to claim the 'power' of the digital
>computer . . .
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Joseph
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Pridi Siregar" 
>To: "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
>Cc: 
>Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 4:35 PM
>Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna
>
>
> > Thanks for the news Pedro. Sounds really exciting! As you might recall I'm
> > interested in applications and I would be very keen on having a
> > brainstorming session that would include pure researchers and
> > application-oriented guys like me to explore technology transfer
> > opportunities. I don't know if this could be part of some (possible)
> > future agenda but I'm sure that business people may find it more than
> > worthwile to attend such meetings! I'm sure Plamen would be interested
> > too.
> >
> > best!
> >
> > Pridi
> >
> >
> >
> > - Mail original -
> > De: "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
> > À: fis@listas.unizar.es
> > Envoyé: Vendredi 11 Juillet 2014 14:41:42
> > Objet: [Fis] FIS in Varna
> >
> > Dear FISers,
> >
> > The fis summer conference in Varna just took place 5-6 July --our 20
> > years of activities were celebrated too, FIS 20th. Rather unfortunately
> > not man

Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

[Jerry LR Chandler]

Pridi:

Are you mixing apples with citrus fruits?

Pure elastic collision are pre-suppose mass particles.
Electrical particles in this context do what?

Cheers

Jerry



On Jul 18, 2014, at 3:21 AM, Pridi Siregar wrote:

> Dear John and all,
> 
> The limiting case of the particle collision (pure elastic collision) can be 
> represented by a dirac impulse whose spectral content ranges over all the 
> frequencies. I have a question: What does it mean to have a physical event 
> with an infinite bandwith while its information content is finite ?
> 
> Best
> 
> 
> Pridi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Mail original -
> De: "John Collier" 
> À: fis@listas.unizar.es, "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
> Envoyé: Mardi 15 Juillet 2014 07:19:50
> Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
> 
> Dear fis members,
> 
> I don't think that granularity per se is a 
> necessary basis for the application of 
> information theory to analog channels. In some 
> cases it might be, and I agree that studying the 
> relations between analog (continuous) and digital 
> (discrete) processes is likely to be both 
> interesting and productive. However the bandwidth 
> of an analog channel typically can be defined 
> even if there is no discreteness, for example if 
> the information bearing process consists of waves 
> so that the information bearing capacity is 
> limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical 
> processes are cyclical in some way and thus have 
> a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a 
> collision between particles that carries momentum 
> from one to another. I can't think offhand right 
> now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in 
> such cases there is a finite amount of 
> information transferred. In any case, Shannon 
> discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth looking 
> at.
> 
> John
> 
> At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote:
>> I think I agree with Joseph Brenner 
>> here.  Analogue computing is linked to real 
>> processes, while living beings find ways of 
>> transducing information out of dynamical states. 
>> The graininess that information theories rely on 
>> to define measures may be directly linked 
>> to  physical limits in the information carriers 
>> (such as photons) or they might be limitations 
>> of the processing organism, extracting the 
>> sufficient "difference that makes a difference". 
>> And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view 
>> analogue computing through pixellated perspectives.
>> 
>> I'm not sure if this is well known to members of 
>> this list, but Bill Bialek's biophysics text is 
>> a profound reflection of the interplay between 
>> the analogue and the digital, with selection 
>> pressure forcing the sufficiency of the grainy 
>> "difference that makes a difference" towards a 
>> necessity for organisms, and hence pushing 
>> sensory systems close to the physical limits of information transfer.
>> Cheers,
>> Sri
>> 
>> 
>>  Original message 
>> From: Joseph Brenner
>> Date:14/07/2014 18:12 (GMT+00:00)
>> To: Pridi Siregar ,"Pedro C. Marijuan"
>> Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
>> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
>> 
>> Dear Colleagues,
>> 
>> My first reaction to this suggested project is that the logic and philosophy
>> of information (where I am more comfortable) would have little to
>> contribute. However, analogue computation is an area in which insights from
>> some complex theories of information might be useful. Analogue computation
>> has always appeared to me, perhaps incorrectly, as being closer to real
>> processes and therefore in principle better able to model their fuzzy,
>> qualitative aspects. But in some of the articles I've seen, the authors seem
>> almost apologetic at not being able to claim the 'power' of the digital
>> computer . . .
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> Joseph
>> 
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Pridi Siregar" 
>> To: "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
>> Cc: 
>> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 4:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna
>> 
>> 
>>> Thanks for the news Pedro. Sounds really exciting! As you might recall I'm
>>> interested in applications and I would be very keen on having a
>>> brainstorming session that would include pure researchers and
>>> application-oriented guys like me to explore technology transfer
>>> oppor

Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

[Pridi Siregar]

I was thinking about particles with mass...:-)

If anyone has an idea concerning my question thanks for the reply. I'm totally 
ignorant concerning deep thoughts on the nature of information.

Pridi





- Mail original -
De: "Jerry LR Chandler" 
À: "Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information 
Information Science" 
Cc: "John Collier" , "Pridi Siregar" 

Envoyé: Dimanche 20 Juillet 2014 05:12:53
Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

Pridi:

Are you mixing apples with citrus fruits?

Pure elastic collision are pre-suppose mass particles.
Electrical particles in this context do what?

Cheers

Jerry



On Jul 18, 2014, at 3:21 AM, Pridi Siregar wrote:

> Dear John and all,
> 
> The limiting case of the particle collision (pure elastic collision) can be 
> represented by a dirac impulse whose spectral content ranges over all the 
> frequencies. I have a question: What does it mean to have a physical event 
> with an infinite bandwith while its information content is finite ?
> 
> Best
> 
> 
> Pridi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Mail original -
> De: "John Collier" 
> À: fis@listas.unizar.es, "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
> Envoyé: Mardi 15 Juillet 2014 07:19:50
> Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
> 
> Dear fis members,
> 
> I don't think that granularity per se is a 
> necessary basis for the application of 
> information theory to analog channels. In some 
> cases it might be, and I agree that studying the 
> relations between analog (continuous) and digital 
> (discrete) processes is likely to be both 
> interesting and productive. However the bandwidth 
> of an analog channel typically can be defined 
> even if there is no discreteness, for example if 
> the information bearing process consists of waves 
> so that the information bearing capacity is 
> limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical 
> processes are cyclical in some way and thus have 
> a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a 
> collision between particles that carries momentum 
> from one to another. I can't think offhand right 
> now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in 
> such cases there is a finite amount of 
> information transferred. In any case, Shannon 
> discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth looking 
> at.
> 
> John
> 
> At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote:
>> I think I agree with Joseph Brenner 
>> here.  Analogue computing is linked to real 
>> processes, while living beings find ways of 
>> transducing information out of dynamical states. 
>> The graininess that information theories rely on 
>> to define measures may be directly linked 
>> to  physical limits in the information carriers 
>> (such as photons) or they might be limitations 
>> of the processing organism, extracting the 
>> sufficient "difference that makes a difference". 
>> And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view 
>> analogue computing through pixellated perspectives.
>> 
>> I'm not sure if this is well known to members of 
>> this list, but Bill Bialek's biophysics text is 
>> a profound reflection of the interplay between 
>> the analogue and the digital, with selection 
>> pressure forcing the sufficiency of the grainy 
>> "difference that makes a difference" towards a 
>> necessity for organisms, and hence pushing 
>> sensory systems close to the physical limits of information transfer.
>> Cheers,
>> Sri
>> 
>> 
>>  Original message 
>> From: Joseph Brenner
>> Date:14/07/2014 18:12 (GMT+00:00)
>> To: Pridi Siregar ,"Pedro C. Marijuan"
>> Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
>> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
>> 
>> Dear Colleagues,
>> 
>> My first reaction to this suggested project is that the logic and philosophy
>> of information (where I am more comfortable) would have little to
>> contribute. However, analogue computation is an area in which insights from
>> some complex theories of information might be useful. Analogue computation
>> has always appeared to me, perhaps incorrectly, as being closer to real
>> processes and therefore in principle better able to model their fuzzy,
>> qualitative aspects. But in some of the articles I've seen, the authors seem
>> almost apologetic at not being able to claim the 'power' of the digital
>> computer . . .
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> Joseph
>> 
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> From: &q

Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

[Karl Javorszky]

Dear Colleagues,



 good that FIS is up again after this computer glitch.

