hear hear
This message is from: Ursula Brian Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 'I have not heard anyone say that the purpose of evaluating those stallions is to limit the gene pool. Instead I am hearing them say it is to improve a breeders' tools for selection. ' thank you, thank you thank you TamaraAND OTHER GOOD POINT YOU and TERESSA HAVE MADE This discussion is such drivelyes, the research may say that and could possibly be correct BUT at the end of the day we will STILL have CHOICES. Your 'research' and time invested is admirable, Ruithie and is obviously giving you something to do but the application just doesn't fly in North America...we will have a diverse gene pool by virtue of CHOICES...yes, Norway is different and should heed the research more simply because of their 'specific' size and nature of their evaluation system and licensing of stallions...we have seen stallions there go unlisencensed simply because the bloodline has been overused.that would not be an issue in N.A. Ok, so I'm going to ask you a simple question. Why, if you are so dead set against evaluation of stock, do you tout and site specific bloodlines and lineages (that have been evaluated and are well known in the Fjord community ...ie Gjest, Samstein, etc) in your advertisements. Obviously these stallions are well known BECAUSE they have been evaluated and have proven themselves at some point. Why not have your stallion stand on his own merit? |OR a better question still...why not have him evaluated so you can give your customers honest answers about his merits or possible shortcomings ? ok that's 3 questions but what the heckursula...enough said .
Evaluations and other things
This message is from: Ron Sherrie Dayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi all, I guess I missed something, I don't remember ever hearing or reading that having stallions or mares evaluated would lead to a shrinking of the gene pool. If the information from the evaluated horses is used as an Educational tool it will only strengthen the breed as a whole. Next I have a question about bees and stock tanks, we're having a real problem with the bees and our horses stock tanks. I even put out a water dish for the bees but they keep going to the stock tanks and falling in and drowning and we have to clean out dozens of dead bees everyday. Can anyone offer a suggestion? Finally, thanks to all of you that have sent in your stuff for our book, we still need many more pages from those of you that had responded so we're going to extend the deadline to Dec 31, 2005. We have a publisher lined up and are trying to keep the cost down to under 20.00. Farms that send in their pages will bet a discount. Thanks to Beth and Sandy for taking on the job of Newsletter Editors. I know that they'll do a good job. Sherrie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Bees
This message is from: The Mercers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Serve them a deep pan of beer. Also, put some big goldfish in your water tank. Taffy in 100*+ Kennewick, WA
Re: Evaluations and other things
This message is from: Mike May, Registrar NFHR [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 05:36 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote: This message is from: Ron Sherrie Dayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Next I have a question about bees and stock tanks, we're having a real problem with the bees and our horses stock tanks. I even put out a water dish for the bees but they keep going to the stock tanks and falling in and drowning and we have to clean out dozens of dead bees everyday. Can anyone offer a suggestion? Sure - See if you can find some Bee sized life rings for them to get on when they get tired so they don't drown. ;-) === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Libby info
This message is from: Lauren Sellars [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello List I am surprised not to find Libby show under the schedualed events on our NFHR site. I would like to get the show package please.Whom should I contact. P.S I love the letters of riding and fun.Our greatest pleasure at this time of the year is riding in the river. What a hoot.
evaluation
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I just want to tell everyone that I went to a meeting about the Evaluation in Fallbrook, CA and it sounds like it is going to be a lot of fun. Beginners are welcome. The Vestlandshest USA Club are working very hard to make it a very friendly fun experience for all. Hurry and get you registration in! Hope to see you all there. Katherine Kramer 23355 Modoc Ct Perris, CA 92570 951-657-2505
food for thought
This message is from: Warren Stockwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] A quote from the Minutes The board discussed a members proposal that every stallion be evaluated. The consensus of the board was that such a recommendation needs additional study and was tabled for the time being. Bully for the board to realize such a change should be very well thought out as well as researched. the complications that could come from this are a problem for the breed. However the education could be greatly used. Fine line which needs to be walked carefully. I am glad that the Board has the foresight to put this in good hands to protect and preserve the Fjord breed. There are pros and cons to everything I see this could be a tool for education. I also see there could be a false sense of security in breeding to a score/ ribbon color. Not all put as much thought into breeding as most of you do. Thank You to the BOD, Roberta
disgusted
This message is from: Warren Stockwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is a lot of educational food for thought on this list if those of you who will remain nameless will cut out the hot air and personal attaches! I for one have gotten lots of education and have been doing some information searching for myself regarding the current tread. Thanks to those who offer education, and food for thought. To those who sling manure a wise man thinks twice before he speak twice. you could be damaging your own credibility. On a brighter note I thought I would tell you about my first trail ride in probably 3 years. I took out My most magnificent Fjord Kaari who was wise eager to please and solid. Went with a spooky Arabian and My daughter had my reliable QH. I expected a bit of excitement so I took the not completely solid Fjord and she was the picture of perfect!! She made it clear she was sensible and I was wrong. I was thrilled with her progress : )) No wonder there are so many of us smitten with this breed and so eager to do well by it. Roberta Roberta
good ole' fjords
This message is from: Linda Lottie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Listers! It is so darn hot in western WI today. I and my dogs are holed up in my office with the air blasting. So sick of this heat! Anyway, wanted to share a fjord story with you. Last weekend Kristin Lee and her son and his friend came to my new little ranch for a sleepover. While here, we decided to fit a harness on Hasse.3 year old fjord gelding who just returned from driving camp with the Amish in southern MN. The harness looked good, out to the arena we went and put him to the cart. Just as we were going to get infloop, his bridle fell right off his head and landed in the ground. In fact, we did not even notice it at first.and finally, Kristin saidoh look, Hasse lost his bridle. Now, mind you, we are ready to go..and, no bridle. Hasse did not move a muscle. I walked over, picked up the bridle laying on the ground and returned it to his head.tightened it up a bit.and, off we went. We laughed like crazy !!! ONLY a fjord!!! I do have to tell you, however, the Amish man who trained Hasse sent his wife (mother of a new baby) to TOWN with Hasse hitched to their buggy.10 mile round trip. She had not driven him before. I knew then that my boy had learned his job well. Thankfully, the heat is going to drop into the low 80's by weeks end. Miss Anne (for those of you who know her) is done working on Thursday is taking three weeks off for R R before starting vet school at the U of M on August 28th. She will spend time at the ranch and we will take Hasse-boy out and about and let him do what he learned so well. Next, Hasse and Sven as a team... Any tips on team harnesses? Am leaning toward nylon with leather or is it beta??? Stay cool, MN and WI ...Linda Baker Lottie, near Grantsburg, WI _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
Re: genetics discussion - not inflammatory.
This message is from: Warren Stockwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank You!!! Kathy in so Idaho Roberta
Re:Ruth
This message is from: Mariposa Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Ruth Bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Mariposa Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ruth, I never suggested what you stated below. Would you please retract the statement. Mark McGinley That your suggestion of evaluating all stallions leads to a narrowed breeding pool? It's not entirely clear to me what your original proposal entailed of course, but even the most benign directive for stallion selection could lead to eventual inbreeding. That's a true statement. Unfortunately, this is the response I expected from you Ruth. I was pretty clear in what my proposal included - Education of stallion owners. How clear do I need to spell it out to you? Let's not be libelous Your credibility gets lost in your inability to admit that there are two sides to most issues and that another opinion has merit. There are people who create and there are people who do nothing but critic that work thinking they provide a service. Many fine people in the past created excellent evaluation programs in different countries that WILL benefit the breed. Many fine people continually improve upon these systems and work for the future. And then there are the critics who only bash these programs and do nothing to create. I don't mind reading their views though because once in a while there is something of merit that can be channeled into a positive direction instead of the negative way it was originally stated. The problem I do have though is that you have put in permanent record statements that were never said and refuse to retract them. This isn't the first time and probably won't be the last. Steve, in the past you asked someone to leave this list and I'm wondering when you are going to ask Ruth? Mark McGinley Mariposa Farm