It is encouraging, that since the resurrection the focus of FIS appears to
be sharpened. Let me quote Pridi: “… brainstorming session that would
include pure researchers and application oriented guys … … business people
may find it more than worthwhile to attend such meetings! …”



 FIS does have a solid background in mathematics and formal logic. In 1995,
that is 19 years ago!, Pedro encouraged me to summarise my research in
sequences and contemporary assemblies into a book: “Zaragoza Lectures on
Granularity Algebra”. Since then, there was hardly one year that I have not
contributed to FIS and its friendly organisations an input relating to the
formal logic underlying Nature’s machinations, with specific regard to
genetics, the archetype of interactions between a sequence and a
non-sequenced entity.



 During the years, what was at first cumbersome and complicated to
understand and to explain, has morphed into something that is easy to
explain but requires flexibility to understand. The explanation, how the
interaction between the DNA and the cell works – as an information
deciphering exercise – is of course of the “no-na” category, as Nature
cannot and will not use illogical or questionable methods. It is us who
have built the fundaments of our thinking in such a fashion that our
perception and cognition filter out the relevant details. One has to go
down to pre-school, or kindergarten level to point out what is to be looked
at so that this detail can then be used like any other tool of arithmetic.



 Presently, I work on a pre-school level teaching material that should help
soften the ingrained inhibitions of perception. There appear to be extreme
difficulties among well-educated people to believe it possible that it is
useful to re-learn what we have learnt at elementary school about
arithmetic. The dès-illusionnement appears to be comparable to that
experienced by our forefathers learning that the Earth is round or that
evolution means that we are sharing genetics with apes. The paradigm
changes come after circumstances have changed, and in this case, they have:
computers allow us to look at numbers in bulk, until we find patterns. This
method was not accessible to researchers of previous generations.



 Be as it may, the fact is, that to understand a process, we need to be
able to model it by using numbers. This is where scientific, serious,
industrial accounting comes into play. This discipline has to agree both to
the laws of logic and arithmetic, and also be useful and focusable on
specific tasks. There is no nonsense in accounting: if the sequence is a
different one, there has to be an identifiable conglomerate of non-linear
consequences that are re-traceable to the change in the sequence. This task
has now been solved, in such a fashion that the results and the mechanism
is communicable and understandable. One wonders about Mendel, whose rules
of genetics he himself knew and understood way before his death, which
preceded by 17 years the general acknowledgement that he indeed has had
outlined and explained Mendel’s laws.



 There will be a FIS symposium in Vienna, the city I live in, next year.
Please let me organize a sub-workshop on Modeling Genetic Information
Transfer By Using Extensions To Arithmetic. Maybe, no one will turn up, but
then not much is lost.



 In www.oeis.org there are two sequences registered that define the central
concepts quite well (A235647, A242615). There is an article in ITHEA
*http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol21/ijita-fv21.htm
* called Essay on Order.
The accounting mechanism is outlined in *www.tautomat.com
*. There, one will also find the contributions to
FIS of last year, called Learn to Count in Twelve Easy Steps.



 Showing the nuts and bolts of how the translation linear-spatial-linear
actually works is not a sexy subject. Accountants, watch-makers,
hair-splitters and sudoku-lovers may find it hilarious, albeit maybe a bit
risqué. There are some unusual approaches to additions presented there,
many taboos are broken, and many hearts will be broken, but absolutely no
laws of logic or data processing.



 But then, again, this is what pure research does for a living. If number
theorists could not deliver a good punch every once a while, the profession
would have died out. Let me hope that the commercial and application guys
are willing to shop. There is, indeed, something on offer coming from pure
science, from basic research into the formal properties of logical
sentences. The invention is extremely practical, and – once one has
familiarized the usage of the amount-place accounting assignment mechanism
– not more complicated than trigonometry, e.g. Its usage includes
information packaging and decompressing, as many ways of en- and decryption
as there can exist natural languages, and lots of exact definitions f