Re: fjordhorse-digest V2005 #175
This message is from: jgayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] All of this talk about trying to make the breed better or more intelligent, workable etc. seems to me the best example of what can happen is shown in our politicians!!! Jean G. Author 'The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
Re: Burning question for Ruthie
This message is from: John Eunice [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regardless of what anyone has said -- topics or statements criticized or commented on -- no one should EVER, EVER be compared to Osama Bin Laden. Gayle -- within your question WHY are you so bent on criticizing, terrorizing (Osama Bin Bushnell?) this program? has to be one of the worst put downs I have read on the Fjord Digest. I don't know either one of you but I'm sure Ruth doesn't deserve this. ~Eunice Deere Country Fjords in sunny s-w Ontario
Herald
This message is from: Reena Giola [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is this the Spring issue of the Herald? I hope I get a copy of it. I know I wasn't eligible for the winter one. How do we check if we are on the list to receive it? Reena
Re: burning question
This message is from: Ruth Bushnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Mariposa Farm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ruth, I never suggested what you stated below. Would you please retract the statement. Mark McGinley That your suggestion of evaluating all stallions leads to a narrowed breeding pool? It's not entirely clear to me what your original proposal entailed of course, but even the most benign directive for stallion selection could lead to eventual inbreeding. That's a true statement. Coincidentally, just this morning I received a letter from a world class geneticist in Norway, Hanne Fjoerdingby Olsen, who has done considerable research on this subject, has written documented works, etc. (along with well known Dr.Bjornstad) he states, (direct quote)... I have not been working with Norwegian Fjord horses, but I have worked with two other Norwegian breeds, the Dole horse and the Nordland horse, and calculated the development of their level of inbreeding and their genetic diversity. But their breeding history is somewhat similar with the Fjord Horse, and they have followed approximately the same breeding strategy, which is selection of stallions and a wide use of matador stallions, meaning that a few (very good) stallions have been used exceptionally often and have a lot of progeny. This kind of breeding will function as a bottleneck in a population and is not healthy in a LONG TERM view, because it will increase the inbreeding level in the population. Since I have not done any calculations on the Norwegian Fjord Horse, I can of course not say anything about this breeds' state. But our opinion is that among the Norwegian breeds, the Fjord Horse is the breed coping best with the inbreeding situation, BECAUSE they HAVE STARTED to focus more on the USE of the horses, instead of the EXTERIOR. And they have, of course, subpopulations in foreign countries. (end quote) I found this somewhat reassuring, to learn that Norway is keeping up with science and starting to focus more on the genotypical than the phenotypical (inner versus outer). This concern about over-selection leading to a breed's downfall will mean little to anyone that does not try and grasp understanding of what a breeding population is. A genetic population is the sum total of all possible alleles within any specific breed. The breed begins with a complete set or quota of all possible genetic combinations... like, for instance, a large square of fabric that has individual different colored squares, (phenotype-outer) woven together by underlying strands, (genotype-inner) which have the ability to recreate themselves perpetually. We can choose which squares we want to recreate, but if we always choose the blue square for eye appeal, after a while the yellow, green, and some other squares have become extinct and that portion of the whole genetic set is gone forever! We have the ability to shrink the square through our breeding choices. Along with their exit went that portion of the fabric that may have held great intrinsic qualities not visible to the naked eye. The portion that remains, the blue square offspring, begin to color in those remaining missing squares, (inbreeding) because they have incrementally accumulated a majority of blue alleles. (overlapping genes). So eventually the entire square is blue.. they all appear alike, but the offspring have lost vital genetic material they cannot regain and eventually the breed deteriorates through blue saturation. NOW is the time that we can preserve and protect the future of the Fjord horse, the basic function of a breed's registry, by research and resources based on scientific information and not the proverbial well traveled calf-path of traditional over-selection. Again, I challenge anyone to find a bona-fide geneticist that currently supports breeding selection based on blue ribbon choices.. you will discover, without exception, they ALL warn against it. Ruth Bushnell, nw mt US
Reference the new Herald
This message is from: M Korose [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi lIst Sandy (and Beth, I am sure there is enuf work there for a crowd!) I am so glad you stepped up to the Herald. It has always been a favorite of mine for years, I read it AS SOON as it hits the table. I have submitted articles and been tickled to be printed, I save them all, I use the show results page to keep track of our ventures, and I have met a few new farms and learned a lot of new Fjord lore. BUT I did not at all receive the last issue (Spring) Catherine had to send us one from the left over pile. And I have not received this issue yet, I am totally disheartened. It is my hope that now that it is back in a Fjord-lover's hand, it will just get back to normal. And of course, thanks to the last two months fiasco, we have lost out on some good contacts I am sure as those are the prime issues for people breeding, I figure our ads were toast. All this proves is that our breed group is not large enuf yet to have the uber-glossy that some other breeds have (and I for one am glad, these mags are not REAL to many of their recipients). I will be happy to get an ultra-newsletter, that has pertinent info on board meetings, registry info, recent show results, upcoming events and some nice info stories, I will certainly try and support you in that. Keep it real and keep it timely and I will love you guys, but I noted it said interim (don't blame you guys, I have a full time job too and I don't know how you do it). So BOARD folks, let's make sure that the next editor has some equity and realizes that we want a timely, info-mercial for a bunch of fanatical fjord owners, not the situation we just got out of. THanks Marsha in VA where it is still near 80 degress at 0430 AM each morning and I am SICK of the humidity Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Be sure to read this! Vivian Creigh's post returned mail
This message is from: Jean Ernest [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: vivian creigh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 7:58:35 PM US/Eastern To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: GMHA Fjord brag! Excessively Long! I just returned from GMHA CDE. I showed a Prelim pair, four in the class, two WB pairs and another pony pair. Shiloh Simino showed her Hostar son in Training Single Horse and won dressage and was in first place after cones, today she must have had a good go as she stayed in first in a large competitive Horse class. She has been having a very successful year with her boy and I think we will be seeing a lot of her in the future. My Girls had the best dressage score all classes and divisions with 42 penalties, the next best score of the show was 55. They warmed up beautifully and were really good in the ring. I didn't even walk cones but was having so much fun driving the ponies that I was just giggling the whole round and only had one ball down. We ended Saturday 21 pts ahead of the second place pair of Gelderlanders driven by Peter Bravmann which is a name some of you old timers on the list will certainly recognize. Marathon today was certainly not my best effort. The Girls were not firing in and out of the hazards like they normally do and in the first hazard my reins were too long and I was definitely not on my game. Managed to get it together for the second hazard, the water, and had a decent go even with Nanja sucking back and being her normal weenie self. Thank you Nordy. In the third I took the short route to gate D between two trees and hit a large root hard bounced me straight out of my seat and I came back down on the side of the seat. OUCH! Thankfully my terrific navigator kept us upright and I managed to get back into the seat in time to make the turn. The rest went alright but not brilliant ponies were well ahead of time so we strolled into the finish all in good shape, although I'm sure I'll be sore tomorrow. We won the marathon 5pts ahead of the second place pair which put us 26 pts ahead of the others in our class. We had the only combined score under 100 penalty points of the entire show and had fun doing it. What made this all the sweeter was the fact that on Friday I was the test driver for a forum on what judges look for in dressage. Two licensed judges critiqued my test, I was driving a single, and the clinic participants got to ask questions about why they would award a certain score. The test was broken down into sections and I would drive several movement and then stop and tell the judges and participants what I thought was wrong and how I would score myself as I am also a licensed judge I lent perspective from the box seat. Both clinicians, Natasha Grigg and John Greenall felt the pony was not round enough in the first three movements and was poking her nose out above the vertical but was well engaged and just being evasive. A well known trainer from the New England area started to say that it was a breed related defect that prohibited Fjords from going correctly on the bit. I turned towards this gentleman and said Let's not even go there. He left shortly thereafter, I believe somewhat embarrassed as I corrected this flaw in subsequent movements and with Shiloh's and my stellar performance this weekend hopefully dispelled all notion that Fjords aren't every bit as capable as any other breed out there. After 17 years of hearing the same drivel regarding the Fjords capabilities it has become less grating and more amusing especially when I am lucky enough to put these notions firmly to rest with a great performance. Of course the next outing may not be as successful as I am dealing with two equine individuals who may or may not share my delusions of grandeur and except to savour my 15 minutes the slate will be wiped clean at our next outing. Tuesday I am off to The Netherlands for the 50th Jubileum of the Fjordhorse in Holland. My husband will be performing at the welcoming party and I am looking forward to seeing some old and dear friends. Also heard from a friend who was at the Pony Worlds in England that the Germans had a four in hand of Fjords on their team. Let's face it if the Germans thought enough of these ponies to put them on their team they must have been pretty good ponies! No breed prejudice just good well trained equine athletes doing their job Yeah!!! The single pony entry from Poland was a Haflinger not a Fjord and the front wheels were off the ground because marathon vehicles are as light as possible and when the groom sits back on the back step going uphill they tend to tip backwards. In the total scheme of things not a big deal. I'm off to the barn. Good times with these remarkably resilient ponies. Vivian Creigh
